So Everything that Luke,Han and Leia did on EP.6 is Pointless ? (Big Spoiler)

[Brinbe]

Seriously. Why do people keep bringing up the 25 years of peace thing when no one is arguing that? Yes, we know the Avengers will fight on after End Game too.

People are arguing that it was all executed poorly and putting a few words up on the crawl isn't suffice enough to explain why things ended up the way they did post ROTJ. Not if you don't want to take a dump all over past legacy.
You go from achieving victory in Ep6

to

And you're left with, what? And you now realize it was possibly all just Palp anyway? Blech

 

[TheFuzz]

Just because you beat the big bad, doesn't mean they're gone for good.

Like the Nazis lost in WWII, and they're back.

Click to shrink...

Nope.

Nope.

Nope. Not how this works.

 

[Deleted member 5666]

Nope.

Nope.

Nope. Not how this works.

Click to shrink...

Except that is exactly how reality works. You don't win a war and then magically never have a problem with them ever again.

Wars against the same enemy more than once is extremely common throughout history.

 

[Jmdajr]

Obama was pointless now that Trump is wrecking everything?

Life is a never ending battle of highs and lows.

 

[Deleted member 5666]

Using some people's logic here we should not be able to recognize the accomplishments and heroics of WWI heroes because WWII followed shortly.

 

[Deleted member 9714]

Luke - Build The New Jedi Order then get destroy again by his nephew.
Han - Have a family but ruined by his son who the join dark side.
Leia - Restore The Republic the get destroy again by Empire 2.0

Where the Vong when we need them ?

Click to shrink...

It sucks, but yeah. Sometimes it feels like the only reason they made a new trilogy was just to hurt fans of the OT.

 

[sphagnum]

z
Do we actually know how many years of 'peace' the Galaxy has known post-RotJ? Because for The First Order to make sense they would've started their conquest pretty damn fast. In TFA and TLJ it's been 30 years since the fall of the Empire and The First Order already has a massive planet-sized superweapon, a Star Destroyer more than twice the size of the Super Star Destroyer and an army of fully grown up Stormtroopers who were captured and brainwashed as children.

Everything points to those 'decades of peace' being more like 'maybe four or five years of peace'.

Click to shrink...

The First Order spent 25 years hidden in the Unknown Regions where the New Republic was not aware of its existence. After it emerged, there was a 5 year cold war before TFA.

 

[Keuja]

Yes. Shitty writing. You don't feel any story continuity whatsoever even with the characters which are played by the same actors, it is completely disjointed.

 

[Shiny Pokemon Hunter]

It's just a bad story in general

 

[Deleted member 5666]

It sucks, but yeah. Sometimes it feels like the only reason they made a new trilogy was just to hurt fans of the OT.

Click to shrink...

The only OT "fans" hurt by the sequels are those who don't know how to follow movie plots that aren't spelled out for them blatantly and misread the entire message of the new trilogy.

At this point it isn't even worth paying attention to them as they have their head so far buried in the sand

 

[Deleted member 21339]

It's a fucking story guys of course it's been deemed worthless. Lord of the Rings has a satisfying conclusion. Star Wars had a satisfying conclusion - not anymore.

Hey guys did you know 30 years after Gandalf tried to murder a boy. Did you know that Sauron AND Saruman came back, except this time there towers where 1000 times as big. Did you know that Aragorn did fuck all as ruler. Did you know that Sauron had another ring? Now some new hobbits must go an adventure and destroyed it once and for all!

Click to shrink...

If it makes you feel any better, Lucas (the author of Star Wars) was planning on making a new trilogy before the Disney buyout and his outline for episode 7 included Luke in self-imposed exile on a remote planet. It would be fair to assume the reason for this might have involved failing to restore the Jedi Order. JJ and KK have said they consulted Lucas for episode 9 so his sequel trilogy probably did involve Palpatine in some fashion, too.

 

[Deleted member 5666]

Here is a good easy way to know if someone has zero ability to understand and follow a plot of a film beyond a 3 year olds comprehension level:

If they call Ben in the TLJ flashbacks a kid/child/etc (he was in his mid 20s in the scene!)

Or if they claim Luke tried to kill him (Kylo's flashback was the fake one, we saw the real one in which Luke by no means tries to kill him later on).

