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rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
But I think the problem is that having them not around completely takes away from the final choice of Trespasser.

Like...

"I want to stop you! But I'm going to send other people to do it and never confront you myself."

Just seems off.
Did you miss the bit were
Inquisitor stabs the map and says they need to find people that Solas doesn't know? They outright say those words
Also, it's a book spoiler so I won't go into detail but there's things that happen in the last story of Tevinter Nights which is a good example of why having the Inquisitor directly doing it isn't a good idea.
See I get that but at the same time the way Hawke was handled in DAI was awful and I don't want them to do that to my inquisitor.
That's why I'd prefer the Inquisitor to not directly feature and have another character like Dorian or Charter as the Inquisition representative.
 

Almeister

Member
Oct 25, 2017
962
I... kinda want to play my Inquisitor again to be honest. I feel like she has a special link and an incredible advantage to stop Solas, if there's one person in whole Thedas who knows him best and could help in that matter the most, it's her. He has true deep feelings for her, that much is true, and that can be an important tool in stopping him. I have a beef, I'm on a mission, and I need closure, whichever it is. Either save Solas from himself and save the world from his stupid crushing guilt, teach him to forgive himself and move on, or kill him if there's no other way, but... yeah, in my mind, my Inquisitor is absolutely not done at all, it's just the start.

I agree, give them a class-specific replacement arm and away we go. New players can have the character lose the arm to Solas in another way as part of the intro.

Edit: I've bought Tevinter Nights to read, so having read the above discussion it will be interesting to see what happens in it.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
Hawke suddenly being ardently anti-blood magic (even if they are a blood mage and are dating Merrill) is kind of wtf. Also I always sacrifice Hawke lmao

See that's the difference, my Hawke was never a mage. He's a warrior.

DA2 sucks playing as a mage because Hawke comes off as someone not in full possession of his mental faculties. Yes, please explain to me, a mage, what The Fade is. I haven't just been entering The Fade every night as I sleep since I was born.
 

Yeul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
203
I... kinda want to play my Inquisitor again to be honest. I feel like she has a special link and an incredible advantage to stop Solas, if there's one person in whole Thedas who knows him best and could help in that matter the most, it's her. He has true deep feelings for her, that much is true, and that can be an important tool in stopping him. I have a beef, I'm on a mission, and I need closure, whichever it is. Either save Solas from himself and save the world from his stupid crushing guilt, teach him to forgive himself and move on, or kill him if there's no other way, but... yeah, in my mind, my Inquisitor is absolutely not done at all, it's just the start.

Totally my feelings as someone who also romanced Solas. Though honestly my most likely hope is for a dual protagonist scenario because oh boy when Trespasser ended and
all my girls were in Haven again saying they would "save our friend, if we can" I was so hyped like the girl power ugh I loved it. I'm not even concerned about the arm bit because even Iron Bull had prosthesis in concept art and it was considered, but ultimately they chose to not go in that direction.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Guys, you know that Solas can find you in your dreams and kill you, right? That's how he killed Fellasan? You don't want him to directly know the person coming against him.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
As much as one romance option can, Lavellan x Solas really feels like the canon route.

Being an elven mage romancing Solas affords the player deeper understanding of and interaction with so many layers of the game -- not just surrounding Solas, either; half the areas in the game are deeply tailored to elves.
Are mages fun to play as in Inquisition? I was kind of feeling like going DW Rogue, just to compare it to my recent 176 hours replay of Origins using that, hahaha.

If it serves as consolation this is the best Cullen we ever had, his crime is just bring too vanilla and boring compared to the other more outlandish options. And he indeed looks good
I do enjoy the idea of a super bland character from the point of view we have in other games being this more fleshed out romance option in this one, it's an interesting move, narratively.

The game never comes outright and says it, but I would say do the quests that start in Skyhold (this includes companion missions) and you can skip pretty much all of them that start in the zones themselves. I say pretty much because it's usually worth doing the "main" quest that defines each zone (which is usually obvious) as some of them are really good like the one in Crestwood. But even that one has zilch production values. There's very little to no "shot-reverse-shot" style camera in any of the open world quests, much less cutscenes.

