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So how did Big Boss return to the US to lead Foxhound?

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,592
Before the release of MGS V, one of the things I wanted explained was how Big Boss could return to the US and lead Foxhound by the time of the events in the original Metal Gear. In Peace Walker, Big Boss is already disillusioned with the US, has formed his own mercenary group, and is at odds with Zero and the Patriots. This is still true by the end of MGS V. Even if Zero is in a coma by time of the original Metal Gear, the Patriot AIs would be running the country and it seems odd that Big Boss could just walk back in and lead a special forces group. I would think there would be multiple people or groups within this whole conspiracy plot that would object and still want him dead.

I looked online to see if it was explained somewhere in the games or elsewhere but couldn't find anything. All the wikis just say that after 20 years, he just decides to return to the US to lead Foxhound with seemingly no objections from anyone. Kojima likes to over explain things but this weirdly goes unexplained and it has slightly bugged me over the years. Not a big deal but MGSV was supposed to be the link from the Big Boss saga to the Solid Snake one and it did that, just not in the ways that I expected to say the least.
 

Deleted member 38050

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 10, 2018
706
It's so fucking annoying how MGS5 was supposed to fill in the gaps in the Big Boss story but just created more questions and confusion because now there are two Big Bosses aaaaa
 

srtrestre

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,972
I hear it's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm in flap-jaw space with the tuning fork does a raw blink on Hara-Kiri Rock.
 
Gamer @ Heart

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,613
Remember how fortune in MGS2, after learning it was a device inserted into her that was reflecting bullets and not luck, suddenly deflected fucking missiles through willpower after it was shut off?
 
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The Silver

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,725
You could make a game out of it. Big Boss and Ocelot need to be on the inside to inact their plans so they manufacturer a crisis that ends with BB being back in the good graces of the US and the Patriots jump at the chance to put Big Boss under their thumb.
 
Alastor3

Alastor3

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,297
i will never forgive Konami of rushing MGS5 and not letting Kojima finish MGS5 properly.

In my mind, 5 doesnt exist and im okay with the other game being the entire serie
 
Gamer @ Heart

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,613
Alastor3 said:
i will never forgive Konami of rushing MGS5 and not letting Kojima finish MGS5 properly.

In my mind, 5 doesnt exist and im okay with the other game being the entire serie
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Whatever that final act we all wish existed would have had, none of it would have fixed the horrible storytelling devices he used to tell that horrible plot people guessed the twist of from trailer 1. All of that's on his head.
 
jsnepo

jsnepo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,648
Zero was obsessed with making Big Boss some sort of redeemer or icon for the world he wants to create and this will has been passed on to the AIs so when Big Boss came back, US just accepted him.
 
WordsAndDreams

WordsAndDreams

Member
Jan 4, 2018
1,158
Jacobbles said:
It's so fucking annoying how MGS5 was supposed to fill in the gaps in the Big Boss story but just created more questions and confusion because now there are two Big Bosses aaaaa
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Isn't that kind of the point of MGSV, though? It explains how BB can be in two places at once in MG1 and how he can still be alive in MG2. The details and logistics are still a little muddy, but I think things make more sense now in a big-picture sense.
 
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Betty

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
Big Boss just returned and negotiated a deal to spearhead Foxhound.

I can imagine he'd be a valuable asset for America to have.

Meanwhile Venom builds Outer Heaven.
 
BadWolf

BadWolf

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,148
It's explained in MGSV.

Ocelot pretty much spells it out in the ending.
 
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MechaX

MechaX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,044
WordsAndDreams said:
Isn't that kind of the point of MGSV, though? It explains how BB can be in two places at once in MG1 and how he can still be alive in MG2. The details and logistics are still a little muddy, but I think things make more sense now in a big-picture sense.
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But... didn't they say that Big Boss was partly cybernetic in MG2? Why would he even need Venom as a cover for that?
 
WordsAndDreams

WordsAndDreams

Member
Jan 4, 2018
1,158
MechaX said:
But... didn't they say that Big Boss was partly cybernetic in MG2? Why would he even need Venom as a cover for that?
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As far as I know, during MG1 BB was in the US to keeps tabs on and to look for Zero while V was building up Outer Heaven. Snake was supposed to fail, but when he didn't, BB had to move on to plan B. I assume he got the cybernetic parts to try and create an excuse for how he could still be alive after MG1 without admitting to V being the one that was actually in Outer Heaven.