 

[Force_XXI]

They destroyed the Death Star so..... they save billions of lives

 

[BossAttack]

It's a fucking story guys of course it's been deemed worthless. Lord of the Rings has a satisfying conclusion. Star Wars had a satisfying conclusion - not anymore.

Hey guys did you know 30 years after Gandalf tried to murder a boy. Did you know that Sauron AND Saruman came back, except this time there towers where 1000 times as big. Did you know that Aragorn did fuck all as ruler. Did you know that Sauron had another ring? Now some new hobbits must go an adventure and destroyed it once and for all!

Click to shrink...

Pretty much.

I'm tired of the lazy argument that, "nothing lasts forever and pay attention to history." First, Star Wars isn't real life. If Rey, Finn, and Poe were all vaporized by a random passing photon torpedo on the battlefield I doubt you'd just shrug and go, "welp, that shit happens in real life. Good guys and heroes don't always win or survive in war." So, that argument is without merit.

The second lazy argument is that the series is called STAR WARS thus conflict and war is inevitable. Again, this is a poor argument that creates a strawman for an easy rebuttal. No one is saying that SW films should be without conflict, they're saying that a new conflict so soon after our OT heroes last victory, a conflict that completely negates their victory, is poor taste.

There could have still been a new conflict without completely destroying the New Republic, creating the Empire 2.0, and completely destroying the Jedi Order, again. This isn't just some new conflict, it's the exact same conflict our heroes won. It tells us that they all utterly failed. And, they couldn't even get a decade of peace. Remember, the war didn't end with ROTJ. Five years after that they were still pushing the Empire back. Then when they finally won and the New Republic came about, they got a few years of peace before TFO showed up. So, the "peace" was beyond fleeting.

It's understandable that people are upset that there heroes failed so completely so soon after their victory. As another pointed out, it's like Sauron's brother coming back and fucking up Middle Earth a few years after ROTK. It's nonsense.

 

[Bengraven]

The only way people would have been happy is if Ep7 took place after all the mains died happily in their sleep in their early 100s.

 

[PoppaBK]

Luke - Build The New Jedi Order then get destroy again by his nephew.
Han - Have a family but ruined by his son who the join dark side.
Leia - Restore The Republic the get destroy again by Empire 2.0

Where the Vong when we need them ?

Click to shrink...

I mean all three of those things are directly linked. Luke's failure was the catalyst.

 

[Burrman]

Decades of peace isn't pointless. But nothing lasts.

Click to shrink...

This. Look at real life. Violence and power are apart of humanity and always will be.

 

[Digital Dinosaur]

It feels unsatisfying because everything the heroes accomplished happened off-screen between movies. Then it was all torn down in five seconds and we were back to the rebels vs empire status quo.

 

[Mockerre]

This is stupid. Struggling against evil and doing the right thing in the face of annihilation is never "for nothing." What should Luke, Han, and Leia have done instead? Stay on Tatooine? Not gotten involved? Died in a Death Star prison cell? The things we do that represent our greatest goals or our greatest good may not last a year, let alone twenty, but that's not a reason to not do them. Stories are not rendered invalid if their outcomes are proven impermanent. The very idea is absurd and betrays a frightening lack of understanding of narrative.

Click to shrink...

There are stories about happy endings and there are depressing stories about futility. The OT was the former, the ST made it the latter. What is there not to get?

Did anyone with a brain in their head who watched the end of Return of the Jedi really think Han and Leia would last? Did anyone think Luke was really equipped to restart the Jedi order with a couple months of training and two traumatic experiences with the Dark Side under his belt? Of course not, we know the characters too well by then to believe that if we think about it, but we hold on to that last shot, however unrealistic it may be. There's always more story, the key to a happy ending is knowing where to stop telling the story, as RotJ did. But if you want to continue the story later you inevitably run into the truism that there are no happy endings, because nothing ends.

Click to shrink...

This is on point and I said something in a similar vein. Lucas new when to end the story. Disney didn't. If they wanted to tell a depressing story, they should have populated it with their own characters. Lucas told a depressing story about the fall of a Republic and his main character, but he had the good sense to not mess with RotJ ending. The stories of those characters were complete, there was no reason to drag them out and shoot them in the back in a dark alley just to have their passing the torch moment. They could have acknowledged their legacy and growth by showing that they have won their happiness, or they should have skipped a generation and made them a part of history. The ST is neither here nor there, a product of corporate greed with no thought put into it other than how to maximize profits.

