Skill Based Match Making

[Deleted member 31333]

CoD players apparently. MLG video culture and killstreaks made them feel entitled to games with 20+ kills streaks and obscene kill/death ratio which doesn't really happen with a functionning SBMM

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CoD isn't alone in this. Destiny changed from SBMM to CBMM recently due to declining population and to cater to the streamers that want to curb stomp. Needless to say the top players were happy about the change but those that sucks at it complained. I'm in the middle so I'm okay either way.

I don't think there is a right solution but there should be some sort of SBMM to ease in new players.

With Destiny the problem gets amplified though because Bungie makes stupid quests that force people in to PvP that don't want to be there. No SBMM probably turns them off of it completely and they never go back or put up with it to complete the quest and hate the game more. I know I've had quests in Destiny that almost made me give up the game because I spent more time in Crucible than I wanted to be.

At least with CoD the players are going in to PvP by choice and not because they are forced in to it.

 

[Deleted member 2834]

I don't think I've ever heard an even remotly good argument against SBMM. I'm about 90% sure all these nerds on Twitter and memeing.

 

[StrappingYoungLance]

I like Skill Based Matchmaking, it's crazy to me that it's treated like it's the devil but then most people who are going to be vocal about this sort of thing are the people with higher skill. It bums me out that we have to have this argument every 6 months.

I prefer SBMM across a game, in its more casual playlists and in its ranked. If the ranked modes available are the same as casual then I have no problem with a SB/CB split, but when it isn't and the only way to play with SBMM is to play the most hardcore modes it's a bummer. CBMM turns casual playlists into a far less fun experience because I will never enjoy being stomped by randoms a million times better than I am. And I'll almost always have more fun beating a team in a tight competion than in a stomping.

I find it kind of sad that higher skilled players and streamers decided the only way to have fun in multiplayer is if they're stomping someone and that seems to be where the general attitude has shifted in recent years.

Ideally people could just play the same modes and choose between one or the other. But then only the hardcores would choose CBMM and they'd complain that they don't have any fodder to teabag.

 

[Defect]

Tone it the fuck down in the social modes. Keep it strict in the competitive/ranked modes.

 

[Niklel]

Depends on the game.
SBMM in Destiny (mostly TDM-like pvp) made me quit the game. Having sweaty matches all the time wasn't fun, and there wasn't any real motivation to improve at the game, because whatever you do, you will struggle and have a hard time.
While for overwatch (because it's a game about teamwork) making sure that all players in the lobby are around the same skill level is important.

 

[Alek]

Yea true. But I mean I don't know that there is anything that can be done about that?

Like, in League of Legends, the difference between a Challenger player (top 0.2%) and a Diamond 1 (top 2%) player in League of Legends is massive from the perspective of understanding the game flow and execution. But I mean, what can you do? You're already looking at the top 2% of the entire population of the game of millions of players...😬

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I was going to say this also. In Apex Legends ranked I get to like, top 1% but then I constantly meet people who are in the top 0.1% or so and they feel like they are so far and away from me it's insane.

I have a 5.0 KDR and some of them have 15+.

When you get to those very high levels it also becomes problematic because you're in a very small pool of players. So the matchmaking really struggles to get you matches with similar skill. In theory, it'd be better if you sub-divided even that small player pool, into another rank, and let the 1% fight each other to find out who belongs in the 0.1%, but then you'd have endless matchmaking times for the 0.1%.

At the end, you're always going to have people ahead of the curve. Who get put into a bracket where there skill is ultimately, not consistently matched by the rest of the matchmaking pool.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

I'm pro SBMM. Get good.

I don't understand the base level problem with it. I want to play with players that are generally around my skill level.

All the whining seems to be from people who just want to bully weaker players and feel good about themselves.

If you are pushed up up ranks and matched with players that are better than you, you will eventually go back down, right? Only thing hurt is an ego.

 

[KillLaCam]

Tone it the fuck down in the social modes. Keep it strict in the competitive/ranked modes.

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This.

It doesn't have to be completely gone but I wanna be able to have fun random matches in social modes. Everything shouldn't be a sweaty meta fest.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I was going to say this also. In Apex Legends ranked I get to like, top 1% but then I constantly meet people who are in the top 0.1% or so and they feel like they are so far and away from me it's insane.

