So... Only 2.45% of trans people in the UK can marry as their own gender...

[Emmaginary]

Wait. What?
Whilst dealing with a difficult UK trans issue of my own, it has come to my attention that (by the UK governent´s own 2018 data) only 2.45% (at best) of trans people in the UK can get married whilst being recognised as their gender.

Note that I said "at best", because the government´s own estimates for the trans population in the UK ranges from 200,000 to 500,000. So by the UK government´s own figures it could actually only be 0.98% of trans people that can marry as their own gender.

How am I able to say this? The UK government, in 2018, said that 4910 trans people had successfully applied for a Gender Recognition Certificate under the 2004 Gender Recognition Act.

This miniscule number of trans people that can actually access something as taken for granted as a right by cis people, in a way that is not monumentally humiliating, is caused by the invasive, dehumanising, and drawn out process of acquiring one of these Gender Recognition Certificates.


So how does one acquire a Gender Recognition Certificate?
Here´s what a trans person needs to acquire a gender recognition certificate in the UK:

• A psychological report documenting a diagnosis of gender dysphoria from a UK registered gender specialist (but not any gender specialist will do, they have to be on an approved list of specialists that is not the same as the approved list of specialists necessary to acquire the much easier to obtain gender-altered passport). Medical Report A.
• A recent medical report from a UK registered GP or doctor outlining one´s hormone treatment regimen and why surgery hasn´t yet taken place (yes, the language is very much assumptive that gender confirnation surgery should take place, which sucks for any trans people who don´t want surgery - but especially for trans men as the surgery is more complicated for them). Medical Report B.

Note: Foreign reports or older reports are not valid. That sucks especially for the plenty of trans people in the UK who resort to DIY hormone therapy because the average waiting times to receive hormones via the NHS are around THREE YEARS and the overspill into the private sector means wait times there are likely to set one back at least six months and hundreds of pounds. If you haven´t seen an obliging doctor in potentially as little as the last six months to have a medical report B written then you would need to scout around for one who can issue you a new Medical Report B or get in the queues and wait ages for this simple confirmation. A General Practioner will suffice, but GPs in the UK are allowed to disregard any request for assistance from trans people who have not been seen by the NHS´s 3+ years of waiting Gender Identity Clinic system. They´re not supposed to, but they can and many of them will.

• Two years of evidenced experience of living full time as your gender. So a clean run of documents stretching back two years to demonstrate that you have been living full time as yourself. This can present problems, such as...
  --- Are you a trans person in the closet due to the very real hostility that a transphobic country like the UK engenders? Well, if you want full recognition by the UK then you had better hurry up and out yourself if you want full access to your rights and protections. Don´t do it at your own pace or wait for hormones toi physiclly alter your presentation so you reduce your risk of public abuse or improve your mood - you need to out yourself everywhere ASAP if you want UK law to have your back. You had better hope you´re not a trans woman who gets sent to prison during your time without your Gender Recognition Certificate.
  --- Found the love of your life and want to marry now but still got some years on the Gender Recognition Clock? Don´t worry. If your a trans woman then you can just marry as a man and as a trans man you can just marry as a woman, and then when your two years of living full time, under prosecutable oath, as only your genuine gender identity you could apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate to fix your status... Oh wait! You, a trans woman, married as a man OR you, a trans man, married as a woman, during the period in which you need to prove that you have only been living as a woman or a man respectively? Then how can you testify under oath that you have been living for the last two years purely as your gender when the government has a record of you publically taking another oath as the wrong gender?
  --- Are you non-binary? You probably won´t have reached transness level 100 enough for the Gender Recognition Panel´s liking. More on Enbies later.

And...

• Be 18 or over. You can have treatment at 16 for gender dysphoria, get married age 16, and sign away your life to die on behalf of a 90 year old woman who thought owning an empire was acceptable conduct, but you can´t be recognised as your gender at aged 16.
• Give them 140 Brexits (the new currency) for the admin fee and wait for about three months for a panel of strangers to rifle through medical reports containining details of your gender, sexuality (yes, they will demand that the reports mention this), childhood, and health and determine if they believe you´re trans enough.

On top of all this shambles is the fact that the UK doesn´t recognise non-binary people and only has two official gender markers, male and female. Therefore even if the Gender Recognition Act were to be reformed, any non-binary people would still have to pick either their assigned birth gender or a binary Gender Recognition Certificate Gender as their poison when they marry, what age they can retire, and which prisons they can be incarcerated in. Enbies would still have to pick husband or wife.