 

[Sub Boss]

Wait, Palpatine is gonna appear

t

The president of the united states literally said there are fine people on both sides when asked to denounce white supremacy and nazism.....part of the backlash across several completely different mediums be it film, video games, comics, etc. is due to an active push against progressivism accomplished through the radicalization of young impressionable caucasian males as well as jaded older caucasian males.. Fascism isn't just spreading in the U.S. but Europe as well. So yea I'd say there's several issues.

Click to shrink...

Yes but you can't possibly compare that to' Nazis back as powerful as ever' there has been pushing back on progressive ideals, but because we have all the information accesible on media its more easily to watch were discrimination happens than previous decades, when it was worse

 

[Deleted member 21339]

This is on point and I said something in a similar vein. Lucas new when to end the story. Disney didn't. If they wanted to tell a depressing story, they should have populated it with their own characters. Lucas told a depressing story about the fall of a Republic and his main character, but he had the good sense to not mess with RotJ ending. The stories of those characters were complete, there was no reason to drag them out and shoot them in the back in a dark alley just to have their passing the torch moment.

Click to shrink...

Like I said above, Lucasfilm was in pre-production on episodes 7-9 before the buyout, which would have included the OT3, an exiled Luke and potentially Palpatine. Do you not not think Lucas's trilogy would have had the old heroes failing in some way?

https://mashable.com/2013/10/07/george-jett-lucas-abrams-star-wars-episode-vii/

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-episode-7-8-9-story-george-lucas/

According to his 20-year old son, Jett Lucas, the creator of Star Wars spent more time planning, designing and structuring the third movie trilogy (and more?) than you might've thought.

Click to shrink...

 

[Deleted member 5666]

Lucas new when to end the story. Disney didn't

Click to shrink...

You do realize Lucas is the one who greenlit the sequel trilogy, not Disney right? George Lucas had hired Michael Ardnt to write the Episode VII script prior to even beginning talks with Disney to sell Lucasfilm. Preproduction work had begun on Episode 7 before the sale. They had already approached Ford, Hamill, and Fisher to return before the sale. They were even considering JJ Abrams to direct before the sale.

It was Lucas's idea prior to the sale to kickstart the sequel trilogy.

 

[S I C K O]

Yeah the new films kinda suck for nostalgia reasons. That's why they need a new story with new characters.

 

[Deleted member 5666]

I feel like a lot of people have their timelines confused. Before George Lucas even begun the earliest discussions with Disney about selling he had already hired Kathy Kennedy to take over Lucasfilm. He had already hired people to begin working on the sequel trilogy including the screenplay and conceptual artists. JJ was already being considered to be involved. And casting discussions had already begun.

All before George first started talking to Disney about selling.

Hell I bet people don't even realize George Lucas himself is the one who greenlit Solo and hired Kasdan to write it.

 

[Sephzilla]

From my point of view the sequel trilogy tries its hardest to ignore that Return of the Jedi even happened, for the most part. Or at least the people behind the sequel trilogy really wish Lucas went with his original ROTJ ending instead of the actual one.

 

[Tomasoares]

Decades of peace isn't pointless. But nothing lasts.

Click to shrink...

This, and the challenges faced in the ST aren't the same as the ones in the OT.

 

[Gunny T Highway]

Was what they did pointless? No. Should episodes 7-9 have been placed way further past episode 6 in order for their achieved peace to have lasted longer? Yes.

 

[Deleted member 21339]

I feel like a lot of people have their timelines confused. Before George Lucas even begun the earliest discussions with Disney about selling he had already hired Kathy Kennedy to take over Lucasfilm. He had already hired people to begin working on the sequel trilogy including the screenplay and conceptual artists. JJ was already being considered to be involved. And casting discussions had already begun.

All before George first started talking to Disney about selling.

Hell I bet people don't even realize George Lucas himself is the one who greenlit Solo and hired Kasdan to write it.

Click to shrink...

