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Stoney Mason

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,921
I normally don't make threads like this but I went to play a game just now and was slightly annoyed by this and it happens pretty frequently.

Not gonna name the game because I don't want it to turn into a dogpile on just that game and it happens in ALOT of games. Especially games that come from europe I notice but it also happens in American games also.

When I create a character in games, I generally am not trying to create myself. I'm just trying to get a cool looking character but I do try to get the skin tone to match. In this particular game I just tried, all the various skin colors are basically white person to tanned white person even though clearly the color swatches beneath are trying to offer a variety but not doing a good job of it. The darkest skin tone looks nothing like a black person's skin color despite the color patch beneath indicating this is clearly the person of color skin tone. It's annoying and pulls me out of the immersion of character creation when the skin tone options are this transparently lacking.

There is another issue on the other side of the coin, that when some games do have black skin tones, they simply crank up the black where the character literally looks like a monster. It no longer looks like a skin tone. The white skin by comparison will have perfect lighting that reflect that a white skin is not just a crayon color of white. But the lighting for black skin doesn't have this subtly when it comes to showing off the skin and instead turns the character into a monster. It looks nothing like dark skin especially compared to real life.

Game makers have gotten better with this over the course of my life where I remember just a decade or two ago, dark skin options in some games weren't even a thing which was ridiculous. And some games actually do a good job of it with their character creators, but games can and should be doing much better on this front. Pet peeve of mine.
 

s y

Member
Nov 8, 2017
10,433
Nioh 2 has an incredible character creator for black characters. Very good options for skin color and features.

It even solves the hair problem(japanese games rarely have appropriate black hair options) by having a curliness slider for every hair style available
 

Mimosa

Community & Social Media Manager
Verified
Oct 23, 2019
795
Undertones with deeper skin tones seem to be really difficult for white artists. Idk why the default is to give characters this strange gray cast as soon as they try and represent darker skin tones...
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
It sucks because most games with a CaC, the black skin tone goes from like Drake light skin to like Grace Jones black with the in between being this weird shiny brown that makes no sense. I'm milk chocolate complexion. Why can't I find a tone that fits me!?
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,323
I'm assuming better black skin tones will become more commonplace as graphical fidelity continues to make strides and more artists are taught up front how to make it happen, but you're right that it's not great atm. It's even worse the further back you go in character creator history.
 
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Stoney Mason

Stoney Mason

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,921
It sucks because most games with a CaC, the black skin tone goes from like Drake light skin to like Grace Jones black with the in between being this weird shiny brown that makes no sense. I'm milk chocolate complexion. Why can't I find a tone that fits me!?
Yeah its really limiting when the only black options go from light skinned black person/tanned white person to greasepaint black face. That was literally my option in another game I tried a couple of days ago that I also won't name. I was like wtf.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
I'm assuming better black skin tones will become more commonplace as graphical fidelity continues to make strides and more artists are taught up front how to make it happen, but you're right that it's not great atm. It's even worse the further back you go in character creator history.
What does graphical fidelity have to do with it?

I think it primarily has to do with whatever material they use for darker skin tones. By "material" I mean the properties given to surfaces that determine how light interacts with that surface. Even when it comes to TV/film, there's lighting that particularly accentuates darker skin tones, but with games where the lighting is going to be the same for everyone, they really need to work on the material IMO
 
Last edited:
Feb 29, 2020
401
Most games with black skin tones end up making our characters look really weird... They should invest a lot more to get some accuracy...
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,323
What does graphical fidelity have to do with it?
Well for example, take a look at something like FFXIV's character creator. In general the options for darker skin colors are not great, but I bet a lot of that has to do with the game engine's complete lack of material lighting. Everything is sort of just painted on with textures and bumpmaps. As another user in here was saying there is no ability with an older game engine like that to use complex lighting and coloration via undertones. As better tech becomes common place we are able to better represent the depth in skin tones a lot easier. Skin IRL exists in layers and that's what gives said tones their complexity in terms of lighting.
 

