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Raide

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
16,596
I feel like the biggest challenge is how to make end game feel rewarding and not just the same grind to get marginally better gear or items. I feel that a lot of games fail with making endgame enticing, where the journey of leveling is fun and then the end game content is always the same grind. It would be great to see developers try and create new approaches to keep players entertained.

What I would like to see ARPGs do more of is the idea that your character ends his story and passes traits on to his next generation. I know a few rogue likes have done that but as a way to make interesting new builds, not bound just by what equipment you have.
 

Elementje

Member
Dec 26, 2017
179
Most important things for me are actually the story and the characters! If these 2 don't keep me emotionally attached I get bored quickly and it turns into brainless grinding... That's actually the main reason most ARPG's don't keep me entertained for long. They turn into such a grind fest that you totally lose track of the story and why you're actually doing what you're doing. Sure it's fun to earn new abilities and better gear... but they are worth nothing when you get bored of the world you play in. For instance the Dark Souls games aren't known for their 'amazing' storyline... but their worlds are so lively and has so much hidden lore inside! It always keeps you wanting to reveal more of the mistery. Maybe the mistery is actually what makes it so good! So many theories and lore video's to find out there.

But then again, I'm just not a player who grinds endgame for the most rarest and top notch gear... I just want to experience and explore the world, engage into a story, find awesome loot and eventually put an end to it so I can play the next chapter/game(could be story dlc/addon).
Also co-op is important! Being able to play with friends makes the grinding parts a lot more entertaining. Make sure it's easy to play with other people who are not the exact same (power)level.
 
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Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,940
I've always wondered why "the endgame" is so important for these games.

What is it about loot driven games that creates the expectation that they should be played forever? Is it just historical precedent? Would it be so horrible if a game was amazing but finished in 20/30/40 hours rather than some endless grind that gets people to play them til they hate them?

This idea that you sink 20 hours into bullshit to get to "the real game" that is just playing the same content as before but with bigger numbers is so off putting. I feel like the audience expectation to be able to do that forever hurts the core design of these games.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Thomas, I hope your team can Ori-fi the ARPG scene. Balance the game so the upgrades are meaningful within the context of the environments and obstacles. Have fluid animations that are precise with the gameplay. Bring in top level artists that make artistically varied and interesting environments. Make the moment to moment gameplay more engaging but make it animation and timing based. Today's ARPGs are really good...but they are still a lot like yesterday's ARPGs. Today's ARPGs throw too much meaningless loot which usually just increases the numbers on a character but doesn't change the gameplay in any meaningful way. Today's ARPGs don't offer a lot of skill gap to allow people to outperform their character class (aka Soulsbourne) and they have a lot of samey looking environments.

Look forward to seeing what your team can do!
 

Filipus

Prophet of Regret
Avenger
Dec 7, 2017
5,132
I don't get what you are asking for @OP.
Are you talking Diablo-like RPGs or do you talk ARPGs in general? Because the ARPG genre sure did evolve a lot, maybe more than any other genre. Of course depending on what you are classifying as an "ARPG" or not an ARPG.

Anyways, I guess you are asking for Diablo-likes. The perfect Diablo-like would probably be Hades (which destroys every other Diablo-like game when it comes down to combat) combined with an interesting open world and a good, satisfying loot- and skill-systems to offer lots of interesting builds.

I'm with this man thomasmahler , I'm confused what you are actually asking about.
I feel the ARPG has gone in so many different directions that I'm even confused what qualifies as a ARPG anymore (action game where you can have branching abilities? Branching story?).

Because you give the Diablo example but then talk about how no one has innovated. So do you want to innovate in the Diablo genre?
Because stuff like Borderlands could be considered exactly that (a looter shooter with RPG elements).

So... what are your guys plans?? Give us the leaks haha
 

diablogg

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,269
I've always wondered why "the endgame" is so important for these games.

What is it about loot driven games that creates the expectation that they should be played forever? Is it just historical precedent? Would it be so horrible if a game was amazing but finished in 20/30/40 hours rather than some endless grind that gets people to play them til they hate them?

This idea that you sink 20 hours into bullshit to get to "the real game" that is just playing the same content as before but with bigger numbers is so off putting. I feel like the audience expectation to be able to do that forever hurts the core design of these games.

I mean it just depends on how the game's designed. I don't think there's anything wrong with the game basically being over after 20 hours after you kill the end boss. If your game is gonna be close to a Diablo let's say, people are gonna have expectations for what they can do once the story is "over." Again I don't think there's anything wrong with it ending after 20 hours, but I'm sure fans of the genre will most likely be disappointed if they're not able to keep grinding away once it ends if that's what they're inclined to do.
 

Exentryk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,236
Let's just imagine for a second that you could dream up an Online Multiplayer RPG
Don't think my thoughts are relevant here since you're making an online game, but anyway...
  1. Game should be designed to be playable single player. As I don't play online multiplayer games, this one thing will basically rule-out the game for me without even looking at what it offers.
  2. Game should focus on narrative. Without a good story hook and a good narrative, everything just becomes pointless and I just don't care about doing anything.
  3. Combat:
    • The core action combat should feel powerful and impactful. Enemies should have good hit reaction and there should be animation cancelling so that it all feels responsive and good.
    • There should be lots of build possibilities, especially builds that can become overpowered. Being able to create and share builds can extend the life of a game immensely.
    • There should be a good magic system in the game. This topic alone could be its own thread, but what I prefer is having spells being cast quickly (so no long casting durations), and spells not having too long of a cooldown after use. This allows a build that can be focussed purely on spells. Some good examples of what I mean includes Kingdom Hearts and Witcher 3, but go even beyond these.
    • Consider involving abilities/magic to interact with the world as well. So imagine casting Ice magic and then having the water in the lake freeze that you can walk over.
    • o2WB4jz.gif
    • Have faster and fluid world traversal. Something like NieR Automata with its butter smooth movement and that glorious dodge that flowed so well into movement (on ground and in air), or perhaps something like FFXV's teleporting but doing that outside of combat for movement, or perhaps Kingdom Hearts' Flowmotion (see gif below)
    • EnlightenedFlashyIaerismetalmark.gif
    • All the game's actions should be accessible immediately via the controller buttons. This means no weapon/ability wheels or the like that break or slow down the flow of combat. Think more shortcut buttons and less menus.
That's a few things that come to mind right now. Might update later. Thanks, and good luck.
 
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Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,159
I've always wondered why "the endgame" is so important for these games.

What is it about loot driven games that creates the expectation that they should be played forever? Is it just historical precedent? Would it be so horrible if a game was amazing but finished in 20/30/40 hours rather than some endless grind that gets people to play them til they hate them?

This idea that you sink 20 hours into bullshit to get to "the real game" that is just playing the same content as before but with bigger numbers is so off putting. I feel like the audience expectation to be able to do that forever hurts the core design of these games.
The idea is more about the game being deep enough to support deep experimentation in where you want to play for hundreds of hours more cause you want to test different builds. I think a lot of devs nowadays abuse the grind to just have the numbers go up forever and ever without it actually providing a different feel in playstyle.

