I feel the same way. They should've toned down the angry, Mr. T voice and made him be a normal person who got angry at times due to his situation. It's a shame because I think Barret is the best character in the game. And as always, you'll have the I didn't see anything wrong with it crowd because of course, it doesn't affect them and the cycle will continue.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
So square can make drastic changes to FF7 in the remake but couldn't be bothered to not make Barrett an ignorant racist caricature? (Read Threadmarks)
- Thread starter Chief Malik
- Start date
But the post you've quoted doesn't disprove my interpretation? I'm not trying to downplay your experiences, far from it, please believe me, but, the entire point of the scene seems to be to show how unfairly people will look at Barret because of the power relationships in the world. I've explained it already in my post you quoted but maybe I was not clear, enough, sorry about that.
But what i got from it is basically what you are saying. I felt for Barret because even though he is right in that scene, it would not seem like that to a bystander because he is dealing with upper class people that work for a giant corporation. But to us, as players, it is clear that he IS right. It just shows the injustice. basically, the thing you have lived, those people in the train ARE racist, but that is the point of the scene
Again, I agree with the statement that the portrayal of Barret is problematic despite the great characterization, but I feel like this scene gets misinterpreted.
holy fuck this is awful. mammy levels.
And as for barrett yeah it was pretty bad I kind of see they had him like Mr. T. still really doesn't make it right. it would have been great for them to remake his image a bit. but pretty much they went with mr t.
He's def súper over the top. In ways I get it because it def sounds like his old text boxes would sound that way if spoken. I get the issue this thread presents, even if overall I'm enjoying Barret in the game as a whole.
I think I'd cry a little if an FF game had an obvious Latino in the game and they had him(or her) speaking like that one actor they cast for just every every mexican gangster in Cali in movies.
I think I'd cry a little if an FF game had an obvious Latino in the game and they had him(or her) speaking like that one actor they cast for just every every mexican gangster in Cali in movies.
@Abdul Malik Ka'bah, I have a feeling you may be seeing more pushback than usual because your thread title kind of reads as "Barret, the character itself, is ignorant and racist (presumably against whites)", rather than "Barret's portrayal comes from an ignorant and racist place".
On topic, it's undeniably true that Barret remains in many regards pretty much his old large, muscular, imposing, problematic self. The Mako Reactor bombing mission in particular make an awful first impression of him; he behaves like an angry, rude idiot for the most part. From watching videos of further into the game, he seems to mellow out considerably, but I haven't seen much of him later on (didn't want to spoil the whole game, which I guess I'll get to play at some point) so I don't know if the improvement sticks or not. At the very least, I appreciate that when he takes his sunglasses on, he has a much kinder, reassuring, downright fatherly face than you would expect (and quite handsome at that!). Even his demeanor changes, which, if I were so generously inclined, would even think is meta-comentary on not judging by appearances.
On topic, it's undeniably true that Barret remains in many regards pretty much his old large, muscular, imposing, problematic self. The Mako Reactor bombing mission in particular make an awful first impression of him; he behaves like an angry, rude idiot for the most part. From watching videos of further into the game, he seems to mellow out considerably, but I haven't seen much of him later on (didn't want to spoil the whole game, which I guess I'll get to play at some point) so I don't know if the improvement sticks or not. At the very least, I appreciate that when he takes his sunglasses on, he has a much kinder, reassuring, downright fatherly face than you would expect (and quite handsome at that!). Even his demeanor changes, which, if I were so generously inclined, would even think is meta-comentary on not judging by appearances.
Yeah it's kinda odd, especially considering how great of a character Sazh is. Sadly, I fear that if SE changed Barrett, fans would only complain more.
I just think for most white people it's a hard concept to understand because unless your from the Deep South, it's pretty hard to make caricatures of how you speak: your dialect etc. so people may look and say I don't see what's wrong with it, but then nobody played your voice for laughs for decades in media also
So, I'm White. That means, when I view the character, I view it through the lens of decades, for me, and centuries, for US culture, of impressions. While there may be elements of Barret's story that are sympathetic and developmental, that doesn't excuse the elements of the delivery that are problematic. Liking the character and the game doesn't make me a bad person, but when a POC tells me "hey, this shit is a little fucked up," if my response is "nuh uh, 'cause I think he's cool," I'm being an ass hole.
I know I'm not making too much of a point in the discussion, but I've learned that when a topic of problematic minority representation comes around, it's more important to listen and be informed then to just flat out reject the complaints. Typically, by listening, I can become more informed and more aware of that issue in the future so it better frames the media I consume. Barret has some elements that are racist. That sucks, and SE should work to do better in the future to avoid racist tropes seeping into their story telling.
Some of the responses in here make me SMH. You're not a bad person for liking a game, or a character, with problematic elements. However, you are an ignorant person if somebody who's impacted by poor representation states "this is a problem" and you refuse to listen.
