So, let's talk about ARPGs!

[thomasmahler]

As some of you might know, after almost 10 years of working on Ori, we're currently working on an ARPG at Moon Studios and I wanted to do my usual thread where I ask everyone what they expect from a game in the genre we're working on. I did a similar thing back then when we just started working on Ori and the Will of the Wisps and I definitely took the feedback / input to heart, so I hope it's okay for me to just openly inquire on Era. Doing this just helps me get a sense for what people are into these days and to check if my ideas align with what people want.

The game we're working on is something I wanted game developers to make since 1998... Back then, Diablo 1 and Ultima Online just came out and my mind went nuts on what RPGs could become 'in a few years'. The idea of adventuring together with other players in meaningful ways was so enticing, but I think the industry took a very different turn from where my mind was going back then. Especially once MMORPGs took over, everything became a theme park ride where thousands of players were all doing the same thing and in a game where everyone is special, no one really is. With thousands of players on a server all fulfilling the same quests and doing the same content, no one could really stand out, nobody could affect the world in meaningful ways. Safe to say, MMORPGs were not really fulfilling the fantasy I had in my head.

So let's look at the ARPG subgenre. I hope this doesn't come off as me being too cocky, but I haven't seen a ton of innovation here over the past 20 years. Diablo 2 is honestly still the genre-king to me and while Diablo 3 was improved upon since launch, I always felt that the Diablo 3 core was something Blizzard just couldn't really change too much after they shipped. I hope the Blizzard fans won't rip me apart for saying this, but Diablo 3 feels like an arcade game to me. The RPG elements took a backseat and the fantasy just never clicked for me (It's still a fantastic game, mind you, just not what I had in mind after Diabo 2!).

I always feel like most other devs that try to make ARPGs are sticking way too close to the formula Blizzard laid out with Diablo. Torchlight, PoE, Grim Dawn, etc., they're all very obviously inspired by Diablo, to the point where I don't think it'd be offensive to put them under the 'Diablo Clones' banner, but I do think the genre could go much, much deeper than what Diablo has offered thus far. Analogy: After Doom came out back in 93, we saw a bunch of 'Doom Clones' - but then Half-Life showed what else could be done within the 'First Person Shooter' genre and things suddenly became much more interesting. Most devs that make ARPGs today don't even consider what games like the Souls-series, Monster Hunter or Breath of the Wild have brought to the table and you really have to wonder why that's the case.

So, with all that said, that's kind of where my head is. Now, I'd love to know what you folks are thinking. Let's just imagine for a second that you could dream up an Online Multiplayer RPG and you could do whatever the hell you wanted, even to the point where you could completely redefine the genre:

What would be the 5 big focus points you'd love to see a developer tackle?

Would story be important to you? What would you like to see in terms of combat? How important is the Diablo'ish Endgame to you? How about Level Design, is procedural generation vital in these kinda games to you? What do you expect in terms of loot from an ARPG? What keeps you playing these games for years on end? Are there things from games like Souls, Monster Hunter or Breath of the Wild you'd love to see within this genre? Just think of anything that might pop into your head - If you're playing todays RPGs, are there things that bother you that you'd love to tell a developer about? Do any games have any systems that you're absolutely in love with that you'd like to tell me about?

Would definitely appreciate any input you guys and gals might have! Feel free to go wild, I'm all ears here :)

 

[kadotsu]

I always wanted to see active defense (parry, character action type stuff) in games like this but it would mean that you would deprive the fans of this genre of their enemy vomit endgame.

 

[Kamaros]

oh god, one of my fav studio making my fav genre? pinch me please.

i expect almost the same from what i expect from a WRPG.

1- meaningful and unique builds
2- enemy and environment diversity
3- coop is lovely but not a priority

def i would try to move away from Diablo as much as possible, camera angle, artstyle and game design set in stone (dungeon priority, grindfest and classes/builds).
from Souls def lift the punchy combat and encounter design and from BOTW def take the open space and interactivity.

 

[Miniature Kaiju]

Loot with meaningful variation, that interacts with other systems in the game way beyond giving you a damage multiplier and/or elemental bonus.

 

[TheMoon]

Wait okay to clear this up, when you say ARPG you mean Diablo-clones and not actually action RPGs at large which includes countless games that are nothing like Diablo and its ilk?

 

[Deleted member 227]

Hmm, as someone who considers action RPGs my favourite genre (Kingdom Hearts, Souls series and Nioh represent) here's what I kinda want from the games:

- Fluid gameplay. I simply love the games to put emphasis on the action. Fast, reactive, etc. Borderline hack'n slash.
- Aesthetics is king: atmosphere and visual fidelity carries the games for me. I don't actually care how well the story is written if the game's world fascinates me. Setpieces carry a game.
- Customisable playstyles: Don't just make a tank, mage and rogue archetype. Actually let the player mix and match. If I want to make a hybrid class let me do it. Some of the games (I'm looking at you Souls series) has made this a bit harder and moved back to the archetypes. Please let me actually build myself. This also includes rerolling options!!! Let me reconfigure my character without starting over every time.
- In extension of fluid gameplay and customisable playstyles: having transformable player states really draw me in. Things like Form Changes from Kingdom Hearts and Yokai Form in Nioh 2. It feels so satisfactory to push that transform button and getting a burst of strength.
- Fashion: Let me use armor and weapons I like from their looks. Either use a skin transfer system or make every piece of unique looking item upgradable and viable. Yes, I'm the kind of person that thinks Pikachu should be viable in end game competitions, let me use things I like, please.

Bonus mention: For the love of god, if you're going to make the game use a character creator, give male characters as many options as female characters. And try actually make cool looking men possible.

Edit: Okay I might have been thinking of the wrong kind of ARPGs, but my points still stand because I wish the point and click ARPGs did all of the above too.

 

[thomasmahler]

Wait okay to clear this up, when you say ARPG you mean Diablo-clones and not actually action RPGs at large which includes countless games that are nothing like Diablo and its ilk?

Click to shrink...