Also the grind as long as it's kept reasonable is what helps give meaning to these builds in the same way a bossfight can have higher meaning for beating it to a player if they challenged that player in a good way. This is mostly based on my experience from playing games that allowed switching with 0 cost(the cost doesn*'t need to be punishingly high which would be also bad) to the player and testing different builds kind of feels less meaningful.

Monster Hunter I feel represents this idea of endgame grind and switching to explore different styles of play really well. To switch you need to invest into hunting materials for a new set of weapons and sometimes armor pieces to support those weapons. But it's all reasonable and then you go into another loop of hunting with different gameplay because of that switch. Hades as a roguelike is a similar idea for me but incredibly condensed. It's all about exploring different builds and the builds become meaningful by having gone through a sort of struggle to get there. Borderlands 2 to me was the absolute worst version of that idea where it indeed just felt like it's just about the numbers going up.

Not sure I did a good job of trying to explain this...
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
Would it be so horrible if a game was amazing but finished in 20/30/40 hours rather than some endless grind that gets people to play them til they hate them?
It wouldn't be horrible but most games these days aren't really difficult so there's practically little point in finding and tweaking and upgrading all your loot and gear if everything's over after the endboss falls. If you put hours and hours in tweaking your stats and making an awesome build that works way beyond what the let's call it "base content" (as opposed to endgame) is requiring from you, people expect something more and something to do afterwards. If the difficulty level demands that you have to improve your gear significantly throughout the whole game, from the very beginning to the very end, it's a different story and beating the final boss is satisfying enough. Then again it depends on what kind of ARPG we're talking about. Is it even a heavily loot-focused game like Diablo, Grim Dawn and the like, or something like The Witcher, Elex, Dark Souls, etc where you either play solely for the story or getting to see the end is difficult and challenging enough. But I also have no doubt there are people playing Diablo only for the story as well and once the finished it there done with it.

The other argument is that people, especially these days, kind of expect some sort of ongoing support even it's only seasons, daily and weekly challenges (it doesn't even have to be full (paid) game expansions). From a developer/publisher perspective you also bond with your community over the years because these games are typically very active in that regard and you may maintain a healthy player-base for years to come which could really help your brand/labels/IPs.
I feel like the biggest challenge is how to make end game feel rewarding and not just the same grind to get marginally better gear or items. I feel that a lot of games fail with making endgame enticing, where the journey of leveling is fun and then the end game content is always the same grind. It would be great to see developers try and create new approaches to keep players entertained.
I'm with you on this one. Sure it is be fun to fiddle around with some mechanics at the endgame, but if you boil it down, for instance in Diablo 3, it's only about what Greater Rift you manage to beat and in what time. They added some more stuff over the year you can or have to do in order to improve your equip even further, but it all boils down to the same thing: Doing higher level rifts or beat them faster. It's like a highscore, but the endgame rarely offers real content you haven't seen before, like additionally unlocked chapters, quests, locations. They could have added, for instance, a chapter or quest strand with some kind of fixed difficulty, let's say Torment XV, and you can't just switch the difficulty level, so in order to see that content, new lore, new characters, new stories you have to get better. That way the grind would feel more rewarding instead of just doing the same thing/locations/rifts over and over again but faster and/or with higher numbers (in damage output etc.).
 

Rurunaki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,573
Nioh's combat with Soulsbourne lore building and world structure i.e. Sekiro but leaning heavily towards Nioh's combat (by the demo, Nioh 2 has improved of this even further.)

Doesn't have to be feudal japan setting. I would like to think that there is room for medieval/lovecraftian setting with combat akin to Nioh's.
 

LossAversion

The Merchant of ERA
Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,713
Would story be important to you?
Personally, I think that crafting a unique world that feels like it has a concrete identity is more important than the story itself. The story should facilitate the grind more than anything. Having great characters and dialogue is going to help any game though. The problem with focusing too much on the story in an ARPG is that we're likely going to be playing through the story more than once. I think creating a world that can be expanded upon with new quests using established characters and areas would be a better approach than having the player grind through the same story over and over again.

What would you like to see in terms of combat?
Obviously you want the combat to feel good. It's easier said than done but... responsive controls go a long way, synergy between skills is always rewarding, and a steady sense of progression can make or break an ARPG. Making sure that each class feels distinct is also a major factor for me. And if you can also create synergy between different classes then that can add a lot to the experience. There's also a delicate balance between depth and fun. Some players might enjoy a massive skill tree with endless possibilities but the prospect of that just makes my eyes glaze over. Giving the player options within each class is good but not to the point where it feels like leveling up requires hours of research. At the same time, classes can be way too simple. Destiny being an example of that in my opinion.

How important is the Diablo'ish Endgame to you?
If you want the game to have an extended life then obviously players will need a carrot to chase after. All grind and no gains is just a waste of time though. If the game feels good to play then that is the most important thing. If I enjoy the gameplay then I will want to grind for that cool robe or that legendary staff. Grinding for the sake of grinding (as in... kill these enemies on a harder difficulty so that you can kill these enemies on an even harder difficulty as you watch your stats go up incrementally over and over again) is no fun at all. There needs to be specific rewards and goals to chase after. Be they cosmetics, unique gear, or even special titles for your character.

How about Level Design, is procedural generation vital in these kinda games to you?
I think some degree of procedural generation can be a good thing but as with most things, it should be done in moderation. Personally speaking, I enjoy running through areas that I know like the back of my hand. Especially if the world design is well done. Procedural areas tend to blur together and the game becomes less memorable for it. I think adding some procedural generation to the quests, enemies, etc. is a better option. And perhaps making modifications to existing areas as more content is added to the game.

What do you expect in terms of loot from an ARPG?
Again, there's a delicate balance to be found here. I don't want to be wearing the same gear forever but I also want new gear to last long enough to make it meaningful when I acquire it. If gear is dropping all of the time then it becomes a hassle to manage your inventory. It should feel exciting every time you get an upgrade to your gear. Customization is always a good thing as well. Even something as simple as letting me dye my gear is appreciated.

What keeps you playing these games for years on end?
Gameplay is king. The game simply needs to be fun to play. I haven't touched on this yet but good co-op can really extend the life of an ARPG. If it's easy to run a dungeon/mission with friends and strangers alike, then I can stick with a game forever.

Are there things from games like Souls, Monster Hunter or Breath of the Wild you'd love to see within this genre?
Hub areas. I love good hub areas. Having all of your main mechanics available in one cool hub area feels great. Leveling up, working on gear, setting up multiplayer, talking to quest givers, etc. It's super easy to hop into Monster Hunter for a hunt or two and then call it a day which makes me more likely to stick with the game for the long haul. My dream ARPG would combine the dungeons/classes of WoW with the structure of Monster Hunter: World. I'm here to grind, level up my character, and play with friends so cut out the fat. Give me a nice hub area, a few big areas outside of the hub area for missions/training/events, and lots of dungeons to run through. Also, let me create a custom character so everyone isn't running around as the same four character models.
 
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Oct 28, 2017
101
I'd appreciate distinct skills and magic which aren't just the same as the other but with different animation or different spell color.

