So square can make drastic changes to FF7 in the remake but couldn't be bothered to not make Barrett an ignorant racist caricature? (Read Threadmarks)

Lockheartilly9799 · Apr 23, 2020

So Barret definitely has aspects of Mr. T in him for sure. He sound stereotypical. We can't deny that.

The English voice actor, who is Black, was a fan of Barret in the original game and wanted to make his sounds resemble that. If John Eric Bentley was ok with the voice, I'm ok with the voice.

Also, Chapter 13 Barret is chef's kiss. The passion coming from that man spoke to my heart.

astro · Apr 23, 2020

MrConbon210 said:
Evil=dark is a common literary device. They aren't referring to race when they say darkness is evil. Look at Star Wars when they warn against going to the "dark side".

I think they get that, lol...

Midgarian · Apr 23, 2020

G_Zero said:
You can be too thoughtful though... I just don't think SE was thinking that deeply about American black culture when designing his character. Should they have? Well, in my opinion, not necessarily.

I can entirely understand the angle you are coming from re: Japan not having the same history with Black People as Western Europe.

I'm ethnically Turkish, not usually considered White from a meta cultural perspective (Europe vs Asia, Christianity vs Islam) but in reality we are White, as we benefit from White Passing as we heavily overlap in looks with South-Eastern Europeans and Southern Europeans.

Sometimes Turkish culture does Black Face, there are awkwardly named chocolates, awkward words used to refer to Black People etc. In the past I used to say to myself "Turkey hasn't had the same extreme history of White on Black racism, as Western countries have had. So Turkey is allowed to do these things because it's innocent, there's no malicious intent".

However I eventually learned that it was wrong to approach in that way. We live in a globalised World, we are not isolated, and these kind of micro-aggressions are memetic equivelants of the current genetic virus we are dealing with.

Even if we exclude the Globalisation argument, then it's ideal and pure of heart to behave as amicably and softly as possible with these type of subjects. All Human peoples are capable of this, "our history with Black people is different" is never an excuse.

SgtCobra · Apr 23, 2020

Hate said:
Straight hair isn't natural on Black people. At least that's what my black cousin told me. He's half asian. He told me people asks him if he was really black when he was young. I think that's the issue.

Depends on where your origins lie, not all dark skinned people have afro/curly hair.

Chief Malik · Apr 23, 2020

CharGP02A said:
So Barret definitely has aspects of Mr. T in him for sure. He sound stereotypical. We can't deny that.

The English voice actor, who is Black, was a fan of Barret in the original game and wanted to make his sounds resemble that. If John Eric Bentley was ok with the voice, I'm ok with the voice.

Also, Chapter 13 Barret is chef's kiss. The passion coming from that man spoke to my heart.

It's black people that think coonskin is a good movie, I've met them.

Ruisu · Apr 23, 2020

Daysean said:
I'm still chucking at the "wrestler Barret" thing

You know it's true. Just imagine that same speech but in a ring and Barret is using a skin tight suit

SpecDot · Apr 23, 2020

crimilde said:
Barret has a very good reason for being so angry, it's all in his backstory. Don't wanna spoil to what it all leads up to but his anger isn't there for the purpose of a trope.

This is what's bumming me out about the game. lol. Seeing the truth about a certain character won't be revealed until much later in the story and in Barret's case, yeah my mans went through some stuff.

Daysean · Apr 23, 2020

Ruisu said:
You know it's true. Just imagine that same speech but in a ring and Barret is using a skin tight suit

I personally don't agree but I can see how you came to that

MrConbon210 · Apr 23, 2020

Simplegamer said:
To be fair, Kingdom Hearts main villains for all 3 installments were of dark completion compared to the other characters. Ansem for KH1, Xemnas for KH2, and Xehanort for KH3, All were darker characters and the main villains.

