I am answering your questions despite them being already being answered in the thread and you're not even addressing the points made in those answers.
That makes you a time wasting asshole. And your new question is dumber than all the previous ones.
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So square can make drastic changes to FF7 in the remake but couldn't be bothered to not make Barrett an ignorant racist caricature? (Read Threadmarks)
- Thread starter Chief Malik
- Start date
That makes you a time wasting asshole. And your new question is dumber than all the previous ones.
The train scene is bizarre. I definitely don't think the Shinra people are meant to be sympathetic there, but what were they thinking with that dialogue. Also, yeah the weapon excuse makes zero sense because no one really cares outside of maybe some minor chatter in the background. Hell, the game makes a point to have NPC's not recognize weapons. In chapter 4 there is no reason that people shouldn't recognize those weapons, but no one really cares.
I have, yeah. He has more than enough reason to be angry, but I still think there's a weird disconnect in those first few chapters.
Aight. Fucking no. Fucking dont do this shit. Fucking stop.
That entire scene is framed in an entirely racist and problematic. You have the extremely ripped tatted up black guy with a gun for an arm barging in on the conversation of a bunch of a bunch of well spoken suited white people. Then when he calls himseld a law abiding citizen the white women actively implies he couldnt be a law abiding citizen because of how he looks. Then they have him standing over them actively intimidating them while he preaches violence and vigilantism in pursuit of the bigger goal. (He's right but that's not the fucking point, its the framing of the entire scene) They respond with they wont be swayed by the violence and intimidation coming from the black mans words. He stands over them agaim actively intimidating them. Then he says "them fighting words" which is again, framed as intimidation. Then the well to do law abiding white people leave the car because they are afraid of the strapped up angry violent black man who just intimidated them.
That's what the fuck the scene shows. We are not "looking" for shit. It's fucking obvious to anyone with common sense how problematic this entire scene is from the dialogue, to the framing, to the interactions and body language to the societal power dynamics. Like if you see nothing wrong with this scene, I seriously dont see how you can take part in a discussion about racial portrayal.
The whole game is ridiculous in people not reacting to these people who are obviously the terrorists walking around everywhere.
People aren't getting banned for disagreeing with the OP. Plenty of people disagree with the OP. I don't even fully agree with the OP.
Everyone is skirting around the question being posed by the main issue. The main issue posed in the OP as well as everyone in this thread is that they do not enjoy how Barrett is represented which is loud and angry yes? So you would like to see a solution. The question is what is the solution to this to which the specific question is the one everyone has been skirting around.I haven't seen a reasonable solution in the thread yet through my skimming. So the alternative is to remove stereotypes as an option. If pointing out the truth and working things out logically suddenly makes me an asshole, idk what to tell you.
So your initial point about Barret being a big dude with a gun on his arm was an irrelevant point that you included for no reason because it's really just up to the devs?
Cool.
i really like barrett as a concept and they did a lot of good shit with his character but that first time i heard him finish a battle and say it "it ain't no thang", i was sure i had heard something wrong. i had not.
Everything is up to the devs. Everyone is arguing about how Barrett fits a stereotype and how he's presented with examples but what yall are really arguing about is intent of the developers.
I can definitely see the stereotyping and the voice can be a bit much at times but despite all this I have to admit that Barret is still my favorite character in FF7 Remake. The scènes with him and Marlene are great.
This is your takeaway from this thread? Really?
OP has a valid argument against the racism on display in FF7R and you're just hand waving it as troll bait, what the fuck.
I mean, you do realize that this entire post comes off as saying "even though they think differently doesn't change the fact that that my position is correct"? Hell, by throwing in "supposed black" this seems to throw in doubt that -any- Black person can come to a different conclusion than your own. In a situation like this where PoCs are having wildly different reactions to Barrett, this kind of attitude is much less conducive to having a dialogue, but reads like "Barrett's portrayal is factually problematic, but say whatever I guess."
Why does Barret's reason to be mad matter? Do you think anyone else in the series that has been wronged by Shinra or is from where Barret is from will act or talk like Barret? Should we assume the rest of the cast doesn't care if they don't preach about planetology and sticking it to the mastas?
Yea and it really can't be understated that it was added by localization. Barret in both scripts this time is an expanded more nuanced version of what he was like in the original.
👏
The nuance is that in spite of the writing clearly not being overtly written with racist stereotypes and framing in mind, the framing and execution of the scene itself is at best, incredibly tone deaf.