A proper skill tree.

Meaningful loot. When you find a rare or legendary, it has to be a special moment.

Map design. Not just the same plain with grass or sand skin. In my opinion, out of isometric games Darksiders Genesis did this very well.

A possibility to redistribute skill points.
 

Sotha_Sil

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,067
Really cool that you're making this thread thomasmahler. Wish we had more developers be this open. Here's my 5, by category:

Sotha Sil's* critical elements to good RPG design

1. Branching narratives / player agency

2. Skill checks that can alter how the world reacts to the player (dialog options, quest solutions, gating sections of the world off). See Fallout New Vegas, Fallout 3, KOTOR, KOTOR 2, PoE, etc.

Personal Preferences in RPGs

3. Avoid procedural generation as much as possible! I'm sure it's useful in the early stages to lay the groundwork for an open world, but every world needs handcrafted elements to feel right.

4. Avoid enemy/loot scaling at all costs. Oblivion and The Witcher 3 are the games that come to mind here. Tweaking this would have made both games much better than they are.

Sotha Sil's RPG design Wishlist

5. Don't immediately put us on the main quest. Have it kick in once you're at a high enough level (or some other metric), and once it starts, you can't go off on side quests because the MQ should be the most important thing going on. This would solve almost all the narrative issues (why level 1 characters get entrusted with monumental tasks, potentially ignoring the MQ during seemingly critical moments, etc) with open world RPGs. I can't think of a game that has actually done this, yet.
 

alundra311

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,233
Also how about a diablo clone which isn't ominous, dark, medieval fantasy. Maybe a scifi setting would be neat.
Seeing as you have a Warhammer 40k avatar, you've probably heard about/played Warhammer 40k Inquisitor Martyr. Still ominous and dark but has a Sci-fi setting so maybe it counts.
 

Tatsu91

Banned
Apr 7, 2019
3,147
For an ARPG the three most important points imo

1. Fun combat as it should be fun to play like even if you suck at souls game they are fun to play

2. Loot should be good as small amount of weapons or loot can lead to it getting boring fast so many different styles should be a must

3. Lastly Bosses are pretty much the best part of action RPGs whether you like them hard like souls or Flashy and fun like KH I'd say they are arguably very important
 

crazillo

Member
Apr 5, 2018
8,185
Not sure this will fit with a Diablo hack and slay style of game, but I certainly know my RPGs well enough. I'll just say that I really want good exploration and a sense of discovery in RPGs. I'd rather have a smaller world/hub which is full of intersecting quests over a large bloated open world. I'd rather like to explore hidden paths to find a rare weapon/item than have good loot randomized. I'd prefer not to have quest markers for everything, but go back to actual landmarks and directions that the player shall follow. The clues can still be written down in the journal. And why not have NPCs trick you every once in a while, too? Oh, and I'd like not for everything to be scripted at certain spots: Why not meet the lone wanderer with his quest at different locations? Why not drawing from games like Majora's Mask who did different things at different times of the day? Apparently, Pathologic 2 was quite interesting in this regard, but I haven't played it yet. Why not have the environment impact combat more again? No game has done it since Dark Messiah of Might & Magic in like 2006. I'd also be in favor to have quests be meaningful in the way that decisions lead to different ways of solving quests. One could even go so far to make auto-saves so that replayability is increased. Devs do not want to lock out players from content but if (as you say) everyone solves the same quests, it's also quite boring.

In short, more ELEX, Outward, Morrowind and Dark Messiah of Might & Magic but in a good, more polished, more modern way.
 

Darkstorne

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,823
England
What would be the 5 big focus points you'd love to see a developer tackle?

Would story be important to you? What would you like to see in terms of combat? How important is the Diablo'ish Endgame to you? How about Level Design, is procedural generation vital in these kinda games to you? What do you expect in terms of loot from an ARPG? What keeps you playing these games for years on end? Are there things from games like Souls, Monster Hunter or Breath of the Wild you'd love to see within this genre? Just think of anything that might pop into your head - If you're playing todays RPGs, are there things that bother you that you'd love to tell a developer about? Do any games have any systems that you're absolutely in love with that you'd like to tell me about?
Really awesome of you to reach out like this, and I agree that it's a shame to see so many games in the genre essentially say "this is how Diablo did it, so this is how it must be done". I feel like MMOs suffer the same issue, where they all look at WoW and include so many MMO staples as though a game can't work without them. I think my 5 points to consider would be:

1) Multiplayer at all times - Just because this seems to be the "next big thing" for Diablo 4. I'm not convinced it's a good idea. If you pursue this route, please ask yourselves "does the presence of other players add or detract from the experience right now?" in every gameplay situation. It's where MMOs like The Elder Scrolls Online and SWTOR made mistakes imo. The MMO genre is shifting heavily towards solo play for 90+% of the time, with optional group content mostly at end game (dungeons, raids, PVP etc). And now Blizzard wants to add a similar MMO flavour to ARPGs with Diablo 4. But while running into other players around specifically designed group events (world bosses, group-designed dungeons, limited time open world events like Guild Wars 2 had etc) is a time when other players are helpful, there are definitely times when being surrounded by them is a hindrance: Dungeons designed for solo play, but you happen to be in here at the same time as someone else so now the difficulty is trivial; Quests where the devs are tacitly asking you to pretend the other players don't exist, because the quest giver is acting like you're the sole hero and the only one helping them out right now; towns and open world environments where the atmosphere and immersion can be hindered by other players with their shiny end-game armour and MTX flaming wings running around in circles. I would love an MMO developer to be brave enough to restrict MMO elements to key areas, like only a handful of (or maybe even only one) social hubs, and content specifically designed for groups, phasing you into and out of group servers when needed, but keeping the game world mostly solo. It would allow them to solve with MMO issues like respawns, mob density, quest outcomes (big changes to locations that reflect your decisions are almost impossible) etc, and I think they'd be praised for it. It would also raise questions as to whether it's "truly" an MMO, but so be it if the game is better for it and the big group content and social hubs are still there. So certainly when it comes to adding MMO elements to an ARPG, consider whether it actually improves the game, and perhaps use it sparingly if you use it at all.

2) Character Creator - I have no idea why this still hasn't happened properly in an ARPG. I know we play these games from a zoomed out perspective where our character is hard to see in detail outside of vanity cams, but gamers obsess over character appearance in first person games like TES, Fallout, and Destiny, where we see even less of our avatars than we do in ARPGs. I have no doubt that a great CC in an ARPG will be really appreciated, and become a distinguishing feature to stand out against the crowd of ARPGs without this feature. We all know how popular transmog/fashion systems are in these games now - it's clearly a feature that would be loved.

3) World Design and its use in End Game - As a fan of lore and world building, I think open worlds can add a lot to immersion and environmental story telling, and I think ARPGs are a great fit for it if you can look past the "Diablo didn't do it that way though" mindset. It's always seemed like a great next step to me for the genre, so I'm happy to see Diablo 4 pursuing it, but sad that they're also filling it with so many players concurrently. While I think procedural dungeons are important to the genre, for the loot grind in an endlessly replayable short-burst game mode, I think a slower-paced open world end game system can be popular too. Especially coupled with player-housing and/or town building, if the open world is used for resource gathering and hunting down new building plans. There are players that adore creative building systems (just look at Fallout 4's Settlement creations in a Google search), and Wolcen demonstrates well how a town construction system can play out as another form of progression, unlocking and upgrading buildings with specific benefits. I think open worlds offer a lot of opportunities to ARPGs for those reasons.