Yes. When I say Action RPG, I don't just mean 'Diablo and its clones', but all RPGs that aren't turn-based, basically.

 

[Fatmanp]

This is a personal experience of mine and may not be one that other members share or think that I am an idiot for. I find it very hard to follow the story/lack of story in Diablo like games. I just don't feel hooked by any of the narrative its just "Place player in world ending environment and slash away". I think many games could do with having a more linear story line as opposed to having a deep story but only if you go out and find it. I have noticed this more and more since the Souls genre became popular. I am sure that there is a wonderful narrative there somewhere but I don't want to have to go and find a letter or audio file tucked away in the back corner of a level on a dead body.

This is why I never stick with these types of games because I feel i am just learning abilities and mashing through hordes of enemies without a reason other than because they are trying to kill me. For more general ARPGs say something like Assassins Creed i feel the scope of the story is to vast and needs to be much more focused. Only a few games this gen which are lengthy had a story which I stuck with like glue through to the end and they were both Sony exclusives (God of War and Horizon).

Looking forward to Ori 2 and your next project as I am sure they will bother be amazing.

 

[Prine]

Hey Thomas, first of all, thank you for your (and your teams) exceptional contribution to gaming!

I'll keep this brief, not to make light of your post, which is fairly comprehensive in itself as a question.

I've not played Diablo, but i do love ARPGs, i think of Witcher 3, Zelda, Souls, even Mass Effect. I adore the genre but only when you feel deep level of tactile feedback from third person mechanical standpoint, and when you feel you change the world you inhabit.

In order of priority for me:

1. Combat (movement of player, reaction to the world)
2. Exploration (World design is as important as Character movement)
3. Story (Witcher 3 is perhaps my greatest game of all time due to its multilayered and nuanced delivery of its story + sidequests)
4. Puzzles
5. Loot. This is a big one but also one devs abuse. I feel too many games where loot is just a number or modifier that doesn't make a change that feels lasting, they're all throwaway items, this has to change. This is something BoTW (even RDR2) tackles elegantly, items are continuously used, hunted and crafted to alleviate problems satisfyingly. Whenever i opened a box full of arrows for instance, i never once thought "this shit again?", arrows fused with fire becomes extremely useful, they have multiple uses. As a template BoTW is definitely the right one for exploration and loot. Witcher 3 for story and world-building.

 

[Chivalry]

I just want to see a DMC/Mgs:r/ninja gaiden-like combat with all the variety, dodges, parries, combos, fluidity, etc. Fuck holding down one button to see numbers pop up. Fewer numbers, more skill.
Also, physics. Have you played Divinity: OS? That, but in an arpg sounds great. Why shouldn't I be able to use the world against the enemies in any way I want?
Level variety. Spending 5-10 hours in one biome sucks. Change things up every hour or so. Allow the levels to influence gameplay. Smaller maps, but more variety. If God of War can do it, why can't you?
Metroidvania exploration. Give me a good reason to revisit locations.
Offline mode with LAN co-op.

 

[Ser Bloodraven]

Thanks for being so transparent, thomasmahler. Here are some things I like/don't like about today's RPGs (includes all sub-genres):

• Side Quests - try to give these real purpose and meaning (not just EXP grabs, fetch quests, kill everyone)
• Player Customization - either have a main character or very detailed player customization (that doesn't feel generic) so the player can easily self-identify with the character
• Dungeon Crawling - the same enemies re-skinned gets boring; however, that may be unavoidable... consider each dungeon having a unique boss
• Combat - give thought into how the opponent reacts to being hit, whether close or long range, and try to make each fight unique and memorable
• Skill Systems - don't go to crazy, find a nice balance between uniqueness and having to play 15 hours to fully understand the system(s)
• Bonus - cannot wait for Ori WotW and hope the ARPG comes to Xbox as well :)

 

[Benzychenz]

When I think of the high points of ARPGs, it's always the boss fights. Those are what bring the best of the genre to the top. Just pure tests of skill with mechanics that gel together super well.
Top of the class for me being Kingdom Hearts 2/3 data fights, and Souls as a whole.

 

[Bernkastel]

1. Don't put encumbrance or inventory limit in the game, please.
2. Unique loot like exotic weapons in destiny.
3. Secrets and puzzles.

 

[Dark_Castle]

A third person ARPG with loot done well. Nioh is close but the loot is far from ideal for me. It's hard to balance player skills with loot though, and it's a pretty complex topic to talk about.

 

[diablogg]

Story is cool but it's usually secondary in these kinds of games as gameplay remains king. I feel like moment to moment vibes and sidelore are maybe more important than always shoving story down a players throat.

Procedural generation isn't vital, but if you're intending for people to go thru and farm your game again and again it usually helps. That or once you hit endgame then have some sort of procedural generation adventure mode.

Path of Exiles loot is in my opinion maybe the largest innovation in the genre. They entirely figured out a system to do away with gold. Made a way for white (if 5 or 6 linked), magic, rare and unique items all to be valuable and made currencies that let you alter almost any state of your items. The item system in Path of Exile is truly insane, if you could even get close to that amount of depth I would be thrilled.

What normally keeps me playing is ladder seasons. If you're playing a game like this eventually if you play it enough you'll have every item and they'll just be less to do so you stop, ladder resets are a fresh start for everyone and are good point to add in some content to try and get more players.

If you can make a combo/button based combat work maybe? Also maybe if you can do Souls like lore that'd be pretty cool.

I would just implore you to do away with unique item drops scaling with level crap, I'll try and explain: if a Unique Monarch Stormshield drops it should just be a Stormshield req lvl 71, the Diablo 3 way is terrible in that I can find a Stormshield at level 20 but it will be shit and not worth using at endgame, that whole kind of scaling unique item design and even greater rift infinity design is garbage imo, there should be a point where enemies don't get stronger and I'm able to crush the game once I've invested enough time.

Anyway good luck with your game, I'm a tough person to please in the genre =P

 

[VN1X]

You commited two cinema sins in your thread title alone, which are "Starting a thread title with "So" and then following it up with "Let's talk about" which is an unnecessary addition considering the nature of the platform we're on.