Which, considering they are all the same person, I don't see as an issue especially as they aren't portraying any negative stereotypes. Xehanort is a very well-read, usually calm main antagonist. With every other supporting villain being a character of light skin, I wouldn't go as far to say Nomura only makes the villains of a dark skin-decent.

rras1994 · Apr 23, 2020

Ruisu said:
You know it's true. Just imagine that same speech but in a ring and Barret is using a skin tight suit

He's not meant to be a wrestler in the game, he's a leader of an eco terrorist cell and an activist. And wrestlers can be trope as hell too, it's not the defence you think it is

Lockheartilly9799 · Apr 23, 2020

Abdul Malik Ka'bah said:
It's black people that think coonskin is a good movie, I've met them.

Yeah, that's fair. I'm not trying to dismiss the feelings of Black people who dislike the character. If I give off that impression, I apologize. I also just don't want to dismiss John's feelings either if that makes sense.

RROCKMAN · Apr 23, 2020

Abdul Malik Ka'bah said:
It's black people that think coonskin is a good movie, I've met them.

Where the hell do you get off generalizing people like that OP? What if you like Barret but hate Coonskin while being black?

Why are you doing this in this thread? It this some sort of self demonstrating ploy I missed the memo on?

The Unsent · Apr 23, 2020

Joshg27 said:
Black man here, I was very conflicted on his portrayal. I feel it all comes down to the fact that his anger is justified but could have been portrayed differently.

He has plenty of moments of quiet, righteous anger in later chapters that would have been a better basis for the character. Early on it feels like they were leaning too much into the mr T stuff for the fun of it without realizing the implications. The game could have worked perfectly fine without it.

He was still one of my favorite characters overall but this worth discussing regardless. We still have more FF7 to go and SE might be receptive to our feedback.

I always felt like Barrett

is projecting his own guilt onto others because of his deal with Shinra ruining his home and getting his best friend 'killed'.

Now it would be cool if they can dipict that pain in a different way.

Chumunga64 · Apr 23, 2020

His voice actor really isn't helping. I remember Beau Billingsleau, his original voice being outraged over it.

Rosebud · Apr 23, 2020

strife418 said:
Not to sound offensive, but I think many women would actually prefer Barret's muscular and manly looks to scrawny Cloud.

This has nothing to do with the topic, but why men always make this weird assumption

Jimnymebob · Apr 23, 2020

Abdul Malik Ka'bah said:
Sooooo..... Dark skin = bad guys isn't a common trope globally and KH doesn't play into that at all? Alright.

When you say, and I quote

Abdul Malik Ka'bah said:
all the bad guys in kh dark skinned.

Don't act surprised when people call you out on it.

Obviously it's a common trope, but when 4 out of the 20 villains I can think of are dark skinned (5 if you count the past version of Xehanort), with only one being truly dark skinned, you can hardly call that all the bad guys.

Chief Malik · Apr 23, 2020

RROCKMAN said:
Where the hell do you get off generalizing people like that OP? What if you like Barret but hate Coonskin while being black?

Why are you doing this in this thread? It this some sort of self demonstrating ploy I missed the memo on?

................ You almost got me, almost

Supermanisdead · Apr 23, 2020

OP, I fully agree with you. It's really cringeworthy and very disappointing that this thread is a bunch of non-black people talking down to you. Barret's representation is a joke in this game. I'm enjoying the remake a lot, but honestly just feel disappointed that it's 2020 and this is the major AAA black male representation we get. This was definitely the place for them to have some time to reflect and rework this very important character. But nope, we get angry black doofus.

Ruisu · Apr 23, 2020

rras1994 said:
He's not meant to be a wrestler in the game, he's a leader of an eco terrorist cell and an activist. And wrestlers can be trope as hell too, it's not the defence you think it is

I know he's not meant to literally be one. But I don't see Tropes as inherently negative as this thread seems to imply, and every character in FFVII has some level of caricature going. Honestly I find his mannerisms quite endearing and charismatic, like an wrestler who's doing a character, and that helps me understand why people would be on his side in a world like Final Fantasy.
It's not that realistic but it isn't meant to be.

