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Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992
Not to shock you OP or Americans, but the US is behind on every possible metric for what's right and beneficial for your citizens. Obviously I'm being facetious, that you guys don't already don't know that, but your government, Republican of course, but even Democrats, do not put citizens ahead of anything and just tax you with absolutely the bare minimum (and in most cases not even the bare minimum) given back to you with your taxes. Most other places there would have been a revolt already to demand you get what's rightfully yours
 

Deleted member 37151

Account closed at user request
Banned
Jan 1, 2018
2,038
What I find insane is how many people say things like 'well my company provides health care' or 'my company gives me days...'.

It shouldn't be up to your employer! That's how they ransom you into never leaving.

Maternity time and pay should be law. Minimum vacation days should be law. The right to be sick and not be fired should be enshrined in law! You shouldn't be able to be fired for being gay or trans! By law!
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,985
The US basically has no law for sick leave. But individual states have more or less than others. More liberal states are similar to many European countries, but even so, its still down to the company you work for.

Like everything. It's haves and have nots. If you have a good job for a good company you generally have everything. If you don't, then you're fucked

I technically have unlimited sick time. But my company will shit bricks if you're out for more than 5 or 6 days in a year. But I'm not complaining anymore....they have 4 weeks for parental leave minimum which was simply amazing life changing. So I've stopped complaining.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,316
America
In defense of America and at will employment, your employer being able to fire you on a whim means they can ALSO hire on a whim, which is super duper important as it turns out! In France, it is not so. They end up resorting to 6 month contracts and outsourcing and other crap to gain that ability to be able to fire people more quickly.

For example. My better half just got a job as an associate programmer after learning programming from free Internet courses found on /r/programming for 18 months. No college diploma and zero paid programming experience. She has weaknesses. She's never used pointers or or taken calculus or design of algorithms. Would they have taken a chance on her if they didn't know they could fire her if she turns out to be a disaster?

I don't think so. I think at will employment is helping her out, even if it also means they can fire her when she gets sick. If you were asked to choose between a 55k job with security, and an 85k job with 0 security, would you really pick the first?

Is the at will system the best system out there? Probably not.

Does it have its advantages? Most definitely.

I think universal healthcare + UBI + at will employment is absolutely the way to go. (we just need the two missing pieces :p)
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,932
Scotland here.
I genuinely couldn't tell you the last time I took a sick day at work. Mainly because I honestly haven't been sick for years, but also because I get great holidays. I get slightly over 7 weeks worth and that so that also makes sure I'm decently rested and generally not temped to "take a sickie" as we call it.
Even if I do take time off it doesn't cut into my holiday time and if I;m ever fortunate enough to have health issues I'm safe in the knowledge that I'm legally entitled to my paid sick leave.
 

Rice Eater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,814
Here is a story I've only told a few people. When I first started my current job, I got sick on the 3rd day. I was running a bad fever but went to work anyways because American work culture taught me to fear calling out when I just barely started. So while there my supervisor asked me to go and help out else where but I was screwing up because I didn't know any better. She started chewing me out in front of others and it was stressing me out. This combined with the bad fever almost caused me to pass out and she noticed and had me walked to the cafeteria with help which made me feel so fucking embarrassed.

Turns out I ended up liking the job and stuck around. It definitely helps that vacation and sick time is more lenient here compared to any other place I've ever worked at. Thinking about this made me remember that there were times where my coworkers and I would criticize others for being out during their first week or two. Like how could they do that, they must be really lazy? This is how far too many Americans think too and it's that we do this to each other.
 

Wubby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,849
Japan!
I don't have sick leave here in Japan either. Well, technically I do, but I can only use it if I get cancer or need to be hospitalized for a long period of time. For stuff like the flu, or if I'm just feeling really shitty for a few days, I have to use my vacation days.

Yup no paid sick time here sadly. I actually had it at my old job back in the States though. It sucked not having any sick leave the other year when I broke my leg. Ended up using all my vacation for the year because of it.
 

Deleted member 9241

Oct 26, 2017
10,416
I have short term and long term disability (I pay extra through insurance for long term). I also have 500hrs of PTO. I'm good for the long haul if something catastrophic ever happened to me.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
In defense of America and at will employment, your employer being able to fire you on a whim means they can ALSO hire on a whim, which is super duper important as it turns out! In France, it is not so. They end up resorting to 6 month contracts and outsourcing and other crap to gain that ability to be able to fire people more quickly.