This has been my contribution to the thread. Good luck!

 

[Skade]

So action RPGs in general right ?

First and foremost is and always will be great story for me. But i'm getting tired of the old trope of the hero who saves the world from destruction or stuff like that. What's wrong with a personnal quest that might just end up saving a city instead of the country/world ?

An annex to the story is player choice, giving us plenty of options and not waving them off at the end for facility.

Then, fluid but tactical gameplay, something that would recquire more strategy in the placement of strikes and so on but not necessarily depending on rolls and dodges ala Dark Souls. Basically that would recquire more brains that reflexes would be nice. Having the ability to use physics/environments would be a must.

On the loot, i'm more on the less is better camp. I'd rather have less loot but more meaningfull, and preferably oriented towards what i am playing, rather than the shit ton of useless stuff you can loot in a Diablo game for instance.

And then, on the world, a world that seem "real", and thus with vast empty spaces between points of interest rather than absurds things like bandits camps and monster nests every 50 meters in the forests. I'd rather have to travel a lot to enter a dangerous cave/donjon than stumbling from encounter to encounter every 50 seconds.

 

[stryke]

One thing I hope to see is for a dev to put more damn time into level designs. That's one area where other dev folks produce their stuff pretty cheaply, their level designs aren't anywhere close to the effort like Moon Studios put into it.

 

[Holundrian]

I felt similar before I played Nioh. Nioh is basically what I always wanted Diablo to evolve into. Really engaging third person combat that retains the depth of having different builds and all with different classes. Nioh doesn't really fulfill the class fantasy though but it did have build diversity when I played. And the grind didn't feel too harsh cause there were systems in place to mitigate overly bad rng on items.

I think to me the actual combat is the most important in an ARPG mostly because I think the type of rpg progression that's in those type of games has become so much more prevalent and it's hard to see takes on that, that would feel super fresh. You'd still want to have them but not really the thing I as a player will be able to instantly go oh that's totally new, whereas I feel the way arpgs could express themselves with different combat outside of just hold left click that space is still more open.

 

[exodus]

• Meaningful loot while minimizing inventory bloat. Uniques in D2 were quite rare and meaningful. Most other games fail to meet this. It's really not that interesting to find a sword with +361 to dex when I already have a sword that has +359 to dex. Incremental upgrades are boring.
• Loot that can define a character build. Finding a really rare bow that pushes you to create a new character is a great feeling.
• A proper endgame with a robust economy. Diablo 2 was a little wonky with all the duped HRs and SOJs, but otherwise it had a decent economy.
• More dynamic combat and maybe even MMO raid mechanics. Diablo 2 is great, but the combat is pretty uninteresting, and the boss fights are mostly mindless. Adding in AOE avoidance and raid mechanics as we see in MMOs could make things a lot more interesting.
• Variation in combat according to the chosen weapon. This is something Dark Souls and Monster Hunter do really nicely. It doesn't need to go quite as deep, but even the weapon type having an impact on your ability speed and overall weight of the combat would be a nice thing.

 

[Raza]

Every action RPG is different. Diablo is different than Dark Souls is different than Secret of Mana is different than Ys. I play each of these games for a separate reason.

I think if you end up trying to do a jack of all trades thing, it can be difficult to get everything to reconcile. Very few games check all boxes of Action RPG elements successfully. I'd say the most important thing is to have a hook, something that brings players back to the game, whether it's a honed combat system or a gripping story or mounds of interesting loot drops.

Also, make sure the soundtrack is awesome... but judging by Ori, you should already have that in the bag.

 

[exodus]

5. Loot. This is a big one but also one devs abuse. I feel too many games where loot is just a number or modifier that doesn't make a change that feels lasting, they're all throwaway items, this has to change. This is something BoTW (even RDR2) tackles elegantly, items are continuously used, hunted and crafted to alleviate problems satisfyingly. Whenever i opened a box full of arrows for instance, i never once thought "this shit again?", arrows fused with fire becomes extremely useful, they have multiple uses. As a template BoTW is definitely the right one for exploration and loot. Witcher 3 for story and world-building.

Click to shrink...

Interesting that you'd use BOTW as the template for loot when weapons are actually throwaway in that game. :p

 

[LavitzSlambert]

It's nice to have a dev of the people finding out some takes on a forum like this. Moon is awesome!

Gameplay is the area I'd like to see the biggest improvement in ARPGs. There are too many focused on typical builds and stats and the gameplay/story suffers. Also they're too grindy.

I would love to have an ARPG-lite action/adventure game more closely resembling Dark Souls in terms of gameplay but geared towards the Zelda side of exploration, story, and with puzzles and other things to do. No grinding and fluid movement/combat is key. I really dont enjoy point and click movement and auto attack.

If Moon really wants to move the genre forward then do what you did in Ori by combining fluid movement and responsive controls with a story we will care about. Do that with ARPGs and you'll have a hit for sure.

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

1. Story is very important. Give me some characters that I'll want to spend time with.

2. Difficult games are on trend right now, but please consider an easy/narrative difficulty that's actually easy. Sometimes I'm just coming to a video game to relax and escape to another world.

I get that other people want a stiff challenge (prediction: 75% of posts in this thread will mention Dark Souls). It's nice when a game offers both.

 

[exodus]

Re: on the subject of story.

While I can appreciate a good story in a game, if we're talking about a Diablo style end-game, I'd rather the story not get in the way. Keep it minimalist, and let me skip it if I so choose. A mute story would be interesting, as I feel Ori did a great job at conveying emotion without words much of the time.

If the story is too much in the way of things, then it can make character creation frustrating. Though, you could look at FF XIV for a viable solution: allowing the main character to re-roll classes while maintaining story progress.

 

[zoodoo]

Yes. When I say Action RPG, I don't just mean 'Diablo and its clones', but all RPGs that aren't turn-based, basically.

Click to shrink...

