Here's the thing, when poc have better representation in games then it'll be a nonissue.
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So square can make drastic changes to FF7 in the remake but couldn't be bothered to not make Barrett an ignorant racist caricature? (Read Threadmarks)
- Thread starter Chief Malik
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Don't like the idea of attacking a particular game of being racist when the real problem lies in the lack of other depictions. Especially one that have to maintain some level of consistency with the original, otherwise there's no point on having a remake. The black angry man should be portrayed as much as other traits so it loose the status of trope.
List the number of good Arab characters in video games vs stereotypical ones. It's a lopsided list towards the latter. It's not representation if all your inclusion of an underrepresented minority is is the bread and butter stereotype that has been prominent in that particular piece of media for decades.
You can also do aspects of the trait without the execution being problematic. Other media has done it. It is possible. And the solution is simple. Higher PoC writers. Get consultants. You shouldn't be making a big budget game without doing some due diligence.
Not framing the character around an outdated black stereotype is the answer.
I get why they didn't pull all the way back on it, but let's not get crazy here, Barrett is still Mr. T, a tired black american stereotype that people have been making fun of since the 80's. He always was.
Imagine if every white person in a video game was a hillbilly. Imagine if every asian person was Charlie Chan. Black people are still dealing with this poor ass representation all the time with little alternative. We get to be large loud angry black people or half robot with little except. Barrett is both.
User banned (permanent): troll account
If you think any black person that occasionally gets slightly angry is a racial stereotype, then are you saying no black character should ever be written to get angry, even if it's justified? People get angry, that's life. If anything, the people raging about it here look more intolerant than Square lol
Given it's a remake, what would you even want them to do about it? He's an important character with thoughtful writing, not some cheap throwaway character to appeal to racists.
Given it's a remake, what would you even want them to do about it? He's an important character with thoughtful writing, not some cheap throwaway character to appeal to racists.
I will at least give them credit for not making it seem weird that a black man has an adopted white daughter, and they show them having a loving relationship with none of the main characters or NPCs doing a double take. I have to worry about taking my white friend's daughter to the park without her.
Nothing I've said is off base. I'm just asking plain questions.
Tone down his angry black man shit is the obvious solution. Again, go back to the question I asked. Is that train scene an acceptable representation of black people? Explain to me why that scene is cool.
I've been cringing at Barret's voice direction and portrayal since the beginning. Sadly, I'm not sure people in charge give a shit.
After all, racism isn't the only problematic issue with this game. The game's loaded with garbage character tropes and clichés. Progress in any of these areas has been agonizingly slow coming, in the JRPG genre especially.
After all, racism isn't the only problematic issue with this game. The game's loaded with garbage character tropes and clichés. Progress in any of these areas has been agonizingly slow coming, in the JRPG genre especially.
Went back like ten pages. This is the scene with the Shinra employees, right? I dunno, I think that's a great character moment with Barret and it shows how deluded and self-serving Shinra is even down to its own employees. I think boiling it down to "white people scared of the big black man" really does it a disservice both to the scene and to Barret himself.
God, would it hurt some of you to at least read the things people are saying on here? If you are still stuck on surface level reads of "Angry is the bad" then you are mistaken and that's not the problem people are having.
Also the person who made the OP is black they know about real life as a black person. People criticizing it are not more "intolerant" than Square that's stupid as hell. Again, just because he has more characterization does not mean that the problematic nature of his portrayal is suddenly alright anymore than explaining that Powergirl is invulnerable makes her breasts being out okay. The Angry Black Man stereotype is not just reliant on being angry without reason.
What people want to be done is a better take on the idea without resorting to bad Mr. T impersonations.
My opinion as well.
I guess if you focus on only the "bad" parts then yeah this is an issue... however imo Barret has many facets, not only angry man.
People seem to be hanging on this "Black + anger is bad?" angle, ignoring the way he talks, and vocabulary. It's no coincidence that he says "Y'all's masters," "Them's fighting words," and such. Sure he has moments where he's not saying cringy stuff, but there's still cringe. Letitia the Trash Lady could have a hidden thoughtful and amazing turnaround in her speech and accent and story, but it won't make that Deus Ex video any easier to watch.
From
to (in a totally different accent that doesn't sound as exaggerated) Letitia, the lady with a sweet side, and tragic history that some people got attached to and really love.
From
to (in a totally different accent that doesn't sound as exaggerated) Letitia, the lady with a sweet side, and tragic history that some people got attached to and really love.
I see where OP is coming from and I agree, with the caveat that Barret outgrows much of that initial peception by the end of the game as he has more opportunities to show off his personality. He's at once a stereotype and also the most conscious person about social issues and environmentalism in the game. It's an interesting dichotomy for sure. I think for many people, the latter far outweighs the former in how they perceive him, but it's absolutely valid to call him a negative outdated stereotype. It's also true that he wouldn't be Barrett if they hadn't made him a Mr T clone, as the nostalgia factor is insanely high among the game's target demographic. Does that excuse them for keeping him as The Angry Black Man and The Scary Black Man tropes? No. This also, however, presents an opportunity. Given what happens later, it's entirely possible to grow his character completely out of his stereotype to fully become Barrett, the kind father, leader, and socially conscious man, instead of what we initially see him as, angry Mr T with a big gun. I think he's pretty complex as applied to the modern social context.