I know I'm not making too much of a point in the discussion, but I've learned that when a topic of problematic minority representation comes around, it's more important to listen and be informed then to just flat out reject the complaints. Typically, by listening, I can become more informed and more aware of that issue in the future so it better frames the media I consume. Barret has some elements that are racist. That sucks, and SE should work to do better in the future to avoid racist tropes seeping into their story telling.
Some of the responses in here make me SMH. You're not a bad person for liking a game, or a character, with problematic elements. However, you are an ignorant person if somebody who's impacted by poor representation states "this is a problem" and you refuse to listen.
It's quite clearly a racist depiction of a black man and it's fucking bizarre that anyone is arguing otherwise. I like Barrett, I like his character arc, but you can like him and still acknowledge the problematic elements that are there.
I loooooooooooove Barrett in this game. With that said, I do think that the reaction is that there are multiple tropes going on at once, which compounds it. I don't think it's only angry black man trope. I think it's part that, but also part military leader/inspirational guy trope so everything he says comes off that way. And then it's the FIGHTER outside and gentle lover at home trope.
etc
etc
Fair enough, maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention. I just remember it being called out, and SE basically brushing it off, and then it seemed to die down. Their statement was even horrible (unless they came out with a better one later).
I don't think that scene is meant to be about racism. Maybe as an unfortunate implication it does. Of course racism isn't one of themes of FFVII, maybe there's a few moments of racism about the Cetra but I don't think it's that scene which is also in the original where Barret is even more OTT.
User Banned (1 Month): Inflammatory accusations against another member in order to dismiss concerns of racist stereotypes
I'm black and I think Barrett was the most well-written, human character in the game. Sure, in Japanese media they tend to go for the 'intimidating' or 'goofy' roles for black people but that doesn't mean they're trying to be racist. I mean, the guys at square responsible for writing these characters are japanese people with almost no knowledge of black people/culture, so you kinda have to expect these types of things. Taking offense to it is incredibly soft and silly.
If anything, OP comes across as a non colored person who has absolutely no clue what's racist to minorities or what's not.
If anything, OP comes across as a non colored person who has absolutely no clue what's racist to minorities or what's not.
Ah yes, Sazh, the black man depicted with an afro, two hand guns and the FF visual equivalent of a chicken.
OP
OP
Hmmmm, I'll have to play it myself and come back to this. If it's really bad, maybe I'll go Japanese VO.
You still enjoyed the game broski?
Racist stereotypes continue to propagate for various reasons. Among them, people for some reason finding them compelling, and dismissing the concerns of others. The fact that so many people in this thread are so quick to handwave the caricature is a glimpse into the current state of institutional racism. There's some mistaken understanding of "This is how black people are. How would I even know he's black if he didn't have relics of a southern accent?"
It seems more backwards than I would hope. Like, even Mr. T doesn't wear the gold chains anymore. It's weird to think that a long, long time ago, he was a progressive view of a black man, and that much of his persona was invented very intentionally to combat racist ideas. He took the name "Mister" because he was tired of being called "Boy." It's just fifty years later now. Gotta keep moving.
It seems more backwards than I would hope. Like, even Mr. T doesn't wear the gold chains anymore. It's weird to think that a long, long time ago, he was a progressive view of a black man, and that much of his persona was invented very intentionally to combat racist ideas. He took the name "Mister" because he was tired of being called "Boy." It's just fifty years later now. Gotta keep moving.
Your not getting it. I can be a angry, Denzel Washington can be angry, Obama can be angry, but we don't sound like Mr T jive talking and using 70's slang. It's how it's portrayed. It's portrayed from a stereotypical standpoint. I haven't met a single person in my 30 years as a black man who sounds like Barrett. None of the other main characters has an over the top performance like that
Kratos in GOW 2018 is performed by a black guy. And that character is always angry. Does he sound like Mr T?
Maybe read just a page of the thread before asking something this basic
No, all of that is 100% accurate to Sazh. The chocobo lives inside of his afro. It's absurd.
The sad part is, despite being a ridiculous racist caricature design-wise, Sazh is the most likeable and human member of the FFXIII cast by a wide margin. That's how embarrassing FFXIII is.
Yeah his VA is over the top sometimes where it feels like it's a white person trying to play how they think a black person sounds, and it's kinda cringey.
But I feel like SE did the same thing in FFXIII, if I'm remembering correctly?
But I feel like SE did the same thing in FFXIII, if I'm remembering correctly?
Dead serious. These things tend to stick out more when your franchise has only two prominent black men in it.
Quarantine boredom was not a good enough excuse for me to start posting here again.
Jesus Christ, everything about this post.