The funny thing is, "passing the torch to a new generation" is literally a Lucas premise for the ST and that's exactly what the new movies are all about. Did people listen to Luke's voiceover in the TROS trailer? Ha

 

[Ryan.]

The funny thing is, "passing the torch to a new generation" is literally a Lucas premise for the ST and that's exactly what the new movies are all about. Did people listen to Luke's voiceover in the TROS trailer? Ha

Click to shrink...

You remember the website we're posting on, right?

 

[CloudWolf]

Just because you beat the big bad, doesn't mean they're gone for good.

Like the Nazis lost in WWII, and they're back.

Click to shrink...

The Nazis aren't back, if you think what's happening now is anywhere close to what was happening with the Nazi Party pre-WW2 you have a serious misunderstanding of what the Nazis were and what they did.

 

[Yukari]

There could have still been a new conflict without completely destroying the New Republic, creating the Empire 2.0, and completely destroying the Jedi Order, again. This isn't just some new conflict, it's the exact same conflict our heroes won. It tells us that they all utterly failed. And, they couldn't even get a decade of peace. Remember, the war didn't end with ROTJ. Five years after that they were still pushing the Empire back. Then when they finally won and the New Republic came about, they got a few years of peace before TFO showed up. So, the "peace" was beyond fleeting.

Click to shrink...

This. I understand that "peace" would not be forever but a least make new threat.
Empire/First Order could still be there but not a threat and maybe help new republic fight a new bad guy.

 

[Meows]

The only thing that truly bothers me when it comes to this is the entire Republic being destroyed, trillions of people dead. It should have just been the capital planet and one or two other ones, not all of the systems, it does kinda cut into their legacy (and the other two trilogies) a little bit. Especially when it concerns Leia. I don't think Luke or Han's fates are that far-fetched or too far away from who they are though.

 

[RumbleHumble]

I didn't realize Luke didn't convert Darth Vader and killed Emperor Palpatine at the end of Episode 6. Who knew?

Also didn't realize Leia and Han didn't lead a fight at Endor resulting in the destruction of a super weapon that would've ensured the Empire controlled the galaxy long after Episode 6.

Shit is crazy in Star Wars threads here.

 

[lunarworks]

In regards to Han's character arc, which has been brought up, let's see.

- Rebellious guy who can't be tied down.
- Meets a girl during a wild time in his life.
- Gets married, to the astonishment of his friends, and has a kid or two.
- After some years feels suffocated and slowly returns to his old ways.
- Gets divorced and moves in with his best old bud, who is equally problematic.
- Sees his kids every other weekend, and then only occasionally.

Yup. That's like no one I've ever met.

No one.

 

[Kito]

Okay, I'm not the biggest Star Wars fanatic, but isn't it the case that nothing in that Galaxy Far, Far Away is pointless? Doesn't The Force essentially have a preordained system of checks and balances in that every action on the light side had a proportionate influence on the dark side to balance it out? That basically means that no action is wasted, whether good or bad for either side, no?

 

[CloudWolf]

Using some people's logic here we should not be able to recognize the accomplishments and heroics of WWI heroes because WWII followed shortly.

Click to shrink...

You do know why WW2 happened, right? The rise of Hitler was directly tied to the fact that the Allied forces deliberately ruined Germany in their peace deal. It's not like WW1 ended, everything was fine and suddenly "whoops, we have another World War". One war was a direct result of the other.

I'd say that the accomplishments and heroics of World War 1 "heroes" are plenty debatable. Either side was kinda shit.

 

[chezzymann]

Yes. Its a repetitive and boring story that's cyclical now.The sequel trilogies direction wasn't inspired at all.

 

[Acquiescence]

For the sake of my own childhood memories, I'm done with Stars Wars now. The Last Jedi and particularly its treatment of Luke's character was the last straw, now I'm just trying my best to erase the prequels and glorified fan-fiction sequels from my mind completely and accept nothing but the original trilogy. Same with The Terminator franchise (it all ended with 2). And Indiana Jones (Kingdom of the Crystal Skull totally never happened, the last I saw of Indy was when he rode into the sunset at the end of The Last Crusade). And Die Hard. And Mary Poppins. And Alien/Aliens.

