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dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,601
First thing first I am far from expert and there are way more knowledgeable people on this forum that I hope will help me and correct any misinformation and provide additional details regarding this topic. But after that Xbox Expandable Storage price thread I felt need to create this thread so console owners get to know few things before next-gen hits.

What is SSD?
Solid State Drive or SSD is storage device without any mechanical parts that uses flash memory for storage.

SSD Types
There are two SSD types in general use today, SATA and NVMe. SATA drives use SATA interface to communicate with rest of the system and they are limited to 600MB/s. NVMe drives use PCI Express lanes to communicate with rest of the system and their speed depends on which standard (PCIE 3.0 or PCIE 4.0) is used. Max speed for PCIE 3.0 is up to 3900MB/s fo x4 slot (usually used for NVMe drives) and PCIE 4.0 speed is more less double than that 7800MB/s again for x4 slot. Both consoles use PCIE 4.0 but with different speeds (Xbox uses speeds closer to PCIE 3.0 and PlayStation uses almost full PCIE 4.0 speeds (remember this this will be important later in the post)

Memory Types
Now that we made difference between SSD types we can make difference between another important part and that is memory. Memory types are
- Single Level Cell (SLC)
- Multi Level Cell (MLC)
- Triple Level Cell (TLC)
- Quad Level Cell (QLC)

Those are 4 main types of memory used in consumer space today. Each of those is different across multiple aspects, most important ones are reliability, life span and performance. Here is short pros-cons list from https://www.mydigitaldiscount.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-slc-mlc-and-tlc-nand-flash.html

SLC

Pros:

- Has the longest lifespan and charge cycles over any other type of flash.
- More reliable smaller room for read/write error.
- Can operate in a broader temperature range.

Cons:

- The most expensive type of NAND flash on the market.
- Often only available in smaller capacities.

Recommended for:

Industrial use and workloads that require heavy read/write cycles such as servers.


MLC

Pros:

- Lower production costs are passed onto you the consumer.
- Is more reliable than TLC flash.

Cons:

- Not as durable and reliable as SLC or enterprise SSDs.

Recommended for:

Everyday consumer use, gamers, and enthusiasts.

TLC

Pros:

- Cheaper to manufacture which in turn leads to cheaper to market SSDs.

Cons:

- Cells will survive considerably less read/write cycles compared to MLC NAND. This means that TLC flash is good for consumer use only.

Recommended for:

Everyday consumer use, web/email machines, netbooks, and tablets.

QLC from https://www.reneelab.com/difference-slc-mlc-tlc.html#qlc

Pros:

- Writing and accessing can be processed by fewer driver software than the other 3 types of NAND flash memory.
- More storage capacity, higher storage density and lower price.

Cons:

- The performance and life span of QLC is so good as SLC or MLC, but is nearly equal to TLC.

Recommended for:
Want to make SSD with QLC flash memory to be the data storage disk. If you have a heavy demand for data storage and do not save much data in computer, or you do not have enough budget on SSD, it is recommended to try SSD with QLC flash memory.

Thing that can be noticed in those lists is life cycle or life span. Yes every SSD has "expiration date" that is usually measured by TBW (Terabytes Written). This number is tied to memory type and remember this too as important information.


SSD Price
Now that we defined some things let's talk about price. Out of those things mentioned above memory type and interface type are what defines price for the most part. As i mentioned above both consoles use PCIE 4.0 standard so from the start prices will be higher because technology is newer. Then i said that remember that PlayStation will use almost full speed of that standard. That will drive price of the PlayStation SSDs really high. On top of that SSDs on consoles need to be reliable, with longer lifespan and with certain speed requirements i doubt that QLC memory will be used that will add to price too. Then we need to consider (for Xbox at least) that they actually created custom PCIE and smaller form factory of expandable cards that will also add to the price.

Conclusion

Why i made this tread? Because most of console users here don't have that deep knowledge regarding SSD (i don't have either but i am following tech for a longer because i am PC gamer first) so there is a lot of confusion about pricing of expandable storage for new consoles and questions why people can't use 80$ SSDs in new consoles. Based on info here be prepared to high costs of expandable storage for the new consoles in at least first 2 years. And don't be surprised to see PlayStation expandable storage cost more than Xbox one.
 

Bitch Pudding

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,202
I thought this crash course wouldn't be necessary until Sony announces their expansion product...

/s

thanks! A little bit more details / graphs about NVMEe price development and standard SSD / HDD comparisons would have been nice, though.
 