Deleted member 49535 · Apr 23, 2020

I think his voice actor went a little too overboard with it. I didn't like those first scenes with him. Thankfully he calms down after that (for the most part) and becomes a great character.

Deleted member 63139 · Apr 23, 2020

The angry, black badass is a stereotype I agree 100% and I give you that, but if your perspective revolves around anger only... why should a black man not be angry in a video-game ? Especially since he's an eco-terrorist.

Barrett is a good character, good plot, but he is a stereotype I can only agree. I'm Lebanese and the Arab stereotype is different in Japanese game but very present (Alabasta Arc in One Piece for instance, sums up the stereotype quite nicely), I don't mind it tbh because it's more ignorance : lack of communication/knowledge on other cultures rather than bad intentions, just that we're not all merchants on camels haha

I guess a country like Japan that is not a melting pot at all and quite isolated is destined to promote those stereotypes, but tbh they are far from being the worst

Jonathan Lanza · Apr 23, 2020

It's all real outdated. In a bubble jive talkin Mr.T man would be A-ok but he's ultimately the only black character in the game. I don't get why the only one has to be a caricature of a really old over the top black celebrity.

Ouroboros · Apr 23, 2020

I liked his character. Cringed at some dialogue but overall - good.

Blade Wolf · Apr 23, 2020

Honestly he is probably my favorite character outside of Cloud and Tifa, he is got a real heart. In some ways I would even say he is the best character in FF7.

jett said:
Barret is the best character in the game.

Hell yeah!

Caspar · Apr 23, 2020

I think they did an ok job in bringing a dated 'big pissed off black guy' character out of a 1990's video game into the present day without radically changing who Barrett is.

They added greater nuance whilst choosing not to completely rewrite him into something else entirely, which I think is reasonable for what is ultimately a nostalgia piece.

At the end of the day the remake is a 90's artifact with a glossy 2020 makeover. Most of the remake still has a 90's DNA to its design, and Barrett's tropey character is a part of that.

exodus · Apr 23, 2020

Isn't the source of the trope mostly rooted in the Black Panthers?

His voice is a caricature and that bothers me, but I feel the inspiration for his character is black activists, not Mr T.

Deleted member 15878 · Apr 23, 2020

My biggest problem with Barret is the voice actor. When I first played the demo I cringed at his dialogue, very over the top and corny... Plus the voice sounds like a white person imitating a stereotypical black one. I think he'd be mostly fine without that voice, I should try the french dub and see if it makes a difference. Overall I like the character but I think there are issues there.

Can I say though, despite some issues (e.g. Barret), I appreciate that FF is one of the only JRPG series where black people exist and actually have cool designs. I like Nomura's old drawing style and appreciate some of his designs for FF8 (Kiros), Parasite Eve (Rupert), Sazh (though I haven't played the game) etc. Outside of Nomura's designs you have others like Leo, Reddas, Fran. Anyway, off topic but growing up mixed I always appreciated that representation.

Midgarian · Apr 23, 2020

Blade Wolf said:
Honestly he is probably my favorite character outside of Cloud and Tifa, he is got a real heart. In some ways I would even say he is the best character in FF7.

I'm nearing the end of the game and he hasn't had enough screen time yet, but personally Reeves will be my favourite character. Working for Shinra and using the resources and his position for good, risking it all to rebel from his superiors. Nobody else has the same problem as that to contend with.

Chief Malik · Apr 23, 2020

exodus said:
Isn't the source of the trope mostly rooted in the Black Panthers?

White people's view of the organization in the 70's? Probably.

Blade Wolf · Apr 23, 2020

Midgarian said:
I'm nearing the end of the game and he hasn't had enough screen time yet, but personally Reeves will be my favourite character. Working for Shinra and using the resources and his position for good, risking it all to rebel from his superiors. Nobody else has the same problem as that to contend with.

The character in this game are so freaking amazing, it's unreal.