4) Combat "Feel" and Boss Fights - Animation quality, screen shake, visual effects. It's so important to hooking players in right from the start, and when combat is something we spend so much time engaged in with this genre, it's really important to get it right. Diablo and Wolcen both do a great job at this, and Path of Exile 2 seems to be making it a big priority. I'd also like to praise the end-of-chapter boss fights in Wolcen here, because whereas Diablo's bosses still tend to be fairly easy to battle mechanically, and the only challenge comes from raising the game difficulty level (which merely increases boss HP and damage), Wolcen has created some fantastic multi-phase boss battles that really require you to pay attention, much like Dark Souls bosses do. I loved having to actually try and win for a change =P Made the victories feel amazing. Path of Exile 2 also seems to be focusing a lot on boss mechanics and multi-phase battles, but it's too early to see how well they've handled them. It's definitely a direction I appreciate though, over mostly face-tanking bosses and not standing in stupid the Diablo way.

5) Build Diversity - Probably the most important one for me, because I love theory-crafting! I get that Path of Exile's passive tree looks terrifying to some people, but it looks amazing to me. I do think there's a lot that could be done to condense it though, without simplifying it. There are a huge number of tiny stat increases on separate nodes, and I often think I wouldn't mind at all if clusters of them were condensed into one node that you could invest 5-10 points into, massively reducing the size of the grid. That's not an easy change PoE could make, because it then makes moving across the board to the big nodes far faster, but if it was something a new game wanted to design around from the start - a far less daunting passive tree in appearance, but with just as many skill point investment choices - I think that could be a great compromise. I also want to stress how much I love the class-less (or mostly class-less) systems in PoE and Wolcen. I get that classes have become a big part of Diablo's identity, but build freedom is so much more exciting when you can mix-and-match skills and weapons and playstyles imo.

Good luck with the game! I love how open you are about challenging genre staples going into this, so I can't wait to see what you all come up with =)
 

StormEagle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
673
First and most important, look too much at Souls stuff unless you are making a Dark Souls clone and I think we are not missing those right now.
Procedural generated levels are inferior to well-crafted ones and only favorable for places you have to grind. I you are making a Diablo-clone with heavy emphasis on endgame loops, design that part separately with its own (procedurally generated maps) and have the campaign be a more crafted experience. Another idea is to have the difficulty of a game be adjustable at every story beat and quest. Have the base difficulty easy enough that players don't need to have meta builds. Give the option to increase difficulty (more enemies, stronger enemies) for those that feel they are too strong. And let higher difficulties have higher rewards.
Also one thing I like most about action RPGs in contrast to turn-based RPGs is the ability to avoid taking damage. If I play skillfully I should be able to get through an encounter without taking damage. Dark Souls didn't invent this and this is possible without copying souls combat.

A point that fits to all kinds of action (and tun-based) RPGs: Avoiding the billionth iteration on the same old fantasy setting.

In a more general RPG direction, there are RPG systems outside of the D&D trappings. In particular there are alternatives to filling up (xp) bars to hit discrete power up points (levels). One thing I love about Bloodlines, that is taken from the World of Darkness RPG systems, is the abolition of levels. You buy your Attributes/Skills/Disciplines with XP points directly. You also have less XP and only get it for meaningful tasks, like quest completion. And it varies on what you actually did. Did you take the easy way out? You get less XP. Did you go deeper, find a secret quirk in the quest and use it? You get rewarded. This does not work well for diablo-clones, I know.
If you want to go even further: An optional rule of the P&P that I loved (but was not used like this in Bloodlines) is that your character only improves what they actually used/trained. E.g. Stabbing dudes does not make your character better at reading or cooking only at stabbing dudes. Your character has to use skills to improve them. Elder Scrolls does something similar.

Other great things from Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines:
Varied approaches. You have different ways to get to your goal. Fight, sneak, charm/speak, smart or other your way to victory. Not all paths have to be available for everything and sometimes you need combinations, but there should always be more than one way to fulfill a quest.
Level design and variety. Have a variety of areas and quests differing in tone, style, mood and visuals.
 

mxbison

Banned
Jan 14, 2019
2,148
For me most important would be:
  • There is nothing wrong with traditional classes.
  • Well designed loot. It's oviously too much work to handcraft all of it, but there should be special rewards for special parts of the games. Not just all random with some stat multipliers.
  • Your spending most of the time hitting monsters, it has to feel good.
  • Reward exploration.
  • I would greatly prefer handcrafted levels. I usually don'r replay games so I'm probably in the minority here.
 

castaction

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,229
1- gameplay/combat
2-good skill tree so we can have differents builds
3-loots , always loved diablo loots for set that gave you more bonuses
Been playing torchlight 2 on the switch and i love that skill get new bonuse every 5 point that invest
 

Rhaknar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
42,604
are we talking about the diablo / torchlight / path of exile/ etc style of action rpg?

I had NO idea Moon Studios was working on such a thing if so.
 

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,915
Seeing as you have a Warhammer 40k avatar, you've probably heard about/played Warhammer 40k Inquisitor Martyr. Still ominous and dark but has a Sci-fi setting so maybe it counts.

I was thinking something not as dark/ominous which seems to be the go-to for any diablo clone. If it's not demons then it's occult and if it's not occult then it's cthulu. Always dark themes.
Maybe something like a Dune setting where you can get bright scifi architecture and environments, the squabbles are political and personal in nature (nothing demonic/deities and such), you have lasers and swords. But a setting that is not dystopian/cyberpunk.
 

ScOULaris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,624
I've always wondered why "the endgame" is so important for these games.

What is it about loot driven games that creates the expectation that they should be played forever? Is it just historical precedent? Would it be so horrible if a game was amazing but finished in 20/30/40 hours rather than some endless grind that gets people to play them til they hate them?

This idea that you sink 20 hours into bullshit to get to "the real game" that is just playing the same content as before but with bigger numbers is so off putting. I feel like the audience expectation to be able to do that forever hurts the core design of these games.
Yeah, I feel the same, but I recognize that there is an audience out there for that infinite-loot-grind design. It just doesn't appeal to me at all. I find it mind-numbing.
 

Mentok

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,601
I mainly play RPGs, and I've always based them off of the following:

1) Build variety for replay ability - While I tend to focus on shorter RPGs (those I don't need to play for over 100 hours), the biggest factor that keeps me coming back is build variety. I LOVE trying out different builds, heck it was what catapulted Dark Souls into one of my most played games of all time.

2) Gameplay - Since it is an action RPG, the actual combat needs to be interesting and has to feel good (in terms of flow, movement, weightiness of weapons). Especially if you are going to implement magic, as I feel very few games strike the right balance with using magical abilities.