I have a 5.0 KDR and some of them have 15+.

When you get to those very high levels it also becomes problematic because you're in a very small pool of players. So the matchmaking really struggles to get you matches with similar skill. In theory, it'd be better if you sub-divided even that small player pool, into another rank, and let the 1% fight each other to find out who belongs in the 0.1%, but then you'd have endless matchmaking times for the 0.1%.

At the end, you're always going to have people ahead of the curve. Who get put into a bracket where there skill is ultimately, not consistently matched by the rest of the matchmaking pool.

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Agreed.

I watch League of Legends streamers on occasion and I've seen queue times for the top 0.2% player base exceed 20 minutes as the game struggles to find players in or around their skill level.

Funny thing is, those same players will complain for the entire stream about their "stupid teammates" who are Diamond (top 1%-2%) and wish the game would stop matching them with those people who are causing them to lose matches.

So I mean, what is the solution...😬

 

[Leveean]

This is so bizarre from a moba-player perspective.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

Skill should be one factor in determining matchmaking; ping and connectivity should be the other big consideration. I think SBMM is fundamentally good, but it's a good that trades off against other goals of matchmaking. I'm not sure where the balance lies, but I'm happy enough with MM in modern games for the most part.

 

[Stoney Mason]

This is so bizarre from a moba-player perspective.

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It's a weird thing that is very prevalent in the cod community or communities very similar to it.

 

[est1992]

I'm fairly certain that much of what you're seeing in games today is not skill based matchmaking, it's engagement based matchmaking. A few years back there was data pushed around the industry that showed that hard SBMM had no impact on retention compared to no SBMM. But engagement based matchmaking, which essentially manipulates the matchmaking parameters to ensure that no one loses too often, was more effective.

http://web.cs.ucla.edu/~yzsun/papers/WWW17Chen_EOMM

I think this lack of impact refutes the idea that SBMM leads to a better player experience. Obviously those alleged benefits aren't all that material. The notion that without SBMM, players are getting rolled over and quitting all the time, doesn't appear to hold true, at least not in that study / game context.

Here's my previous thread about EBMM/EOMM.

Your thoughts on Engagement Based Matchmaking?

Whether or not a game should feature skill based matchmaking is a pretty common debate right now. However, something that I think is affecting the way the industry is moving, is called engagement based matchmaking (EBMM). I wanted to use this thread as a platform to talk about it. What is...

www.resetera.com

The aim of something like the matchmaking system in Apex Legends is not to make sure you have an equally skilled game every time, but to make sure you keep playing. In order to do that, they benefit by identifying what scenarios cause people to quit playing (often, losing streaks) and taking steps to prevent those scenarios from occurring (throwing you into games where skill is unbalanced in your favour).

So that's why you flip flop between thinking your great, and thinking you suck. At least that's often my feeling when playing many modern online games.

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This makes the most sense. Some weeks we'll get back to back to back W's in Warzone and others are a fucking slog.

If I were playing against people of the same caliber over and over, it would definitely be more consistent.

 

[495]

Is anybody in this thread addresing teamplay issues with SBMM?

Everything makes sense when in your examples you only mention one player but what if a group of friends with different skills want to play together? With SBMM all of my friends who cant hold their own in destiny 2 pvp quickplay, refused to play with me coz "i wont get kills, i wont have fun".

Now with CBMM they dont have that excuse anymore and they still suck! :)

 

[Dreams-Visions]

This is so bizarre from a moba-player perspective.

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agreed.

I've been playing League and Dota 2 since 2012. Not having some level of SBMM is foreign to me, even after years of playing Destiny 2 (which has had a mix).

Like, I actively *hate* (and I don't use that word lightly) being matched against new players in Destiny 2. And you can always tell who they are by what they're wearing or what weapons they're using. They don't stand a chance and it's obvious as soon as the match begins who's going to feed. It's unfun for me (winning a duel with a new player feels like shit), and I worry it discourages them from continuing to play PvP in the game. Nobody wants to post a 0.2 kda over multiple games. And in fact, I'm sure that there are many new Destiny 2 players who get shit on in a few matches of Destiny PvP (god help them if their first experiences include Iron Banner) and never come back to the playlist or the game at all. It just shouldn't be a burden I have to feel as a high-skill player. I shouldn't have to feel guilty for stomping a lobby.

