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So square can make drastic changes to FF7 in the remake but couldn't be bothered to not make Barrett an ignorant racist caricature? (Read Threadmarks)
- Thread starter Chief Malik
- Start date
Having a character begin their arc as a racist stereotype and then "develop" into no longer being that racist stereotype is still a very harmful use of racist stereotypes.
Are you genuinely arguing that stereotypical characters don't have character arcs?
User banned (2 weeks): Mod-whining, dismissive trolling.
Was going to comment but just saw the staff communication about having to agree with the OP and ignore his very clearly protrayed reasons for being like he is. Well, on to another thread it is, bye.
what gets me the most about the message is, for people who state they are black and have No problem with it, will they be banned? Like that makes no sense at all, why would one view point trump the other just because it's Not agreeing with the mods opinions?
just further hits home the point that of that if you don't hold the same view as the moderators youll be shown the door.
that's for another thread I feel, there's a real need for a discussion about the moderation on this forum.
Sorry to derail.
Personally, as a black man who grew up in the South, what I was mostly annoyed with when it comes to his character was how stupid, off putting and "weird" they made him seem at times. The part with him in the elevator had Jessie and Cloud being distant from how he reacted, how he appeared to be stupid at times, just stuff like that really made me think "man not dude." That stuff seemed lame. With that said, I felt the same way for Wedge too. I got tired of the "lovable fat guy who likes to eat and gets into embarrassing situations" stereotype for him too.
Haven't finished the game yet so maybe those change but still. Still love the game, give it a 100 in my eyes but those just stuck out to me.
Either way I'm outty this thread since I've said my opinion on things. Yall be good.
Haven't finished the game yet so maybe those change but still. Still love the game, give it a 100 in my eyes but those just stuck out to me.
Either way I'm outty this thread since I've said my opinion on things. Yall be good.
What is it about his Japanese voice acting that's bad? I played XIII with Japanese voice acting on, but haven't played since 2010.
Has every POC who disagreed with the OP been banned ITT. Yes or no?
This may be sounds shocking. BUT there is a way to disagree without being dismissive.
That's a shame. It's been a while since I played XIII, but I remember him and Fang being the only sort of likable characters
I didn't realize this is what it was until you said it. Spot on. The voice and presentation have major issues even if the character does have a cool arc.
probably not before the message went up, I haven't gone through and asked for everyone's papers, but it's a genuine question, the thoughts are clear "dismissing concerns will be subject to moderation" so would that lead to someone of colour being banned or not? Or is it only if you're white?
Dude, honestly what was the point of coming in to say this shit?
All the stupid "comedy noises" he makes and shit. He's treated like an absolute caricature in most scenes, and they play him up as a coward and a wimp way more than the English script does. His English voice actor places a lot more emphasis on the family man part of the character, and on the fact that Sazh is really the only normal person in a group full of weirdos and assholes.
It's hard to really explain it without LISTENING to it, but I found it instantly offputting and upsetting when I was playing my Japanese copy of the game before it came out in the US. I remember feeling like "this is the first time we've had a black man in Final Fantasy in a decade and he's acting and talking like THIS?"
Let me preface this by saying I wasn't happy about his portrayal but I wasn't happy about it in the original. They changed plot elements not characters traits. He's a fuggin joke, but he was in the original. We're talking about a game with homosexual and transsexual being portrayed in questionable ways. Barret sucks, especially now I know that his name was really supposed to be "bullet". Really? Y'all gonna name this nigga bullet?
Yeah if you can't comment without dismissing the OP's concerns, that's definitely the smart way to go.
There is a way to disagree with the premise of a heated topic without being overly dismissive of the concerns presented in said topic. That's what a discussion is.
Yeah no shit
I'm wondering if he changed his tune after he sees how the character is used in that scene. As I understand it big budget games like this the actors don't always know the context in the scene they're in.
Because I can't say anything else as was warned by the staff?
Have you finished the game? I think he came off like a caricature at the start, but I think the back half of the game did a lot to humanize him and expand on his character to make him a lot more nuanced. I guess it doesn't excuse the bad parts of his portrayal but he honestly was maybe my favourite character at the end of the game even though he started out as my least favourite character because of the tropes you mentioned
The way games like this are recorded is that they watch the cutscenes and dub over them, so he was definitely shown this scene in fall, albeit unfinished in some way or another.
Disagreeing with the stance of a topic is not the same as dismissing concerns others may have with that topic.
Like the answer is dont be that person that says people are making shit up or are the real racists and you'll be fine.