BlackBoyFly

Member
Oct 12, 2020
172
This has always bothered me since I was a kid. Very few games get black skin tone, hair and features right.

Man, must be nice to not have to even think about issues like this lol.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
Well for example, take a look at something like FFXIV's character creator. In general the options for darker skin colors are not great, but I bet a lot of that has to do with the game engine's complete lack of material lighting. Everything is sort of just painted on with textures and bumpmaps. As another user in here was saying there is no ability with an older game engine like that to use complex lighting and coloration via undertones. As better tech becomes common place we are able to better represent the depth in skin tones a lot easier. Skin IRL exists in layers and that's what gives said tones their complexity in terms of lighting.

Chances are they just didn't bother to actual test that darker complexions look right under different conditions. They adjusted everything for white/tan because the characters the devs created and the vast majority of NPCs only range from white to tan. So I don't think tech is a limiting factor.
 

Zuko

Member
Aug 11, 2020
895
Also working on black facial features. So many games don't have proper facial features and it often looks like a white guy in black face.
 

Deleted member 17210

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,569
Games should have tools to allow you to blend multiple colours. A lot of black or South Asian people don't simply have purely "brown" skin but often layers of orange/red in there. Even for white people options, more pink hues or freckles are often left out. I don't see why developers can't just offer a huge range of options. These aren't 8-bit systems with limited palettes. It shouldn't be hard to accommodate.
 

Samiya

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 30, 2019
4,811
Speaking of, Prettydarke has an open-source afro hair library they developed:

afrohairlibrary.org

Open Source Afro Hair Library

The Open Source Afro Hair Library provides access to free, high quality 3D models of Black hair textures and styles.

prettydarke.cool

Open Source Afro Hair Library

This blog post from 2020 details my initial research around 3D representations of Black bodies and culture. To see how this project has developed, please visit afrohairlibrary.org. ——&#…

 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,323
Chances are they just didn't bother to actual test that darker complexions look right under different conditions. They adjusted everything for white/tan because the characters the devs created and the vast majority of NPCs only range from white to tan. So I don't think tech is a limiting factor.
Yeah a lot of it absolutely has to do with the world the devs are creating, no argument there. You can do a lot with a little. I was just saying that making things look right gets easier over time as better engine tools become standard, even for the artists that would otherwise tend to whiff when it comes to doing the due research and putting in the right efforts. But there's no doubt that certain artists/dev teams have done better with less.
 

Black_Stride

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
7,389
Well for example, take a look at something like FFXIV's character creator. In general the options for darker skin colors are not great, but I bet a lot of that has to do with the game engine's complete lack of material lighting. Everything is sort of just painted on with textures and bumpmaps. As another user in here was saying there is no ability with an older game engine like that to use complex lighting and coloration via undertones. As better tech becomes common place we are able to better represent the depth in skin tones a lot easier. Skin IRL exists in layers and that's what gives said tones their complexity in terms of lighting.

Half life 2
video-game-life-2-dr-eli-vance-vest-800x980.jpg
 

Black_Stride

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
7,389
That looks great. Again, I'm not saying it's bottlenecked by technology like AT ALL. I'm saying less skilled or learned artists won't have to rely on their skills or knowledge in the future.

Its a lack of awareness almost certainly due to lack of diversity.
Technology has nothing to do with it, if you design 'make black skin = subtract white", even the most advanced offline renderer will give you bad results.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,323
Its a lack of awareness almost certainly due to lack of diversity.
Technology has nothing to do with it, if you design 'make black skin = subtract white", even the most advanced offline renderer will give you bad results.
There's totally a case to be made there, but 15 years from now AI will be auto-correcting this sort of visual problem. I pray that doesn't offset the absolute need for more diversity in the industry.
 

Black_Stride

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
7,389
There's totally a case to be made there, but 15 years from now AI will be auto-correcting this sort of visual problem. I pray that doesn't offset the absolute need for more diversity in the industry.