But what choice am I given? I'm often not in the mood or incentivized to play ranked, where presumably people are because they want to win and increase their rank. IDK.

What I do know is that I preferred SBMM in Destiny 2 because I actually enjoyed earning my kills and wins, ranked or unranked, whether running meta weapons or not. What I *do not* enjoy is when the game matches large parties of players against solo players, SBMM or not. The advantage a stack of players has over a group of solo players in communication and coordination is massive. Match larger parties with larger parties and mostly solo players against solo and duo-stacks only.

Is anybody in this thread addresing teamplay issues with SBMM?

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Yes, scroll up. lol

 

[Defect]

While I agree it probably doesn't feel great for you, its still the better way of handling things. Another way to mitigate this issue is have modes that are more based around "fun" than "winning" which is why I've always respected Halo and its approach with party games that focus on fun. COD had something similar with Wager Matches in Black Ops 1 but unfortunately never put effort into it again.

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Even Super Fiesta in Halo 5 has strict skill based matchmaking. It's fucking ridiculous.

 

[SimpleCRIPPLE]

I'm lacking proof at the moment, but I feel there a ton of people that are amazing at CoD and shit at life, and vice versa.

 

[Death Penalty]

Some real projecting going on in that Tweet in the OP.

 

[smurfx]

where is the fun in stomping bad players? screw that i always like to play against good players. in fighting games you want to play good players because you will learn a ton from the losses. you learn nothing playing against bad players.

 

[SimpleCRIPPLE]

Tone it the fuck down in the social modes. Keep it strict in the competitive/ranked modes.

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This.

It doesn't have to be completely gone but I wanna be able to have fun random matches in social modes. Everything shouldn't be a sweaty meta fest.

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Yeah, in casual I'm fine with splitting it up to something like the top 50% match against each other and the same with the bottom 50%.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

where is the fun in stomping bad players? screw that i always like to play against good players. in fighting games you want to play good players because you will learn a ton from the losses. you learn nothing playing against bad players.

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These are probably not the kind of people who would get into fighting games

 

[Shroki]

where is the fun in stomping bad players? screw that i always like to play against good players. in fighting games you want to play good players because you will learn a ton from the losses. you learn nothing playing against bad players.

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Fighting game MMR is usually reserved for ranked modes only (sometimes casual modes will have MMR, but often they'll let you widen the parameters). The problem with, say, CoD MMR is skillbased applies to every mode.

Imagine if a fighting game had no lobby system and casual mode put you only up against random people of your own skill level, most often playing their mains and trying to win. Can you see how it would disincentivize doing other shit?

 

[gcwy]

That dude is mad salty

 

[Jared]

Does Fortnite have SBMM? What we have been doing with my 7 year old is have him as the party leader on his switch with my buddies and I on PS4. As my kid improved we have been getting into better games, that's the way it should be. You don't get better by playing against worse players. That's in anything you do.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Fighting game MMR is usually reserved for ranked modes only (sometimes casual modes will have MMR, but often they'll let you widen the parameters). The problem with, say, CoD MMR is skillbased applies to every mode.

Imagine if a fighting game had no lobby system and casual mode put you only up against random people of your own skill level, most often playing their mains and trying to win. Can you see how it would disincentivize doing other shit?

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Erm, I go in assuming that's what it does anyway.

Plus the people trying out new stuff also goes in with the expectation that they'll get their ass beat. After all, what's the point of trying out new stuff if they only work on bad players?

 

[VariantX]

I'm perfectly happy with playing people who are as good as I am. Beating up on people who can't fight back just for a dopamine hit doesn't sound fun and it's even less fun for them. That's probably due to me playing fighting games mostly with bad matchmaking

 

[Shroki]

Erm, I go in assuming that's what it does anyway.

Plus the people trying out new stuff also goes in with the expectation that they'll get their ass beat. After all, what's the point of trying out new stuff if they only work on bad players?

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If I go into casual and play somebody doing their main shit, I roll my eyes at them.