Lobster Roll · Apr 23, 2020

Jonathan Lanza said:
It's all real outdated. In a bubble jive talkin Mr.T man would be A-ok but he's ultimately the only black character in the game. I don't get why the only one has to be a caricature of a really old over the top black celebrity.

On top of that, the developers made deviations from the original FFVII (combat, music, narrative, etc.) that have been received positively overall. His characterization is amazing, but had they made him less (or completely none) of a caricature, I seriously doubt that people would be asking for him to be more offensive. The voice acting direction in particular makes me want to cringe out of my skeleton sometimes.

Dizastah · Apr 23, 2020

I mean, I don't think it's racist. He just seems extremely passionate about what he believes. He not all grrrr for no reason. I love his character.

Zukuu · Apr 23, 2020

I mean a bit stereotypical? Sure (like goddamn everything in almost every piece of medium. We have broody emo Cloud, we have sporty-spice Tifa, we have sleezebag Don etc.). "Racist caricature"? Reaching much?!

Worldshaker · Apr 23, 2020

CharGP02A said:
So Barret definitely has aspects of Mr. T in him for sure. He sound stereotypical. We can't deny that.

The English voice actor, who is Black, was a fan of Barret in the original game and wanted to make his sounds resemble that. If John Eric Bentley was ok with the voice, I'm ok with the voice.

Also, Chapter 13 Barret is chef's kiss. The passion coming from that man spoke to my heart.

This post nails my feelings pretty much. Barret is my favorite character by far in the remake.

Starseer · Apr 23, 2020

Kain-Nosgoth said:
i didn't like his english voice, too stereotopical (even if he's voiced by a black man)

he sounds more natural in japanese IMO, he just has the voice of a big guy you hear a lot in their media

A black character sounds too black with a black voice actor, so you'd rather listen to him in Japanese because it sounds more natural? Just curious if I'm understanding this correctly.

Necromanti · Apr 23, 2020

He can be a well-realized character that is now a lot more fleshed out, but that doesn't have to be mutually exclusive from the fact that there are still issues in his portrayal.

Scuttlefluff · Apr 23, 2020

Is TV Tropes the worst thing to happen to Internet criticism? It created a billion endlessly categorising armchair storytelling experts.

Starseer · Apr 23, 2020

Worldshaker said:
This post nails my feelings pretty much. Barret is my favorite character by far in the remake.

He's probably my favorite character as well (along with Biggs). Also the most fun to pilot in game too. Something super satisfying about his abilities and limit breaks.

Spring-Loaded · Apr 23, 2020

Zukuu said:
I mean a bit stereotypical? Sure (like goddamn everything in almost every piece of medium. We have broody emo Cloud, we have sporty-spice Tifa, we have sleezebag Don etc.). "Racist caricature"? Reaching much?!

"A bit stereotypical" can be still be "racist caricature" though. Why do you think they're mutually exclusive?

Deleted member 10726 · Apr 23, 2020

strife418 said:
Not to sound offensive, but I think many women would actually prefer Barret's muscular and manly looks to scrawny Cloud.

Not to sound offensive but this was absolutely one of the most irrelevant counterpoints I have ever read in a topic about racism. I know some folks in this thread basically set the bar at negative height, but random speculation about the physical appeal of one character to a certain group of people somehow justifying racist stereotypes might just be the worst argument I've ever fucking read.

As for this thread, I'll keep it short. All I want to say is that "having an arc" and shit like that doesn't excuse problematic parts of a character. Racism is not a zero-sum game, and you guys should know better than to think things really work like that.

Chaos2Frozen · Apr 23, 2020

Did they really make drastic changes to FF7 though?

The game is still set in Midgar, all the main story beats and major plot points are still being covered, and most importantly the characters are all exactly how people remembered them to be.