This isn't hard. The thread is light on bans.
Thanks for having the courage to create this thread OP.
I feel that squares continuation of this racist stereotype is even more egregious considering that they've had 23 years to get it correct. Since most final fantasy fans are aware that her Barrett's original English translation had mostly to do with localization, they should have fixed Barrett's portrayal by adding some nuance to the character.
As others have said in the black culture community thread, it's as if Squeenix saw RDJ In tropic thunder then said, yeah, that's it!
Barret is doubly problematic because he Not only plays up the angry black man with limited vocabulary who on occasion has something intelligent to say stereotype, but he's is false representation of the entire race because he's the only one. So He's not only a stereotype, but a token.
It's unfortunate because his actual design? His art direction? Totally on point. I love that they added the sunglasses and eliminated the Luke Cage metal rib cage, an indication that the art team at square does understand nuance rather than taking the cultural cues and inspirations literally. Now only if the writing team and voice acting directors could do the same.
I feel that squares continuation of this racist stereotype is even more egregious considering that they've had 23 years to get it correct. Since most final fantasy fans are aware that her Barrett's original English translation had mostly to do with localization, they should have fixed Barrett's portrayal by adding some nuance to the character.
As others have said in the black culture community thread, it's as if Squeenix saw RDJ In tropic thunder then said, yeah, that's it!
Barret is doubly problematic because he Not only plays up the angry black man with limited vocabulary who on occasion has something intelligent to say stereotype, but he's is false representation of the entire race because he's the only one. So He's not only a stereotype, but a token.
It's unfortunate because his actual design? His art direction? Totally on point. I love that they added the sunglasses and eliminated the Luke Cage metal rib cage, an indication that the art team at square does understand nuance rather than taking the cultural cues and inspirations literally. Now only if the writing team and voice acting directors could do the same.
You can have a conversation without dismissing a POC's view on the subject. From your post, It sounds like you had a problematic point to make and still needed to get in a word without having to fully expose yourself.
Damn, too late to get a reply. But honestly people, don't come into a thread when it comes to a minority expressing concern for how they feel about portrayals just to whine that you can't express your outdated, problematic opinions.
Jesus, man. There's a way to disagree without being dismissive
I just checked after responding to you and yeah, he's a lot...I don't know...louder than he is English. Also some of the words and grammar he uses makes him seem like a goof ball, even in some of the more serious scenes. This does remind me how much I like his English voice acting though. Has a lot of soul in the literally sense compared to the other characters.
Dude, it's a fucking baby chicken. Saying Chocobos (ESPECIALLY their FFXIII design) look like chickens isn't a hot take. These design choices are something I might myself write off if Sazh wasn't token in the game but it isn't the case.
This 100%. Very disappointed to see some of the replies in this thread. And the fact that there isn't more noise outside of this thread(especially in games's midia)around this issue shows the industry still has a long road towards inclusivity and representation.
Raising concerns =/= Raising Dissmisive concerns, dissmisive being the key word in the mod message. Plenty of people disagreed with OP and didn't get banned, why? because they weren't dismissive.
Learn to read.
I love Sazh's English voice actor. He's honestly the best part of that game. He's nice to listen to, you get EVERY aspect of his personality, and you can really feel it when he's getting tired of the shit Lightning and the others are putting him through. It's such a shame Toriyama and Square had no idea what to with him.
No we fucking don't.
they have no business making black characters if there to lazy to do the legwork.
Jfc
That maybe the way things would work normally but moderation here is on a hair trigger and previous moderation shows that even speaking against such a thing is dismissive and once that phrase has been added to a thread any other viewpoint is nullified and you're gone for however long the mods deem necessary.
That's why I asked my original question.
I've seen this come up quite a bit, Sazh's depiction in the Japanese version of the game is not good to say the least. He also has a chicken that lives in his hair. Despite the maturity the character exhibits in the English version of the game, it's still weird as hell.
Funny enough, that's not the only issue I have with that scene. Dude has a fucking minigun for an arm. Honestly, I would be scared of just that. Why is that these main characters dress like they're going to a convention, but everyone else is so... normal?
EDIT: typos
See my post above, it almost varies on the mod that sees the posts, maybe they just haven't got round to banning people yet who knows. You get so much varying degrees of what "dismissive" means that it's hard to understand which is why I asked.
As I said I think a Very real conversation needs to be had about moderation here, but I don't wish to derail the thread anymore so I'll leave it there.
Reiteration of the staff post
No. We are not doing this today.