But even that's not really 1:1 here because A) you have a choice on what skill levels you want to play in most casual modes in fighting games and B) your stats take a hit in regular CoD modes, where they do not in many casual fighting game modes. And there are lobbies, which there aren't in CoD.

SBMM is obnoxious in CoD. It doesn't actually move my K/D. It just frustrates and keeps me from exploring other parts of the game. For what? So a few new players will play a few hours longer than they used to before they hit a wall and quit anyway? And if all I wanted was to dumpster new players, I could smurf and play the easiest batch of players I ever have. They claim SBMM was in every CoD going back to like BO2. Okay, just dial it back to to the level it was at every game pre-MW2019 then. Because MW2019 is a lot different.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

If I go into casual and play somebody doing their main shit, I roll my eyes at them.

But even that's not really 1:1 here because A) you have a choice on what skill levels you want to play in most casual modes in fighting games and B) your stats take a hit in regular CoD modes, where they do not in many casual fighting game modes. And there are lobbies, which there aren't in CoD.

SBMM is obnoxious in CoD. It doesn't actually move my K/D. It just frustrates and keeps me from exploring other parts of the game. For what? So a few new players will play a few hours longer than they used to before they hit a wall and quit anyway? And if all I wanted was to dumpster new players, I could smurf and play the easiest batch of players I ever have. They claim SBMM was in every CoD going back to like BO2. Okay, just dial it back to to the level it was at every game pre-MW2019 then. Because MW2019 is a lot different.

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Why would you u roll you eyes? What constitutes "main shit"?

Only stuff you are losing to?

I really don't understand this mentality. The point of playing a match is to win. I want the other guy to be playing to win, even if they are not using their main character.

There are no ranks or points on the line in unranked.

Like honestly, what don yo u want in unranked? Easy wins? People to go easy on you?

Trying to match you with people in your level seems like a good goal. Imagine the other person, the weak player.

 

[The Turbanator]

The people who complain about SBMM are usually either a: people who profit financially from being able to pubstomp; b: fanboys that just parrot whatever category a says; or c: care more about not being able to just mindlessly run and gun than about lesser players being able to put a single win on their record. Thank god SBMM has become more of a thing, because the alternative to SBMM where better players actually have to be awake to get kills is just mixing noobs with pros and shifting the sweating from the people who actually care about the game enough to get better to the players who just want to log on and have fun and not spend half the game staring at a killcam.

This is so bizarre from a moba-player perspective.

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As a fighting game player I can't imagine the shitfest that would be casual matches in SFV, DBFZ, etc without some sort of SBMM still existing.

 

[Bishop89]

The "you just want to pubstomp" excuse is fucking stupid; I'm sure there's a small segment of players that DO want that, but if you have a ranked mode with tight SBMM, any players that don't want to get "stomped" can play there? There is always someone worse than you, but if you're really worried about it you can just play that ranked mode and get the exact same experience you're getting now, then everyone who wants wild west free for all can play unranked? Like, there's no fucking reason not to offer the option.

I loved old games were you never knew what you were going to get; you could get a stomp, or you could get stomped and maybe actually learn something, or you might have a good match or a great comeback. Super tight SBMM eliminates all this because it's goal is to keep you at a 1.0 K/D and 50% W/L as much as possible. Not everyone is a sweatlord, I usually played in larger groups of very large swings in skill levels, and we could still have fun but that's almost impossible now because it's going to be a bad time for at least some folks one way or the other. And if I'm using guns or a setup I like but aren't super optimal I'm being actively punished for it. Getting super sweaty and trying to improve and go pro or whatever bullshit you want to throw out there isn't what's *fun* for everyone.

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I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

What the hell is a "sweat lord"? Is that a derogatory term for those that play to win?

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

What the hell is a "sweat lord"? Is that a derogatory term for those that play to win?

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Yes.

Sweating --> Focusing hard --> Playing optimally --> Only care about winning --> Must be an asshole --> Fuck 'em

 

[Deleted member 56752]

As someone who doesn't like pvp games anymore save for br every now and then, I'd prefer sbmm. I don't even play the game in destiny 2. I hate that game where it's just shotguns. I'm on twitter moving every 60 seconds just hoping to get a good piece of loot at the end

 

[Garrett 2U]

SBMM sucks so much if it is used in a non-ranked mode and there is a skill gap in your friends group.