There's a lot of implied stuff throughout the series regarding his legacy as a soldier, so I'm guessing he was trying to maintain that. But to be honest I have no idea, I can't deny that Kojima's retroactive storytelling doesn't fully line up all the time.
 
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Madao

Madao

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,697
Panama
maybe Kojima left that unexplained since he probably intended to remake the first 2 MGs after V but then the fallout with Konami happened.
 
Gunny T Highway

Gunny T Highway

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,027
Canada
Gamer @ Heart said:
Remember how fortune in MGS2, after learning it was a device inserted into her that was reflecting bullets and not luck, suddenly deflected fucking missiles through willpower after it was shut off?
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Oh I remember. It was metaphorically her dead father that protected her.

Really it was just a dumb written moment because Kojima loves that stuff.
 
BadWolf

BadWolf

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,148
Okay, this is getting pretty sad.

As usual people just hate away without paying any attention to the story in MGSV and then blame the game.
 
Ether_Snake

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
My head cannon after MGS3 was so much better than what we got.

So The Boss showed Big Boss what it meant to follow orders, to be just another pawn with a gun. She couldn't break free, but in her last mission she passed on what she felt to Big Boss, so that maybe he wouldn't follow in her footsteps, so that he might break free, or at least have the choice to break free.

Big Boss ultimately ends up in the same situation, and by the time of MG1 he is on a secret mission for The Patriots, which is to pretend he is betraying his country to create an Outer Heaven for revolutionaries, much like The Boss pretended to side with the Russians. The Patriots plan to gather them all and crush them at once. Big Boss sends Solid Snake on a mission. Big Boss actually plays out his role, just like The Boss had, to force Snake to hate him, to shape him into who Snake would eventually become. It's the only way he knows of to break the cycle. Snake kills him never knowing the truth, and Big Boss succeeds in freeing Snake from going down the same path he had.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
Madao said:
maybe Kojima left that unexplained since he probably intended to remake the first 2 MGs after V but then the fallout with Konami happened.
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i can kinda see this, he was busily retconning so much before that too
alternative: someone else would've started the remakes after the kojima cycle of saying he's forever done with the series & then he would've said FINE and tied together his batshit crazy story

BadWolf said:
Okay, this is getting pretty sad.

As usual people just hate away without paying any attention to the story in MGSV and then blame the game.
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ill be honest, i know it's a huge bummer that V didn't properly tie up but as someone who dug the direction they were clearly taking in portable ops/peace walker, i enjoyed my time with V a lot more than IV. the scarce story bits were harsh but far more coherent/interesting than the mess that was IV's narrative, nevermind they didn't even let old man snake go (a move even hayter called weak).

Ether_Snake said:
My head cannon after MGS3 was so much better than what we got.

So The Boss showed Big Boss what it meant to follow orders, to be just another pawn with a gun. She couldn't break free, but in her last mission she passed on what she felt to Big Boss, so that maybe he wouldn't follow in her footsteps, so that he might break free, or at least have the choice to break free.

Big Boss ultimately ends up in the same situation, and by the time of MG1 he is on a secret mission for The Patriots, which is to pretend he is betraying his country to create an Outer Heaven for revolutionaries, much like The Boss pretended to side with the Russians. The Patriots plan to gather them all and crush them at once. Big Boss sends Solid Snake on a mission, to sort of cover what's happening because few know of the plot, essentially sent to act like something is being done. But The Patriots expect Snake to be killed anyway. Big Boss actually plays out his role, just like The Boss had, to force Snake to hate him, to shape him into who Snake would eventually become. It's the only way he knows of to break the cycle. Snake kills him never knowing the truth, and Big Boss succeeds in freeing Snake from going down the same path he had.
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well shit, yeah that's a lot better than what we got, for sure

i really was hoping we'd one day get to play the end of MG1 but as boss, and do that narrative thing where he won't finish things/win because of some reason like that
 
BadWolf

BadWolf

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,148
Ether_Snake said:
My head cannon after MGS3 was so much better than what we got.

So The Boss showed Big Boss what it meant to follow orders, to be just another pawn with a gun. She couldn't break free, but in her last mission she passed on what she felt to Big Boss, so that maybe he wouldn't follow in her footsteps, so that he might break free, or at least have the choice to break free.