Many already gave their interpretations of that scene in the thread that don't see it as problematic.
I agree that the portrayal of Barret is problematic and should have been handled differently, but if anything that particular scene actually dealt with that problem of how people perceive him despite him being an extremely positive figure that is passionate about a good cause.
They could probably work on the execution. I feel that you could make his character bitter without making him angry.
For example, wanting revenge on Shinra = bitter. Cursing and yelling into a walkie talkie because they said something bad about you = angry. I haven't played OG FFVII (although I have read a few things about his character), but I didn't feel as if his anger really had much purpose but to juxtapose his softer side from what I played in the remake.
He's not a Mr.T clone in every localization though. Just like Sazh script and voice work is apparently well done in the US, but seem to be cringy in the Japan version.
User banned (1 Month): Drive-by post in a sensitive thread. Dismissing concerns around racism. Account in junior phase.
I agree OP, Barret is a pretty great character.
Nothing in that scene does Barret any favours. They don't see any of Barret's point in part because Barret barely makes a point. They are literally afraid of him because he is doing this stupid angry black man bullshit. You've got white lady clutching her pearls in fear of angry black man in literal fucking high definition. It's embarassing and degrading.
Oh damn, did they actually fix her in the rerelease?People seem to be hanging on this "Black + anger is bad?" angle, ignoring the way he talks, and vocabulary. It's no coincidence that he says "Y'all's masters," "Them's fighting words," and such. Sure he has moments where he's not saying cringy stuff, but there's still cringe. Letitia the Trash Lady could have a hidden thoughtful and amazing turnaround in her speech and accent and story, but it won't make that Deus Ex video any easier to watch.
From
to (in a totally different accent that doesn't sound as exaggerated) Letitia, the lady with a sweet side, and tragic history that some people got attached to and really love.
The sad thing is right after this, Cloud and Barret speak and Barret shows empathy and compassion to those who have no choice but to live in the slums and tries to explain this to Cloud. It is basically a 180 to this conversation.
Also fuck the clapping, god I hate Shinra lulz.
It's a 19 page thread and 4 people addressed it and your interpretation (which I read but ignored because frankly I'ma get myself banned if I say what I actually think) takes massive leaps in logic to get to where you got.
Bullshit. I'm sorry. My guy is fucking snarling and using intimidation on people to attempt to make a point. The peoole perceive him as angry black man because thats what the fuck he is doing there. It has nothing to do with "where he is from". Motherfucker used "yalls mastas" and "thems fighting words", stands over them for pure intimidation and kicks a fucking bench. Stop.
The "white lady" that is working for the corporation that is literal evil and are clearly the antagonists in the game. They NEED to react that way to show the class difference, I already said this, their reaction IS racist/classist, but to us, the viewers of that scene it is clear that Barret is the good guy, and it is clear that we should dislike the Shinra employees because they are going against his noble cause.
Again, yes , I agree that his portrayal in this game has a lot of problems that could have been easily solved, which makes it even more baffling, since for the most part, the character is written really good, if we remove the stereotypes. But this scene is the least of the problems with Barret.
Alright, guess I'm wrong then, sorry if I said anything that offended you.
But...the point is that they would never see Barret's point. They're deluded and insanely privileged and jerking themselves off about how civilized they are while standing on the heads of those they oppress and draining their planet dry. It's extreme classism. Barret being the one to confront them makes the scene better, because while they've lived a life of luxury, Barret lives in a world where he needs a fucking GUN for a hand. While they talk about the hardships they have to endure for their ideals while wearing these three-piece business suits, Barret is literally scarred from ACTUALLY, PHYSICALLY fighting for what he believes in. They are destroying the world and hurting everyone in it and are deluded enough to think that what they're doing is good and just, even when the truth, a person born and raised in the hell THEY'VE created and actively maintain, is staring them right in the face.
It's a scene that doesn't even make any sense, Barrett literally is a terriorist on the run, why would he make a big scene and draw attention to himself? That's why I don't get the arguement that "so you can't have a black character show any anger, that's ridiculous" because we all know it's not just any anger, it's the way they write the anger. It's cartoonish, with stereotypical phrasing, overemphasised gestures and shows the character having complete lack of awareness of surroundings and how other characters react to him, examples being Jesse and Cloud rolling their eyes at him and the Shinra employees on the train. It's not well written anger and seems mainly to be there for comic relief. Like I just don't think a white character would have their anger portrayed this way especially when there's actually legitimate grievences like with Barrett deeply caring about the planet getting destroyed. If it was a white character he'd only blow up when he keeps getting pushed to the edge or have a gruff, silent exterior, there would be nowhere near the same amount of yelling and gestating. That's way it seems childish, it comes off more as a toddler having a temper tantrum then it does how adults actually show their anger.
i mean the idea that Barrett can't see reason is undeniably false.