I used to play Apex Legends with my girlfriend and her friend all the time; they weren't the best but they had a lot of fun.
When Respawn added SBMM, they weren't able to compete with players at my skill level, and it made them quit the game because they kept doing poorly.

Also just in general, the effort required skyrockets as skill level increases. So at low levels, you can try new strategies or just chill and play how you want. But at high skill levels, you need to put 100% into every game, use meta strategies, and be super sweaty.

 

[OrangePulp]

Yea true. But I mean I don't know that there is anything that can be done about that?

Like, in League of Legends, the difference between a Challenger player (top 0.2%) and a Diamond 1 (top 2%) player in League of Legends is massive from the perspective of understanding the game flow and execution. But I mean, what can you do? You're already looking at the top 2% of the entire population of the game of millions of players...😬

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This is something that surprised me when I first found out about it (not through personal experience, I'm not good enough) and I think isn't very obvious to most people: in many cases, the skill gap actually increases rather than decreases, when people get better. That being said, as you point out, it's such a small percentage of the playerbase that's affected by this, that it doesn't make sense to focus on them rather than the other 98% of players.

As for the issues pointed out regarding high rank players grouping with their lower rank friends... Trying to match up groups is always tough, and often times you only have bad options. It's also important to consider what the experience is for the people you're playing against; I know back when I played a lot of League, getting a team of a bunch of bad players with one great player was just the worst, however it turned out.

 

[shintoki]

What the hell is a "sweat lord"? Is that a derogatory term for those that play to win?

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The fact that sweat is now used as a insult is hilarious to me. I'm old.

Three things.

1. To the, "I can't play with my low level friends anymore". You are a shark playing minnows. You and your 3 friends, vs the 50 other players skilled in at your friends level. You're not the majority. It makes sense to base it on the highest level. Any comment about git gud can also be applied to your friends as well. Its easier for your 3 friends to git gud rather than the 50 other players in the game.

2. Games do not allow the wild west anymore with Matchmaking. It worked with servers when you had the same selection of players and a long time to mess around with the game. Matchmaking does not allow the same opportunity since in your in and out, typically with unmodified rule sets, and a new set of players every 10 minutes.

3. Skill Based ones fail a part at the higher end. The gaps between the .1% to 1% to 2% is tremendous, but also the selection of players reduces down to nothing. Add in players coming from a large range.

 

[shadoclone]

This is so bizarre from a moba-player perspective.

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Co-signing from a fighting game perspective, the idea of not wanting to play against players of similar level is so weird to me, the only barely valid complaint can be long queue times, but pretty much any fighting game player I know would rather wait a bit longer to have a good match, rather than get an instant match that's a stomp.

 

[Unicorn]

How soon we forget how good we have it. SBMM has been around a while and y'all forgot the matchmaking hell before it existed lol.

 

[Dark Ninja]

Co-signing from a fighting game perspective, the idea of not wanting to play against players of similar level is so weird to me, the only barely valid complaint can be long queue times, but pretty much any fighting game player I know would rather wait a bit longer to have a good match, rather than get an instant match that's a stomp.

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Fighting game matchmaking can be manipulated by losing to the lower ranks if you really want to fight against weak players. Street Fighter V for example you can stay in Bronze the entire time by only playing casual or throwing ranked matches the game only matches by rank and not time played.

 

[Advance_Alarm]

People crying that they are getting punished for "just trying an off-meta gun setup" are full of shit. You aren't being punished, you are PLAYING THE GAME. Every argument against SBMM boils down to wanting free wins. If you just wanted a fun game to relax after work you wouldn't care if you won or lost. You betray your own argument by connecting fun to winning or having a high KDA. Can't believe so many people in this generation of gaming are such chicken shits.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Fighting game matchmaking can be manipulated by losing to the lower ranks if you really want to fight against weak players. Street Fighter V for example you can stay in Bronze the entire time by only playing casual or throwing ranked matches the game only matches by rank and not time played.

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He's saying most of us wouldn't do this.

I'm a fighting game player as well. I always want to play against those that are at my level or higher.