When I read the thread title I was thinking more japanese type ARPGs (Terranigma, Illusion of Gaia, Secret of Mana). Those types of games are very few nowadays. Most indie devs take inspiration from Zelda when designing ARPGs but other games did it differently back then and they seem to be forgotten. Personally I am not a fan of loot or randomly generated content in general so I am not sure I am your target audience.

 

[Dark_Castle]

Every action RPG is different. Diablo is different than Dark Souls is different than Secret of Mana is different than Ys. I play each of these games for a separate reason.

I think if you end up trying to do a jack of all trades thing, it can be difficult to get everything to reconcile. Very few games check all boxes of Action RPG elements successfully. I'd say the most important thing is to have a hook, something that brings players back to the game, whether it's a honed combat system or a gripping story or mounds of interesting loot drops.

Also, make sure the soundtrack is awesome... but judging by Ori, you should already have that in the bag.

Click to shrink...

This is true. I think when we're talking about ARPG, it should be made more clear what kind of ARPG we are talking about, because they're very different species with fairly different appeal. Better to focus on an area and not worry about innovating so much. Concentrate on putting on a good game, then think about pushing boundaries.

 

[Tu101uk]

For me, Diablo 3 was my gateway to ARPGs (isometric point and click etyle) and that was mainly due to the console versions (PS3/PS4/Switch). It not only plays great but feels great having that direct control. And I'm sure I wasn't alone, as Diablo 3 has gained a huge console following. So yeah, controller support is a huge plus.

Saying that, players would probably like to have a load of skills at their disposal instead of being limited to six or seven. Why haven't ARPGs made use of a shortcut crossbar like FF14's? Using one or both triggers for an extra 24 commands /consumables can lead to more gameplay variety.

Also the ability to experiment is part of the experience, both in skills and gear. Let us spend and refund skill/talent points however and whenever we want. It'll make newer content and balance patches that nerf overpowered builds easier to deal with. I personally don't mind PoE's skill wheel tree of death but I always get obsessed with character building, I can see how more casual players will find it daunting. As long as skills and stats are explained properly most people will pick it up.

Finally, I want to feel overpowered at the endgame, like a deity of destruction going around the map once fully maxed out with the right combination of skills and gear, with only the endgame activities that will test my skills. Not damage sponges, but also no unfair affixes or abilities, boss/raid encounters we would need to coordinate as a team.

Just my two pence on the matter. Looking forward to what you guys and gals do with the genre.

 

[Mentalist]

I'm not really big into the Diablo-likes, so my input's probably gonna be of limited use. I stick strictly to solo play.

But since I brought it up in a different thread:

The one RPG that managed to make me care about loot and builds was Darksiders II. I don't know what it was about that game, but I was totally hooked on the numbers, and comparing stats on each new weapon, etc. Perhaps it was the fact that the game allowed you to combine buffs from different weapons you found by "feeding" them to a special class of "possessed" weapons and choosing which buff or bonus from the destroyed weapon would go into your new one. It allowed to basically custom-design a piece of gear that would best suit your play-style, or a particular enemy (if you had to deal with elemental weaknesses/resistances) etc.

So, as a total casual- I would point to Darksiders II as doing something kinda different from the traditional Diablo formula.

 

[Redcrayon]

My favourites are Ys and Monster Hunter.

The former for the fast pace combined with good music, it's like distilled adventure as you don't stop moving.

However, while I wouldn't call MH an action rpg specifically, it does have two things that I think are really relevant to them.
They are a sense of place and a sense of impact.

Monster Hunter is a game where there are rudimentary ecosystems in place, and human settlements largely work with them. Sure, the game is about cartoonishly powerful superhero mercenaries killing off the predators at the top of a food chain that is ludicrously top-heavy. But it all kinda fits in to the non-combat side of each settlement, to the point where it's like those rpgs (like the Bracers in Trails in the Sky ) that have put some thought into how a settlement that had powerful adventurers passing through would actually work. Some rpgs just have a weapon, item and armour shop. But Monster Hunter has people cooking monster food outside, their ships and buildings are all made of natural materials harvested by adventurers. Reseachers work with and within the hunter guild, and the livlihood of a good part of each settlement works in sync with it. There is no silly single village supporting a castle with a military of 8 people. There's no spare resources for that, but when hunters bring in a beast, you get the sense that nothing is wasted. The monsters have behavioural patterns famously rooted in natural creatures, and so the beasts leap and stalk, the fliers attack with claws from above like a hawk, and all of them flee when wounded.

In terms of impact, I like that the monsters take time to bring down. A fight with a large wyvern is given time and space, it's not two minutes of hammering the special attack buttons for instant feedback, it's something you have to prepare for, and time spent observing behavioural patterns isnt time wasted. The biggest letdown I've had with various recent action rpgs, both Ys VIII and Diablo III, is when boss fights revolve around managing the cooldowns of your stronger abilities as much as actual strategy. Enemy abilities that can't be evaded or blocked with good play, and demand healing, I find to be a bit boring. I like boss fights that, once mastered, allow me to take an enemy apart with a visable show of mastery of the battle engine, chosen class etc rather than just trade blows.

 

[werezompire]

I think Diablo meets Dark Souls is one of those ideas that sounds brilliant, but doesn't work very well in actual practice.

There's a certain zen feeling you get from a well-done Diablo-style game - you breeze through most enemy mobs while thinking of what the next step for your build is while occasionally getting a tough rare enemy or boss fight that requires you to be more involved. You lose that if each battle is intense & mechanically complex.

Conversely, the carefully crafted mechanics & encounters in Dark Souls are difficult to get right if you have the massive spread of potential power & builds that you see in a Diablo-style game. You get players that are either blowing through your boss fights through sheer power or you get players that are stuck because an already hard battle is even harder because they're at a lower power level.

Also, you gotta remember that a boss fight that is cool the first time might not be so cool the 200th time a player fights it. Bosses that have gimmicks that prevent quick victory when you're overpowered (like bosses that have multiple phases that you have to wear down and then wait for the transition) are something the fanbase tends to HATE.

Some key things that I think you need to focus on for a good Diablo-like.