So if the process is so simple that you can fit it into a ResetEra thread, why don´t more trans people have a GRC?
Did you read the above, it´s theoretically simple but in practice a deeply dehumanising, lengthy, and costly process. Most trans people don´t bother because they can´t manage or afford to meet the requirments, they are uncomfortable being pried upon so much, or even if they could then they can´t get what they need at the end of the process because they´re non-binary. 97.65% of UK trans people aren´t foregoing full recognition and rights because we have it so good already.


Wasn´t this being reformed?

1. Yes, once upon a time.
2. In 2017, Thezza May promised that the issue would be reformed in 2018.
3. In 2018, the consultation was pushed back for completion into 2019.
4. In 2019, the consultation was completed and it was said its official findings would be released imminently.
5. It´s now 2020 and the reforms look to be dead and buried in England, Wales, and North Ireland. Scotland is a bit more alive.

Why has this happened?
Because the UK media rallied around sensationalist stories about trans women entering female bathrooms to perve on other women (though naturally the UK media did not use the phrase "other women" to describe the reklationship between cis and trans women). And yes, it is always trans women that the media is afraid of in the UK, even though what they demand essentially means putting trans men into women-only spaces just to own the libs and trans women. The BBC, thought of well by many of you here, is just as guilty as the Express, the Mail, or the Telegrath for providing oxygen to the TERF movement. Furthermore, the current, right-wing government that until today had an openly white supremacist adviser, derives none of its power from the approval of trans people and our allies, so it does not give a tiny shit about helping trans people.


What can you do?
Write to your local MP, or the the leadership candidates of the Labour party, to remind them how important it is to stop legally marginalising 200,000 to 500,000 already culturally and medically marginalised people.

Fixing the Gender Identity Clinic system of NHS gatekeeping is perhaps more important to the lives of trans people in an everyday sense, but this should be a more plausible win (and even this is virtually impossible for the foreseeable future). It is a no-brainer, which only requires a simple change in the law to streamline recognition. It doesn´t require asking government to cough up some money. One only needs look at Portugal, Malta, Argentina, Ireland, Denmark, Norway, or Belgium to find countries that have massively streamlined their cis-tems without resulting in trans people dragging cis people out into the streets for public executions.

Government´s 2018 numbers.

Find your MP.

Labour Leadership Contest
(Make sure you get on Keir Starmer´s ass about this if you contact any of them, as he has been most wishy washy on trans rights out of the three of these and he is most likely to win.)

 

[Izzard]

This process seems very complicated. How does it compare with other countries?

 

[show me your skeleton]

i'm sorry that anyone has to go through any of this.
also fuck TERFs

 

[Deleted member 1478]

It's crazy that this is such a complicated mess.

 

[Stinkles]

BBC has been visibly going down hill as an independent news source even to us yanks. It's reputation is currently more to do with Dr Who, Professor Cox and Sir David.

 

[Emmaginary]

This process seems very complicated. How does it compare with other countries?

Click to shrink...

Ireland: Complete a statuatory declaration of change of gender after having enrolled your change of name in the public records.
Portugal: IIRC, contact the relevant government office to make a statuatory declaration.
Argentina: Contact a certain court to make a statuatory declaration.
Malta: Contact a certain court to make a statuatory declaration. IIRC, Malta can finish this in two weeks provided you are a citizen.
Belgium: IIRC, contact a court for statuatory declaration after (I think) 6 months of lived time as your gender.
Denmark: IIRC, contact a court for statuatory declaration after (I think) 3 months of lived time as your gender.

These are all what we might call self ID countries.

Germany, as a non-self ID comparison: Send a declarative letter to a court, pay upfront the costs of diagnosis by two court appointed experts and court admin. The court arranges the two psychiatric assessments for diagnosis and you also meet the judge who makes the final decision. Also a shit system, but at least there are fewer secret pitfalls of "oh, you were diagnosed by this person? Well, they are not on our list so... good luck finding another one by yourself", less simultaneously less medical gatekeeping in Germany for you to queue through, and no "give us the last two years of your life!"

The declarative letter Germans send to their court system is 0.5 pages long. The rest of the documentation is handled by the court and its appointed experts, albeit in a costly manner. The UK application is 16 pages long before you attach evidence, reports, oath statements, etc.