LiK · Apr 23, 2020

After playing through the game, I just see him playing it off as a caricature himself. He's def angry mainly cuz of his frustration with Shinra but I don't personally see him being the typical stereotypical "angry black guy". You see his true nature immediately after they escape Midgar in the train where he's worried about Cloud. I find him as a character who's trying to hide his true self in front of everyone to make himself look like a hardass which is in line with how we was in the original game (especially after you learn of his past). So he bloviates constantly. If people don't like his voice, then that's their gripe. I loved the performance.

Phil me in · Apr 23, 2020

Ruisu said:
You know it's true. Just imagine that same speech but in a ring and Barret is using a skin tight suit

jeff Barret?

Slayven · Apr 23, 2020

exodus said:
Isn't the source of the trope mostly rooted in the Black Panthers?

His voice is a caricature and that bothers me, but I feel the inspiration for his character is black activists, not Mr T.

What racist ignorant people think the black Panthers are, yeah probably

jaymzi · Apr 23, 2020

TC has a point in regards to cliche character archetypes for black people in games and anime.

Like how often do you get someone like Cloud but as a black person. The charismatic, cool, calm and collected type with every woman falling head over heels for him.

It's usually the loud, obnoxious, act before they think type.

Ruisu · Apr 23, 2020

Lobster Roll said:
On top of that, the developers made deviations from the original FFVII (combat, music, narrative, etc.) that have been received positively overall. His characterization is amazing, but had they made him less (or completely none) of a caricature, I seriously doubt that people would be asking for him to be more offensive. The voice acting direction in particular makes me want to cringe out of my skeleton sometimes.

Oh true, if they went in a different direction I would definitely not be missing the current one or anything. I don't find it cringy because you gotta keep at least some theatricality (if that's a word) with barret, he's a revolutionary he's gotta rouse up people, but it would work with another direction.

The Unsent · Apr 23, 2020

Zukuu said:
I mean a bit stereotypical? Sure (like goddamn everything in almost every piece of medium. We have broody emo Cloud, we have sporty-spice Tifa, we have sleezebag Don etc.). "Racist caricature"? Reaching much?!

To be fair racist stereotypes are more harmful than like "Broody Emo Cloud" I think you can enjoy the character but still see what stereotypical aspects he has that have been over prevalent.

Deleted member 4976 · Apr 23, 2020

//Itchy. Tasty said:
Is TV Tropes the worst thing to happen to Internet criticism? It created a billion endlessly categorising armchair storytelling experts.

Dismissive posts like yours probably rank higher.

Vinc · Apr 23, 2020

Hmm, that's an interesting perspective. On one hand, I can see how that's stereotypical, on the other hand, he's a great character that I think you might be underselling. These aspects of the character are actually all portrayed as a positive trait, although that obviously doesn't excuse the fact that it's stereotypical. He's very passionate about something he should be passionate about, and he's also very sweet and human. I would disagree that he's scary, although he is able to appear scary, the game reminds us many times that he's just as vulnerable as anyone else. There's several times he's portrayed as being (rightfully) scared and vulnerable. He's my favorite character in the game, but I also do see your point that some tropes are used here. I just think the tropes are used and subverted in cool ways, so I find the ethical dilemma interesting here.

Unclebenny · Apr 23, 2020

I've only played the demo, so not able to write anything insightful on how that character develops.

I mostly just want to show some solidarity with OP.

There's a lot of people in here (I would assume a lot of white people) dismissing valid concerns with the characterization of Barret.

Disagree for sure but don't just make drive a drive by dismissal, this why ethnic minorities don't speak up. If they do, they get accused of over-reacting.

This is a systemic power move, it's used on all minorities and anyone outside power. Even if that's not your intention, you playing into the system and limiting our ability for open conversation, by silencing the voices of anyone outside of the mainstream.

The result is that what should be a leading forum for more complex videogame discussion gets reduced to hype threads and tedious review score updates.

Take a second and think about what you're saying and why you're saying it.

So square can make drastic changes to FF7 in the remake but couldn't be bothered to not make Barrett an ignorant racist caricature? (Read Threadmarks)

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