Big Boss ultimately ends up in the same situation, and by the time of MG1 he is on a secret mission for The Patriots, which is to pretend he is betraying his country to create an Outer Heaven for revolutionaries, much like The Boss pretended to side with the Russians. The Patriots plan to gather them all and crush them at once. Big Boss sends Solid Snake on a mission. Big Boss actually plays out his role, just like The Boss had, to force Snake to hate him, to shape him into who Snake would eventually become. It's the only way he knows of to break the cycle. Snake kills him never knowing the truth, and Big Boss succeeds in freeing Snake from going down the same path he had.
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What we got is so much better.

BB's heel turn in MGSV is perfect.

IrishNinja said:
ill be honest, i know it's a huge bummer that V didn't properly tie up but as someone who dug the direction they were clearly taking in portable ops/peace walker, i enjoyed my time with V a lot more than IV. the scarce story bits were harsh but far more coherent/interesting than the mess that was IV's narrative, nevermind they didn't even let old man snake go (a move even hayter called weak).
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MGSV tied up everything that needed to be tied up while leaving just enough for the imagination.

The only missing portion is Episode 51 but we know what happened there thanks to the summary video KojiPro put together.
 
FantasticMrFoxdie

FantasticMrFoxdie

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
16,409
Mushroom Kingdom
Ether_Snake said:
My head cannon after MGS3 was so much better than what we got.

So The Boss showed Big Boss what it meant to follow orders, to be just another pawn with a gun. She couldn't break free, but in her last mission she passed on what she felt to Big Boss, so that maybe he wouldn't follow in her footsteps, so that he might break free, or at least have the choice to break free.

Big Boss ultimately ends up in the same situation, and by the time of MG1 he is on a secret mission for The Patriots, which is to pretend he is betraying his country to create an Outer Heaven for revolutionaries, much like The Boss pretended to side with the Russians. The Patriots plan to gather them all and crush them at once. Big Boss sends Solid Snake on a mission. Big Boss actually plays out his role, just like The Boss had, to force Snake to hate him, to shape him into who Snake would eventually become. It's the only way he knows of to break the cycle. Snake kills him never knowing the truth, and Big Boss succeeds in freeing Snake from going down the same path he had.
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Oh damn.

Fqcs4ID.gif
 
OP
OP

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,592
Ether_Snake said:
My head cannon after MGS3 was so much better than what we got.

So The Boss showed Big Boss what it meant to follow orders, to be just another pawn with a gun. She couldn't break free, but in her last mission she passed on what she felt to Big Boss, so that maybe he wouldn't follow in her footsteps, so that he might break free, or at least have the choice to break free.

Big Boss ultimately ends up in the same situation, and by the time of MG1 he is on a secret mission for The Patriots, which is to pretend he is betraying his country to create an Outer Heaven for revolutionaries, much like The Boss pretended to side with the Russians. The Patriots plan to gather them all and crush them at once. Big Boss sends Solid Snake on a mission. Big Boss actually plays out his role, just like The Boss had, to force Snake to hate him, to shape him into who Snake would eventually become. It's the only way he knows of to break the cycle. Snake kills him never knowing the truth, and Big Boss succeeds in freeing Snake from going down the same path he had.
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I think MGS 3 alone was sufficient to set up the motivations of Big Boss. You sympathize with why someone like him would turn his back on his country and try to create a place for soldiers. The scene of Big Boss saluting and crying in front of the Boss' grave was everything you needed to know about his downfall.
 
TheMadTitan

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,246
Before MGS5, the compounding events of both Portable Ops and Peace Walker would point to Big Boss returning as to not undermine his position with The Philosophers/Cipher/The Patriots. Major Zero saw Big Boss as soldier Jesus, so there was no way he wouldn't take him back without hesitation. And from there, he'd work with EVA & Ocelot to maintain MSF, build Outer Heaven, and use those angles as leverage to free the world from Patriot control. This would've resulted in a wedge between Big Boss and Miller anyway, given that Miller was secretly working for Cipher through the entirety of Peace Walker.

MG1 to MG2 was essentially Big Boss escaping his death.