ColdSun

Together, we are strangers
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
3,292
giphy.gif

People looking at prices of various qualities of gen3 SSDs and then getting upset about new prices really got old far quicker than I thought it would
 

Biteren

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,607
man i wanted a 8TB but id have to take a loan out for somthing like that lol
 

super-famicom

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
25,202
SSD Guide anyone? NewMaxx is king of SSD guides

The Basics
www.cnet.com

Digital storage basics, Part 1: Internal storage vs. memory

CNET editor Dong Ngo goes over the basics of digital storage devices for home users.
www.cnet.com

Digital storage basics, Part 4: SSD explained

Do you know that there's a garbage collection inside your SSD? It's true! CNET editor Dong Ngo explains that and more. He also answers SSD-related questions.

More In-depth Information + Buying Guide
https://www.reddit.com/r/NewMaxx/wiki/basics (THIS IS THE BIBLE OF SSD)

Johnny Lucky SSD Database

Johnny Lucky has free information, a database, specifications, and links to technical reviews of solid state drives!
www.backblaze.com

Are Solid State Drives / SSDs More Reliable Than HDDs?

It's good to know the difference between HDDs and SSDs and understand how the different SSD technologies affect reliability.

Useful Infographic
www.rescuedigitalmedia.com

[Infographic] SSD Vs HDD: Solid State Drive And Hard Disk Drive Comparison

[Infographic] SSD Vs HDD: Solid State Drive And Hard Disk Drive Comparison. Which is better SSD or HDD? Find out by yourself by reading the comparison between SSD and HDD in this infographic.


Bonus!

iPFksed.png
 
Last edited:

Fahdi

Member
Jun 5, 2018
1,390
When Quantum Computing comes into the Fray someday as a home product we will all look back and laugh.
 

kami_sama

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,004
Yeah, when people look at the expansion ssd, they compare it to ssds that are both bigger and with less throughput.
 

super-famicom

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
25,202
OP
OP
dex3108

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,601
I am currently on mobile so editing OP won't be possible for another 8h so I apologize in advance.
 

Ninjadom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,195
London, UK
I bought a 1TB Samsung Evo 850 back in 2016 for my Mac. Still use the Mac everyday and it still seems fast.

What kind of life expectancy can I expect from this drive? It's been 4 years with no problems already?
 

Rikimaru

Member
Nov 2, 2017
851
Want to make SSD with QLC flash memory to be the data storage disk. If you have a heavy demand for data storage and do not save much data in computer, or you do not have enough budget on SSD, it is recommended to try SSD with QLC flash memory.

Thing that can be noticed in those lists is life cycle or life span. Yes every SSD has "expiration date" that is usually measured by TBW (Terabytes Written). This number is tied to memory type and remember this too as important information.
Do not use SSD, especially QLC as unpowered storage drive though. It can lose data after some time.
Not a problem with consoles though.
 

VanWinkle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,095
Because the Series X/S read speeds are 2.4GB/s, I actually assumed it was PCIe 3 until the price leak thread informed it was in fact gen 4. Still seems really high priced for the performance rating, but it at least made a little more sense after that.
 

FaffEra

Chicken Chaser
Member
Nov 8, 2017
384
UK
Need to highlight that regardless of the flash memory arrangement, you are unlikely to hit the maximum write cycles of a SSD in the time frame of, well past the end of this coming generation.

Any issues will be due to manufacturing errors causing early drive failures, like any HDD.

Also I haven't gone through every link but any SSDs marketed as 3D stack the memory on top of each other to overcome some of the cheaper flash technology's shortcomings.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
Great idea for a thread and we need those. I think a PS5 SSD |OT| would be great when we learned more about which SSD work.
 
OP
OP
dex3108

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,601
Great idea for a thread and we need those. I think a PS5 SSD |OT| would be great when we learned more about which SSD work.

There is no reason to separate them, both conses will use nvme drives with pcie 4.0 interface with different speeds. That is why Sony ones will be more expensive.
 

Kinan

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
648
The role of controllers is missing from OP. You can easily screw up your SSD performance with cheap/not optimized controllers regardless of the cell type. Its not that hard to hit high peak values, but high sustainable speeds is a completely different story. Thats where the real battle will happen.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
There is no reason to separate them, both conses will use nvme drives with pcie 4.0 interface with different speeds. That is why Sony ones will be more expensive.
I thought more about the available SSD options and Xbox sadly only has one. But if you want to do a general SSD guide with explanations like you did in this thread, then it makes sense to have one Series and PS SSD OT. Appreciate your work.
 
OP
OP
dex3108

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,601
Another thing I forgot to mention is that there are like 5 companies that manufacture memory for SSDs so people hoping for some kind of big competition good luck.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
There is no reason to separate them, both conses will use nvme drives with pcie 4.0 interface with different speeds. That is why Sony ones will be more expensive.