3) Loot and gear - Similar to different builds, I also love it when a character actually looks different as you equip new gear (rather than simply equipping different items but your character looking the same). I also love over-the-top unique gear that makes you look like a badass as you progress. Interesting gear and weapons drive me to explore the world more.

4) Exploration - An interesting world to explore, regardless of size, will always have my attention over something that is massive but generic. The ability to explore new, unique areas is a must.

I hope that my $0.02 helps, and I definitely look forward to playing your game when it comes out!
 

Sumio Mondo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,935
United Kingdom
Turn the genre on its head (too many ARPGs follow a standard procedure nowadays). I like having weapon variety and just variety in general is important (enemy variety as well). Add in weird music. Make the protagonists of the story insane. Give the game a dark flavour. Shake it all up then release it.

So like, give me Drakengard 4 (or remake the first one), but with good gameplay.
 

Mercador

Member
Nov 18, 2017
2,840
Quebec City
One of the best ARPG I played in the last decade was Kingdom of Amalur, it was quite a bad timing (a few months after Skyrim) but it had everything I liked in an ARPG; content, content and content. The gameplay loop of an ARPG should always be an incremental one in my opinion, so loot that goes better and better. You feel your character is getting stronger and getting the nice next loot is enticing. Torchlight comes in mind as well. Both games were polished, it was fun and there was quite a lot of content in them. No need to play thousands of hours like PoE to get the fun. I almost purchased Wolcen but it was too rough to my liking from what I read/saw. No need to be genre novator or ground breaking, just a simple ARPG with good content is all I ask.
 

BennyWhatever

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,798
US
I've been thinking about this since I saw this post, and wanted to throw my two cents in.

My favorite action RPGs are ones where gameplay is the core and the story/lore is there to supplement the gameplay. In other words, the gameplay is part of the story. Not so much that your actions create branches in a story tree, but that there's a living, breathing world around you and you are a player in that world; all the while a story is unfolding in the background.

My favorite action RPGs are Devil May Cry (series) and Monster Hunter (legacy series, so GenU, 4U, 3U). The incredibly intricate gameplay coupled with difficult challenges let you know that your skill is the most important, but the combat is so varied that there are always multiple ways to tackle a tough obstacle. They all have amazing boss fights (I mean, that's basically the entirety of monster hunter) that you can repeat over and over in new playstyles.

The big thing for me, however, is the post-game. Once the "main story" is done, if the gameplay has its hooks in me, I don't want to be done. I love Monster Hunter for this, because GU has already given me 300 hours of post game content and I'm not even done yet. Couple that with meeting some great people online to hunt with and the massive amounts of weapon style and combinations, and I keep coming back for more. The "story" is still there for those that want to look for it, but the post game is PURE gameplay, challenge, and loot. I guess I never mentioned loot - that's the excuse I use to repeat the gameplay formula over and over. I enjoy finding that Rathalos Mantle, yes, but more importantly, I love finding new ways to fight a Rathalos and to do it as fast and fun as possible.

So given that, here are my 5 points:
  1. Gameplay first, story to supplement the gameplay.
  2. Lengthy post-game content
  3. Multiple ways to play the game
  4. Meaningful loot that you enjoy grinding for.
  5. Being able to do all the above with friends as well as solo.

2. Unlimited inventories
OMG this right here. I definitely understand having an item limit while like "out in the field" battling, but your in-home box should never have an inventory limit. That's super anti-fun and is just a meaningless confinement that serves no purpose but artificial difficulty.
 
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May 9, 2018
240
I had a dream recently where I was playing an ARPG where you could parry enemy attacks like in Sekiro. Waking up, I was very sad that this game does not exist. I think that type of active defensive game mechanic could be a great addition to the genre. Since I'm not a game developer I'm throwing my idea out there for someone to make it into a real game. I would buy it in a heartbeat!
 

SephLuis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,343
The concept of ARPG is just so broad nowadays that I think it would be more effective to start listing the games that were influential to you and how they evolved. For example, you listed Diablo as your ARPG standard, while to me it's something closer to a Tales of game, Vagrant Story, etc. Completely different approaches towards the same genre.

The few ideas I had for an ARPG started with the setting and then moved to gameplay systems that better fit the setting.
Balancing the action and rpg aspects of it in the design is challenging. You don't want your game to become an action title with numbers popping out, nor a pure RPG game where the action part nearly becomes irrevelant. Fiding this middle ground is what I, personally, would strive for where you need to plan before combat, but the RPG mechanics are deep enough for the player to adapt his/her strategy mid-fight and the action part supports and needs the RPG part to open up it's full potential.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,583
Would story be important to you? What would you like to see in terms of combat? How important is the Diablo'ish Endgame to you? How about Level Design, is procedural generation vital in these kinda games to you? What do you expect in terms of loot from an ARPG? What keeps you playing these games for years on end? Are there things from games like Souls, Monster Hunter or Breath of the Wild you'd love to see within this genre? Just think of anything that might pop into your head - If you're playing todays RPGs, are there things that bother you that you'd love to tell a developer about? Do any games have any systems that you're absolutely in love with that you'd like to tell me about?
I could not possibly - possibly - care less about the story, as I've found 99.9% of game stories to be absolute trash, and I'm not going to waste my extremely limited game playing time sitting through cutscenes trying to find out if this one is going to be one in a thousand.

Combat, on the other hand, is incredibly important. What I like seeing here is threefold:
  • I want to see action treated as, well, action, not a floaty version of RPG systems which just so happen to work in real time. By that I mean, I expect to see precision behind things like blocking, I want there to be frame perfect reflect abilities, I want to see movement abilities which actually remain balanced, and overall, I want to see the ability to destroy the game with the absolute worst gear if the person is sufficiently skilled.
  • I want to see things feel different. No MOBA esque ability design, where one takes a projectile or basic attack+movement and slaps a buff/element on it, please. I want a sword to feel like a sword; I want an axe to feel like an axe; I want those two things to feel completely different, before you start weaving in all the special moves, which should then feel even *more* different. Wacky buffs and debuffs aren't what I'm talking about. Fire vs ice isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the difference in feeling between, say, Sora's Wisdom Drive Form vs his Anti Drive Form. Actual functionally distinct differences for how the play engages things before worrying about the RPG systems. If you remove all the stats, all the behind the scenes stuff, and two things play the same, something has gone wrong.
  • Please design the encounters right. Enemies who simply swell in stats are boring. Enemies whose attacks are just the same thing but now 4 projectiles instead of 3 are boring. I want to see real dynamacism here; special weakspots which allow players to, say, steal a mech; enemies who grow stronger as their friends are killed; enemies who gain more moves as more of them exist together. Then, when those all feel distinct, the blend of them has to be considered, not just thrown at a player based on some random generator. What do you want the player to do, and why?
Endgame is whatever. I don't really get to endgames or have a lot of time to spend with them; once I finish a game, odds are I'm never going to touch it again. When you say "ARPG", do you just mean "game like Diablo"? I ask because of course that's not the entirety of the ARPG world. Much more important is to not only save the really interesting scenarios until the endgame, and I do mean interesting scenarios. Like the combat portion, this is to say that simply offering a new floor of a dungeon with some buffed enemies isn't enough; I want to see things get crazy. Timers, fighting alongside an army, some [light] stealth stuff, sections where your power levels are off the charts because of an energy surge of whatever, puzzle sections, etc etc.