 

[Deleted member 1478]

It's sad as well when you hit that point and realise that the country you are actually quite proud of is just as shit as everywhere else. I know I used to think that the UK wasn't as racist as other places, wasn't as sexist or homophobic or xenophobic or as in this case, transphobic but it does take just reading stories from a few of the people suffering or reading something other than the few news stories that you had previously assumed were "the good ones" to see that we're just as bad as other countries. We just maybe cover it up a bit better. :(

 

[16bits]

lets get the UK changed to a self ID country!

Many reasons to do so, zero reasons not to.

 

[Deleted member 20850]

This process seems very complicated. How does it compare with other countries?

Click to shrink...

Here in Germany you write to court that you would like to change your name and/or gender marker.

The judge usually wants to see you at least once and will task 2 experts in the field to psychologically evaluate you. Before they do you have to to pay 2000€ to the court to cover those expenses.

On average you will spend about 6 hours being evaluated like that. They have to confirm that the compulsion to live as another gender has been present for 3 years and that it won't change anymore. This questioning can feel pretty invasive and the only time I ever had a panic attack was after one of those sessions.

Once those reports are finished the judge might want to see you again. Then a decision is made.

The whole process from applying to court order takes 6-12 months.

So not good here either.

For reference regarding bathroom stuff: I started to use women's bathrooms a year before I even wrote the court.

 

[finfinfin]

Ireland: Complete a statuatory declaration of change of gender after having enrolled your change of name in the public records.

Click to shrink...

Hypothetically, if one were British but Irish enough to claim citizenship and a passport, do you know how the UK (or Ireland) might handle it?

also fuck terf island

 

[Emmaginary]

Hypothetically, if one were British but Irish enough to claim citizenship and a passport, do you know how the UK (or Ireland) might handle it?

also fuck terf island

Click to shrink...

From my own delving into the matter for my own reasons, the Irish issue is likely predicated on residency more so than citizenship. It could be both residency and citizenship, potentially, but I stopped entertaining the idea of using the Irish citizen as a UK passport holder once I realised I would need to leave Germany to do it.

If you were both an Irish and a British citizen (and possibly resident in Ireland by requirement), you could indeed use Ireland's super chill recognition system to acquire their "Gender Recognition Certificate" and then use the "overseas" application to bypass the UK crap detailed above without the diagnosis letters or the two years of evidence. They would just accept Ireland's say-so.

Which does raise the question of "hey, UK! If you are willing to accept self ID for UK citizens indirectly through self ID laws in other countries then why don't you just let your citizens self ID?" Assholes.

 

[finfinfin]

Ah, residency. Bugger.

 

[Emmaginary]

Ah, residency. Bugger.

Click to shrink...

Don't give up entirely.
Maybe residency was only required for non Irish citizens. I am 85% certain this is not the case however, sadly, but please double check (or I can do so later) as there might be some hope.

Check your circumstances against this.

Legal recognition of your preferred gender

The Gender Recognition Act 2015 provides for the legal recognition of a person's preferred gender by the State.

www.citizensinformation.ie

 

[Platy]

Ireland: Complete a statuatory declaration of change of gender after having enrolled your change of name in the public records.
Portugal: IIRC, contact the relevant government office to make a statuatory declaration.
Argentina: Contact a certain court to make a statuatory declaration.
Malta: Contact a certain court to make a statuatory declaration. IIRC, Malta can finish this in two weeks provided you are a citizen.
Belgium: IIRC, contact a court for statuatory declaration after (I think) 6 months of lived time as your gender.
Denmark: IIRC, contact a court for statuatory declaration after (I think) 3 months of lived time as your gender.

These are all what we might call self ID countries.

Click to shrink...

Brazil also has a version of self id ... but you neeed a bazilion of documents, lots of burocracy and you either pay a big fee or wait way more.
But no doctor letter or proof of living as the right gender

 

[finfinfin]

Don't give up entirely.
Maybe residency was only required for non Irish citizens. I am 85% certain this is not the case however, sadly, but please double check (or I can do so later) as there might be some hope.

Check your circumstances against this.

Legal recognition of your preferred gender

The Gender Recognition Act 2015 provides for the legal recognition of a person's preferred gender by the State.

www.citizensinformation.ie

Click to shrink...

It reads to me as if residency is an alternative to needing citizenship, yeah, which is good since a parent was Irish. Still need to get that lot sorted out, but some relatives did track down the relevant birth certificates a while back so I know I can.

Edit: again, fuck this terf island.

 

[Emmaginary]

It reads to me as if residency is an alternative to needing citizenship, yeah, which is good since a parent was Irish. Still need to get that lot sorted out, but some relatives did track down the relevant birth certificates a while back so I know I can.