There are reasons to separate them, you just don't find them compelling.

The two new Xbox models will only support proprietary drives. It would be confusing for Xbox users to be in a thread where other drives are thrown around willy nilly and they wouldn't be supported.

Most likely there will be upgrade threads for both or the general platform threads will eventually deal with these issues themselves.
 
OP
OP
dex3108

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,601
There are reasons to separate them, you just don't find them compelling.

The two new Xbox models will only support proprietary drives. It would be confusing for Xbox users to be in a thread where other drives are thrown around willy nilly and they wouldn't be supported.

Most likely there will be upgrade threads for both or the general platform threads will eventually deal with these issues themselves.

Are we know for sure that PS5 will support any drive or only certified ones?
 

Deleted member 70824

User requested account closure
Banned
Jun 2, 2020
923
Very informative post OP.

Your post highlights a level of complexity that console gamers don't often have to contend with. Sony and MS have differing ideologies when it comes to expandable storage and there's a lot of debate about which solution is better. I'm not interested in discussing which company has the better solution. But simplicity has always been the key identity of console gaming. In this regard MS made the right choice with their SSD expansion solution.
 

Penny Royal

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
QLD, Australia
IIRC from RTPS5, the expansion drive on PS5 will need to be in the 7GB/s range to compensate for it only having 2 (or maybe 4) channels, as opposed to the onboard I/O complex having 12.

Also worth remembering that for both XSX & PS5 the SSDs aren't a discrete object like a PC, they're soldered onto the motherboard, and have a raft of custom stuff that pushes the performance up.
 

SmartWaffles

Member
Nov 15, 2017
6,246
IIRC from RTPS5, the expansion drive on PS5 will need to be in the 7GB/s range to compensate for it only having 2 (or maybe 4) channels, as opposed to the onboard I/O complex having 12.

Also worth remembering that for both XSX & PS5 the SSDs aren't a discrete object like a PC, they're soldered onto the motherboard, and have a raft of custom stuff that pushes the performance up.
Most mid range and higher end SSDs have 8 channel controllers, 4 channel ones are usually in the lower market sector.
 

Pottuvoi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,064
Are we know for sure that PS5 will support any drive or only certified ones?
Any SSD as USB drive for Ps4 games etc. (Cannot be used to play ps5 games from.)

Internal expansion port needs certified drive and can be used for ps5 games. (Not sure yet if expansion port can be used with non certified drives and only for Ps4 games.)
 
OP
OP
dex3108

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,601
My entire goal for this thread is to try to explain console owners why storage prices for next-gen will jump in price significantly and thay they need to make their purchase plans around that. Consoles will use various ways to lower space needed for games like smart delivery where only needed files like audio language would be downloaded or SP and MP download separation.
 

GhostofWar

Member
Apr 5, 2019
512
I bought a 1TB Samsung Evo 850 back in 2016 for my Mac. Still use the Mac everyday and it still seems fast.

What kind of life expectancy can I expect from this drive? It's been 4 years with no problems already?

According to the samsung site that drive has a 5 year warranty or 150 terabytes written. Unless your editing large videos daily or some other kind of write heavy work load the drive should outlast the computer.
 

EagleClaw

Member
Dec 31, 2018
10,691
What is that ps5 will only support certified drives talk?
Will there be PS5 SSDs with a special certification chip, or will the PS5 not have a standard interface for SSDs?

I'm pretty sure that the PS5 has a standrad SSD interface/bay, but of course sony will recommend some SSDs and maybe not every SSD will fit into the bay.
Like it is with every PS console since PS3.
 

Unkindled

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,247
What is that ps5 will only support certified drives talk?
Will there be PS5 SSDs with a special certification chip, or will the PS5 not have a standard interface for SSDs?

I'm pretty sure that the PS5 has a standrad SSD interface/bay, but of course sony will recommend some SSDs and maybe not every SSD will fit into the bay.
Like it is with every PS console since PS3.
There will be third party SSD's which will be approved by Sony that they will work on PS5. It will probably speed check the SSD inserted to see if it's compatible or not.
 

EagleClaw

Member
Dec 31, 2018
10,691
There will be third party SSD's which will be approved by Sony that they will work on PS5. It will probably speed check the SSD inserted to see if it's compatible or not.

That is how i understood it.
There are requirements like 7GB/s and the SSD has to fit into the housing, some have their own cooling fins.
But i never heard that there will be approved and licensed products.
If the product fits the requirements, it will work.

But here is said only certified SSDs will work on the PS5, so somehow has the console to know that a SSD is certified.
How will the PS5 know if the SSD is certified or not, if the SSD fits and has 7GB/s?
 