For example. My better half just got a job as an associate programmer after learning programming from free Internet courses found on /r/programming for 18 months. No college diploma and zero paid programming experience. She has weaknesses. She's never used pointers or or taken calculus or design of algorithms. Would they have taken a chance on her if they didn't know they could fire her if she turns out to be a disaster?

Sorry but this is a load of rubbish. In Spain for example she would just have got a contract with a trial period; exactly the same amount of risk for the company in this situation, without making long-time workers completely unprotected against the whims and abuses of companies in pretty much every other situation.

At-will employment as a one-size-fits-all solution for very specific situations (that already have very specific solutions) is downright absurd. You're just parroting conservative rethoric.

I don't think so. I think at will employment is helping her out, even if it also means they can fire her when she gets sick. If you were asked to choose between a 55k job with security, and an 85k job with 0 security, would you really pick the first?

What you're really choosing from is a 55k job in a country that cares for its less fortunate citizens vs 85k in a country that leaves them to die. Taking the 85k jobs means a) you don't give a fuck about those less fortunate than you (not fortunate enough to be making that choice, to begin with), and b) taking a bet that you will never e.g. become ill for an extended period of time. And I would absolutely pick the first every time.

I think universal healthcare + UBI + at will employment is absolutely the way to go. (we just need the two missing pieces :p)

I mean, sure, if you have UH and UBI then you can use whatever model of employment you want, because at that point you can't threaten anyone with poverty anymore. But that's as relevant to the advantages of at-will employment as saying that a LED lightbulb isn't much better than a conventional one, once you have cold fusion to power them and nanomachines to repair them when they fail.
 
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Beef Supreme

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,073
I get 7 days of sick leave a year. All other time comes out of my vacation time which I have 5 weeks of. But that's pretty uncommon in the States.
 
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Deleted member 46804

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 17, 2018
4,129
The US also has news stories every so often that celebrate people who never missed a day of work over the course of whatever their chosen profession they have. Only the "weak" don't work here. ☹️
 

Darth Karja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,401
I'm self-employed. I rarely get sick so I give myself a mental health day off once in awhile where I go hiking or something. Bullshit American work culture plays a large part into why I never want to work for someone else ever again unless I absolutely have to.
We have stuff like short term and long term disability let's say if you have a surgery or something unexpected happened. The problem is, you don't have any job security so your employer still can fire you during this time.
What I find insane is how many people say things like 'well my company provides health care' or 'my company gives me days...'.

It shouldn't be up to your employer! That's how they ransom you into never leaving.

Maternity time and pay should be law. Minimum vacation days should be law. The right to be sick and not be fired should be enshrined in law! You shouldn't be able to be fired for being gay or trans! By law!
I was going to quit my job and be a co owner of a company with a friend. But I can't get usable insurance without my job. I am stuck at my job the rest of my life because I need the great insurance. No amount of money could get me health insurance that was even worth having. More people would be able to start businesses if health insurance wasn't tied to employment.
 

Josh5890

I'm Your Favorite Poster's Favorite Poster
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,179
I get six days a year. I also work for a European company
 

Grug

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,644
In defense of America and at will employment, your employer being able to fire you on a whim means they can ALSO hire on a whim, which is super duper important as it turns out! In France, it is not so. They end up resorting to 6 month contracts and outsourcing and other crap to gain that ability to be able to fire people more quickly.

For example. My better half just got a job as an associate programmer after learning programming from free Internet courses found on /r/programming for 18 months. No college diploma and zero paid programming experience. She has weaknesses. She's never used pointers or or taken calculus or design of algorithms. Would they have taken a chance on her if they didn't know they could fire her if she turns out to be a disaster?

I don't think so. I think at will employment is helping her out, even if it also means they can fire her when she gets sick. If you were asked to choose between a 55k job with security, and an 85k job with 0 security, would you really pick the first?

Yeah, nah.

Most countries still have probationary periods for new hires. It is an entirely separate issue to providing staff with decent sick and vacation pay.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
17,915
Most of us don't travel out of the country. Also, the media doesn't cover deficiencies like this.

Probably because we don't have vacation days haha.

The worst part about the "fuck you, got mine" thing is how it is self-perpetuating. Many of the people who have "got theirs" struggled through the period where they didn't "have theirs". But once they "get theirs", cognitive dissonance kicks in and they then see the unfair struggle as a rite of passage they they "achieved". They are proud they have "worked" for their basic human rights.

Thus they can't stomach the idea of fixing the problem for the next generation because it devalues their own struggle... and that would be "unfair".