There are probably those who would want to manipulate it for some reason. But most of my friends and acquaintances I have meet through the decades always want to play strong players. That's what is fun to us. The challenge and mind game of matching up with someone on your level and having the mental interaction. It's n out about the win or the loss. It's the act of playing the match.

 

[Mr Spasiba]

The amount of people in this thread saying "I'm not saying I want to pub stomp, I'm saying I don't want to try at all and still win" is truly interesting.

You guys see the contradiction in your thought process, right? If you really just want to goof around then why does the loss matter to you? Like you're all so close to getting the point.

 

[Dark Ninja]

He's saying most of us wouldn't do this.

I'm a fighting game player as well. I always want to play against those that are at my level or higher.

There are probably those who would want to manipulate it for some reason. But most of my friends and acquaintances I have meet through the decades always want to play strong players.

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Yeah i understand honor in fighting games lol but there is a sizable chunk of people who are INSANELY good in the lower ranks of gold in SFV since you dont even need to buy the game again to make multiple accounts.

 

[est1992]

Dude the analogies these guys are using are fucking weird.

I'm a pretty good hooper. I play all the time at LA fitness. I would never call a close game, win by 2 a "sweat fest" or whatever. Those are the best games! It's what you play for!

Why do you wanna shit on noobs anyway? Aren't you supposed to be a pro? Like wtf lol Kobe wouldn't even give a casual the time of day on the court.

 

[Mars]

Constantly shifting pro level METAs permeating into casual play and tier list are more detrimental.

Even in low ELOs, folks going off on tirades if you aren't using pro/advanced tactics or making strictly META only picks to be infinitely more headache inducing (where it doesn't even matter because of how volatile matches are due to the fact no one even having a grasp of the basics and players having no flexibility in play!). A single person snowballing can throw an entire match in the trash because the opposing team can't shift to another gear or adapt but will try to mimic a strategy used in a YouTube that doesn't work in said scenario.

Can't even naturally learn basics... no, no. NO. You have to go Pro. Out of the gate.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

The amount of people in this thread saying "I'm not saying I want to pub stomp, I'm saying I don't want to try at all and still win" is truly interesting.

You guys see the contradiction in your thought process, right? If you really just want to goof around then why does the loss matter to you? Like you're all so close to getting the point.

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Yea, I don't get it. You can play however you want, whenever you want.

What changes is if you win or not.

If the act of playing is just fun, winning or losing shouldn't matter, right.

 

[nekkid]

It's ironic, then, that I think anyone who takes playing video games that seriously are the ones unlikely to make it anywhere in life.

 

[Lobster Roll]

People crying that they are getting punished for "just trying an off-meta gun setup" are full of shit. You aren't being punished, you are PLAYING THE GAME. Every argument against SBMM boils down to wanting free wins. If you just wanted a fun game to relax after work you wouldn't care if you won or lost. You betray your own argument by connecting fun to winning or having a high KDA. Can't believe so many people in this generation of gaming are such chicken shits.

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Hi. I have a ton (like a TON) of experience in Warzone and I can assure you that going off meta is a sure-fire way to lose matches. Even little things, like not using a monolithic suppressor or an integral suppressor is the difference between winning & losing. Good players will prey upon anybody freely revealing themselves on the mini-map. Anyways, people are not using meta weapons for "free wins" but rather to have a shot at winning. So before you start whining about an entire generation of people, recognize the rules of the game itself. Sure, you can show up to the basketball court wearing socks & sandals and have some fun. But you're still going to get destroyed by the people who showed up wearing shoes. AK47 is socks & sandals. Kilo with the meta set is a pair of Jordan's.

 

[tobes231]

Reality check for content creators, you're not entitled to play against severely worse enemies just because you've got a following... SBMM makes the entire playerbase better, and therefore, leads to more exciting matches... You're not as special as you think you are.

 

[Deleted member 75819]

Reality check for content creators, you're not entitled to play against severely worse enemies just because you've got a following... SBMM makes the entire playerbase better, and therefore, a more fun experience... You're not as special as you think you are.

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Seems anti-SBMM sentiment is that winning and getting points without having to try as hard is more fun. It's the difference between feeling extrinsic reward and pleasure from winning/scoring vs intrinsic reward and pleasure from playing in and of itself.

Goofing around and expecting a win is having your cake and eating it too.