Edit: again, fuck this terf island.

Click to shrink...

Hurray!
This thread helped somebody.


Fuck TERF Island.

 

[finfinfin]

Well, looks like you can still use the overseas GRC application route even if you were born in the UK, but Ireland isn't on the list of approved countries, so lol, of course not.

 

[Fatoy]

To play devil's advocate for a moment, there are likely to be people (specifically people born as boys) who may still be going through puberty at age 16. From that point of view I feel like I understand the age limit for changing one's gender being set at 18.

IMPORTANT: I was banned and then later unbanned for this post, and while I recognise that I was - unknowingly - putting forward an opinion with a damaging legacy, I don't think it's fair for me to delete this or pretend it never happened. The conversation it ended up sparking between me and Emmaginary was eye-opening, and I encourage anyone else who feels the way I originally did to scroll down and read the rest of the discussion. There was a lot about trans rights that I had simply never considered before, and this thread is strong evidence that advocating a "pragmatic" approach to something you know basically nothing about is not only stupid, but can be actively harmful.

 

[Emmaginary]

Well, looks like you can still use the overseas GRC application route even if you were born in the UK, but Ireland isn't on the list of approved countries, so lol, of course not.

Click to shrink...

I would call them (the Gender Recognition Gatekeepers) on 0300 123 4503. My research over the past approaching two months has shown that their website literature is not as up to date as you would expect.

 

[Deleted member 20850]

To play devil's advocate for a moment, there are likely to be people (specifically people born as boys) who may still be going through puberty at age 16. From that point of view I feel like I understand the age limit for changing one's gender being set at 18.

Click to shrink...

Hopefully these days trans teenagers are not going through the wrong puberty. So either puberty is halted or HRT for their gender is applied.

I went through the whole thing of living with the male documents while being perceived as a woman as an adult. It was stressful. The easier people can access these services the better.

 

[finfinfin]

To play devil's advocate for a moment, there are likely to be people (specifically people born as boys) who may still be going through puberty at age 16. From that point of view I feel like I understand the age limit for changing one's gender being set at 18.

Click to shrink...

It's my understanding that your brain doesn't finish developing until your early 20s, and it's not like there wouldn't be a simple and easy route to fully reverse the changes if there was a simple and easy route to have your gender recognised. You'd hardly need a hundred pages of reports from doctors and therapists, after all. That sort of demand would be absurd.

 

[Emmaginary]

To play devil's advocate for a moment, there are likely to be people (specifically people born as boys) who may still be going through puberty at age 16. From that point of view I feel like I understand the age limit for changing one's gender being set at 18.

Click to shrink...

Why do you bring up puberty to discuss a purely administrative matter? Are you proposing a "let's wait until adulthood" to treat gender dysphoria model of care, even medical care?

If so, that is literally one of the worst things you could possibly say to trans people.

If you are saying that trans people need to wait until they are 18 to make a decision about their gender and treatment then you are already making a decision for them. A decision to make their transition many, many times harder. A decision to increase the hostility with which the world greets them. A decision to increase the anxiety and suicide risk of their teenage years.

Delaying treatment (even if that treatment is only puberty blockers to delay both forms of puberty until adulthood) in favour of letting trans people go through the wrong puberty is horrifically cruel.

Devil's advocate or not, if that is what you are proposing then I am shocked you would come into a thread about trans rights and say such a thing.

 

[Aya]

Austria has similar hoops to some regards, living 1 year full time and in that year one has to go through tons of red tape. Also, gotta be seen by 2 different psychologists and one psychiatrist, each has their own green light to give if one wants to advance further, prepare for in depth interviews where your life is analysed under a loupe.


It is frustrating and at times humiliating, but we have this cool NGO who helps transpeople deal with all of that red tape and appointment scheduling and more, so by the time that one year ends, unless one has medical or psychological issues, HRT is granted. Don't know about the paper trail but, I suspect it's more straightforward the the UK probably.

I have heard how remarkably shitty the NHS is though, and it blows my mind how backwards they are on the medical side of things, basically gatekeepers more or less. Know a lot of people selfmedicating because of that and when they finally get approved, their new Dr basically forces them to scale down their hrt to the lowest of limits under the threat of being refused treatment further if you dare to insist in remaining on good estrogen levels, for example. You were doing good on this dosage? Who cares, from now on only the bare minimum. And all of that after years of waiting and hoping. I've never heard that kind of feedback from any other developed country and I know tons of people from everywhere due to the fact that I'm in this super large group (I believe it's the biggest worldwide) that discusses the medical side of things and people check-in from every corner of the planet.