1) Huge build possibilities. Games like Path of Exile & Grim Dawn really nail this with their complex leveling systems & item systems.

2) Itemization. Getting new gear should be exciting. Items shouldn't just be for increased stats, but should also open up the possibilities for entirely new builds. Path of Exile unique items are great with this - yeah, there are some that are just stat boosts, but there are so many items that are build-enabling. Conversely, Wolcen was really bad at this. Also, it helps if there's some coherence with stats - uniques absolutely should have themes and not just random stats, but having sets of mods that are grouped together is a good idea as well (Titan Quest & Grim Dawn do well with this with their monster infrequent drops).

Also, I'd stay away from unique sets since they discourage creativity and tend to make a few builds dominate.

3) Combat feel. Visual effects are key here (and judging from Ori, I have no doubt you all know what you're doing here), but almost as important are sound effects. Framerate is key. Melee is harder to make feel good here (Path of Exile falters here on the Strike-style skills, whereas Diablo 3 & Grim Dawn fare better). Also, I think it's generally a good idea to NOT have a hit rate % since missing feels terrible - if you want to implement something like that, do glancing blows instead (if you "miss", you still hit but do reduced damage - kind of like a reverse critical hit). If you have an offline mode, this helps greatly as well.

4) Linearity vs Non-linearity. I think generally the micro should be linear but the macro should be non-linear. Like take Path of Exile - the individual maps & areas you run tends to be fairly linear (minimal backtracking for maximum combat + loot), but once you complete the story, you can focus on maps, the different masters, lab running, whatever the league gimmick is, delving, etc. Conversely, I feel like Grim Dawn areas are a bit too wide so there's a lot of backtracking involved if you try to explore everything.

5) Replayability. This is one area that I think the genre could work on. I'd love it if it was easier to make new builds in these games. Respec isn't ideal since it trivializes your progress and destroys your old build (note, you should have SOME respec for fixing mistakes in builds, just total respec is questionable). Something that might work is if you had an account level that slowly goes up as you play and starting a new game lets you start from the account level, along with some basic equipment and story progression to match.

EDIT: Some more stuff.

Story should be there, but not in your face. Basically, people who just care about gameplay should be able to ignore it. Item descriptions that hint at lore are great.

For something that I haven't seen before, I'd love a Diablo-like where you have an AI companion who is built just like the main character (not like Diablo where your AI companions are much simpler), enabling you to have 2 builds at once. And then do a quick swap like the Ys games where you can switch between characters, along with shortcut buttons to force the other character to do certain moves. Would be hard to do this well, but would rock if you pulled it off.

 

[Rosebud]

1. Story is very important. Give me some characters that I'll want to spend time with.

2. Difficult games are on trend right now, but please consider an easy/narrative difficulty that's actually easy. Sometimes I'm just coming to a video game to relax and escape to another world.

I get that other people want a stiff challenge (prediction: 75% of posts in this thread will mention Dark Souls). It's nice when a game offers both.

Click to shrink...

This. :)

 

[garion333]

I think direct control of your character a la console Diablo 3 was an absolute game changer from me. I like that it plays almost like a twin stick shooter.

However, I think the end game of the ARPG/Diablo-like genre is abysmal and boring. I get that some folks spend all their time grinding end game content, but for me the leveling process is more interesting as I enjoy the power curve of getting new abilities, etc.

I prefer both proc gen and designed levels. I particularly enjoy Japanese games that give you endless, proc gen dungeons as end game or optional content, but the main game and story are designed by humans (Disgaea, Dragon's Dogma (sorta), Pokemon).

Pure proc gen really kills exploration for me as it's random, though I can imagine a cool ARPG la BotW with its non-linear storytelling. Emergent storytelling in roguelikes (Cogmind, TOME, Qud) is something I think could be done well in an Diablo-like ARPG. Each run you can uncover more and more pieces of info, to slowly paint a better picture. And, eventually, you could unlock the final piece to the puzzle and get to that last level, last boss. Something like that.

 

[Dogui]

Something i always wanted in a arpg (or even rpg in general, or maybe in videogames in general) is a way to not make enemies the only major threat to the player character. Instead of doing queues of enemies, pace them better in more sparse segments while focusing more on traps, climbing, hostile temperature and stuff like that. A lot of games do this but it's always in gimmicky dungeons/areas and never as a core gameplay mechanic. Imo fights would be more meaningful if there's 5 enemies/group of enemies in a dungeon with lots of other threats rather than 30+ encounters.

It's probably something hard to do in a Diablo like, mouse click RPG, so for this subgenre specifically, i would like less hordes of enemies. Instead, make well positioned stronger enemies, kinda like a Dark Souls. I enjoy the build/loot aspect of Diablo like games but holy fuck hundreds of enemies that dies in 1 hit shouldn't be staple for this kind of game. Also, we lack futuristic Diablo like games, the only one i can think of is not very good.

Focus on:

1- Meaningful enemy positioning.
2- A build system that makes the game enjoyable for a casual even without searching the internet for a decent build, but also an actual skill tree, not that Diablo 3 shit.
3- Level design where enemies are only 50% of the equation.
4- Unique aesthetics. It would be kind of disappointing if Moon Studios does something "Blizzardy" after freaking Ori games.
5 - A setting you wouldn't see in most similar games.

 

[Celine]

Terranigma is still the golden standard for me.
Surprisingly deep story, smooth controls and arcade-y moveset, terrific OST and a constantly engaging world build with varying and always interesting locales.
Add to all that some rather novel concept like the possibility to advance the human civilization through side quest and by doing this you would get new towns/events/rewards/islands to explore around the globe.

 

[banter]

OP, you opened a can of worms so here we go.

This is a personal experience of mine and may not be one that other members share or think that I am an idiot for. I find it very hard to follow the story/lack of story in Diablo like games. I just don't feel hooked by any of the narrative its just "Place player in world ending environment and slash away". I think many games could do with having a more linear story line as opposed to having a deep story but only if you go out and find it. I have noticed this more and more since the Souls genre became popular. I am sure that there is a wonderful narrative there somewhere but I don't want to have to go and find a letter or audio file tucked away in the back corner of a level on a dead body.