Its quite insulting to try blame this on "technology".
Pre-SSS it was possible to represent pretty much all skintones......devs just dont care, but lets keep blaming it on game engines not being advanced enough to represent us yeah?
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,614
Nioh 2 has an incredible character creator for black characters. Very good options for skin color and features.

It even solves the hair problem(japanese games rarely have appropriate black hair options) by having a curliness slider for every hair style available
Yeah Nioh 2 is incredible
 

headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,620
And more than two hairstyles would be great. Not every black guy sports an afro or cornrows exclusively.
 

Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,408
Chances are they just didn't bother to actual test that darker complexions look right under different conditions. They adjusted everything for white/tan because the characters the devs created and the vast majority of NPCs only range from white to tan. So I don't think tech is a limiting factor.

I think what this person is saying is that this engine is so old that it lacks features like subsurface scattering that would allow for the technical interaction between skin and light that you're suggesting. All you get is the flat colour, that's it. You can have a kaleidoscope of colours and it doesn't look natural because the tech is several generations old.


This isn't a create-a-character character. This is a completely ground-up custom piece of artwork that is trying to emulate real life. you're comparing apples to oranges here.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,252
Shit like this is why I held off on creating black people in character creators and usually went with another minority group. The only middle of the road option being a shade more akin to a days worth of chimney sweeping wasn't appealing to me in the slightest.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,613
I haven't played Demon's Souls, but the character creator impressed me a lot from what I saw.

50566766908_3ac104b709_h.jpg
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,252
I think what this person is saying is that this engine is so old that it lacks features like subsurface scattering that would allow for the technical interaction between skin and light that you're suggesting. All you get is the flat colour, that's it. You can have a kaleidoscope of colours and it doesn't look natural because the tech is several generations old.
That doesn't jive with me because these games often had some shit in the world that was the appropriate shade. Or they could've used textures.

There's no reason why KoTOR can have accurate black skin tones but Dragon Age Origins has "I just swam through soot."
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,323
Its quite insulting to try blame this on "technology".
Pre-SSS it was possible to represent pretty much all skintones......devs just dont care, but lets keep blaming it on game engines not being advanced enough to represent us yeah?
I'm just gonna step away now as I completely agree with your points on dev effort and care yet we are unable to make this exchange constructive. Thanks for the dialogue.
I haven't played Demon's Souls, but the character creator impressed me a lot from what I saw.

50566766908_3ac104b709_h.jpg
I was super impressed with the DeS creator when I started that game, especially coming off previous From games creators. The skin tones look great and have lots of nuance which is quite impressive because you can make some weird non-human ones too.
 
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Stoney Mason

Stoney Mason

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,921
I definitely think technology can help in lots of different ways. But also diversity of people on staff does help. I guarantee if white people were limited with the options black people have it would change because the people working on it would say, this looks terrible and embarrassing and needs to be fixed/improved. But without that you end up with people either not creating those characters to see it looks terrible, or worse people who just don't care and put in the limited amount of work just to say that people can create black characters even if it looks terrible. Even if you come from a culture where black people aren't prevalent, it should be a matter of professional responsibility to get that part right for the sake of your audience.

In a world where SpeedTree exists how is character creation so woefully underserved in some cases.
 

Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,408
Proving its not a technological limitation.

again apples and oranges, custom piece of art created specifically to look realistic by dedicated artists, and an extremely limited cookie cutter create a character that doesn't even have proper sliders and isnt realistic in the least, characters don't even have the kind of blemish detail seen in half life 2
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
I think what this person is saying is that this engine is so old that it lacks features like subsurface scattering that would allow for the technical interaction between skin and light that you're suggesting. All you get is the flat colour, that's it. You can have a kaleidoscope of colours and it doesn't look natural because the tech is several generations old.