The only cool part I've heard regarding transitioning and the red tape in the UK was that one gets a passport and ID fairly fast. At least this is what I've heard some years ago from a good friend who got his passport and ID super fast and via mail too.

 

[Deleted member 31104]

Scotland has a bill going under consultation to rectify this

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: consultation

The draft Bill reforms the process by which trans people gain legal recognition of their lived gender through a gender recognition certificate.

www.gov.scot

In summary, the Scottish Government's proposals are:

• The removal of current medical requirements when applicants are seeking legal gender recognition;
• The removal of the need to apply to the GRP. Instead, applicants would apply to the Registrar General for Scotland ("the Registrar General") who already has a number of existing functions under the GRA;[29]
• Applicants must either (a) have been born or adopted[30] in Scotland or (b) be ordinarily resident in Scotland;
• Applicants must have lived in their acquired gender for a minimum of 3 months (rather than the current 2 years) before submitting an application for gender recognition;
• After an application has been accepted by the Registrar General, the applicant would have to confirm after a reflection period of 3 months that they wish to proceed;
• Applicants would have to confirm that they intend to live permanently in their acquired gender;
• Applicants would still be required to submit statutory declarations, made in front of a notary public or a justice of the peace; and
• It will be a criminal offence to make a false statutory declaration in relation to gender recognition and to make a false application for gender recognition.

4.03. The Cabinet Secretary also announced in her Parliamentary statement that the Scottish Government:

• does not intend to allow people under 16 to apply for legal gender recognition and would seek views on reducing the age from 18 to 16;
• intends to seek views on what support is needed for children and young people who are uncertain of their gender identity;
• would prepare guidance on supporting trans pupils in schools. The aim is to set out how to protect and promote the rights of trans pupils and other pupils in schools;
• would set up a working group on sex and gender in data, including consideration of disaggregation of data by male and female;[31]
• would develop guidance to make sure that policy makers and service providers understand better how to ensure that the rights of women and trans people can be collectively realised; and
• does not intend at this stage to provide legal gender recognition to non-binary people and would establish a working group to consider possible changes to procedures and practice in relation to non-binary people and what we can learn from best practice internationally, in Scotland and from the rest of the UK.[32]

Click to shrink...

 

[Deleted member 20850]

Scotland has a bill going under consultation to rectify this

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: consultation

The draft Bill reforms the process by which trans people gain legal recognition of their lived gender through a gender recognition certificate.

www.gov.scot

Click to shrink...

This would be a lot better. A whole lot. Although it still requires someone to live as their acquired gender for 6 months without official gender recognition.

 

[Fatoy]

Devil's advocate or not, if that is what you are proposing then I am shocked you would come into a thread about trans rights and say such a thing.

Click to shrink...

To be clear: I'm talking in good faith as an older person (approaching 40) who has limited first-hand experience of trans rights and trans issues. If it seems like I'm suggesting something horrific, I can assure you I'm only doing accidentally - not that that probably helps much.

Sorry if this is derailing the thread, but I've been candid here a few times before about wanting to better understand parts of the gender and sexuality spectrum I don't otherwise have any insight into. And this line of questioning comes from that same place: I'd like to know more, because I'm evidently pretty ignorant.

For instance, I had no idea that taking hormone blockers to delay the onset of puberty was a treatment option. Thinking about it, I can see how going through the "wrong" puberty could be devastating. From my limited experience, I know that a lot happens to colour who you are and how you think and how you feel during puberty, and I can certainly understand someone with gender dysphoria feeling "railroaded" into having an experience of maturity that, I can only assume, feels alien to them.

I'll be entirely honest: I was thinking that it would be logical to wait until a person becomes an adult before 'allowing' them to change gender. But reading your post makes me realise how narrow a view that was. To be clear: I wasn't saying that because I'm against people transitioning. Far from it. Man, I don't really know how to phrase this properly. I guess I saw that artificial delay as a "pragmatic" step. But just writing that out makes me feel stupid - one person's pragmatism (i.e. something it feels sort of prudent to do) is another person's life-defining quest to be recognised for who they are. One of those is obviously more important than the other.

 

[Emmaginary]

To be clear: I'm talking in good faith as an older person (approaching 40) who has limited first-hand experience of trans rights and trans issues. If it seems like I'm suggesting something horrific, I can assure you I'm only doing accidentally - not that that probably helps much.