Yup. This applies to every aspect of life in the U.S. Look at our medical residencies. We work residents to the point of breaking down and burning out because older doctors with through it and so new doctors must do the same.

I had a law professor tell us that law school sucked for him so it has to suck for us.

It follows that the same would be applied to working while sick. "I worked while I was vomiting and had a 103 degree fever! Why can't you?!" It's why we can't have nice things.
 

Septimus Prime

EA
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
In defense of America and at will employment, your employer being able to fire you on a whim means they can ALSO hire on a whim, which is super duper important as it turns out! In France, it is not so. They end up resorting to 6 month contracts and outsourcing and other crap to gain that ability to be able to fire people more quickly.

For example. My better half just got a job as an associate programmer after learning programming from free Internet courses found on /r/programming for 18 months. No college diploma and zero paid programming experience. She has weaknesses. She's never used pointers or or taken calculus or design of algorithms. Would they have taken a chance on her if they didn't know they could fire her if she turns out to be a disaster?

I don't think so. I think at will employment is helping her out, even if it also means they can fire her when she gets sick. If you were asked to choose between a 55k job with security, and an 85k job with 0 security, would you really pick the first?

Is the at will system the best system out there? Probably not.

Does it have its advantages? Most definitely.

I think universal healthcare + UBI + at will employment is absolutely the way to go. (we just need the two missing pieces :p)
I think the actual advantage for the employee is that you can quit anytime without repercussion.

The thing is, though, that this relationship just happens to benefit the employer way more because, really, how many people just walk away from their compensation and benefits like that.
 
Oct 27, 2017
21,518
I was going to quit my job and be a co owner of a company with a friend. But I can't get usable insurance without my job. I am stuck at my job the rest of my life because I need the great insurance. No amount of money could get me health insurance that was even worth having. More people would be able to start businesses if health insurance wasn't tied to employment.
Well yes, we need to 100% decouple health care from a job. They shouldn't be tied together in any way, shape or form. That they're tied together is an accident of history we've just kept rolling with because reasons. And it's cost us all and the country in innumerable ways.
 

Jorav

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
128
I have hundreds of hours of sick leave accrued and typically when I get sick it's a day or two and I'm fine. Heck I can take a day off "sick" and not even need a certificate
 
Apr 24, 2018
3,605
I've been fortunate enough to have not gotten really ill or injured while employed/working (funnily enough, the times that I do get ill/seriously injured always seem to occur when I'm in between jobs or on vacation). I've been working for about a decade now and I've only called out sick three times during that span. I don't say that as a source of pride, but more so speaking to the fact that the work cultures that I've been in, calling in sick has basically been frowned upon and almost no one ever does it.

That being said, there have certainly been days where I haven't felt anywhere near my best and that if practices/work cultures at my previous employers didn't seem so rigid, I may have taken a day off here or there for something like being completely overly fatigued or a couple of times where I've had some pretty severe back pain suddenly flare up. Instead, in those cases, I've just sucked it up and gotten through those days. That being said, I've never gone in to work ill when there's even a remote chance that I could get someone else sick (e.g. a real fever, flu-like symptoms, etc.), and I never will.

I get 4 paid sick days a year at my current employer, which is the first time I've had a separate pool from PTO, but again, no plans on using them unless I have something that could effect other people, assuming we're back in the office again any time soon...
 

lemmykoopah

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
740
I live in Belgium and if you work for the state you have the 'right' to be sick for 1000 days in your whole career max. If you overshoot that you have to start watching out or you could end up losing your job or having your sick salary reduced to 40-50%. I'm grateful for these rights I'm given but I can also say that there are people who abuse the system.
 

Nesotenso

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,072
If I was ever offered a job in the US I really don't think I could take it. How do you go from 30 days holiday and no mandated sick leave to the ridiculous working conditions in the US.

I am only comparing engineering salaries here, but we get paid a lot more than those in Europe and in Canada. Also usually you will find more companies in any given sector.
 

GasProblem

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 18, 2017
3,148
In the Netherlands you get two years of paid sick leave. By law, your employer has to pay you 70% of your wages during those those years. Most collective labor agreements agree upon higher percentages though, especially during the first year (80-100%). During those two years your employer has to make an effort to reintegrate you, following the advice of a company doctor. Only after two years it's a possibility for your employer to fire you just because you're sick. To be able to do that they need to ask permission from a government institution. If your still sick after two years you can get on disability payment from the government, depending on your disability percentage.
 