Loot I want to feel very different. Again I assume that you mean in Diablo sense, but Diablo or Dark Souls or Kingdom Hearts or whatever, what I can tell you is that is if the only way I can feel impactful is to gather up 10 little stat boosts over the course of 10 different items in 10 paper doll slots to feel like something has changed, that's not a stuck landing. This is where you can put all those goofy buffs and elemental shifts I was talking about shouldn't form the basis of move distinctions, but generally speaking, if I get a stat change and it's less than, say, 20%, it's going to feel pointless.

Games and systems therein I especially liked:
  • Dark Souls 1: Level design; World design; bosses; gear except for armor; encounter design
  • Dark Souls 2: Build variety; gear
  • BotW: Climbing; Korok puzzles; elemental interplay; for the love of god do not include weapon breaking
  • Monster Hunter: Bosses; verticality; distinct feel of action
  • Kingdom Hearts 2: Action gameplay; endgame bosses; distinct feel of action
  • Divinity: Original Sin 2: [not an ARPG] quest open-endedness; environmental interaction/elemental interplay; build variety; purpose of stats beyond numerical checks
  • Diablo 3: Skill design; talent design; level design and enemy design absolutely sucked
  • Darksiders 2: Level design; puzzles; skill tree kinda; build variety
  • Mass Effect 3: Enemy design and reactibility; weapon design
  • Borderlands 2: Enemy design and reactibility; encounter design; gear design
  • Bloodborne: Level design; world design
  • Morrowind/Oblivion: Tracking schedules; world interactivity; enemy design and combat was miserable
  • Torchlight 2: Skill progression depth
  • Tales of the Abyss: Field of Fonons system
  • Okami: Length alongside different scenarios; ability design; sidequests; please make it more challenging than Okami at least
 

Deleted member 56306

User-requested account closure
Banned
Apr 26, 2019
2,383
I would like to see an ARPG that offers a set of tools with the flexibility of DOS2 and the systems interactions of BOTW.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,950
-If you're going with a Diablo style ARPG I'd love something akin to Torchlight's Pet, where you can send them into town to sell off unwanted items/loot.

- I'd want something in the traditional ARPG sense.

- I don't want Souls style combat. I want to enjoy myself, not play Souls knockoff #482. I want to tear through hordes of enemies, not dance around with a couple characters. I love how fast and fluid Diablo 3 feels.

- Meaty single player please. Online is great, but I don't care about playing with others online. Also, it's nice to have tons to do after the credits roll. These are the kinds of games you can just keep playing.

- I remember playing Super Ghouls n Ghosts and the stage had this terraforming, where things just opened up and enemies would appear. It would be interesting to have levels that feature terraforming, that open up new pathways that lead to other stages. It'd be interesting if not everything could be seen in one play through.

- Monsters to ride a la Golden Axe. I don't think it's been done much but it's be pretty cool to have moments where you're riding a monster destroying enemy villages, swiping groups of enemies with a tail, until your monster succumbs to the incoming damage. Perhaps only monsters are strong enough to break open more secret sections?

- Changing perspective. What about switching up the view to more of a third person game when entering caves or other close quarter areas? Maybe something along the lines of Remnant From the Ashes. Just an idea.
 

YukiroCTX

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,996
I'm more of a Third person ARPG rather than Top Down I'd say that Story is a nice have for the genre, it doesn't need a direct story telling but indirectly with in depth lore that ties in with the surrounding characters, levels, enemies would go a long way for sustaining interest.

Things I generally look for in the genre are diversity of environments, unique bosses and combat systems, less random item and enemy placements but more carefully considered in how it fits with the overall environment. Also important that the games stop wasting players time with filler content. I guess what constitutes the later can vary but the key would be providing as much options for players. An example would kind of be like the The monster/mech genre which is full of games which requires players to do tasks involving fighting/clearing low level enemies. The Bosses help hide the deficiencies in some of the games and adding content that is devoid of them while not drastically improving other aspects makes for a real waste of time going through some really drab, recycled environments for missions, with uninteresting level design for players to explore that doesn't really add much to the story while also not having any significant rewards. I do think at the least that the MH type games tend to actually deviate a lot from a visual and gameplay perspective from which it takes inspiration from. Like for example, Soul Sacrifice Delta has a complete different aesthetic and designs, combat system that revolves around spells and upgrading them, progression/mission presented via lore book telling the story and events so structurally different.

Also about Bosses, I agree that I hate ones revolving around stats rather than dynamically changing movesets and some which become a battle of attrition where nothing really changes but the health bar is just huge and slowly chipping away at it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,495
Henderson, NV
My opinion on ARPGs is limited. Not nearly as expansive as all of the PC people on this board. I've always been a console guy. Baldurs Gate: DA, Record of Lodoss, that Everquest game, and Diablo III.

I was attracted to the genre initially because I love the idea of swarms of enemies and lots of pyrotechnics. Almost like Smash TV but with lore and more enemy types. I play a lot of Diablo III on my Switch, and while fun, it's just a mindless arcade romp. I play it more passively to kill time than being really engaged. I feel like I'm mostly item managing than following a story or being invested in the feel of the game. It's fun, but not what I want.

lately, i've wanted a lot more atmosphere and story. Also real tactical strategy. Even light on-the-fly team mapping like in a JRPG or MMO where someone tanks, someone heals, and someone ranges. Or like Alienation where the requirement of physical input skill makes a difference in gameplay advancement.

Also, I'd love a real story with dialogue bits that feel more like 2d jrpgs. I guess I always imagined a game somewhere between Zelda: Link to past with customization, deep lore, lots of pyrotechnics, and multiplayer than what I've gotten. Zelda meets Diablo III, I guess.

Does such a thing even exist?
 

T0kenAussie

Member
Jan 15, 2020
5,101
If I could have 1 vote it would be a family mode and couch co op. My kids like playing to help me but I want to be able to feasibly carry them through the story ala fable legends
 

Vex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,213
These two people ppetty much summed up what I wouldve said, but in a much better way.

I've always wondered why "the endgame" is so important for these games.

What is it about loot driven games that creates the expectation that they should be played forever? Is it just historical precedent? Would it be so horrible if a game was amazing but finished in 20/30/40 hours rather than some endless grind that gets people to play them til they hate them?

This idea that you sink 20 hours into bullshit to get to "the real game" that is just playing the same content as before but with bigger numbers is so off putting. I feel like the audience expectation to be able to do that forever hurts the core design of these games.

The whole endgame BS is bizarre to me as well. And it often sees people just rushing to it like the main game is just filler. Like... shouldnt the core game be something you want to spend time in as well?