I would also recommend anyone keep up with the War Table quests. Not only do they consistently have better writing than the open world side quests, they have good rewards and one of them unlocks an NPC in Skyhold that lets you buy Power for coin, further reducing the bloat and Power grinding.
This is actually a positive to me. I can't stand shot-reverse-shot sidequests anymore, getting me to care about the fetching I'm about to do. I respect the game just saying "get me this" in the gameplay camera, and then I decide if I feel like doing it. Guess I can just go around accepting quests and do what I feel like doing.
 

Delphine

Fen'Harel Enansal
Administrator
Mar 30, 2018
3,658
France
Guys, you know that Solas can find you in your dreams and kill you, right? That's how he killed Fellasan? You don't want him to directly know the person coming against him.


Yes, I know. It's even said so in the final scrolling ending pictures:

"Lavellan sometimes came awake from dreams in which her lover watched her sadly from across an endless distance. If they were more than simple dreams, she could not say, for every time she reached for him, he vanished into nothing. Still she searched, and dreamed, and waited, for a way to change the Dread Wolf's heart."


Solas will probably never kill Lavellan though. If he wanted to, he'd have done so ages ago, he had way too many occasions to do it. He loves and cares too much for that, very definitely.

Although, my Lavellan drank from the well, so hm, yeah that might make things even trickier lol. Woopsie!
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
Are mages fun to play as in Inquisition? I was kind of feeling like going DW Rogue, just to compare it to my recent 176 hours replay of Origins using that, hahaha.

Personal taste and all that but I found dual-wield Tempest rogue to be the most fun of all my playthroughs, by far. I think Rogue has the best specializations that lead to the most fun gameplay. For mages, Rift mage is fun for CC, but Knight Enchanter is super braindead (basically the Arcane Warrior of DAI) and Necromancer just doesn't work as well as it should.
 

Delphine

Fen'Harel Enansal
Administrator
Mar 30, 2018
3,658
France
Personal taste and all that but I found dual-wield Tempest rogue to be the most fun of all my playthroughs, by far. I think Rogue has the best specializations that lead to the most fun gameplay. For mages, Rift mage is fun for CC, but Knight Enchanter is super braindead (basically the Arcane Warrior of DAI) and Necromancer just doesn't work as well as it should.


You quoted the wrong person :D
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Yes, I know. It's even said so in the final scrolling ending pictures:

"Lavellan sometimes came awake from dreams in which her lover watched her sadly from across an endless distance. If they were more than simple dreams, she could not say, for every time she reached for him, he vanished into nothing. Still she searched, and dreamed, and waited, for a way to change the Dread Wolf's heart."


Solas will probably never kill Lavellan though. If he wanted to, he'd have done so ages ago, he had way too many occasions to do it. He loves and cares too much for that, very definitely.

Although, my Lavellan drank from the well, so hm, yeah that might make things even trickier lol. Woopsie!
Knowing Solas he probably has some ability to freeze her or something lol 😂 In saying that, I generally am not sure what Solas would do if Lavellan got directly in his plans way? His whole personality is built around him sacrificing everything to rebuild the world even if it hurts or destroys him and I in DAI he doesn't come across as the person that would kill Fellasan over something as little as not giving him the Eluvian codes (something he was able to get for himself not that much later) and yet he did do that. So far we have only really seen Solas lighter side as we haven't yet been in direct opposition to his plans, in fact we did what he wanted, I don't know what he'd be like when you are against him.
 

misho8723

Member
Jan 7, 2018
3,712
Slovakia
Tried the main game like 5 times already, never really caught me like Origins and after some hours I always dropped the game.. and after playing Witcher 3, it's even harder for me to go back to the game
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
You quoted the wrong person :D

Ack, sorry. Still not used to how Reset saves post drafts and all that...

You know, can I just say it's nice to see a (generally) positive DAI thread for once? :)

While DAI's vanilla ending and Corypheus development get rightfully dissed, I say it still has the best overall main story of the three games, primarily because it dares to actually do interesting things with its lore. DAO was great for establishing the world, but it does very little with what it establishes, especially regarding the Blight. DAI felt like it was constantly rewarding me for caring about its world with all the plot subversions and revelations, and I still think it has a very mature view of the function of organized religion and belief.