The voice actor specifically addresses some of the problems, and how he wanted to avoid stereotyping and caricaturing in his performance:
Hardly absolves some of the writing/direction choices or resolves the criticisms, but it's worth a listen to for some context from his perspective as a PoC.
I empathize with the difficulties he faced in wanting to portray a much broader character than the original while still being relatively faithful, and it sounds like he had more agency in some performance choices than simply acquiescing to direction.
Hardly absolves some of the writing/direction choices or resolves the criticisms, but it's worth a listen to for some context from his perspective as a PoC.
I empathize with the difficulties he faced in wanting to portray a much broader character than the original while still being relatively faithful, and it sounds like he had more agency in some performance choices than simply acquiescing to direction.
I've read multiple pages of it and I'm trying to discuss it.
You're not discussing anything. You asked an already dumb question that's been answered several times.
I can see how the combination of all the stereotypes could be considered not just a coincidence.
Sazh was a complete accident only saved by good English voice direction and acting on his part in XIII (his Japanese voice leans so heavily on "dumb and goofy comic relief" so hard) and they end up doing him so fucking dirty in the sequels.
Who gives a fuck that trope is positive? I guess I do? Here are some other "positive" tropes on the site.
Bald, Black Leader Guy: The man in charge is bald and black.
Black and Nerdy: A black character is also very smart to a nerdy degree.
Soul Brotha: A black character who is amazingly cool, always calm and in general "groovy."
Wow, he can't be bald, smart, or cool and calm. What can he even be? Someone in this very thread said he should be more like Dutch from Black Lagoon, the more positive trope right? But that would fall under Bald, Black Leader Guy - no one even fucking noticed. And I've already posted a slew of other stereotypes from the same site that he could fall within - in my post where I said that he to me transcends all of them, as well as his earlier depictions in the remake. It's why I said I applaud them because it doesn't seem like they're shying away from what they created - they've made him more than just that.
The Kingdom come stuff? I got asked for receipts, and I gave them - that's it.
Best of all, the events in the game justify Barrett's actions and mannerisms - even the main character doesn't buy into what he's saying until later in the game. We know he's spitting truth against a world that doesn't care to listen. That's just angry black man? Naaaah, I hate how you guys see a black man leading the charge as just an angry nigga but I'm of the opinion that there is no immaculate creation - especially when you consider the issues Asian media has in creating black characters. I think they've improved on the initial creation in spite of his flaws as a character and elevated him - and that's great! Progress!
@TinyHipster, don't worry man I won't @ you for not being black here I appreciate what you're saying and I understand it. But looking at the tropes provided I genuinely think that if you were to somehow miraculously avoid using ALL of the tropes there - bam you've now made Black characters even narrower. I had a better response but I accidentally deleted the wrong tab. You know what I felt through his character, aside from the empathy he shows and his realer moments? It's that maybe you should actually listen to the angry black dude - because he's speaking facts. We're always walking on eggshells to make sure that our arguments are heard but toe the line to make sure that it's palatable for the wider society, that we don't lose our cool for fear of the message being lost. That's why I love his character. I can think of a multitude of "angry white dudes" running the show in games but they're not just whittled down to the bone with that, motivations are considered there, why not here?
K.Jack, I don't think you have to agree - I'm just passionately defending my position on this - I went back to read some of his old dialogue and he already spoke in broken english/ebonics. Aside from straight up making him speak patois or the queen's there wasn't much wiggle room - so instead they've broadened his character whilst retaining his flaws. Admirable. I don't think of him as an ignorant, racist caricature.
Anyway, I just posted because as soon as I saw the Tvtropes link, I read through the index and I read through the actual pages and man... Did you guys actually click the links? That ain't it.
Guess I'll go watch this Coonskin film and see if I'm worth listening to or not.
The train scenes are definitely the worst parts where yeah he's depicted as the loud angry can't keep his cool black man, even if it's kinda like that in the original also it still sucks.
His preacher like demeanor is... something.. but obviously intentional to show how passionate he is but also i found it the game eventually showing that he is putting up a front to who he really is, to bring about a more important cause and this was kind of shown in a later character interaction. But if you've played the original you know his character growth is only just starting and we get glimpses if that and imo a better way than the original so I'm expecting things will be better in the next game especially.
personally as black male i did like his characters slow stead growth and the way he opens up and steps away from the front he puts on and i didn't mind his voice actor who i also know is black but that's probably also because 1)It could've been a lot more jarring and problematic and i tend to expect the absolute worst 2) with the source material i knew what i was getting into which isn't a good excuse honestly i guess I'm just numb to these depictions especially from video games *sigh*, 3) he does get better as the game goes on. I hope they jus keep improving his character for the better. Cause he's great so far especially with how he cares for his team and especially Marlene.