I switched to Japanese VA soon after the bombing mission because of Barrett's English voice acting taking me out of the experience. It almost felt like his VA came from a different game—I kind of figured I wouldn't like the Barrett character period after that, period. Now, later on, with Japanese VA on, he's pretty close to my favorite character. That English VA just really wasn't landing for me. And I don't want to pick on Barrett alone. I noticed some other VA that I'd describe as inconsistent as well. I figured it'd be better to just switch to the spoken language I don't understand rather than be jerked around by the inconsistent VA.
You can be loud and angry without also sounding like you're about to call someone a "jive-ass Turkey". The way he was written—and acted—is problematic and lazy. It falls directly into a trope that it doesn't have to. You can be loud, angry, and black without acting like a caricature.
See: Anansi from American Gods. His interpretation of loud, angry, and black was not rooted in a caricature from the 80s.
This is what you said:
And now your walking it back because Cloud was brought up and all of a sudden it's up to the devs who decided that Barrett, the black guy, was the only one who would be subject to this treatment.
Huh.
You being an asshole makes you an asshole. And like I already told you the first time, the solution I'd like to see is already in the game already done with the character people are criticizing.
Barrett has different modes. Caring father and leader, boisterous leader putting on a show, someone with genuine fears and concerns and angry eco terrorist.
Some of those personas are genuinely good. Replace the caricature ones with an actual charismatic leader worth following, who can still be flawed. This was all said in my very first post here. Not skirting around shit.
I'm not walking anything back. Cloud is not integral to that cutscene. How those people react to Cloud is irrelevent.
There's disagreeing and then there's dismissing the concerns of minorities.
This thread is full of stupid. As expected when race is brought up. Some of y'all just can't accept the fact that your game or favorite pop culture product is problematic.
Fucking dismissing racism like it isn't a problem.
I was side-eyeing his dialogue early on, especially with the train scene, but overall Barett's characterization is so endearing and well-executed that I couldn't help but to like him anyway. I won't excuse the problematic aspects at play here, but they don't ruin the character as a whole either.
Contrasting how NPCs reacted to the other character with a weapon is relevant.
Wait, but wouldn't your own interpretation of this scene mean the game is painting the Shinra people as racist (in a way) in this context? I'm ignoring the arguments of the post you're responding to, but I don't think this scene is trying to frame Barret in a negative light.
No, I'm saying that while they're allowed their point of view, there is a very unfortunate tendency for people to go "Oh, well this one black person is cool with it, so that means all the other people saying that they DO have a problem with it are wrong!"
But I guess all we can have are these bad-faith arguments and defensiveness instead of taking the time to understand that people's discomfort with the character is valid even if you personally don't find it offensive.
Alright, I guess I'll say this and disengage. If yall are looking to have a conversation and pick apart the problematic elements in the game that's awesome. I think my concern is when people start expecting solutions to these problems. There are no easy solutions to address these types of problems. It's not a perfect game and the people making it aren't perfect. So when we start asking for solutions, it's never going to be nuanced. Ever. I think discussion for knowledge and self-improvement is good. Talking about solutions to these games are also great. But talking about the problems and easy ways to fix them is an extremely reductive take on how challenging tasks of these scales are. There will always be something. We are never going to have a perfect game that has perfect representation and remove overtly (or subtle) racist elements.
I'm not black, so I don't want to go out of my lane, but I want to mention that mentioning TV Tropes as an example doesn't exactly mean you're just seeing things through that specific site's lens. While TV Tropes has a lot of pages that it's collected on its own and attempted to define, the discussion of representation within media, as well as tropes within media, has a much longer history than just TV Tropes. I understand what you mean--thinking solely in tropes can lead to a host of problems--but that site can also provide helpful examples that are accessible to people that aren't necessarily in academia and/or media critique. For example, Magical Negro, Blaxploitation, and Token Black Friend don't simply come from TV Tropes: they're terms coined by black people to talk about how they're treated in media, and they're well-known terms used in media analysis. Dismissing them as reductive when they were ways to give names to phenomena that people were observing doesn't quite do them justice, imo.
Like, feel however you want about Barret and how he's portrayed--that's pretty personal, and I'm certainly nobody to tell you how to feel. I just wanted to point out that some of these are more than just tropes from a website.
It sucks, there was one moment where you could hear the VA actual voice during the scene of Barrett mourning the loss of Biggs, Wedge and Jessie, and it got me emotional. That moment was soon lost when he went back to his stereotypical voice. Man, what I wouldn't give to have Barrett toned down and given a more normal voice.
There's the crux of it.