Sorry if this is derailing the thread, but I've been candid here a few times before about wanting to better understand parts of the gender and sexuality spectrum I don't otherwise have any insight into. And this line of questioning comes from that same place: I'd like to know more, because I'm evidently pretty ignorant.

For instance, I had no idea that taking hormone blockers to delay the onset of puberty was a treatment option. Thinking about it, I can see how going through the "wrong" puberty could be devastating. From my limited experience, I know that a lot happens to colour who you are and how you think and how you feel during puberty, and I can certainly understand someone with gender dysphoria feeling "railroaded" into having an experience of maturity that, I can only assume, feels alien to them.

I'll be entirely honest: I was thinking that it would be logical to wait until a person becomes an adult before 'allowing' them to change gender. But reading your post makes me realise how narrow a view that was. To be clear: I wasn't saying that because I'm against people transitioning. Far from it. Man, I don't really know how to phrase this properly. I guess I saw that artificial delay as a "pragmatic" step. But just writing that out makes me feel stupid - one person's pragmatism (i.e. something it feels sort of prudent to do) is another person's life-defining quest to be recognised for who they are. One of those is obviously more important than the other.

Click to shrink...

Thank you for your response and honesty.

I apologize if I was too stern, but as a trans person who has been told that I and other trans people should not be allowed to transition until after the full effects of wrong puberty have been forced upon us, I am very defensive on this issue.

For clarification, forcing a trans woman to go through testosterone induced puberty would cause the development of a more masculine skeleton (including shoulders, face, and jaw), force facial hair growth, voice deepening, and potentially cause scalp hair loss if they were very unlucky. For a trans man, the opposite would cause breast growth, feminisation of the skeleton (including the hour glass figure, and a reduction in eventual height).

Not only do these effects cause massive mental trauma to trans people, the ability of HRT to undo these effects is limited. For example, once a trans woman's voice has been deepened by testosterone in untreated puberty, only surgery and voice training can re-feminise the voice. Once a trans man has been forced to grow breasts, testosterone won't remove them. They have to be surgically removed.

Some things obviously can never be changed, like overall skeletal structure and height.

Conversely, if a trans person receive HRT before or early into puberty then they will be physically indistinguishable from their cis counterparts externally, genitals aside.

Yes, puberty blockers are the bare minimum that trans teenagers should receive. This will reduce or outright prevent the negative impacts of natally occuring puberty and allow HRT to have much more comfortable results once it is finally administered.

Technically you're right and this is a de-rail, sure, but I think it is totally a point worth discussing I'm the thread. Thank you for understanding how that initial attitude can wreck house for trans teens. Your response shows it was not meant out of malice.

:)

 

[Fatoy]

Thank you for your response and honesty.

I apologize if I was too stern, but as a trans person who has been told that I and other trans people should not be allowed to transition until after the full effects of wrong puberty have been forced upon us, I am very defensive on this issue.

For clarification, forcing a trans woman to go through testosterone induced puberty would cause the development of a more masculine skeleton (including shoulders, face, and jaw), force facial hair growth, voice deepening, and potentially cause scalp hair loss if they were very unlucky. For a trans man, the opposite would cause breast growth, feminisation of the skeleton (including the hour glass figure, and a reduction in eventual height).

Not only do these effects cause massive mental trauma to trans people, the ability of HRT to undo these effects is limited. For example, once a trans woman's voice has been deepened by testosterone in untreated puberty, only surgery and voice training can re-feminise the voice. Once a trans man has been forced to grow breasts, testosterone won't remove them. They have to be surgically removed.

Some things obviously can never be changed, like overall skeletal structure and height.

Conversely, if a trans person receive HRT before or early into puberty then they will be physically indistinguishable from their cis counterparts externally, genitals aside.

Yes, puberty blockers are the bare minimum that trans teenagers should receive. This will reduce or outright prevent the negative impacts of natally occuring puberty and allow HRT to have much more comfortable results once it is finally administered.

Technically you're right and this is a de-rail, sure, but I think it is totally a point worth discussing I'm the thread. Thank you for understanding how that initial attitude can wreck house for trans teens. Your response shows it was not meant out of malice.

:)

Click to shrink...

This is all fascinating - thank you. And I don't mean that in a "you're like a science experiment" kind of way; I mean it's legitimately eye-opening.