MGS5 barely changed any of this; it just delayed everything. It delayed Big Boss rejoining the Patriots because he did his own thing for a bit longer and XOF went rogue. The second Big Boss comes from the fact that Jack needed a decoy, so he used Venom as that decoy, so on and so forth. Given Zero's constant manipulation of the situation that Big Boss wanted to escape from, he continued to plot off screen with Ocelot and EVA and built Outer Heaven while the world thought he was out and operating in public. Then ,once again, Zero saw him as soldier Jesus, he went back to the Patriots because he needed to divert attention away from the fact that he was on the verge of waging war with them.

Then he tosses Venom over to Outer Heaven. So now, instead of escaping death, Venom dies and the OG Big Boss goes on to rebuild in Zanzibarland.
 
SugarNoodles

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
Berserker976 said:
I have to agree with this. After MGS3 was the point at which the fewest amount of questions were left unanswered. PW, 4, and V all added way more than they answered. And the questions they added were dumb. The answers they gave were also dumb.
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I dont really know how to articulate how bad it felt when Peacewalker regressed Big Boss from having closure at the end of MGS3 to tripping over "arrrrrrgh why did she do it? why did she do it?" Like, MGS3 told us exactly why she did it.

The whole "this is a human person but transplanted into a computer" thing just made it worse.

Ugh. Garbage.
 
Ether_Snake

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
HockeyBird said:
I think MGS 3 alone was sufficient to set up the motivations of Big Boss. You sympathize with why someone like him would turn his back on his country and try to create a place for soldiers. The scene of Big Boss saluting and crying in front of the Boss' grave was everything you needed to know about his downfall.
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Except that he is a "monster" in MG/MG2. What I was thinking was, The Patriots "own" Big Boss, like they managed to manipulate The Boss to the point where she just did what they told her to even though you could tell that deep inside it crushed her. Now if Big Boss is on a mission just like The Boss was, and his own son is sent to kill him, maybe because he has filled his purpose and they will now carry on the same with Solid Snake, his last chance is to break Snake free from that control, so unlike The Boss he doesn't reveal the truth to Snake, he becomes his worst enemy, to make Snake reject war and being another guy with a gun, and lives on in his mind and in history as a monster.

Also, Liquid Snake could be seen as one who never broke free, as in he thinks he is acting on his own but is getting played, he has become Big Boss' replacement, the "monster" Big Boss, but even better because he doesn't even realize it: he has become the monster Big Boss pretended to be for The Patriots, but they are pulling his strings. When he comes back in MGS2, that is the only time Liquid is actually free because it's just some outright unplanned side-effect of the nanomachines in him that survived and "polluted" Ocelot's mind or some such. It's not really Liquid, but a copy born out of the nanomachines' monitoring and control system that The Patriots had used to control him. Cue the explanation for Big Boss existing in MG2; it was the nanomachines controlling a "resurrected" Big Boss; a copy of his mind that took a life of its own after Snake killed him in MG1. This ties in nicely to MGS2 and how The Patriots are revealed to be AIs that embody the ideas of dead people. Same thing.

In MGS4, The Patriots' system of control and never-ending war is basically a revelation that the synthetic ideals of the original Patriots isn't quite right, that the digital cannot quite encompass the complexity of the human mind and ends up going down a path of confirmation-bias, resulting in a world that is controlled to serve a purpose in a mechanical way rather than a human one. All things that could have been seen through MG1, MG2, Liquid Snake's return, etc.
 

sonicmj1

Member
Oct 25, 2017
680
RestEerie said:
actually this at least perfectly explained the big boss 'resurrection' in Metal Gear 2....because the one being killed in MG1 is not Naked but Punished
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Why is Big Boss surviving MG1 somehow more improbable than him turning one of his underlings into an equally capable double using plastic surgery and hypnotism?

After all, Big Boss already survives MG2, where he was torched with a flamethrower.
 
Jojo Sonoshe

Jojo Sonoshe

Alt Account
Banned
Aug 19, 2019
72
Everything after MGS3 has basically just been shitting on MGS3. After MGS3 it was clear enough why things went the way they did. Big Boss was in complete disillusion after what happen. It's all so very well presented in the ending cutscene where he won't shake the FBI head's hand. That one cutscene tells you everything about Big Boss and why he eventually became a villain. His entire worldview was destroyed.

Then all the sequels come and are like "we need to over explain and ruin MGS3"

MGS4: Actually even though it doesn't make any sense, everyone was effected by the Bosses' sacrifice even people who hardly interacted with her!

PW: Actually it wasn't the ultimate sacrifice. It was a hired hit and this lame idiot Hot Coleman planned it all. Also Big Boss is a gun and what even is his character anymore?