Yeah, but those same limitations would apply to lighter skin tones as well...
The point is, it isn't a tech issue. It's a focus issue.
They tailor all their asset creation, testing, and adjustments around lighter skin tones
That's it
There's no mystery. It's not like this is just the case with video game character creators. Any system that tries to emulate human skin tones or appearances are only as good as what it's programmed to do or, in the case of ML, the data is was trained with. I don't know why you're trying to complicate it
 

Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,408
That doesn't jive with me because these games often had some shit in the world that was the appropriate shade. Or they could've used textures.

There's no reason why KoTOR can have accurate black skin tones but Dragon Age Origins has "I just swam through soot."
I want to be clear here. I agree that we need to do better. I just think in the example of ffxiv the problem could not even begin to be solved without addressing the fundamental limitation of a 10 year old MMO character creator which was limited and below industry standard even when it first released
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,323
I definitely think technology can help in lots of different ways. But also diversity of people on staff does help. I guarantee if white people were limited with the options black people would have it would change because the people working on it would say, this looks terrible and embarrassing and needs to be fixed/improved. But without that you end up with people either not creating those characters to see it looks terrible, or worse people who just don't care and put in the limited amount of work just to say that people can create black characters even if it looks terrible. Even if you come from a culture where black people aren't prevalent, it should be a matter of professional responsibility to get that part right for the sake of your audience.
Well said, I totally agree. In the end it's 100% on the team producing the title to pay due attention to the quality of the in-universe representation and as it stands today the tech, while providing tools that make a more desireable outcome more easily achievable, only goes so far if the people in charge don't care.
 

Devil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,668
I personally thought the Demon's Souls remake got it very well. I actually liked the look of the randomly created (black) character a lot that the game threw at me when starting a new game and just went with it. Didn't change a thing! Never did that before in a game without default character looks.

Edit:
Ah, it was already mentioned. Good to hear my impression was right.

What does graphical fidelity have to do with it?

I'm not a grafics guy but I could imagine that it takes a little more effort to get good looking dark skin tones right in any lighting situation. This has been a topic in film too, where some productions just didn't get the lighting right cause darker skin "absorbs" (lacking a better word right now) light differently than light skin. Not just a lack of technology but a lack of knowledge (and probably interest and care).

Just a guess though. Even if this takes more effort they should definitely just do it. Not an excuse I'm making for devs.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,323
I somewhat recall FF15's character creator being pretty good with skin tones in the multiplayer portion but it's been awhile so I can't say for sure.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,252
I want to be clear here. I agree that we need to do better. I just think in the example of ffxiv the problem could not even begin to be solved without addressing the fundamental limitation of a 10 year old MMO character creator which was limited and below industry standard even when it first released
You're too focused on the hex editor in puppet form when there's clear and obvious ways around the limitations of a real-time color wheel: separate textures. They could've had accurate tones in spite of their limitations and still chose not to.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
'm not a grafics guy but I could imagine that it takes a little more effort to get good looking dark skin tones right in any lighting situation.
Yeah, you have different materials for different skin tones. You don't necessarily need one for each tone, and that's even more infeasible if it's an analog slider, but you can have thresholds and that's how your handle uniform lighting still looking good. I guarantee if the default skin tone was dark we wouldn't be having this conversation because no one would be able to use "tech limitations" as a reason
 
Jul 20, 2020
1,314
Nioh 2 has an incredible character creator for black characters. Very good options for skin color and features.

It even solves the hair problem(japanese games rarely have appropriate black hair options) by having a curliness slider for every hair style available
One of the best, the hairs can use some work tho.
 
Jul 20, 2020
1,314
We need to work on the hairs too. A million and a half non black texture, then we get fro, mini fro, bad locs, and cornrows. Like sheesh.
 

Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,711
I think they should make a bigger effort to include facial features and the like, instead of just making it an obvious "white person with dark skin".
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Chances are they just didn't bother to actual test that darker complexions look right under different conditions. They adjusted everything for white/tan because the characters the devs created and the vast majority of NPCs only range from white to tan. So I don't think tech is a limiting factor.

Not saying this is the case but if it is it wouldn't be surprising. The film industry had The same problem for decades.