I guess if my posts in this thread (which I won't go back and edit, because they might be a helpful learning experience for someone else) show anything, it's how easily someone who's already grown up a certain way can fall into the trap of feeling like they know what's best for somebody else. What seems like a casual , well-reasoned "perhaps we should wait and see" can be really damaging - whether you mean it to be or not.

 

[kittens]

Yeah as a trans person from the United States I've been somewhat shocked and surprised to see how far behind the UK is regarding trans rights and the public's attitude towards trans people, even among supposed progressives.

 

[Deleted member 1478]

Thank you for your response and honesty.

I apologize if I was too stern, but as a trans person who has been told that I and other trans people should not be allowed to transition until after the full effects of wrong puberty have been forced upon us, I am very defensive on this issue.

For clarification, forcing a trans woman to go through testosterone induced puberty would cause the development of a more masculine skeleton (including shoulders, face, and jaw), force facial hair growth, voice deepening, and potentially cause scalp hair loss if they were very unlucky. For a trans man, the opposite would cause breast growth, feminisation of the skeleton (including the hour glass figure, and a reduction in eventual height).

Not only do these effects cause massive mental trauma to trans people, the ability of HRT to undo these effects is limited. For example, once a trans woman's voice has been deepened by testosterone in untreated puberty, only surgery and voice training can re-feminise the voice. Once a trans man has been forced to grow breasts, testosterone won't remove them. They have to be surgically removed.

Some things obviously can never be changed, like overall skeletal structure and height.

Conversely, if a trans person receive HRT before or early into puberty then they will be physically indistinguishable from their cis counterparts externally, genitals aside.

Yes, puberty blockers are the bare minimum that trans teenagers should receive. This will reduce or outright prevent the negative impacts of natally occuring puberty and allow HRT to have much more comfortable results once it is finally administered.

Technically you're right and this is a de-rail, sure, but I think it is totally a point worth discussing I'm the thread. Thank you for understanding how that initial attitude can wreck house for trans teens. Your response shows it was not meant out of malice.

:)

Click to shrink...

Just want to add a thanks for this as well. Not something I had ever considered either.

 

[Emmaginary]

Wait.

Why was fatoy banned?

They clearly said something that was dangerous for trans people (I was one of the first people to call them out on it), but they apologised after one post explained why they were wrong and they seemed grateful for having been educated on how their position would have hurt trans people.

They clearly were not being malicious, just ignorant of the struggles facing trans teenagers but utterly willing to learn.

Did they have lots of priors that I am not aware of?
Otherwise a sudden, unwarned 3 month ban for what they said, and then immediately reversed course on is insane.

 

[FeistyBoots]

This is infuriating. Fuck the UK government.

 

[Deleted member 20850]

The situation for British citizens living in Germany is even worse by the way.

It's next to impossible to follow the domestic route while not living in the UK. So the oversea route is the only way. Basically using the way to legally transition where you live.

But Germany only allows German citizens to use that unless the country someone comes from has no way to legally change gender.

So my British fiancee asked the German courts. They wanted confirmation from the British consulate here that she cannot change her gender marker. The British consulate says she can under the Gender Recognition Act and that it even accounts for British citizens abroad.

When she explained to the consulate that this constellation means she cannot use the oversea route she was told it doesn't matter if she personally can't use it and was advised to marry me as a man.

 

[Emmaginary]

TERFs are celebrating because of this (source warning: The Times)

Daily Mail, The Times, and a bunch of TERF websites are reporting / outright celebrating the predicted demise of the long overdue Gender Recognition Act reforms.

So after years of work and consultation it seems like the UK is going to keep things exactly as they are in my original post.

TERF Island wins again...

 

[Mr_Zombie]

Two years of evidenced experience of living full time as your gender. So a clean run of documents stretching back two years to demonstrate that you have been living full time as yourself. This can present problems, such as...

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How does that work when your documents still state the other gender? Can you live full time as a woman and still have papers (passport, driving license etc.) stating your gender as "male" or does changing your gender in offical papers do not require the Gender Recognition Certificate?

 

[Enterprise1701]

TERFs are celebrating because of this (source warning: The Times)

Daily Mail, The Times, and a bunch of TERF websites are reporting / outright celebrating the predicted demise of the long overdue Gender Recognition Act reforms.

So after years of work and consultation it seems like the UK is going to keep things exactly as they are in my original post.

TERF Island wins again...

Click to shrink...

More and more of the Terf people seem to be appearing and feeling more condident with their Transphobia, on Twitter I have had to block and report several people that I once followed due to them coming out as a terf, I generally only talk to fellow Star Trek fans as well and I was surprised how many of them came out as racist and Transphobic espcially when Star Trek Discovery came out. The UK is getting worse day by day.