His preacher like demeanor is... something.. but obviously intentional to show how passionate he is but also i found it the game eventually showing that he is putting up a front to who he really is, to bring about a more important cause and this was kind of shown in a later character interaction. But if you've played the original you know his character growth is only just starting and we get glimpses if that and imo a better way than the original so I'm expecting things will be better in the next game especially.
personally as black male i did like his characters slow stead growth and the way he opens up and steps away from the front he puts on and i didn't mind his voice actor who i also know is black but that's probably also because 1)It could've been a lot more jarring and problematic and i tend to expect the absolute worst 2) with the source material i knew what i was getting into which isn't a good excuse honestly i guess I'm just numb to these depictions especially from video games *sigh*, 3) he does get better as the game goes on. I hope they jus keep improving his character for the better. Cause he's great so far especially with how he cares for his team and especially Marlene.
This right here.
While he's kinda growing on me (I'm in Sector 6, without spoiling anything), I told my wife I felt like he was an antiquated telephone game description of a caricature of black men when I played the demo and I hoped that it would change for the game and nope.
It may be getting better, but going from horrible to bad isn't that much of a jump.
User banned (2 weeks): Dismissive commentary about concerns of representation over a series of posts
Let me know how much thesis prep I need to do before I can respond in your thread.
Oh god yeah, his Japanese voice acting is one of the main reasons I try to point out that "the original Japanese" is not always an improvement as far as voice acting is concerned. Japanese Sazh is 100% a racist joke character and it's fucking embarrassing.
Omg I had a sort of dry heave reaction just remembering this character, I didn't even need to hit the play button to be reminded how messed up her characterization was, and I'm actually avoiding playing the video haha. As I'm typing I'm still having a visible reaction to the thought of the scene.
Reading more comments in here, it's interest, really interesting. I've already said my piece, but I'm curious to know how many people have played through the entire game and what they think about his character arc in general. This discussion has merit and I don't think his portrayal is free from problems at all, but what saved things for me were:
- They gave his anger purpose. He wasn't angry for the sake of it and you could see it was coming from a place of passion. This translated to multiple scenes where he was actually coming across as someone admirable, a leader, who was able to galvinise the people around him towards a great cause.
- The anger wasn't layered on too thick. Certainly, in the first few chapters of the game he seems fairly one note, but I can think of far more scenes where he shows compassion, leadership or outright wisdom throughout the majority of the game and especially in the last 2/3.
While his portrayal has problems, I don't agree that the game played on it heavily as again, his anger had context and didn't embody his persona. The basis of his character is 100% a stereotype, which is I'd say is more of the problem then how he's handled as a character from the start to the end of the game. But then maybe you could argue that despite the way he looks, his character arc throws preconceived notions of who he's 'supposed' to be out of the window which is a good thing? Doesn't seem so black and white to me.
Good thread and discussion anyway, thanks OP!
- They gave his anger purpose. He wasn't angry for the sake of it and you could see it was coming from a place of passion. This translated to multiple scenes where he was actually coming across as someone admirable, a leader, who was able to galvinise the people around him towards a great cause.
- The anger wasn't layered on too thick. Certainly, in the first few chapters of the game he seems fairly one note, but I can think of far more scenes where he shows compassion, leadership or outright wisdom throughout the majority of the game and especially in the last 2/3.
While his portrayal has problems, I don't agree that the game played on it heavily as again, his anger had context and didn't embody his persona. The basis of his character is 100% a stereotype, which is I'd say is more of the problem then how he's handled as a character from the start to the end of the game. But then maybe you could argue that despite the way he looks, his character arc throws preconceived notions of who he's 'supposed' to be out of the window which is a good thing? Doesn't seem so black and white to me.
Good thread and discussion anyway, thanks OP!
It still amazes me to this day that Eidos never went back in and updated that scene after how embarrassing it was.
That accent/speech is over the top for me and makes me cringe.
I guess Barret just doesn't reach that level for me.
White male stereotypes aren't going to come under the same kind of scrutiny because white men are neither marginalized or have to fight for representation in media.
Do you even know the reason he stopped wearing his gold chains? It wasn't because of racist stereotypes or anything, he saw it as the Christian thing to do after hurricane Katrina because he didn't feel it was right to be going around dropped in gold when people were suffering from losing everything.
The Chocobo living in his fro is the only problematic thing about his visual design. I don't think I would classify him as a "ridiculous racist caricature."
But how does having an afro make him a racist stereotype? Having a Chocobo living inside it is one thing, but just having it - how is that racist? I guess I was racist against myself the past 3 years when I had an afro. And equating having the Chocobo to having a chicken? Wtf? I have never heard such an interpretation until you brought it up. What is going through your mind when you see Sazh for you to make that connection? Like seriously wtf? LOL
Listen to his Japanese voice acting and you'll see why I'm calling him that. The game treats him like an absolute joke and it's really really unfortunate.
The English voice acting goes a long way to salvage him but the original Japanese does him ZERO favors.