Of course, the best plot stretch of any base DA game is Act 2 of Dragon Age 2.
 

Delphine

Fen'Harel Enansal
Administrator
Mar 30, 2018
3,658
France
Knowing Solas he probably has some ability to freeze her or something lol 😂 In saying that, I generally am not sure what Solas would do if Lavellan got directly in his plans way? His whole personality is built around him sacrificing everything to rebuild the world even if it hurts or destroys him and I in DAI he doesn't come across as the person that would kill Fellasan over something as little as not giving him the Eluvian codes (something he was able to get for himself not that much later) and yet he did do that. So far we have only really seen Solas lighter side as we haven't yet been in direct opposition to his plans, in fact we did what he wanted, I don't know what he'd be like when you are against him.


That's very much true and holy fuck, that gets me even more excited for DA4 ahah. The possibilities are amazing and it's such a rich narrative base for such an amazing game, wew.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
That's very much true and holy fuck, that gets me even more excited for DA4 ahah. The possibilities are amazing and it's such a rich narrative base for such an amazing game, wew.
It's so good because I'm so excited and there's so many different ways they could take the story. Wait til you read the Tevinter Nights book, the last story is really going to get you.
 
Don't try to save me, I'm too far gone, I'm a lost cause here.

nLCVk64.gif



PS: Beards do nothing for me, I actually don't like them.




I always forgive Blackwall and let him stay in the Inquisition, he's a good man despite his mistakes.
You've turned my favorite moment of a movie and gif into something more majestic than I thought possible. Kudos.

Thinking about buying DA:I on steam just to play all the dlc. Never played them and I was obsessed with this game when it first came out.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,366
i feel so left out in dai lore discussions. only companion i cared lugging around was dorian. the rest i just had for usefulness. and i dont think i ever added ghost boy to the party
 

Delphine

Fen'Harel Enansal
Administrator
Mar 30, 2018
3,658
France
It's so good because I'm so excited and there's so many different ways they could take the story. Wait til you read the Tevinter Nights book, the last story is really going to get you.


Ok I need to get on it ASAP wew! Just ordered the book now :D

You've turned my favorite moment of a movie and gif into something more majestic than I thought possible. Kudos.


Not my creation though, it was from the Solas thread in the late Bioware forum. They were very creative in that regard, and I still have a bunch of them saved on my PC for good measure, you never know when you're gonna need them and make fun of this racist grandpa in order to forget that he preferred to break your heart in thousand pieces in order to... *checks notes*... commit genocide. Fucking hell.

5fYMjQx.gif



i feel so left out in dai lore discussions. only companion i cared lugging around was dorian. the rest i just had for usefulness. and i dont think i ever added ghost boy to the party


Oh my god, not like this, not you doing my precious baby boy Cole dirty like that, noooo. He's such a wholesome unproblematic cinnamon roll, I love him so much, having him by my side also provided so much insight into Solas. I'll fight for Cole, I have to protecc best boy from the world.
 
Last edited:

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,366
Ok I need to get on it ASAP wew! Just ordered the book now :D




Not my creation though, it was from the Solas thread in the Bioware forum. They were very creative in that regard, and I still have a bunch of them saved on my PC for good measure, you never know when you're gonna need them and make fun of this racist grandpa in order to forget that he preferred to break your heart in thousand pieces in order to... *checks notes*... commit genocide. Fucking hell.

5fYMjQx.gif






Oh my god, not like this, not you doing my precious baby boy Cole dirty like that, noooo. He's such a wholesome unproblematic cinnamon roll, I love him so much, having him by my side also provided so much insight into Solas. I'll fight for Cole, I have to protecc best boy from the world.

His fault for filling the same role as me shrug. Be a magick ghost in the next afterlife
 

Illusion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
Wait till you get to Trespasser.
DAI is an underrated game and the dlc is pretty good but trespasser is on a whole level
How is it underrated? It won game of the year did it not and other huge awards...