This is why I never stick with these types of games because I feel i am just learning abilities and mashing through hordes of enemies without a reason other than because they are trying to kill me. For more general ARPGs say something like Assassins Creed i feel the scope of the story is to vast and needs to be much more focused. Only a few games this gen which are lengthy had a story which I stuck with like glue through to the end and they were both Sony exclusives (God of War and Horizon).

Click to shrink...

I could not agree with this sentiment more. The top down perspective I think is to blame as it keeps you so withdrawn from your characters and what is going on. I mean, you see it all, but there's no... you don't see character expressions and feels the dread when there's a big monsters coming at you because, while it does look big from your perspective, it isn't towering over your view so it doesn't intimidate at all. Meanwhile, when you have a third person perspective, you do see things in a much more personal and intimate way in relation to your character. I couldn't imagine trying to play monster hunter or something like that from such a distant perspective. It would take so much away from the personality of the monsters and the feel of combat.

Speaking of feel of combat, this is a big... that's an understatement, this is a MASSIVE part of what makes or breaks an ARPG to me. Whether you have enemies coming at you in hordes, or giant monsters, the feel of combat is crucial. Games like Monster Hunter and Souls games excel because there's such good feel of combat. What I mean is, when you hit an enemy, it feels like you hit an enemy. So many ARPGs (Diablo and the like) and particular MMO style ones miss the mark on this where you can just keep attacking regardless of what the enemy is doing and the enemy keeps attacking regardless of what you're doing and it just feels cheap. It's like you're button mashing against time instead of fighting something. Getting a powerful hit in monster hunter and sending a giant monster reeling backwards feels amazing and it flows really well with the animations to the point where it doesn't seem ridiculous that your little person just made a massive creature go reeling. The feel and sound of shielding hits from powerful enemies shouldn't just protect you from damage but show the impact and force of the hit while doing so.

Story... I'm alarmed by some of the opinions that I'm seeing in this thread about story. Anything that even tries to have RPG in it's genre should be heavy in story. It doesn't have to be hour long cutscenes and bs like that, but the story should be there and be pronounced. It is the foundation of the RPG genre imo. Having said that, let's talk a bit about side quests. Not all side quests are going to be relevant to the story, and that is ok. However, to take a note from the Witcher 3, they should all be treated as if they were a pivotal part of the story. What I mean is, the quest structure should be the same (don't have main quests have voiced dialogue and side quests not or anything like that. If you're going to have fetch quests, give them some life. Have a story to it regardless as to whether it made in impact on the games story or not. Just whatever you can to make the mundane tasks less mundane. One of my favorite examples is in the Witcher 3, there's a quest to find an old lady's frying pan. In the process you uncover a murder and evidence of coverup/conspiracy. It made something that originally sounded very mundane into something that was actually interesting. The story was tangentially relevant to the main arc to where you'd pay attention just in case it ended up being relevant to the story, but it wasn't. But that was huge and is a big part of why the Witcher 3 is so popular.

Difficulty. As many have mentioned, this is quite a divisive topic. The easy answer is have options, but the problem is, the implementation of such. If you're going to have options, you have to balance them properly. Don't have damage sponge nonsense that takes forever to kill because "that makes it harder". There needs to be a balance. I feel like Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order is a good example of a step in the right direction. Tightening up the frame time of when you can dodge or parry attacks (if that is a mechanic) is a great way of making increased difficulty without just inflating damage and HP numbers. It's ok to give those numbers a boost but it shouldnt be the basis by which the entirety of the difficulty system rides.

As for grinding... If you're going to make the game be a grindy game, you need to make the core gameplay loop very fun and as least repetition as you can control given the tools that you have control over. That is vague as hell, I'm aware, but it's difficult to really push the point not knowing the type of game you're making. Most of my points are catered to a Souls/Zelda ARPG rather than a Diablo/PoE style, though I've been trying to make the points viable for both.

My final point, make differences in build matter. One of the biggest disappointments in one of the most popular games of last gen (Skyrim) was that your build didn't matter because you could always become a jack of all trades if you kept playing. That means, outside of experiencing the story and it's few variations, there's zero reason to replay the game. You can do archer, or spells, or swords and shield, or whatever type of playstyle all in one character. There is a caveat to this however. Make the stats for each "class build" make sense. The biggest problem most people have with having to choose a build at the start is that they don't know what skills will be most powerful for said build. So you have to make these things intuitively obvious so that when someone cranks up things like wisdom and intelligence for their mage, they end up buffing the mage things.

I could seriously go on forever but I'm gonna stop here. Might make another post later, who knows.

 

[dancingphlower]

I enjoyed Diablo 3 a lot more on console, as I felt like I had more control of the action. So I guess for me I prefer having direct character control and feeling like an unstoppable badass in an ARPG. Nailing the feel of combat is the thing that will get me in the door.

 

[Deleted member 388]

1) Local co-op. Console diablo and the Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance games have spoiled me into wanting this as a priority. Asking for it on PC is a pipe dream I won't even entertain.

2) Some kind of dodge to add a level of depth or variety to the combat.

3) "Seasons" - I think this is my preferred endgame content for ARPGs. Finding out Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 didn't have it and just offered DLC down the road was a bit of a bummer.

4) Let me apply the skins of items I've obtained onto newer items. I hate looking like a bozo just cause the stats are better.

5) Ability to change difficulty on the fly, in case I manage to out level the game's difficulty.

You commited two cinema sins in your thread title alone, which are "Starting a thread title with "So" and then following it up with "Let's talk about" which is an unnecessary addition considering the nature of the platform we're on.

This has been my contribution to the thread. Good luck!

Click to shrink...

This is my favorite post of 2020.