Oct 27, 2017
73
Over in the UK many places don't pay sick pay, but at least we get 25 vacation days a year.
You can get SSP if you are off sick but at £90 a week it's not enough to get by on.
 

Br3wnor

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,982
I get 10 sick days a year that I rarely use, currently sitting on a bank of like 30. If I was ever to get seriously ill I can tap into a pooled sick bank for I think at least 6 months, not entirely sure. You have to donate 2 sick days after your first year of employment, it's voluntary but a no-brainer given the benefit.

Almost all my used sick days are for days I'm not actually sick, just pad out long weekends and stuff. US sucks but my policy isn't bad, I'd rather have a set amount then "unlimited" since they act as extra vacation days anyway and my friends who work for companies with unlimited sick days rarely use them since you feel like a dick using them if you're not actually sick
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
26,089
Yes, welcome to our sociopathic, capitalist hellhole. And all of the dumb monkeys that worship it as they make jack fucking shit, but maybe if you work harder we'll give you a $1 raise from the $10/hr that you make. Dance, monkey, dance.
 

Jogi

Prophet of Regret
Member
Jul 4, 2018
5,445
American work culture is all about making you feel guilty for the company fucking you. Certain states are slightly better (CA), but still welllll behind every other country.
 

Linkage76

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,122
I had unlimited time off at my old job. I worked there for 2 years and I think I took 40 days off per year. 2 weeks of those were at the end of the year where we shut down as a company. One of my coworkers took 4 months off (not in a row).

At my new job I get 3 weeks off and 3 sick days off a year :/. The company and the job are a huge upgrade over my previous company and position.

Edit: Both companies are Biotech companies in the Bay Area
 

Fuchsia

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,641
This is such a depressing thread. Yeah I get barely any sick time. Might have been exposed to COVID (waiting for a test result) and I'm honestly not sure what to do if I needed to be out for more than a week.

American work culture is pretty horrible ngl.
 

xir

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,566
Los Angeles, CA
What is this supposed to show? It says the US has no maternity leave, yet my job offers leave for both parents.
You answered your own question. Your job offers. The chart above is showing it on a government level. Like you could be a busboy in Scandinavia and have the same benefits as a lawyer (there might be caveats but you get the idea)
 

Fjordson

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,010
You can luck into a decent situation with large companies. I thankfully have unlimited sick leave / PTO at my current job, but overall employee's rights are a joke in America.

And even when you do fall into something good, the sad irony is that stuff like PTO and health insurance ties you to your job in unhealthy ways. I could completely despise my job, but I'd be incredibly reluctant to leave because of all those benefits.
 

J2d

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,140
I'd be stressed out as hell living in such a society and I'm surprised that there isn't more people going on violent rampages since it's clear that the goverment doesnt give a shit about you.
 

hateradio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,748
welcome, nowhere
Unless you work in a skilled role for a wealthy and benevolent large corporation, like me. In that case you are taken care of, with essentially unlimited sick days and no consequences. But obviously I'm the minority. You're either in the bubble, or you're fucked.
Benevolent large corporation 😹


But basically, kinda this. I work for an older company, and I can just email/slack my boss in the morning that I'm not feeling well and take the day off.
 

Grug

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,644
I think I'd be more likely to get sick if I lived in America, because I'd be up all night worrying about what would happen if I got sick.
 

Nilou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,715
Now that my regular unit I work on has been turned into a Covid treatment unit for quite some time day I go to work worrying not only about the health of the patients I care for but worrying if this shift will be the shift that I finally get Covid due to what it mean.

I live in a very liberal state but getting Covid means I'd be out of work for half a month with zero pay as there's no mandate requiring employers to pay staff who are out sick due to Covid. We get so little sick days allowed per year and it takes nearly 200 hours of work to earn a single sick day. If you don't have any sick days to use (most here dont) and have to call out, doctors note or not you'll lose ALL earned overtime pay if you worked overtime and any bonus's you might have earned during the 2 week pay period. If you call out twice in 90 days, sick or not, doctors note or not, you'll get written up or worse. It's just crazy and unfortunate. You're essentially forced to decide either to put your physical health at risk while sick by working or suffer punishment by reduced pay or possible disciplinary action...

This country is definitely backwards and crazy in many ways unfortunately.
 
