User Banned (1 Month): Dismissing concerns about racial stereotypes and making inflammatory false equivalences over multiple posts
is the stereotype that he's loud and angry?
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So square can make drastic changes to FF7 in the remake but couldn't be bothered to not make Barrett an ignorant racist caricature? (Read Threadmarks)
- Thread starter Chief Malik
- Start date
is the stereotype that he's loud and angry?
I'm not normally one to place responsibility on the gaming press for anything but it is fucking embarassing this scene was not shredded to a million pieces by the gaming media. Like actually, what the fuck is this bullshit and how did no one see how problematic it was?
I would say he's actually toned down, he's given more scenes and in spite of having way more dialogue overall. He curses less. And he speaks in a less stereotypical way. In the original, they literally put mistakes in his grammar and such to make it seem like he's not capable of speaking properly. (Which always made the "he's just Mr. T" excuse total bullshit, as he very explicit did not speak like Mr T at all. And what made matters worse is that all of this was added in localization and not how he was actually like in the original
It felt like the modern localization team took much more care to avoid that sort of portrayal, in spite of the voice direction, and scenes that feed into racist stereotypes when it comes to framing. And at times the writing has the proper nuance to say "this is not what Barret is actually like"
But it's not fine and dandy, and it really needs to be said that the context of the narrative doesn't justify all of the decisions made.
^
This scene SUCKS. And is a pure example of how NOT to frame black characters, and how even if it's unintentional, you can play into some hella racist stereotypes. The very best argument you can make in favor of this scene is that it's woefully tone deaf, as if David Cage made a visit to the studio and personally directed this scene. Nothing of value would be lost if they changed the scene entirely.
In the same sequence where they clarify that he's playing up a persona no less. 🤦♂️
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Less like a caricature, more like he actually does in other scenes. The solution to this complaint is already visible in aspects of the game. More charismatic, less like a caricature. Show me the guy that Biggs, Wedge and Jessie chose the follow and not the guy they roll their eyes at when he's doing his spiel for the 100th time.
He's an emotionally wounded man with a scarred past, he's devoted to his adopted daughter to the point where he'll risk life and limb for her and her future, and he's outwardly loud and furious and bombastic and over-the-top in part to protect himself from his inner pain. Just like Cloud's distant dickheadness, it's partly a defense mechanism. They're very similar in that regard, and they've just taken slightly different flavors of the same defense mechanism.
He's not just angry, he's sad and he's hurt, incredibly so, and it's 1000% legitimate.
He's not just angry, he's sad and he's hurt, incredibly so, and it's 1000% legitimate.
Agreed there. I guess I just felt like out of the main playable characters, Barret had the most clear and distinct character traits, both positive and negative.
Aeris is number two since they got her spunk back, but Tifa is extremely bland, and Cloud is a robot half the time and a quip machine the other half of the time. Barret, warts and all, felt like the most crystallized character of the core cast.
Probably because unlike Cloud and Tifa they aren't literally treading water to avoid giving the players the context for his motivations and personality. His flashback just adds a little more detail to him, but Cloud and Tifa's is integral to explaining why they act the way they do PERIOD.
I think it's understandable to be angry with the situation they are put in with Shinra, but the voice acting always felt a bit over the top even in some of the scenes where he's reflecting like in chapter 14, which is a scene that definitely fleshes the character out more.
It also felt strange how none of the other characters felt like they were taking things as seriously as Barrett, which makes his anger seem more comedic at points. We have the awkward speech about being "Shinra's dog" at the beginning, and Jessie, who
kind of just shrugs it off.
I feel like the game gets better about it as it goes on, but it's very jarring how over-the-top the character is relative to everyone else in those first few chapters
It also felt strange how none of the other characters felt like they were taking things as seriously as Barrett, which makes his anger seem more comedic at points. We have the awkward speech about being "Shinra's dog" at the beginning, and Jessie, who
has a father in a coma as a result of Shinra's actions
I feel like the game gets better about it as it goes on, but it's very jarring how over-the-top the character is relative to everyone else in those first few chapters
Are people doing va work only allowed to use their normal voices now?