FUCK TERFS!!

 

[Emmaginary]

How does that work when your documents still state the other gender? Can you live full time as a woman and still have papers (passport, driving license etc.) stating your gender as "male" or does changing your gender in offical papers do not require the Gender Recognition Certificate?

Click to shrink...

The UK is a mess for changing documents. Various things have various burdens of proof, some more strict than others.

Only the birth certificate (required for marriage) requires a Gender Recognition Certificate to be altered. Everything else in the UK can be changed through some simpler means, for example your name by deed poll (same for cis people) and your passport by written approval from a single gender specialist doctor.

Then, on top of your usual documents which cis people also have, the trans-exclusive GRC affords its own recognition that prevents trans people, in theory, from being sent to the wrong prison or given a pension at the wrong age. This makes the less than 2.45% of ownership of the GRC even more barbaric.

Your post does raise a good point. It is kind of tricky to swear under perjury oath, to have been living as your gender for two years continuously if some organisations and documents refuse to update their records accordingly. This can mean that in practice you have to wait more than two years, as, for example, banks can set their own individual standards for changing name and gender marker with them. Or, what if you live as your gender full time but the psychologist you have been waiting months and paying hundreds of pounds to see is not convinced your trans enough to help you get a passport? Your inability to present such documents due to the non-compliance of organisations could be held against you come GRC application time.

 

[Gleethor]

That's a lot of fucking hoops. It's extremely fucked that so much of this process seems to be in the hands of total strangers who probably care more about what you look like than how you feel.

 

[Deleted member 20850]

That's a lot of fucking hoops. It's extremely fucked that so much of this process seems to be in the hands of total strangers who probably care more about what you look like than how you feel.

Click to shrink...

I know different countries and all but all psychological evaluations I had to present so far also went into detail on how I dress and look and sound.

 

[Jakenbakin]

Wow this really sucks. I grew up in the UK from 2000-2009 and I had always thanked that experience for helping me develop into a more socially aware, liberally minded individual compared to a lot of views held by my home state and people from there. While I don't talk with anyone from there anymore I did once look through a friend's posts on Facebook and I was shocked at the transphobic arguments being posted by people my own age I had gone to school with. That's just so disappointing. I wish the UK could treat you better, it's humiliating and dehumanizing the way they treat individuals.

If someone wants to point out some irony in my belief of the UK informing me views, yes I'm aware there are still many problems in general there.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Realistically the only scenario where I can see any even marginally good reason to a require a diagnosis at all for gender dysphoria is for major medical procedures to ensure the person isn't being coerced or forced into it for some weird reason. And even that's iffy considering the risk scenario seems ludicrously fringe. Getting gender identity changed on legal documents should be a self ID process and there's literally no reason for this to not be the case

 

[Emmaginary]

Update on this egregious process:
The waiting times for Gender Recognition Certificate approval are now 5 months BEFORE coronavirus delays are taken into account.

So, to change your birth certificate in order to marry correctly as a trans person in the UK, you must do all of the hoop jumping outlined in the OP over this time period:

* 2 years of living exclusively and publicly as your gender / with your name.
* Apply, taking a period of five months just for two strangers to look at the arbitrary, gate-keeping documents they require of you.

So ~ 2 and a half years of waiting at minimum.

If you fail, you are locked out for 6 months and will need to reapply, at which point the waiting times will be even longer as they are increasing rapidly all the time.

It doesn't matter if you have had gender confirmation surgery. It doesn't matter if your passport has been changed. It doesn't matter if you are on hormone therapy. It doesn't matter how long you have been transitioned for already - 2 years with "solid evidence" is better than fifty years without.

You must have that 2 years of invasive evidence available and recent re-examination by a UK-registered doctor and then wait half a year for two strangers to spend less than one hour pouring over your life to make a decision based upon arbitrary, outmoded, gatekeeping criteria.

That's how you get married on TERF Island. If you are one of the 2.45% of trans people who can get married.

 

[Deleted member 20850]

What is important to note is that the planned reforms to the GRC process include a focus on 'protection of single sex spaces'.

That is worrying since it might very well mean the use of gendered spaces will be linked to a present GRC. It would certainly eliminate the TERF boogeyman of the cis man just identifying as a woman to harass in women's spaces.

A GRC would then be mandatory for daily life instead of only marriage. And then the resulting demand would skyrocket the waiting time to years instead of months.