Never played the DLC. I did play through the story twice on two different accounts though. I had my fill of that game. I have no interest playing the DLC, just give me a sequel.
 

Yeul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
203
Hot Take: The lore in Dragon Age didn't truly get interesting until Inquisition.

In some ways, this is true for sure. I know for myself, Inquisition truly locked in for me the forethought that the developers had when coming up with story aspects. They plan a number of games ahead with regards to the story and it shows. Dragon Age is "unreliable narrators": the series. Going back to play Origins, for example, and walking into a Dalish camp knowing what you know in Inquisition makes this apparent and very interesting. I also think that Inquisition is the point where the series truly found its visual identity. I have the World of Thedas vol. 1 and 2, along with the art book and I highly recommend those since it really shows how far the series has come and is just eye candy for anyone interested in good art. Obviously not required, since I know a lot of people don't like to get into ancillary media, but for those interested and want more they are definitely worth the purchase.
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
Trespasser is pretty exceptional though as someone earlier said, it never should have been a DLC. I'm not a fan of Bioware putting important details of the main story behind DLC. I've never actually played Descent but I've watched a playthrough and the revelations that you make in the lore are pretty exceptional.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,366
How is it underrated? It won game of the year did it not and other huge awards
And everyone raved and roared about how undeserving it was and how it was the worst goty ever yadda yadda. The critical reception and the user reception was quite split for a good while
 

gilko79

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,210
Ivalice
DA:I is one of those game that I came to appreciate more the second time around, and a big part of that is due to the DLC. Trespasser is essential if you care about the future of this series.
 

AWizardDidIt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,461
I'm so happy to see positive DAI and lore discussion on resetera I'm going to cry

I think I like Descent more than a lot of people here. The number of subtle lore bombs that dlc drops makes me feel like an archaeologist digging not only deeper into the earth below Thedas, but also into the deeper lore of the series. It's compact and combat heavy, but I think it's really reminiscent of the Deep Roads section from Origins, a part of that game many don't like but which is probably my favorite section of the game.

It's pretty masterful how Bioware created a setting as dense as Dragon Age's. There's actually a sense of history to the world which is something a lot of fantasy settings lack. And the writers aren't afraid to simply not give players a definitive answer to a lot of the lingering metaphysical questions about the world or things like where exactly the Qunari came from or what the Old Gods even really are, but seeds a lot of interesting seeds of lore that really let your imagination run wild.

Anyways, Descent really cracks open some of those nuts and gives the juicy lore bombs that I have been waiting for since Origins. I love it.

But like, yeah Trespasser is still obviously god tier dlc. It's amazing how like 5 years after it came out I'm still just salivating over the implications of it going into DA4.

Sera as a Qunari Inquisitor = best romance
 

ShiftyCow

Member
Nov 4, 2017
470
He comes around! Cullen is the most compassionate dude out there.
Does he come around, though? Cullen in DA:I honestly reminds me of how Daenerys was handled towards the end of Game of Thrones. A character is presented in a different light and the audience is supposed to just accept it, but there's no real character development. Cullen is an extremist in DA2, right up until the end where Meredith wants to execute every mage in Kirkwall for a crime they didn't commit and he goes along with it. Then in Inquisition suddenly he's a Good Boi™ and you're supposed to love him, but he never actually works to atone for his crimes, gets punished in any way, or even seems to have changed his views that much. In fact, he lowkey defends Meredith, saying that "her methods were harsh, but they kept people safe".
I get that canonically he's supposed to be a changed man but it's just really badly written.
Basically:
a8d9de2f4db58b7187095701472fd787790b1ccd.jpg

(Source)
Hawke suddenly being ardently anti-blood magic (even if they are a blood mage and are dating Merrill) is kind of wtf. Also I always sacrifice Hawke lmao
Same. Bioware has gotten this wrong twice now, with Revan and Hawke. I'm sure they'll try again with the Inquisitor because they kind of have to, and it's even possible we'll see Hawke again, I just hope they'll pull it off better this time. And they better leave the Warden alone lol.
Dragon Age is "unreliable narrators": the series.
This is one of the things I love the most about Dragon Age. The very first spoken words of the franchise are "The Chantry teaches us". Every single codex entry is an in-universe text written by characters with their own biases. There's even less objective information than in Dark Souls.
 