Unkindled

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,247
That is how i understood it.
There are requirements like 7GB/s and the SSD has to fit into the housing, some have their own cooling fins.
But i never heard that there will be approved and licensed products.
If the product fits the requirements, it will work.

But here is said only certified SSDs will work on the PS5, so somehow has the console to know that a SSD is certified.
How will the PS5 know if the SSD is certified or not, if the SSD fits and has 7GB/s?
There are many methods Sony can approach it.
Certified could just mean PS5 can identify which SSD has been inserted and skip the speed check process all together.
Right now I would think there will be approved SSD list compatible with PS5 which will be plug and play which the PS5 identifies and matches it with the list of approved SSD or just speed check's them.
 

EagleClaw

Member
Dec 31, 2018
10,691
There are many methods Sony can approach it.
Certified could just mean PS5 can identify which SSD has been inserted and skip the speed check process all together.

That is true, could be the case.
Checking some hardware serial or something.

Well, i don't have any info that this is the case, besides this very thread.
Personally i don't believe they will make a big certification process and will sell certificates.

But it is true that 7GB/s SSDs will be expensive.
 

Unkindled

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,247
That is true, could be the case.
Checking some hardware serial or something.

Well, i don't have any info that this is the case, besides this very thread.
Personally i don't believe they will make a big certification process and will sell certificates.

But it is true that 7GB/s SSDs will be expensive.
Identifying the SSD isn't hard. You can do it on PC easily.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,925
That is how i understood it.
There are requirements like 7GB/s and the SSD has to fit into the housing, some have their own cooling fins.
But i never heard that there will be approved and licensed products.
If the product fits the requirements, it will work.

But here is said only certified SSDs will work on the PS5, so somehow has the console to know that a SSD is certified.
How will the PS5 know if the SSD is certified or not, if the SSD fits and has 7GB/s?
I personally doubt that the console does a check, it probably just assumes that whatever you put in is good enough. Worst case scenario, the game would lag or have crashes if you installed an SSD that doesn't meet spec. The reason I doubt it checks is because that means the console must always have an up-to-date list of which SSDs are okay. PC motherboards have specific RAM sticks that are certified as compatible but usually you can get away with installing something that isn't actually on the list, it's just that the motherboard manufacturer never had a chance to test and validate it.

But Sony will at the very least keep a Qualifed Vendor List of some sort available online that lets consumers know which SSDs will be completely okay.
 

EagleClaw

Member
Dec 31, 2018
10,691
I personally doubt that the console does a check, it probably just assumes that whatever you put in is good enough. Worst case scenario, the game would lag or have crashes if you installed an SSD that doesn't meet spec.

But Sony will at the very least keep a Qualifed Vendor List of some sort that lets consumers know which SSDs will be completely okay.

That is how they have done it since the PS3.

It is true that it is easy to read out what kind of product the SSD is, and this thread seems to know that it will be now locked to specified products.
I don't know it, and somehow don't believe it also.
 

Cantona222

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,136
Kuwait
PCIE, QLC, NVMe, x4 slot..... I love tech jargons. However, I hope I can say that I now understand them 100% after reading the thread.
 

Ninjadom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,195
London, UK
Now how do SSD's compare in read/write speeds to machines with built in flash storage?

Would it have been cheaper for Sony/Microsoft to use that instead of an SSD?

For example,
Nintendo Switch - 32GB Flash storage
iPad Pro - Up to 1TB Flash storage.
 

Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992
Wow this is the rare thread that is super needed and super informative. Thank you dex3108 , I actually learned a lot
 

LiquidSolid

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,731
I personally doubt that the console does a check, it probably just assumes that whatever you put in is good enough. Worst case scenario, the game would lag or have crashes if you installed an SSD that doesn't meet spec. The reason I doubt it checks is because that means the console must always have an up-to-date list of which SSDs are okay. PC motherboards have specific RAM sticks that are certified as compatible but usually you can get away with installing something that isn't actually on the list, it's just that the motherboard manufacturer never had a chance to test and validate it.

But Sony will at the very least keep a Qualifed Vendor List of some sort available online that lets consumers know which SSDs will be completely okay.
Pretty much. I don't know where people in this thread got the idea the PS5 would only support specifically certified SSDs, all Cerny said was that they'd provide a list of supported drives.

Though there's no way they'd let you actually use a slow drive if you install one. Having your game crash because it's running on a slow drive it wasn't designed for would be an awful user experience that Sony will absolutely not want to happen. My bet is the PS5 will run a quick read/write test on the drive after you install it and if it fails, an error will pop up and it won't even let you format it, let alone put games on it.