Skill Based Match Making

Rixan · Sep 19, 2020

Former GE in CSGO and current Immortal Valorant player - also love pub stomping in COD games

SBMM should either not exist or exist in a mild sense for non-ranked public matches. If it is indeed strict, and forced, it needs to be represented via an identifier so the player can work towards and earn ranks to display said skill, otherwise stats presented in leaderboards are entirely meaningless as there would be no baseline that exists. I continue to fail to see why this isn't easily understood.

I respect the need for it, especially from a player retention standpoint, but the implementation is very poor. It's a slap in the face to the enthusiast players who are lumped into struggle city with no "reward" all for the sake of long term dollars

495 · Sep 19, 2020

This created a shitstorm in destiny 2 as well.

It was SBMM for months and months and everybody (i mean streamers/youtubers) complained and they introduced CBMM.
I didnt mind SBMM. Sure, my kd was lower coz the games were sweatier and the matchmaking took waaaay more longer bu t i said to myself that "thats how i improve my skills, playing with good or better than me players".

With CBMM my kd skyrocketed, matches begin immediatly, i get a crapton of kills and i can use fun loadouts and still have fun. :)

Hasney · Sep 19, 2020

Dark Ninja said:
I think its the worst in Overwatch every QUICKPLAY match is an E-Sports final might aswell be playing ranked. But smurf accounts also throw the entire thing off randomly you will have a level 6 on your team and the other. But the other is a smurf so now your stuck carrying a team of noobs against pro level players.

It never feels like that to me. QP is a lot of fun, usually even teams bar the smurfs, but I really don't care about winning or losing, just getting better and analysing my game and team composition working out. Doing that had made me go up 3 ranks as tank in competitive.

Chaos2Frozen · Sep 19, 2020

The tweet in the OP is now on Scrubquotes lol.

LumberPanda · Sep 19, 2020

If you get matched against sweaties, you're a sweaty too and new players don't want to play against you either.

Sande · Sep 19, 2020

SBMM is fine, but hidden SBMM that doesn't show your tier or explain in any way how you got there is the devil.

The funny thing is that most games have separate ranked and "casual" playlists which should be perfect for everyone to have their way. But with SBMM casual can end up as the more competitive mode. Maybe I'm weird, but I'd rather have ranked and casual than ranked and hyper ranked.

Deleted member 18944 · Sep 19, 2020

Reddaye said:
I wonder how much if differs in something like a MOBA where it's pretty much entirely a team effort, and something like Call of Duty where traditionally really good players have been able to carry entire teams? Typically the loudest enemies of strict (or any) SBMM in the Call of Duty community are people who are capable of, and regularly have carried entire teams themselves. The funny thing is, they're also the same ones who complain about having 'bot' team mates.

Modern Warfare 2019 had no separation between Ranked and Unranked, and I found it pretty frustrating personally. I think SBMM should exist at some level, but it seemed far, far too strict in public matches of MW (which is literally the only thing available to play).

EDIT: As others have said too, COD tends to base it's SBMM on the party leader when you queue with friends. So if you have friends at a wide variety of skill levels (which we all do) someone is going to either have a super easy lobby, or friends are going to get crapped on. Which is even worse when it's supposed to just be regular public lobbies you're queuing for.

Solo Queue (solo q) in League of Legends is quite literally one person either carrying or enabling a carry to carry in a match. There is not a lot of team play until you make it in higher elos, where people instinctively understand the status of the match and what objective needs to be taken next.

So they are extremely similar in that one person can carry an entire team and 1v9. And those people who do win a ton of matches this way are often shot up into the higher elos until they plateau at their true skill level.

League also has a unique system of using LP(the points you have from each win or lose) and MMR(SBMM) to determine who you match with. What this does for the game is that, on average, 98% of all players are in the silver and gold elos. That percentage drops drastically when you reach platinum, and then every division within platinum has that percentage drop even further, and then, that difference is even more massive when you obviously hit Diamond, master, grandmaster, and challenger.

So, TLDR, and what I'm saying is -

League's SBMM system is extremely effective at placing you where you deserve to be.

degauss · Sep 19, 2020

It's kinda like level scaling in open-world RPGs, people didn't like that either.

Jolkien · Sep 19, 2020

Skill based matchmaking should be in every single game. It's no fun being dumptered constantly on nor is it fun to shit on people with them not having a way to win the game. If you really need to stomp people to feel good about yourself that's why smurfing exist.

bruhaha · Sep 19, 2020

Without SBMM game player populations would die out sooner as newbies would get stomped on by the hardcore and bounce off the game quickly since they don't have fun and don't live long enough to steadily improve. That naturally results in game populations only consisting of the hardest core players 6 months after launch. You'll end up with sweaty lobbies anyways and fewer players overall. The same people who complain about SBMM will also complain about sweaty lobbies and longer queue times so I can see why devs don't just listen to them.

packy17 · Sep 19, 2020

The main problem with SBMM is that it tends to prioritize elo over ping. I don't mind SBMM in principle but I don't want to be forced to play a game with people across the country (or in other regions) to make it happen.

Chaos2Frozen · Sep 19, 2020

degauss said:
It's kinda like level scaling in open-world RPGs, people didn't like that either.

There's no skill in open-world RPGs, all you have are numbers.

Stoney Mason · Sep 19, 2020

If a multiplayer game doesn't have sbmm and hopefully good team balancing then I have zero interest in it. I have zero interest as being served as fodder for twitch and youtube stars in match after match. And for COD that goes for regular lobbies. Ranked play is a high skill level playlist that require greater knowledge of how to play the game, and limit the number of modes greatly. Anybody who suggest that a person who wants to play people around their skill level should only played Ranked Mode is simply ignoring the scope of the issue. Fortunately COD devs tend to understand this and despite all the whinging and whining sbmm stays there for a good reason despite the complaining in every single COD title.