PO: By the way I guess maybe you got the idea from Gene....and Sokolov is alive. Eh forgot this.

MGS5: Who even cares anymore and also I guess there was this Skullface guy involved in operation Snake Eater for some unknown reason.

This series really went to shit when Kojima couldn't just leave Snake Eater alone. He just kept adding and changing the events.
 
Ether_Snake

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
Also there is countless changes that have taken place during MGS4's development. They were working on having The Patriots visible somehow, Kojima talked about an effect they were trying to achieve that would be like translucent skin with a skull underneath, which is something we see in MGS2's codec conversations with the AIs.

There was also talk of how you could burn an area, and when you would come back years later it would have changed but taking into account how it had been burned. Which sounded to me like we would replay MG2's ending where you burn Big Boss to death and come back to the same site later.
 
thetrin

thetrin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,653
Atlanta, GA
Yeah, that part annoys me too. You're telling me that Big Boss is a hunted man by Cypher, who controls the US govt, and at some point, Big Boss goes back and forms Foxhound...and NO ONE HAS AN ISSUE WITH THIS?! Did they just...FORGET?!
 
TheMadTitan

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,246
Berserker976 said:
I have to agree with this. After MGS3 was the point at which the fewest amount of questions were left unanswered. PW, 4, and V all added way more than they answered. And the questions they added were dumb. The answers they gave were also dumb.
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But Portable Ops explains not only how the Patriots form, but also how Big Boss gets both the idea and funding for Outer Heaven.

For that, it should remain.
 
OP
OP

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,592
Ether_Snake said:
Except that he is a "monster" in MG/MG2. What I was thinking was, The Patriots "own" Big Boss, like they managed to manipulate The Boss to the point where she just did what they told her to even though you could tell that deep inside it crushed her. Now if Big Boss is on a mission just like The Boss was, and his own son is sent to kill him, maybe because he has filled his purpose and they will now carry on the same with Solid Snake, his last chance is to break Snake free from that control, so unlike The Boss he doesn't reveal the truth to Snake, he becomes his worst enemy, to make Snake reject war and being another guy with a gun, and lives on in his mind and in history as a monster.

Also, Liquid Snake could be seen as one who never broke free, as in he thinks he is acting on his own but is getting played, he has become Big Boss' replacement, the "monster" Big Boss, but even better because he doesn't even realize it: he has become the monster Big Boss pretended to be for The Patriots, but they are pulling his strings. When he comes back in MGS2, that is the only time Liquid is actually free because it's just some outright unplanned side-effect of the nanomachines in him that survived and "polluted" Ocelot's mind or some such. It's not really Liquid, but a copy born out of the nanomachines' monitoring and control system that The Patriots had used to control him. Cue the explanation for Big Boss existing in MG2; it was the nanomachines controlling a "resurrected" Big Boss; a copy of his mind that took a life of its own after Snake killed him in MG1. This ties in nicely to MGS2 and how The Patriots are revealed to be AIs that embody the ideas of dead people. Same thing.

In MGS4, The Patriots' system of control and never-ending war is basically a revelation that the synthetic ideals of the original Patriots isn't quite right, that the digital cannot quite encompass the complexity of the human mind and ends up going down a path of confirmation-bias, resulting in a world that is controlled to serve a purpose in a mechanical way rather than a human one. All things that could have been seen through MG1, MG2, Liquid Snake's return, etc.
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Eh, I don't think it's a stretch to go from the hero in MGS3 to the villainous schemer he was in the original Metal Gear. Say Peace Walker and V were never made. Well you can imagine how 30 years of bitterness, fighting wars, and doing you shading things of your own for the government you hate could turn Big Boss into a villain. Plus, the Metal Gear series didn't shy away from over the top villains. So I don't think the transformation really needed all the explanation really. MGS3 is my favorite in the series. But the worst thing to come out of it is that Kojima became obsessed with making the Metal Gear series about Big Boss and turning him into someone you were sympathetic towards and routed for. I feel that's a very popular to do in Japanese media. Take a bad person and somehow redeem that person, despite all of the terrible things they have done.
 
Xpike

Xpike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,676
dude prolly just went back
aint like he wasnt still respected in the us, peace walker shows he can talk directly to top government officials just by reputation alone
plus no one knew he was a psycho until outer heaven in 1995
 
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