I've also seen far too many problematic parts of this game hand-waved in threads on this forum as "But it/he was like that in the original". It's almost like Square had a chance to change or correct some things and... didn't.
I think it's generally bit of a problem with many JRPG:s, the characterizations are way over the top and rarely feel like natural people (which is why I'm not usually a fan). In the context of representing a minority (like here) or women, it's obviously worse when harmful stereotypes are so strongly present. I've only played the original though, but from what I've seen I get why Barret (also) in Remake would rub people the wrong way. Though I must admit, I do enjoy Mr-T myself. He's a fun dude.
Edit: Also weird to see so many "only white people are bothered by it" posts, as I understand OP themselves is black.
Edit: Also weird to see so many "only white people are bothered by it" posts, as I understand OP themselves is black.
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People don't react to Cloud much because he is wearing a familiar Soldier uniform and has a weapon typical of people in Soldier. They mostly would assume he is from the military.
Barret is wearing casual clothes, and his weapon is a prosthetic arm cannon.
I mean would you be more surprised to see a man wearing a US Army uniform (or whatever country you are from) or a guy in street clothes with his arm replaced with a gatling gun?
Barret is wearing casual clothes, and his weapon is a prosthetic arm cannon.
I mean would you be more surprised to see a man wearing a US Army uniform (or whatever country you are from) or a guy in street clothes with his arm replaced with a gatling gun?
Both characters have big weapons. Both characters are on the train. How is people reacting to Cloud not relevant to how people react to Barrett? That's like... part of the point!
If the reaction is borne out of intimidation, surely Cloud should get some similar reactions and not just Barret, the black character.
I really don't get why they describe Barrett as "loud and angry". He's passionate about his cause. Describing him as loud and angry almost sounds like a dog whistle. He's dominant and passionate. We really need to watch the language we use when we talk about black people and what people think are stereotypes.
I think Barret often lashes out at people
because he projects his guilt onto others, he sold out his mining town to Shinra and feels guilty for his best friend being killed in Shinra's incident there.
Bull fucking shit.
Hire PoC writers. Hire consultants. These games aren't made on small budgets.
I don't agree that the representation is problematic. I think the character is really strong and nuanced. A black character being angry doesn't automatically mean they are nothing more than a one note trope.
There's disagreeing and then there's being drive-by dismissive and insulting about it.
Cloud is literally wearing a SOLDIER uniform, he could easily pass as a mercenary or a Shinra soldier.
Cloud looks like a Soldier and carries a Soldier weapon which is why the Shinra employees aren't that bothered by him. Not excusing the way the scene is portrayed btw just saying that using Cloud as an example doesn't work in this instance.
Barret in that scene is a very clumsy Japanese depiction/stereotype of how they see Black people as big, loud, and scary that they try to subvert with the fact that the Shinra employees are in the wrong and Barret is on the side of justice but it doesn't really make the execution okay. It was definitely one of the few scenes with Barret that I felt were pretty blatant. Not much the localization could have done there since they can't change the mocap or the scene entirely so I hope there was at least communication from them that the scene was potentially problematic and Square will take that into consideration for part 2 hopefully. (Probably not).
Barret in that scene is a very clumsy Japanese depiction/stereotype of how they see Black people as big, loud, and scary that they try to subvert with the fact that the Shinra employees are in the wrong and Barret is on the side of justice but it doesn't really make the execution okay. It was definitely one of the few scenes with Barret that I felt were pretty blatant. Not much the localization could have done there since they can't change the mocap or the scene entirely so I hope there was at least communication from them that the scene was potentially problematic and Square will take that into consideration for part 2 hopefully. (Probably not).
No one's saying that you can't have a black character be loud or angry. Some of people's favourite black characters in media act in that way. It's different if you have a large cast of multiple black characters showing different concepts of the black experience. It's different if it's written by black people because it matters if you're in on a joke or being laughed it. It's different if the stereotypes are being interrogated in deeper or more intimate way that shows that the creators actually have an understanding of who they're talking about. However, if the most prominent black character in a fantasy universe is a big angry black guy who talks like he's from a blaxploitation movie (in a way that almost no one else in this universe does) people are going to point this shit out.
I'm just talking solely from the perspective of "black person who sees that post." The other people who try to use that one opinion as representative of an entire group of people to fulfill their agenda, no, that's not something they should be doing and is fucked up.
in regards to the train scene Cloud is a former member of solider who's still wearing his uniform why would people react to him having a sword? compared to Barret who is the only person show in this part of the game to have a mini gun for an arm. I'm sure people would be scared if someone who has a damn mini gun for an arm started shouting at them regardless of race.