His character oscillates between self-awareness and complete and utter stupidity. If the point was to show him growing as a leader, it needed to be done gradually over the course of the game, and yet as late as Chapter 16, he shows complete stupidity when they talk about infiltrating Shinra HQ. It was just handled poorly. And that's not mentioning his vernacular and mannerisms. And those demonstrations of self-awareness just make it all the worse that they still had this other shit in there.
He has to make a point for that to be effectively conveyed. Does everyone forget Barret, Cloud and company just blew up a fucking reactor a few hours before? Because that's where that discussion starts. There is no nuance to that scene because they haven't said anything wrong up until that point.
I get what the scene is trying to do but it doesn't achieve it at all. And besides that fact, do not use angry black man actively usimg intimidation on innocent naive well to do spoken white people to do it. Its a fucking harmful stereotype. That's the whole fucking point of this thread. This stereotype is BAD. This scene reinforces BAD harmful regressive views on black people.
So for one, all this stuff about Barret is not known and reinforced by this point in the game. And two, this scene can only work if Barret is not literally proving the harmful stereotypes true. Here are the harful stereotypes.
1. Woman says she cant see him as a law abiding citizen. This is a stereotype. Our dude just blew up a reactor hours before. He IS a criminal. This stereotype is now proven true
2. Black people are scary. Barret is using physical intimidation on these people. They are afraid of him from the second he engages them because he wants them to be.
3. Angry black man with the a short temper. My dude kicks a fucking bench. My dude talking bout "your masters".
Like this is what you guys are calling a great scene. Is this how we are viewing good depictions of black people?
You cant think of a way Barret can engage these people without playing hard on all these stereotypes? That scene is awful.
There's another aspect, in the original
Barett has a personal grudge against Shinra because he blames them (and himself) for what happened to Dyne. I don't think his crusade is just for the planet.
If barrett's point is so good he wouldn't need to get all in there face about it the way he did. Hell they should be angry at him cuz they couldn't counter his argument.
Kinda hard for that when everyone but them is sucking off the teat of Shinra's Lies/Proproganda
And he of all people should understand that, instead of engaging his point they run off cuz he's yellin and kickin shit
Had he talked to them like he did cloud right after, there'd be no issue
No one said that the scene is great, I said multiple times that the execution is sloppy and agreed with all of the sentiments of Barret being acted out as a stereotype.
I just wanted to say that the scene gets misinterpreted as them trying to show Barret as "angry black dude who is violent towards white people" when that CLEARLY wasn't the goal. Yes, they could have handled it better, but it is not hard to see where they were going. No one praised the depiction of Barret in this scene, people just gave their valid interpretations of the scene itself.
Again, I feel like I always need to end my posts by saying that I do agree with Barret being negatively stereotyped and that they should have done a better job, even with this scene.
Oh yeah, being calm instead of thrashing like a boar about it def would've helped no lie
The ban note on this one is interesting. I thought Banned (duration) was coded into the note, but this suggests otherwise. Do you mods really have to put in the banned/warned and duration in manually every time?
Barret loses the train scene. I laughed when the Shinra employees starting clapping but then they get the last word and show bravery in confrontation. Barret's intimidation doesn't even work.
From literally this page:
But anyway
It's not a misinterpretation. That's literally what the scene is showing. Just so we can get this straight, I don't think any of us here are dumb enough to think that this is what the creators were attempting to portray. I don't think anyone is implying this was malicious. No one thinks this was the goal lol. But regardless, what that scene shows is peak angry black dude stereotype and peak "these white people are scared of his angry blackness and hell they should be".
Now speaking for just me. That scene is degrading. I don't like it. I find it extremely problematic. Genuinely don't care what they were trying to do, what they produced was extremely off the mark and I'm expressing that.
Which I think is good. I'm not trying to be obnoxious but so many of the posts in this thread ignore the main issue. Barret can be a great character and still be problematic in his depiction. I like Barret in the OG FF7. This was never about the character being good or bad as far as the story and their arc is concerned.
I never knew about the two tropey stereotypes (angry/scary black man) being a thing, but after learning this and thinking about them now, I see them everywhere, wow.
Still impressed and somewhat disappointed by the amount of fellow white people telling others what to be offended about though, even on Era.
Still impressed and somewhat disappointed by the amount of fellow white people telling others what to be offended about though, even on Era.
Yeah. It really fucked me off, that they didn't fix this bullshit.
Barret is not a Mr T clone in the original Japanese FFVII. That was entirely an English translation creation.
In Japanese. He apparently talks and carries himself like Solid Snake.
However because of the English fuckery. He's disgusting racist caricature has carried over to every subsequent piece of FFVII media. I hate it.
They had a chance to set things right with this (re)make. But didn't.
Yeah, no.
Barret is not a Mr T clone in the original Japanese FFVII. That was entirely an English translation creation.
In Japanese. He apparently talks and carries himself like Solid Snake.
However because of the English fuckery. He's disgusting racist caricature has carried over to every subsequent piece of FFVII media. I hate it.
They had a chance to set things right with this (re)make. But didn't.
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You're joking right? As if having a good point is ever enough. I think the scene has problems but "It makes no sense, he had a good point so they should have listened politely and then been angry at their inability to refute it" is not one of them (and would have been a more ludicrous fiction than anything in the game)