ClearMetal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,270
the Netherlands
This is one of the things I love the most about Dragon Age. The very first spoken words of the franchise are "The Chantry teaches us". Every single codex entry is an in-universe text written by characters with their own biases. There's even less objective information than in Dark Souls.
Hell one of the World of Thedas books begins with a preface by that famous scholar (Genitivi? Something like that) on how everyone is intrinsically biased and that goes for him as well, even though he actively strives to be objective.

I should read those books again sometime. They were really good, much better than the in-game codexes if you ask me.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
Does he come around, though? Cullen in DA:I honestly reminds me of how Daenerys was handled towards the end of Game of Thrones. A character is presented in a different light and the audience is supposed to just accept it, but there's no real character development. Cullen is an extremist in DA2, right up until the end where Meredith wants to execute every mage in Kirkwall for a crime they didn't commit and he goes along with it. Then in Inquisition suddenly he's a Good Boi™ and you're supposed to love him, but he never actually works to atone for his crimes, gets punished in any way, or even seems to have changed his views that much. In fact, he lowkey defends Meredith, saying that "her methods were harsh, but they kept people safe".
I get that canonically he's supposed to be a changed man but it's just really badly written.
Basically:
a8d9de2f4db58b7187095701472fd787790b1ccd.jpg

(Source)

Same. Bioware has gotten this wrong twice now, with Revan and Hawke. I'm sure they'll try again with the Inquisitor because they kind of have to, and it's even possible we'll see Hawke again, I just hope they'll pull it off better this time. And they better leave the Warden alone lol.

This is one of the things I love the most about Dragon Age. The very first spoken words of the franchise are "The Chantry teaches us". Every single codex entry is an in-universe text written by characters with their own biases. There's even less objective information than in Dark Souls.

Here's the problem, DA2 is written terribly such that the Templars, even at their harshest, seem justified.

It's a massive problem with DA2, every "rogue" mage is terrible and eventually turns to Blood Magic. Every quest with a mage is like, "please help me, the Circle is oppressing us, we didn't even do nothing. They're gonna kill us, help us escape."

"Okay."

*A few days later*

"Muhahahah, I'm a blood mage. Bathe in the blood of my innocent victims you weaklings!"

Even at the very end, the Circle leader turns to Blood Magic and becomes an abomination while also revealing he secretly aided the blood mage that killed your mom. Just, what the fuck?!
 

Yeul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
203
If anyone is into the DA books, I highly recommend Tevinter Nights. Particularly the story by the current Narrative Director, John Epler called "The Horror of Hormak". There are some codex entries in Trepasser that discuss a certain Evanuris, but this story specifically really exposes them for who they are. It's so good because the perception of this god-like figure in the narrative up until Inquisition is so unlike what you were led to believe. This is exactly what I'm looking for in DA4 in terms of the ~drama~ and tone, especially because there's the entire pantheon and I can't wait to see their varying degrees of...flawed personas (to put it extremely generously). I'll link it below for anyone who has read the story and/or played Trespasser:

 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
Here's the problem, DA2 is written terribly such that the Templars, even at their harshest, seem justified.

It's a massive problem with DA2, every "rogue" mage is terrible and eventually turns to Blood Magic. Every quest with a mage is like, "please help me, the Circle is oppressing us, we didn't even do nothing. They're gonna kill us, help us escape."

"Okay."

*A few days later*

"Muhahahah, I'm a blood mage. Bathe in the blood of my innocent victims you weaklings!"

Even at the very end, the Circle leader turns to Blood Magic and becomes an abomination while also revealing he secretly aided the blood mage that killed your mom. Just, what the fuck?!

In BioWare's defense (kinda?) there's a lot of in-universe reasons why nobody in Kirkwall acts within their damn minds.