Jun 19, 2020
1,133
When it comes to work and sick leave America is realy backwards. Here in Germany there are no limits to your sick days. But if your workplace is suspicious that you are faking or that they have an economic impact they can fire you after 6 weeks BUT it has to be forseeable that it stays the same in the future so if youre in a hospital / have a illness that is cured soon they cant fire you. Usualy your workplace wants you to provide them a sickleave paper from your doctor if youre missing more then 3 days. In some cases when a worker abuses this rule they can demand the sickleave from a doctor at the first day.

If you get sick during your vacation you get your vacation days back.
 

Sacul64

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,762
I now work in retail food service. Standard employees get about 40 hours of PTO a year. Zero sick time but as food handlers you are not meant to come to work sick. It's fucked up.
 
OP
OP
Angie

Angie

Best Avatar Thread Ever!
Member
Nov 20, 2017
39,391
Kingdom of Corona
I took two weeks off with my second child! I took four days with my first! USA USA USA

In both cases I was able to work from home (writing/editing and then teaching and had scheduled to teach online because I was due), and I actually considered myself lucky because I could so easily juggle WORKING and HAVING A NEWBORN.
What happens if the parent can't work from home? Who takes care of the newborn?
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,141
If you work for state gov, which is likely the largest employer in your state, you get to live almost like a European, it's awesome and I highly recommend it. A lot of people are conditioned to look down on civil and public service though. Saying you work for the government still generates laughs and snarky comments. Tell that to my 500 hours of sick time that I've accumulated in like 5 years. I'm encouraged to use it for anything from mental health days to helping my partner get through stuff, and I do.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
2,902
Scotland
The worst part about the "fuck you, got mine" thing is how it is self-perpetuating. Many of the people who have "got theirs" struggled through the period where they didn't "have theirs". But once they "get theirs", cognitive dissonance kicks in and they then see the unfair struggle as a rite of passage they they "achieved". They are proud they have "worked" for their basic human rights.

Thus they can't stomach the idea of fixing the problem for the next generation because it devalues their own struggle... and that would be "unfair".

Republicans keep getting re-elected on this mentality because many people in the working and middle classes keep voting against their own interests. They are voting on behalf of their mythical future millionaire self.

This is why we can't just hold onto the belief that things will just improve when the Boomers die. They were hippies once, now look at them.

Real talk. I agree with you 100%
 

bawjaws

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,574
edge
The worst part about the "fuck you, got mine" thing is how it is self-perpetuating. Many of the people who have "got theirs" struggled through the period where they didn't "have theirs". But once they "get theirs", cognitive dissonance kicks in and they then see the unfair struggle as a rite of passage they they "achieved". They are proud they have "worked" for their basic human rights.

Thus they can't stomach the idea of fixing the problem for the next generation because it devalues their own struggle... and that would be "unfair".

Republicans keep getting re-elected on this mentality because many people in the working and middle classes keep voting against their own interests. They are voting on behalf of their mythical future millionaire self.

This is why we can't just hold onto the belief that things will just improve when the Boomers die. They were hippies once, now look at them.
Amen.

The proportion of Americans who are millionaires is pretty low, but the proportion of Americans who believe that they will one day become millionaires is far, far higher. It's that bullshit that if you just work hard enough then anyone can "make it", but the game is so fucking rigged that it's just untrue.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,354
What always gets me with the "that's capitalism!" and "market regulates itself" soundbites is:
American employers are shit at being capitalists!

They don't factor in worker efficiency, they don't factor in collateral damage from sick workers infecting other workers, they don't factor in a sick worker generally being inefficient short-term and long-term
I always remember the common trope of the waitress in a diner getting fired for coming late or for wanting to take a day off because the kid needs to go to the doctor. The employer fires her at the spot and looks for a replacement for MONTHS. What kind of galaxy-brain capitalism is that?

No, the issues with the American system isn't text-book capitalism, rather monkey-capitalism-wannabe.
The issues are racism, sexism, and classism. Anything that COULD benefit someone they don't like is a no-go. Even if it would benefit themselves.
 

Couleurs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,350
Denver, CO
If you work for state gov, which is likely the largest employer in your state, you get to live almost like a European, it's awesome and I highly recommend it. A lot of people are conditioned to look down on civil and public service though. Saying you work for the government still generates laughs and snarky comments. Tell that to my 500 hours of sick time that I've accumulated in like 5 years. I'm encouraged to use it for anything from mental health days to helping my partner get through stuff, and I do.

Yeah that's one of the big reasons why I went into government (great benefits and work/life balance). My employer gets mad if I don't take enough time off during the year
 

Mengy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,377
As a born and bred American, I just have to say:



It's true. All of it.

Our system sucks over here.