Don't think my thoughts are relevant here since you're making an online game, but anyway...
  1. Game should be designed to be playable single player. As I don't play online multiplayer games, this one thing will basically rule-out the game for me without even looking at what it offers.
  2. Game should focus on narrative. Without a good story hook and a good narrative, everything just becomes pointless and I just don't care about doing anything.
  3. Combat:
    • The core action combat should feel powerful and impactful. Enemies should have good hit reaction and there should be animation cancelling so that it all feels responsive and good.
    • There should be lots of build possibilities, especially builds that can become overpowered. Being able to create and share builds can extend the life of a game immensely.
    • There should be a good magic system in the game. This topic alone could be its own thread, but what I prefer is having spells being cast quickly (so no long casting durations), and spells not having too long of a cooldown after use. This allows a build that can be focussed purely on spells. Some good examples of what I mean includes Kingdom Hearts and Witcher 3, but go even beyond these.
    • Consider involving abilities/magic to interact with the world as well. So imagine casting Ice magic and then having the water in the lake freeze that you can walk over.
    • o2WB4jz.gif
    • Have faster and fluid world traversal. Something like NieR Automata with its butter smooth movement and that glorious dodge that flowed so well into movement (on ground and in air), or perhaps something like FFXV's teleporting but doing that outside of combat for movement, or perhaps Kingdom Hearts' Flowmotion (see gif below)
    • EnlightenedFlashyIaerismetalmark.gif
    • All the game's actions should be accessible immediately via the controller buttons. This means no weapon/ability wheels or the like that break or slow down the flow of combat. Think more shortcut buttons and less menus.
That's a few things that come to mind right now. Might update later. Thanks, and good luck.
You nailed it. Movement is a big one for me as well. Tales of Berseria was a fucking slog with all the backtracking and slow af walking/"running". Then they give you a skateboard that still manages to feel slow. We need movement abilities like something from infamous where going to your objective is just as fun as the objective itself. GTA (I know, not an RPG) has you driving your favorite sports car/flying, Spiderman has you using momentum to swing form building to building with ease, and batman has you chaining gliding with his bat hook all around town (oh and he has a fucking car). Let's make traveling fun for the player again.

Also that ice move to freeze portions of the lake into a walkable path looks limited there, but I really hope we can upgrade that to make it longer. The only other game I can think of that let you interact with the environment like that is Divinity original sin series.

I hope all this talk about next gen power is put to good use when it comes to moving about and interacting with the game environment rather than just being "prettier".
 

TheMoon

|OT|
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,778
Video Games
My favorite action RPGs are Devil May Cry (series) and Monster Hunter (legacy series, so GenU, 4U, 3U). The incredibly intricate gameplay coupled with difficult challenges let you know that your skill is the most important, but the combat is so varied that there are always multiple ways to tackle a tough obstacle. They all have amazing boss fights (I mean, that's basically the entirety of monster hunter) that you can repeat over and over in new playstyles.
never once have I heard any game in the DMC series described as an action RPG.
 

Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,490
The thing I hate about RPG's in general is having to look at a guide for how to spec your character and worrying about if a single mistake is going to gimp my character. That's part of why I like Diablo 3. I can mess around have fun without having to look at guides, but the guides are still there if you want to optimise and go really far. I hate being limited in my options and first of all having no clue from the start what are good options. I like in Skyrim where all options are open to you, you could spec them all to max the only limit is time.
 

Fall Damage

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,059
I would like to see an iso ARPG with combat in the vein of Diablo games but slower, more tactical, and challenging. Most praised D3 combat but I find it too spammy and uninteresting. I'm imagining encounters where you have to think and use strategy rather than absorbing damage while clicking on something until it dies. Souls-like but not so extreme.

I like a story that's more of a background to the main focus of gameplay. This genre usually has a lot of replayability and hearing the same dialogue over and over gets old.

I'm definitely a fan of procedural generation, at least for dungeons.

Endless dungeon or similar content doesn't keep me playing. I prefer goals with an end to work towards. This makes progress more meaningful and interesting. I find ARPGs tend to have lots of interesting character classes but I'm never able to play them all do to the time sink that end game is. I would like real incentive to play all the classes and be able to do so without quitting my job.
 

iiStryker

Member
Sep 19, 2019
167
Monster Hunter's loot and crafting system is great because it gives me the agency to build my character the way I want. There's light RNG with materials but its not too obtrusive to tbe point of making the grind a joyless slog.
The decoration system needs work too much RNG there and it is a slog


Dark Souls and Bloodborne loot are great also, again, because it gives me the agency to build my character how I want. How it upgrades and inflicts damage are a set path.


Both game have awesome Bosses that rewards you with meaningful and coveted loot

Both games also have great combat systems because they add stamina as a way to force the player into thinking about their actions making the combat strategic and thoughtful in lieu of button mashing.

While I love Nioh's combat I loathe diablo style RNG loot because you spend more time staring at a spreadsheet of stats than actually playing the game.

Player agency
Meaningful loot
Thoughtful combat
Unique/diverse biomes
Interconnected lived in world
 
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Aru

Member
Oct 28, 2017
783
Honestly, outside of the original Diablo on PS1 (I hate the PC version because of KB/M controls), Champions of Norrath, Diablo 3 (I played with the Steam Controller on PC because I didn't think a console version would be made, but enjoyed it somewhat) and Victor Vran, I haven't had any fun with games in the same genre. When you mentionned ARPG in the title, I was thinking games like japanese ARPG games (Ys, Kingdom Hearts...) and not hack&slash PC games, but whatever.

What I really enjoyed in Victor Vran was the challenge-based maps and the weapon-based skills. You can do whatever challenges suit you, or just clear the map. Also, changing skills is as simple as changing weapons. A dodge button is important too. And that's why Victor Vran, a fast-paced H&S which had all those mechanics, is my favorite hack & slash game ever. Class-based ARPG seems less interesting to me now, especially something slow-ass paced like Grim Dawn.
I really don't give a damn about replayability, since I very rarely replay games. What I enjoy the most is a single playthrough and if possible, not locking true endings being requirements that involve replaying the game or not missing stuff. Very frustrating.

Also yeah, please design your game around gamepads (instead of or in addition to KB/M) from the start and not as an afterthought, if possible.
 

Vetinari

Banned
Oct 31, 2019
64
Hello,

My two cents :
-meaningful loot: it's annoying to to sort through 50 variants with marginal variations
-tactical combat : no mindless clicking: if prefer less encounters but being more engaged in them
-environmental interaction and encounter design making use of it
-reactivity in the game world: I like to see my action and choices, even gameplay ones, impact the world
-gamepad support on PC if possible
 

Tamath

Member
Oct 31, 2017
742
Vienna, Austria
Just some thought off the top of my head:

I'd like controller support regardless of if it ends up being a top-down or third-person perspective. As I've gotten older I feel I've outgrown the RSI-inducing mouse clicking and in any case I feel less like I'm inhabiting the character and more like a guiding hand from on high with less agency than when I have direct control.

I understand the draw for procedural generation in ARPGs (particularly the Diablo branch) but I find it a really good way to forget a game rather quickly. I'd prefer a hand-crafted experience with maps you can learn the ins and outs of. All of my favourite games are like comfort blankets when I replay them because I've come to know them so well, and you can't do that with procedural generation.