  • For Meredith there's obviously the lyrium idol (which, based on DA4's marketing is probably an even bigger deal than we thought) but the reason there's a lyrium idol in Kirkwall to begin with is that there's a giant Primeval Thaig nearby dripping with red lyrium.
  • Kirkwall appears to have been constructed as a city for the purpose of performing blood magic, or at the very least central tenets of its layout were constructed with blood magic in mind, such as the sewers' architecture channeling blood down towards underground blood magic laboratories.
  • Fucking Corypheus is sealed nearby, at the very least capable of brainwashing people nearby, but also his presence just generally contributing to the madness of the place
  • Either because of all of the above or perhaps causing a lot of the above, the Veil is extremely thin in Kirkwall, leading to tons of demons trying to reach out to mages
  • Anders/Justice. Goddamnit Anders.
In my mind BioWare's mistake was not making these peripheral-yet-underlying concerns more central to the climax and resolution of the final act, instead of trying to portray Kirkwall Templars vs. Mages as a very human dilemma when it very much WAS NOT.
 

ZugZug123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,412
Trespasser is the real ending of the game and singlehandedly makes DAI a great game (from good). Still simmering after all these years. I need DA4 to exist to give me closure!
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
In BioWare's defense (kinda?) there's a lot of in-universe reasons why nobody in Kirkwall acts within their damn minds.

  • For Meredith there's obviously the lyrium idol (which, based on DA4's marketing is probably an even bigger deal than we thought) but the reason there's a lyrium idol in Kirkwall to begin with is that there's a giant Primeval Thaig nearby dripping with red lyrium.
  • Kirkwall appears to have been constructed as a city for the purpose of performing blood magic, or at the very least central tenets of its layout were constructed with blood magic in mind, such as the sewers' architecture channeling blood down towards underground blood magic laboratories.
  • Fucking Corypheus is sealed nearby, at the very least capable of brainwashing people nearby, but also his presence just generally contributing to the madness of the place
  • Either because of all of the above or perhaps causing a lot of the above, the Veil is extremely thin in Kirkwall, leading to tons of demons trying to reach out to mages
  • Anders/Justice. Goddamnit Anders.
In my mind BioWare's mistake was not making these peripheral-yet-underlying concerns more central to the climax and resolution of the final act, instead of trying to portray Kirkwall Templars vs. Mages as a very human dilemma when it very much WAS NOT.

Those are all lore justifications to smooth over the terrible writing. The whole point of the Templar v. Mage dilemma is to challenge our views about our own present society. But, if your grand thesis is that, "hey, both sides are bad," then you've already failed. DA2 is "Both Sides: The Game."
 

ClearMetal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,270
the Netherlands
Here's the problem, DA2 is written terribly such that the Templars, even at their harshest, seem justified.

It's a massive problem with DA2, every "rogue" mage is terrible and eventually turns to Blood Magic. Every quest with a mage is like, "please help me, the Circle is oppressing us, we didn't even do nothing. They're gonna kill us, help us escape."

"Okay."

*A few days later*

"Muhahahah, I'm a blood mage. Bathe in the blood of my innocent victims you weaklings!"

Even at the very end, the Circle leader turns to Blood Magic and becomes an abomination while also revealing he secretly aided the blood mage that killed your mom. Just, what the fuck?!
The underlying problem here is that DA2 refused to pick a side. Mages and Templars were always presented as equal options, and they had to show even the good mages eventually resort to blood magic to justify it.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,623
Yeah I will admit siding with the Mages in DA2 only for them to INSTANTLY turn to Blood Mage rubbed me the wrong way.

It wasn't quite a: "Rocks fall, everyone dies" sort of ending, but it felt adjacent to it. Maybe a: "Oops! Everyone is awful!"
 

ClearMetal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,270
the Netherlands
Kirkwall appears to have been constructed as a city for the purpose of performing blood magic, or at the very least central tenets of its layout were constructed with blood magic in mind, such as the sewers' architecture channeling blood down towards underground blood magic laboratories.
If I'm not mistaken, Kirkwall was one of the places (the place?) where the ancient magisters entered the fade in person. An unholy amount of blood was spilled there to make it happen and its influence lingers in Kirkwall to this day.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
In BioWare's defense (kinda?) there's a lot of in-universe reasons why nobody in Kirkwall acts within their damn minds.