 

[Fadewise]

A big thing that's been percolating with me for some time that no ARPG or grind/loot game in general has really delivered on is persistence of progression across multiple platforms, especially between home systems (consoles and PCs) and portable (Switch or mobile). My gaming community is largely on Steam at this point, and that will always be my preferred platform to play these types of games, at least for the original solo campaign and for any multiplayer activites, but for grind-based games like this, I would absolutely love to be able to get in some quick sessions on my Switch or phone while i'm away from home. Diablo III is just about a perfect game for me to play on the switch, but it just kills me that I have to have completely separate characters and account levels than the place where I play the majority with my friends. I know that online-only versus the ability to play offline is a contentious and complicated thing, but the first ARPG that can nail this will get a lot of my time and money.

 

[thomasmahler]

Oh, please go on :)

There's a ton of good stuff in this thread already! Love reading all of your thoughts :)

 

[z1ggy]

I *really* like the gameplay flow of Ys Origin. I dont really like procedural generation...And yeah, loot and good bosses to fight on.

 

[TheMoon]

Yes. When I say Action RPG, I don't just mean 'Diablo and its clones', but all RPGs that aren't turn-based, basically.

Click to shrink...

But going by your opening pitch, this seems to be focused on the isometric hack-n-slash loot sub-sub-genre of ARPGs since that's the type of game you do talk about the most. Even divorced from the Diablo-clone baggage, the fundamentals of that blueprint are still far away from other ARPGs like Mass Effect, Alpha Protocol, 3D and 2D Zelda and its derivates like the Quintet Trilogy, stuff like Nier, FROM's Souls games, Drakengard, The Last Story, Vampyr, the Ys series, Mana-series, Tokyo RPG Factory's games etc etc.

That's why I asked that question. You can of course get a lot of ideas from this kind of feedback but I'm not sure how productive it is casting the net this wide if, by the end, you're still limited by the isometric hack-n-slash with multiplayer template.

For me, depending on which avenue the game would end up going down, I'd expect and want very different things from it.

 

[Lunoir]

So I'm maybe a weird edge case where ARPGs are my favorite genre, but I tend to not really click with most of the games you'd think of when the genre is mentioned. I'm much more of a Phantasy Star Online, Warframe, Dark Souls, etc., over-the-shoulder ARPG fan. But the classic isometric games can scratch the itch for me as well. There are just a few turn-offs that they tend to have.

Things that bother me about currently popular ARPGs:

• The focus of the game ends up being weighted far more toward the meta elements rather than the moment-to-moment elements--the fun comes from figuring out and crafting builds that do well, but the moment-to-moment actual gameplay gets reduced to one or maybe two abilities that you spam as you sprint through an area demolishing everything. I've yet to find an isometric ARPG that actually manages to have both interesting build variety and engaging combat gameplay in equal parts.
• This may be related to the last one, but they all seem to end up being too frenetic. I'd love an ARPG that manages to disincentivize the way that effectiveness always seems to boil down to how quickly you can burn through a level. This is one of the main reasons that I ended up falling off of both PoE and Warframe--I realized at a certain point I was just playing a racing game.
• No controller support on PC!! Baffling to me that any of these games don't have controller support. If I'm going to be grinding for hours, I want to be able to sit back and be comfortable while doing so.
• For a genre that encourages making new characters all the time, few games add interesting variety to the process of leveling up a new character. You still have to play through all the same story acts in PoE that you always have every time you make a new character. I'd love a more non-linear structure.

 

[Saci do PXB]

So action RPGs in general right ?

First and foremost is and always will be great story for me. But i'm getting tired of the old trope of the hero who saves the world from destruction or stuff like that. What's wrong with a personnal quest that might just end up saving a city instead of the country/world ?

An annex to the story is player choice, giving us plenty of options and not waving them off at the end for facility.

Then, fluid but tactical gameplay, something that would recquire more strategy in the placement of strikes and so on but not necessarily depending on rolls and dodges ala Dark Souls. Basically that would recquire more brains that reflexes would be nice. Having the ability to use physics/environments would be a must.

On the loot, i'm more on the less is better camp. I'd rather have less loot but more meaningfull, and preferably oriented towards what i am playing, rather than the shit ton of useless stuff you can loot in a Diablo game for instance.

And then, on the world, a world that seem "real", and thus with vast empty spaces between points of interest rather than absurds things like bandits camps and monster nests every 50 meters in the forests. I'd rather have to travel a lot to enter a dangerous cave/donjon than stumbling from encounter to encounter every 50 seconds.

Click to shrink...

I'm with you on this.

Plus, I would like to see something like this on quests:
- You must defeat a gang. If you beat or arrest their leader, you can finish the quest. But, another member of the gang can take the leadership after some time. It wouldn't be a random member, so if the player gather information about the gang structure, he can dismantle the gang for good without killing EVERY member.
So, it would be nice to feel that world changing accordingly to your actions, and at the same time offer realistic ways to finish quests.

 

[Tuorom]

I think one thing that hasn't really been iterated on is horizontal itemization. Lots of times there is one item that is always the best for one build. You have some games like Grim Dawn which are the inverse of this where there are tons of builds available but still it is usually the one item you always need to complete a build, you know?
It would be cool to have like 5 classes, take D2 for example, and they have their 3 skill trees. Have lots of different uniques that enhance builds and act as uniques by making that build unique. Have some uniques change how skills fundamentally function, have some uniques which directly enhance skills or change their flavour. One of the cool parts of D3 was how the rune system changed skills. Path of Exile has some cool nodes that do this but the genre being as it is I think it would be better for items to serve this purpose. It serves gameplay by making the itemization more interesting, it serves builds, it serves simplicity so you don't need to wrangle a huge grid, and it serves the unknown for a bit giving you a sense that you might find a cool item to change your build on a whim.
Have a unique which gives a benefit if you change between sorc elements, and another which increases potency if you stick to one. Have a unique which adds your mana to health and uses health for mana. Have a unique which gives a benefit if you use particular skills in order, like using frost nova after blizzard freezes enemies in the aoe of blizzard.