I was a little bothered by how he was portrayed at times. I'm playing the original FFVII in Japanese, and he's not as brash or reckless as his FFVII R incarnation.
What? I want to know because I think it's crazy that you'd go with that voice for the character.
Are you just gonna play obtuse and keep asking questions already answered in the thread. Don't gotta read all 12 pages, but shit, put in some effort.
Have you played the original? Barret definitely has a reason to be extremely angry with Shinra, even aside from the "bleeding the planet dry" stuff.
People are allowed to have varying levels of skin tone and voice ranges.
John Bentley is very clearly doing a character voice, yes. You can hear his normal voice in the Youtube videos posted in this thread.
I think it's both.
A good character (in combat and as a comrade to to arms and all that whatnot) but also a caricature. People don't WANT to dismiss him because overall he's fun and adds wonderfully to the story... But yeah early on (especially) it's hard not to see his behaviours were dictated by folks with a poor understanding of why his general attitude and shtick is problematic.
So uh whynotboth.gif :/
No. I'm asking you to be specific because I don't want to misrepresent your specific point. If you feel that a black man being loud and angry is a caricature, then how else would you portray Barrett given his circumstances. Genuine question. Because the reality is, regardless of sex, gender, ethnicity, race, etc. that person would be angry and loud. So what about him would you like to change so he's more charismatic and less like a caricature.
My problem with the people in this thread is that everyone is generalizing about what Barrett is and doing and not digging into specifics enough.
Not played the remake yet, but damn, this example amongst the others is really disappointing to read. Barret's characterization in the original really grated me for its shitty racist tropes and to see SE haven't overhauled it is a shame.
After Detroit: Become Human, I expect nothing from the gaming press at large. Nothing.
This is an extremely reductive take and there's no nuance. It's people reading into things that they want to find. Barrett is a big dude. he's going to be intimidating. He's also talking about terrorism and supporting them. He also has a goddamn gun on his arm. Yes you're going to question a dude like that. Like... holy shit.
Fuck that, graphics got better so dark skin doesn't exist? And sorry but his choice for the voice falls in line with black characters in anime and japanese games sounding crazy.
Looking at the list of of black stereotypes on tvtropes provided by Makeno, it seems that it's really hard to make a character that wouldn't not fall in at least one of those categories. What would be the determining factor where we can say that the character is more than just a stereotypical character?
This aggrivated me A lot in the original a lot, I didn't care for the implication.
Just in general I'm glad R-Barrett generally keeps urban slang[?] out of the mix (some shitty ass Nomura characters have been the types to say shit like "keep your nose outta this, YO!"... It comes off so goofy and I'm glad they resisted here)
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I must have missed all the similar train interactions with the main character, who weilds a big ass fucking sword on his back.
Cloud is not directly interacting with these people. Barrett is. And he's engaging with those people.
No it isn't, you're completely missing all the examples people have been posting:
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissing concerns of racial stereotyping
Barrett is wonderful in the Remake and genuinely has many powerful moments that expand who he is as a character beyond any sort of stereotype. While mods are banning people for 'dismissing representation', I also think they should consider acknowledging that the art of this game, its original spirit and characterization, also has immense value and Square handled it in an exemplary way.
OP
OP
Tropes is a fun site, but definitely one you can't put much stock into for that (I always thought it was fun to read, especially subverted examples) but hardly a great site if you want to know what makes stories good or bad... Like you said, everything is effectively rendered unoriginal or a trope.
Bull fucking shit there aren't any examples. Wasted an hour in this thread and you have the gall to say that. My first fucking post here broke down the different ways he's portrayed and gave context to all of them.
Here's the point.
Despite there being times where Barrett is a likeable nuanced character he still sounds like this unironically a lot of the time.
And your next response will be 'yeah, but why is that voice bad?"
I thoroughly enjoyed Barrett in this. With what he has gone through and the current events, I personally didn't see anything wrong with him.
There's a reason I said the scene works on paper. It fulfills a lot of valuable functions for filling us in early on Barrett's passion for his cause, how he sees what he's doing (or wants it to be perceived), how Shinra underlings see what they're doing, and how people on the plate see people living down below. I also think, perhaps wishfully, that it gives us a sense of the act he puts on (Barrett knows he can be intimidating and is willing to use that to his advantage, even though we already know by this point that he's not going to beat innocent people up).