Spoiler

dear lord almighty, please don't let Bill & Ted 3 suck ass and shit on the legacy of the wyld stallyns

 

[Deleted member 9714]

The only OT "fans" hurt by the sequels are those who don't know how to follow movie plots that aren't spelled out for them blatantly and misread the entire message of the new trilogy.

At this point it isn't even worth paying attention to them as they have their head so far buried in the sand

Click to shrink...

Thanks for the laugh.

 

[sir_crocodile]

To be fair, he does find a new better Star Destroyer fleet that Emperor has hidden away.

Plus a couple of dark Jedi (one being special to Luke) to help deal with Luke.

And aside from Stormtroopers had a race of alien assassins to help out as well.

Click to shrink...

They are not better star destroyers, they are significantly worse.

Zahn novels have an evil clone of Luke named Luuke. Let those novels stay in the early 90s where they belong.

Click to shrink...

They are far more enjoyable to read then TLJ is to watch.

So no.

 

[Daingurse]

Yeah, all their accomplishments were wiped clean. Honestly thought that shit was pretty real. Peace just doesn't last in Star Wars lol.

 

[Bulby]

Im hoping this is what JJ is alluding too when he said giving an ending to 3 trilogies worth of movies. Obviously the job was not finished in episode 6, stupid I know but what can you do.

There will be some over arching darkness that they need to deal with. Obviously hinted at, at the moment by The Emporers laugh. But I think it wont be as on the nose as that.

 

[chezzymann]

Im hoping this is what JJ is alluding too when he said giving an ending to 3 trilogies worth of movies. Obviously the job was not finished in episode 6, stupid I know but what can you do.

There will be some over arching darkness that they need to deal with. Obviously hinted at, at the moment by The Emporers laugh. But I think it wont be as on the nose as that.

Click to shrink...

But there was no buildup so no matter how amazing the movie is it wont feel right in the grand scheme of thigs. Just goes to show how badly planned thing were.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

They are not better star destroyers, they are significantly worse.



They are far more enjoyable to read then TLJ is to watch.

So no.

Click to shrink...

It's been a long time since I read them so I may be off on a detail or 2.

 

[BasilZero]

Decades of peace isn't pointless. But nothing lasts.

Click to shrink...

This

 

[BocoDragon]

You know... before the special editions' new ending in 1997, I don't think anyone really interpreted the end of ROTJ as the end of the Empire or the end of the war.

The original EU books that continued on from ROTJ starting in 1991 didn't think they were invalidating the end of ROTJ to say that Imperial remnants continued fighting the rebels for years to come. It made sense. Luke's win was to turn back Vader and kill the Emperor/Death Star... not to defeat the Empire or the dark side for all time. That's how it seemed at the time.

But that special edition ending with all the worlds celebrating, and toppling statues of the Emperor, seemed to recontextualize ROTJ as "Luke defeated the evil for good". And it was shocking because it really didn't fit with what the EU books of the time we're doing after ROTJ. And now the new sequel trilogy kinda retconned that lasting peace for the sake of continuing the drama again. But that "lasting peace" Luke earned was itself a retcon from 20 years after the original movies came out!

 

[Plum]

Click to shrink...

Yo what the hell

The last time I used evidence outside of the film's script (from Star Wars itself, even, not irl like the person you replied to) you said:

This isn't how film criticism works.

Click to shrink...

What is it, then? Can we use that sort of thing or not?

 

[Bulby]

But there was no buildup so no matter how amazing the movie is it wont feel right in the grand scheme of thigs. Just goes to show how badly planned thing were.

Click to shrink...

Thats what I mean by, stupid but what can you do.

They made this mess. They have to finish it somehow.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

Well they went the route of making it mysterious so much so that the world building was crap. Original trilogy was the same way, only difference is, Lucas didn't have the knowledge out there yet for audiences yet.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

The "This is how things really happen" excuse blows my mind.

Reminds me of the Dragonlance character Tanis, who was the leader of the band of heroes of many many books who saved the world. And how does he go out? Stabbed in the back by a random soldier on a battlefield.

I recall a chat with the author and he was asked "WTF with the lame death of Tanis"? His answer: It was an homage to real soldiers on real battlefields, who could be standing next to one second then dead the next.

I don't need reality in my fantasy worlds. I use these to escape reality. I want my heroes to continue to be heroic. Reality is harsh enough.