  • For Meredith there's obviously the lyrium idol (which, based on DA4's marketing is probably an even bigger deal than we thought) but the reason there's a lyrium idol in Kirkwall to begin with is that there's a giant Primeval Thaig nearby dripping with red lyrium.
  • Kirkwall appears to have been constructed as a city for the purpose of performing blood magic, or at the very least central tenets of its layout were constructed with blood magic in mind, such as the sewers' architecture channeling blood down towards underground blood magic laboratories.
  • Fucking Corypheus is sealed nearby, at the very least capable of brainwashing people nearby, but also his presence just generally contributing to the madness of the place
  • Either because of all of the above or perhaps causing a lot of the above, the Veil is extremely thin in Kirkwall, leading to tons of demons trying to reach out to mages
  • Anders/Justice. Goddamnit Anders.
In my mind BioWare's mistake was not making these peripheral-yet-underlying concerns more central to the climax and resolution of the final act, instead of trying to portray Kirkwall Templars vs. Mages as a very human dilemma when it very much WAS NOT.
Also Kirkwall was a slave market city back in Ancient Tevinter, there seems to have been a lot of blood sacrifices done there that made the Veil very very thin and there's some lore theory that the ritual to get into the Black City was done there, which would explain the extremely thin veil (and that ritual involved a heck of a lot of Lyrium and tons of blood sacrifices of slaves) so it's pretty much a blood soaked city, which seems to have a large effect on the magic of the inhabitants. I do agree though that after Anders blows up the Chantry , the games narrative is mis handled in that they make the First Enchanter become a monster because they need a boss fight. The ending feels like it could have done with a few drafts to get right. Still love DA2 though
 

Ctrl Alt Del

Banned
Jun 10, 2018
4,312
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Also, I'd like to point out that playing Jaws of Hakkon as an elvhen mage having romanced Solas, gives it a whole another dimension to it entirely. The parallels between the two main characters of Jaws of Hakkon and Lavellan & Solas are glaringly obvious and all the more heartbreaking and sad. Especially if you play it right after Solas broke up with your Lavellan.

Ameridan being an elvhen mage Inquisitor, and Telana being an elvhen dreamer mage, and their love being utterly beautiful yet tragic, definitely wasn't unnoticed to anybody playing a Lavellan romancing Solas.

The fact Solas has a ton of dialogues during this DLC, and always speaks first as well, is very telling. This was clearly made on purpose.
I played DAI as a female elven rogue but didn't romance Solas and I already feel I got a lot of exclusive interactions with the character.

Kind of a shame, though, that I don't feel like playing as an elf again to do all this stuff. It really felt like the female elf was the canon Inquisitor.
 

Inyourprime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,223
Do you know any Youtubers who see dive on the lore by chance? I'm shocked there isn't a DA community.

It will be a while before she posts a new a video, but Ghil Dirthalen is really good (bonus points if you know the origins of her name). She has lore videos on Origins, Dragon Age 2, and Inquisition. As well as codex videos from Origins up to Inquisition. There are a few more youtubers I can name, but honestly I only ever pay attention to her.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
Those are all lore justifications to smooth over the terrible writing. The whole point of the Templar v. Mage dilemma is to challenge our views about our own present society. But, if your grand thesis is that, "hey, both sides are bad," then you've already failed. DA2 is "Both Sides: The Game."

I don't actually agree that the Templar/Mage dilemma is supposed to challenge views on our own society. While much of fantasy is allegory, Dragon Age's core philosophy at birth seems to have been a type of reverse allegory: instead of "what does this aspect of our society look like in a fantastical, exaggerated setting," Gaider's thought process was to take a fantastic element and try to figure out what it would look like in a "realistic" society.

The very fact that mages ARE inherently dangerous and that many of the fears of society and templars alike ARE justified makes it instantly inapplicable to virtually every societal parallel I can think of, for example. It's very different than, say, the dilemma of city elves.
 

AWizardDidIt

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Oct 28, 2017
1,461
I would argue that the whole Mage vs Templar dilemma isn't even really an 'even' choice since the overwhelming number of people I talk to about Dragon Age lean hard into supporting mages. I think the Templars present a depressingly cynical perspective and the game never goes to many lengths to show them as right, even when it's showing how dangerous mages are. Even in situations where mages are causing issues, the game seems to frame the Templars actions as an extreme and inhumane response while suggesting there is probably a better way.