But the execution sucks in a lot of different ways that weren't necessary to get those points above across, and most of them are tied to how exaggerated everything is. Keep in mind that Barrett and his friends blew up a power plant an hour ago, are wanted by the law, and are trying to keep a low profile, even as they carry weapons around a train loaded with people who just saw the horrible aftermath of the explosion.
If Barrett's just trying to stick up for Avalance without seeming like a card-carrying member (since they are wanted by the law, and he wants to keep his operations secret), why does he say his initial lines defending Avalanche as if he's acting for a PR video? Why do the Shinra employees sound like they came from Metal Wolf Chaos? If Barrett is intimidating, and those employees are the sort of people who fear the Midgar slums and the people living there, why does Barrett have to (or think he has to) take a step forward and growl in their faces if he wants to frighten them? Why do they have to recoil in fear so hard one of them is putting his hand in front of his face as if he's about to get punched? Why do they literally applaud the manager's speech as they sit in a public subway car? Does (low profile!) Barrett have to kick a bench in a subway car to show he's upset with his inability to get through to them?
It's a sloppy scene in execution, and the sloppy exaggerations in it enhance the stereotypes surrounding Barrett's character. It doesn't help that all this happens before we meet Marlene, which is the first step towards grounding him as an actual human being.
User Banned (Permanent): Trolling. Previous infraction for dismissive trolling. Account in junior phase.
Do people just create these types of posts to bait people into getting banned? Because whenever these posts are created, any time anybody tries to disagree with OP - even in a calm, civil manner, they just get banned. Threads are just echo chambers filled with whichever side the mods agree with.
So yall would have no problem with an asian and white dude saying this line? It seems like the problem is that Barrett, who is black, says this line specifically. I mean... this is once again reductive. People have varying backgrounds and everything. We will never know intent here so limiting representation because he just happened to behave that way means you're ruling out so many things.
You know goddamn well what you're doing. And I'm not biting anymore.
You know what's funny? I've never played the original so I have no attachment to these characters. I played the demo and thought his voice acting was a bit too extra, but laughed because all the voice acting was animu as fuck, ie terrible. I figured it wouldn't bother me and people complaining where just too caught up to realize all the voice direction sucks. But when I played the full game Barrett began to grate on me more and more until I finally had to admit everyone in the BCC was right, this shit is fucking insulting. The man is a walking caricature. His voice work, his lines, they go FAR beyond just animu garbage voice direction into straight stereotype. His lines are literal non-black people trying to write ebonics to sound black.
The fuck is this shit? That's all I kept screaming to myself every time this man opened his mouth.
You are out of you mind.
The fuck is this shit? That's all I kept screaming to myself every time this man opened his mouth.
You are out of you mind.
You walk by a train full of people who are having conversations and sometimes react to your presence.
Not sure why the white dude with a sword didn't get a similar interaction but the black dude with a gun does. Hmm.
No. Because I feel like everyone wants the main question to be ignored. Do you only want to see non-stereotype black characters in video games? That's the real question being asked.
I don't disagree with you at all there. It IS a sloppy scene.
Because the developers chose BARRETT who is the central character of Avalanche, who represents their ideals, interact with those people and chose HIM to be in the cutscene. Not Cloud who is just a merc, and not Tifa who isn't the leader.
oh my god
The only reaction Cloud gets is an occasional "don't run into me dude!!!".
Its people not appreciating the sensitivity of the matter. Black peoples have been historically highly under represented in media and too often fit kinda inaccurate and caricature-esque stereotypes or side roles along to main light-skinned heroes (this itself only captures the surface of the problem).
You assuming and feeling there's no problem (or worse thinking the question is "bait" [?]) is also kinda problematic. 😉
What.
Where is this question coming from? Yes, I only want to see characters that aren't harmful stereotypes. Full stop. End of story.
You can easily write a fictional world that does not include "loud, angry black man that people are afraid of," or "meek submissive Asian," or any number of harmful tropes.