The use of racial stereotypes in media is not okay. They do not disappear or become okay just because you give a character imbued with stereotypes a character arc.
This does not mean you cannot like a character that is stereotypical or problematic in some way. It is practically an inevitability of engaging in media created in a world perpetually informed by racism. You can discuss whether or not you think Barrett supersedes his stereotyping, the differences between his old and new characterization, how certain scenes in the games portray him and relate back to those stereotypes, how the voice actor's thought process relates to this, SE's treatment of minority characters as a whole, etc.. This is all valid discussion.
What you cannot do, and will not do so long as this thread is allowed to remain open, is insinuate that people who still have a problem with Barrett despite his characterization are the real racists, or are not black, or try to dismiss or downplay anyone's feelings regarding the stereotypes themselves just because you like Barrett.
The staff post will stand. Discussion will continue on. If you've got any complaints from this point forth, PM them directly to me or other administrators. Do not derail the thread with meta commentary and complaining about moderation, especially since the fact that a lot of you are even still have accounts with how awfully you've approached the subject is a personal blessing by me.
Now enough.
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Jeesie goes to her home in body armor, and her mom is still convinced that she is just in a theater group. The game in general has no idea how to have people with weapons interact with its world. Suspension of disbelief I guess, but it's really strange
There's a difference between posting "yes he begins as a stereotype, but there's also story points x, y, and z which I feel is positive representation too", and "he changes throughout the game so it's not a stereotype". I've seen a number of both types of posts. I haven't been paying attention to who got banned for what, but I would hope nobody is getting banned for the first unless they are really dismissing the racial stereotypes present.
Doesn't Wedge have a fucking GRENADE LAUNCHER strapped to his back when they go inside, too?
Wearing a literal grenade belt and her mom is more concerned with making him more pizza.
I played the game in French and he was still the same angry Barrett, but not specifically coded as black. (Unless I missed out on something cause it is my third language) So, I was surprised when I first heard the English localization. That is a racist caricature.
I played the original years ago in English but don't remember much of it. But I did come across Tim Roger's slow translation on YouTube. He argues that the translation does Barrett a disservice: in the original Japanese, he just comes across as a big brother tough guy; in English, he's very much an angry black man.
The few Japanese clips I've seen, Barrett does sound like a tough guy, but he's never coded as black.
What I'm saying is that I never realized Barrett could be problematic until I saw the English. Is the problem that he's coded as black in English whereas he isn't in the two other languages I've experienced it?
I played the original years ago in English but don't remember much of it. But I did come across Tim Roger's slow translation on YouTube. He argues that the translation does Barrett a disservice: in the original Japanese, he just comes across as a big brother tough guy; in English, he's very much an angry black man.
The few Japanese clips I've seen, Barrett does sound like a tough guy, but he's never coded as black.
What I'm saying is that I never realized Barrett could be problematic until I saw the English. Is the problem that he's coded as black in English whereas he isn't in the two other languages I've experienced it?
got to be packing heat to survive the rough Slums life
(yeah it's quite ridiculous. just need to be able to ignore those things)
This is wrong. He's depicted as intimidating to the folks on the train and in that shines building. OP said ignorant and that means dumb. That's how blacks are often portrayed in media. "Ain't nobody got time for that!, P.O.P.! Hold it down" (if you somehow don't know what those are YouTube the names). He's being depicted as a dumb, over aggressive, black man like in the original. It was offensive to 15 yo me way back when, but I'm kinda over it now but it's not any better in the remake.
idk, there was a post in the second page which was absolutely the first type, and they still got banned. I'd link it but I dunno if that's ban worthy or not lol.
It's disappointing to hear that apparently Sazh is really problematic in the Japanese version. I really liked the character's English portrayal, even though I agree the chocobo in the fro is weird.
I think at some point, we need to have a discussion about how black people are often portrayed worse in media created by other non-white people than in that created by white people. Same goes for how real-life black people are treated by other non-white people. It could be that white people, especially in America, are far more accustomed to racial matters, and so are more likely to be sensitive to the many issues black people have with our portrayal in media. Or maybe Japan is just uniquely backwards. But I doubt it's the latter. They aren't strangers to black folk. I won't give them that excuse.
Got to say thinking on it while I do like Barret that train scene rubbed me in a very very wrong way, same with his whole "Take the load off ya shoulders" line. I just wish that SE knew that while yeah Barret is supposed to be an over the top Charismatic leader they could had done it better and a great deal less racist then that train scene we got.