I think almost all of DA2's narrative issues are in its third act where it's clear that they just ran out of time and had to ship. It makes me more willing to cut some slack as I think they would have delved into the more metaphysical reasons that Kirkwall was imploding instead of the few small references and codex entries that we ended up getting.
 
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Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
I would argue that the whole Mage vs Templar dilemma isn't even really an 'even' choice since the overwhelming number of people I talk to about Dragon Age lean hard into mages. I absolutely think the Templars present a depressingly cynical perspective and the game never goes to many lengths to show them as right, even when it's showing how dangerous mages are. Even in situations where mages are a present danger, the game seems to frame the Templars actions as an extreme response while suggesting there is probably a better way.

You need really look no further than the introduction of the mage and templar factions in DAI for that. Though it definitely gets more complicated as the story progresses, DAI introduces you to templars when they slap a nun, and mages when they beg for your help.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
I would argue that the whole Mage vs Templar dilemma isn't even really an 'even' choice since the overwhelming number of people I talk to about Dragon Age lean hard into supporting mages. I think the Templars present a depressingly cynical perspective and the game never goes to many lengths to show them as right, even when it's showing how dangerous mages are. Even in situations where mages are causing issues, the game seems to frame the Templars actions as an extreme and inhumane response while suggesting there is probably a better way.

I think almost all of DA2's narrative issues are in its third act where it's clear that they just ran out of time and had to ship. It makes me more willing to cut some slack as I absolutely think they would have delved into the more metaphysical reasons that Kirkwall was imploding instead of the few small references and small text that we ended up getting.
Yeah, a lot of the third acts issues seem to me like they didn't really have time to make changes to adjust to get it right. I also think they seem a bit constrained with doing "traditional" game mechanics of having to have a boss fight and a big decision decided by the player - the blood magic of the First Enchanter feels like it comes out of nowhere and I honestly don't think the player should have been able to pick a side but just have the two factions react to the consequences- they could have maybe left the decision of executing Anders but large theme of DA2 was that Hawkes wasn't a chosen one and the problems of Kirkwall where too big for one person to change alone. Maybe not even find out it was Anders until after the Templar's had declared an annulment and started massacring the circle.
 

ShiftyCow

Member
Nov 4, 2017
470
Here's the problem, DA2 is written terribly such that the Templars, even at their harshest, seem justified.

It's a massive problem with DA2, every "rogue" mage is terrible and eventually turns to Blood Magic. Every quest with a mage is like, "please help me, the Circle is oppressing us, we didn't even do nothing. They're gonna kill us, help us escape."

"Okay."

*A few days later*

"Muhahahah, I'm a blood mage. Bathe in the blood of my innocent victims you weaklings!"

Even at the very end, the Circle leader turns to Blood Magic and becomes an abomination while also revealing he secretly aided the blood mage that killed your mom. Just, what the fuck?!
I wish there was a list somewhere of all the blood mages in DA2, because I also remember a lot of them just turned to blood magic in self defense, or were slavers from Tevinter. It's true that Bioware tried to "both sides" the issue pretty hard but I thought it was clear nonetheless that Meredith and Elthina were to blame for the whole mess.
Be that as it may, my point was that Cullen didn't really change that much in Inquisition. If we assume that the templars (and Cullen) were justified in DA2, then Cullen didn't really need to "come around", and he kinda didn't.

This thread is getting pretty off topic, we really need that OT lol.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
Bringing this back to Inquisition, I must be in the minority but I really loved how they did Hawke in that game (even if I got the import bug and had to restart, lol). I thought it was the best they could have done to bring back a previous protagonist, and they devoted a reasonable amount of screen time and development to someone who wasn't even a part of the party.
 

Uhtred

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Banned
May 4, 2020
1,340
Reinstalled DA:I and installed some mods. Goign to try for a second replay for the umpteenth time, damn you guys.

Man, the beginning of this game is super good.