Another thing, having recently played DooM 1 and 2 recently, is that skills need to have impact. They need some oomph and some effectiveness. I say worry less about balance and more about the best parts of arpgs like Diablo which is finding sweet items which make you feel powerful. Have skills like charged bolt where you can stack the bolts like a shotgun if you get close enough, creating interesting builds at a risk. Have skills with tradeoffs. The super shotgun is powerful but you need to reload after every shot. Blessed hammer is powerful but you have to stand still. Zeal is powerful but you need to commit to your 5 attacks and take that risk. Have less frozen orbs which are good at everything with no drawbacks (and enigmas). I am a fan of having everything be "balanced" by everything being powerful, like in DooM and Street Fighter 2. Also there is nothing wrong with keeping it simple.

Make the story and the leveling interesting. A big interest for me is creating new characters and new builds and there is nothing worse than going through a bland or poorly paced story again and again and again. D2 had a barebones story but the setting was interesting but most importantly it had a quick pace to accompany this barebones story. I found a game like Titan Quest fairly bad for creating new characters because it felt like it took a long ass time to get anywhere. The acts were way too long with too much filler.

Also unlike D2, have the ability to reroll skills and stats. It doesn't make it less likely to create a new character because that guy is made with a specific build in mind, however with the above itemization you need the freedom and quality of life. D2 is even better with PlugY which gives you free rerolls and an infinite stash.

Random thought: Disco Elysium has a cool idea where ideas were the itemization iirc. I watched the developer talking about that, and maybe that would be a cool idea to brainstorm about. That there is a mental aspect that games haven't really delved into. If that can really apply to arpgs is another thing.

Diablo 2 is honestly still the genre-king

Click to shrink...

 

[ThreepQuest64]

I want a challenging game and not only at the endgame but from the get-go. Meaningful equipment; no enemy scaling so you always have a boring flat difficulty curve making you questioning the reason to level up in the first place, I want areas and enemies to be challenge that can only be overcome by very clever play or better equip and stats.

If you implement coop, don't make it half-arsed like in Grim Dawn but more like in Diablo 3, Wolcen and Dungeon Siege 3.

Story is important as well. I want meaning behind the slaying of hundreds of enemies and not only for the sake to level up and collect stuff. We already have plenty of those games. I want a gripping story that makes you want to push on not only for loot but to see what happens to the characters and the world.

I think that every feature that's going to be implemented should work on its own and must be at least "good". If not, then don't implement it at all and focus your resources on things that can be improved from "good" to "awesome".

Obviously combat is ultra important in an action RPG. It must feel impactful with great feedback and must feel weighty, like the hits really connect with the enemies. Animations are also important. There is no need for tons of different animations for the same thing but the animations you have for attacking, dodging, blocking etc. must look good.

Thanks for taking your time to read these posts!

 

[werezompire]

I'm with you on this.

Plus, I would like to see something like this on quests:
- You must defeat a gang. If you beat or arrest their leader, you can finish the quest. But, another member of the gang can take the leadership after some time. It wouldn't be a random member, so if the player gather information about the gang structure, he can dismantle the gang for good without killing EVERY member.
So, it would be nice to feel that world changing accordingly to your actions, and at the same time offer realistic ways to finish quests.

Click to shrink...

Path of Exile has this: https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Immortal_Syndicate

 

[Olorin]

Stuff that I find important in Diablo-Clones:
1 -To-hit impacts of skills. Not sure how to describe this -if I hit an enemy with a hammer, I want to feel it!
2 -Build diversity. Passive skills are great, especially when interlaced with several systems (loot, classes, alternate progression)
3 -Procedurally generated environments.

Stuff I love in current Diablo-Clones:
1 -Last Epoch's skill-enhancement system.
2 -Grim Dawn's super weird world. Guns, necromancers, Demons, Cults, and Warhammer armor.
3 -Grim Dawn's player-choice story elements (Choosing to fight the Avatar of Mogdrogen)
4 -Path of Exile's passive tree.
5 -Torchlight's pet system.

Additional thoughts:
I play a lot of Black Desert. I love the node management system as a means of trade, gear, and unlocks. This could be great to try in an ARPG as another progression system.

I greatly dislike Diablo 3's arcade'y skill system.

 

[Fadewise]

This will probably be a contentious opinion that the PC ARPG purists will decry (just look at the reactions to last week's Diablo IV blogpost about controller UI), but given your console background, i'd love to see an ARPG designed and balanced 100% around controller input. As others have said above, Diablo III's console port was a huge step forward on this front, but it was still based on an original game designed around cursor based targeting. There's room for both types of games, to be sure, but I think it's a sad fact that any game that tries to balance between both will inevitably come up short on both fronts. KB/M purists have dozens of ARPGs available already; i'd love to see one that really leans into the strengths of controller-based input.

 

[zanos]

Anyone remember Revenant from '99? Gameplay was pretty great, story not so much. But I remember feeling that the gameplay for an ARPG was pretty innovative due to the three basic attack types and combos you could do with unique kill animations. You could also 'fine tune' your attacks a bit. I guess the easiest comparison was it was somewhat similar to Legacy of Kain Blood Omen, but it was even more interesting. The plot of Revenant was nothing to write home about. Banter #36 already provided a pretty good description of my other gripes/wishes. But I think people have become a bit too conditioned into expecting an ARPG (at least top down/isometric views) to have certain features or play a certain way.

There have been newer games that have really refined that style of play and have made fun games, but the genre is sorely in need of some innovation. As for ARPGs in general, it seems like you are either thrown in a souls-like or diablo-esque buckets. I certainly think there are ways to add in a captivating story, add in some additional features that contribute to that story, such as managing an army of sorts from a menu, have that tie into dialogue or story elements, have those choices be manifested in the world, or something that actually makes the combat mean something other than save the world from a big bad evil guy, have two characters fighting on opposing fronts, each with their own stories, with unique fighting styles, the story elements and choices for either can dictate how the conflict unfolds and what happens, which adds to replayability. While the procedurally generated dungeon romp can be pretty addicting and offer hours and hours of play, for me personally the endless hordes where the only thing you look forward to is a nice randomized loot drop is really beginning to get stale, but hey, that's me.