Story is nice to have but not essential to me - I would say as barebones as, for example, Torchlight 1 wouldn't fly now, but something on the level of a Diablo type story is fine. I wouldn't say no to a cast of NPCs you can grow attached to over time, and this doesn't even necessitate a whole lot of interaction with them (look at how many people are fond of characters like Solaire, Sigfried, Cloth or Quirrel, although you exchange only a few sentences with them over a playthrough of Dark Souls/Hollow Knight).

Endgame has a similar problem (for me) with regards to procedual generation. Just going through a tileset laying waste to enemies for the chance of something shiny to lay waste to enemies 0.23% faster doesn't interest me at all. I think maybe an interesting way to deal with it could be a Souls-style NG+ system, in that when you off the final boss you go to a new game loop with harder enemies. Possibly later loops could have new/upgrades encounters/bosses or even story beats (if you set up your story to facilitate this) to incentivise going through again - although I understand it could turn a lot of people off if the true ending was locked behind, say, three loops of the game (although this depends on the campaign length, too). In any case I'm not a game designer, but I feel like one of the prime areas ARPGs (especially Diablo-likes) can be innovated in is an engaging endgame.

I think it would be cool to have characters able to be built in any way you want rather than certain skills being locked behind an "archetype" you choose at the start of the game. I personaly don't care for super-granular stat allocation (like Diablo 2) and I am happy to just use a skill tree or something similar - but I think if the route is chosen to build every aspect of the character and allocate stats then a respec option should be available... But not "too" available, as funnily enough I didn't like Diablo 3's "respec anytime out of combat" system as that robbed you of the aspect of a "build" and gave your spec a sense of impermanence. I just felt like I'd merely chosen the class and nothing else, leading me to feel like I had the same character as millions of others who chose that class, or in other words I didn't feel like I had built something unique to me and could therefore feel so attached to.

I would personally love an ARPG in the style of a Musou game in terms of character control and camera perspective - but I wouldn't tune the combat exactly the same as a Musou. I'd try and have less enemies and more meaningful fights than being able to sweep away hundreds of runts at a time (although this could be an encounter type as well, to keep changings things up - I just wouldn't make it the bulk of encounter types). I think you're only going to be able to have really cool encounters and bosses with a reasonably complex control system, that includes blocks/parries/dodges etc. Also I wouldn't have Musou-style maps and levels, but an interconnected world - possibly a BotW style where you are able to wander off somewhere too high for you and either retreat or try and outplay the higher-level content. However the world need not remotely be the size of BotW - open world games tend to be all filler no killer to me and I think that would seriously undermine an ARPG to spend too much time wandering large expanses of nothing in particular. I still look fondly upon A Link to the Past/A Link Between Worlds for having an overworld where every screen had something to discover or fight or a point of interest.
 

Scottoest

Member
Feb 4, 2020
11,356
Characters I care about, and lots of side-content. Side missions are some of my favourite content in action RPGs, if they let you explore the world more, your companions, or even the player character.

I like RPGs that make you feel like you yourself are an inhabitant of the clockwork of the world you're in, and not just a visitor there to wreck shop.

I also like lots of dialogue. I'm one of those people who would play Dragon Age or whatever, and meticulously go through and listen to every single possible thing my companions had to say, until it was clear they had nothing new left.

Honestly, I'd possibly go as far as to say that the world- and character-building matters more to me than the quality of the action itself. It's a big reason why I love The Witcher 3. A game like Skyrim has really janky combat, and yet I put hundreds of hours into it.
 
Further Question!
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thomasmahler

thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
Hey folks,

Sorry for letting this thread die out back then, I created this thread right before Will of the Wisps launched and we had quite the busy year... I always kept the thread open in my browser and finally got around to reading every single post made here extremely carefully and hey, thank you all so much for your insightful posts, there's a ton of good stuff in here!

In general, I couldn't help but smile reading this thread - I think most of you will really love what we're currently working on, which feels good, cause it means that I'm still quite aligned with what gamers in general out there want.

Now, let me add another thought that's quite wild and I'd love to hear how you folks would react to this.

In general, I think the game we're making has an insane amount of potential. But one thing I've learned over the past 10 years as a designer is that no matter what you do, you'll never be able to craft the perfect game for everyone. In development, you have to make tons of choices and even a small'ish decision we make could become THE thing that makes someone out there not be able to fall in love with your game.

So, I've been thinking for a while... why is everything usually so locked down in all the games out there? If you look at games like Dark Souls, it's made with a very specific design intention. For example, you die, you lose all your souls. You have one chance to get them back. It's a cool system and I love the Souls series, but I've heard from a ton of people that that is exactly what pulled them out of the game since they just couldn't get over 'playing a few hours and making virtually no progress'.

So... why not instead leave it up to the players, so they'd be able to decide what'd be the most fun for them? And yes, I understand that this is a super contentious thing and most people would respond with "wtf, then people could just change all the variables in the game and end up playing the game in a way the designers never intended!" - To that I'd respond: So what, let them? As long as there's a recommended default and you can change those settings on the fly, who gets hurt by that?

Think of it like a session of D&D: Yes, there's a certain ruleset you should adhere to, but the magic is in your buddies coming together and you being able to create the kinda scenario you'd all enjoy playing together. With current games, it's 'my way or the highway' and I think there's a huge amount of potential in basically almost creating a PLATFORM instead of a game with a strict ruleset where one little variable might be the kinda thing that a ton of people hate (and a ton of others love). And yeah, you could argue with 'if you try to make everyone happy, you'll end up making no one happy'... Fair point, but I wouldn't even try to make everyone happy. I'd just give people options. By default you'd play the game the way we intended it to be played, but imagine you wanna play it all again, but now you can completely twist the experience around...

Let's just imagine that for a second. Let's say the game comes with its own ruleset, basically our 'recommended settings'. But on top of that, you could go in and change a lot of the core stuff. Difficulty would be adjustable. PVP Invasions could be turned on and off. Being able to kill NPCs could be a setting. Wanna keep your XP upon death or play the game Souls-style? Do you enjoy randomized item drops similar to the Randomizer Mods we see Streamers get into now? That could be directly built in and optional. Are you hardcore and want to start a game with Permadeath enabled? There's an option for you. Wanna be even more hardcore and allow PVP looting, similar to old Ultima Online, so that you'd only carry the stuff on your body that you absolutely need in fear that a PVP player might invade and steal all your belongings? Great, just flip the switch. The last option is what actually started this whole thing in my head. I loved that anxiety in old Ultima Online, but OBVIOUSLY you wouldn't design a game around that nowadays anymore, cause it's just way too brutal for the mainstream audience. But hey, if it's a setting...

Of course we'd still need to ensure that these systems all end up working together, so you couldn't completely ruin your game, but I think giving the players the freedom to shape the game to how they'd like to experience it with us giving them the tools to do so could honestly really help turning a game you'd play once into a game you'd probably play way more often, simply because every time you sit down to play it, you could tweak the settings, so you'd get a fresh experience.

I know this is kinda wild, but I'd love to hear some reactions around that proposal!