Dance Inferno · Sep 19, 2020

I can't take anti SBMM arguments seriously. People who argue against having SBMM are arguing for allowing not great players to be matched against great players. That's never going to be fun for the not great players, and will reduce the likelihood that those players stick around.

SBMM is good and should be in every multiplayer game.

lvl 99 Pixel · Sep 19, 2020

SBMM is a necessity. The only thing that sucks is that being better usually means a much smaller group of people you can be matched with, meaning potentially longer queues and less variety.

Ryan. said:

I understood maybe 20% of that tweet

Zombegoast · Sep 19, 2020

Transistor said:
Why don't you want to get paired with people of your skill level? Seems to be fine to me.

Without having to repeat what everyone has been saying, it forces the camping play style because everyone wants to go positive. footsteps are loud in Modern Wafare 2019, minimap doesn't exist outside UAV and maps are huge with a the line of sight being at one end of the map to the other. It's boring, games ends through a time limit, nobody ever move to play a objective game mode and it takes longer to pair me with players close to where I live which is me living in the East Coast and paired with West Coast players in a 12hz server

If I want to play a slow paced fps, I would go play CSGO which has a proper rank and casual mode.

BelieveMeUstink · Sep 19, 2020

DNAbro said:
People just don't like to realize that they aren't as good as they think they are. Never had an issue with SBMM. I win some, I lose some, it's fine.

That's how I feel. It is just not that important of an issue to me.
Out of tens straight matches. I will probably have 3-4 matches where I play really good. 3 where I'm just average and 3 where I play like dog shit. This has happen to me since I started playing multiplayer games.

Sande · Sep 19, 2020

MrDaravon said:
-The "you just want to pubstomp" excuse is fucking stupid; I'm sure there's a small segment of players that DO want that, but if you have a ranked mode with tight SBMM, any players that don't want to get "stomped" can play there? There is always someone worse than you, but if you're really worried about it you can just play that ranked mode and get the exact same experience you're getting now, then everyone who wants wild west free for all can play unranked? Like, there's no fucking reason not to offer the option.

This is more or less the entire source of the SBMM problem.

Ranked is a safe place for newcomers. But because of the naming and games generally pushing casual modes, newcomers seem to avoid ranked like the plague (edit: Not to mention ranked tends to be level gated). They pick casual, get their asses handed to them of course, and quit. The obvious solution is to make it clear they should be in ranked but instead heavy-handed SBMM systems started to get implemented in casual modes, leading to two ranked modes.

They "fixed" newcomers picking the wrong mode by making them the same.

J-Wood · Sep 19, 2020

What kills me about that Charlie intel tweet is they actually tweeted today about not being toxic and sending hate to the devs.

Like they LITERALLY just told people they will amount to nothing in life if you like SBMM. Just a toxicity circle.

RoboPlato · Sep 19, 2020

SBMM has become such a boogeyman in the CoD community over the past couple years.

Lobster Roll · Sep 19, 2020

Ryan. said:

Even by COD influencer standards, Scump sucks. His perspective is consistently annoying & worthless.

KarmaCow · Sep 19, 2020

Sande said:
This is more or less the entire source of the SBMM problem.

Ranked is a safe place for newcomers. But because of the naming and games generally pushing casual modes, newcomers seem to avoid ranked like the plague (edit: Not to mention ranked tends to be level gated). They pick casual, get their asses handed to them of course, and quit. The obvious solution is to make it clear they should be in ranked but instead heavy-handed SBMM systems started to get implemented in casual modes, leading to two ranked modes.

They "fixed" newcomers picking the wrong mode by making them the same.

In my experience ranked modes, or rather the ones that display your rank have the psychos who treat ranking down as an existential threat. Lower ranks are often more toxic too because of the bad players who rationalize their faults as their teammates letting them down. The amount of times I've played Overwatch comp with people insisting they should actually be inMaster and us lowly Diamond/Plat players are fucking it for them to justify why they're staying in spawn. Granted that has happen to me outside of ranked but the frequency is so much higher.

Zafir · Sep 19, 2020

I think it's good in most games, as getting owned makes people much less likely to want to play.

There's a few exceptions though, like Battle Royale games. In a battle royale game it gets pretty exhausting if every encounter is against people your level, so truthfully I just prefer to play the normal modes which doesn't have it on, much more exciting if you get a mix of people, even if some of them feel like they play the game as if it was their job.

EloquentM · Sep 19, 2020

carlota xbox said:
where do U stand on this controversial issue? is this the new sekiro difficulty conversation? discuss!

no? This conversation has been going on in FPS games for years.

Mupod · Sep 19, 2020

The kind of games I play that might have matchmaking (like HOTS) generally have nowhere near the population of a COD game, so skill based matchmaking usually doesn't work right and just gets frustrating. It's not fun to feel like you're getting punished for winning when some algorithm throws you to the wolves because it thinks you're not allowed to win 3 games in a row. It's really obvious when it does it too, like you'll be a 2-man group that gets matched against a 5-stack.

It can be nice when it works. If I had ever once cared about being competitive in Overwatch, then sticking in in a higher rating was a good experience because it was rare you'd get a total blowout, and your teammates really wanted to win and communicate. But if I played with friends and dropped to gold or whatever, you got all the toxic players. I remember Halo 3/Reach matchmaking being pretty good at least. Can't think of any other examples.

That said the most fun I've had in online games wasn't in games that had matchmaking in that sense. It was in games with a small pool of players where you got to know everyone, like a TF2 server I was a regular on. Or old WoW battlegrounds, or fighting game lobbies. Player skill (or gear) levels were all over the place but it worked out fine. Sure it might be rough when the godlike sniper or jacked up warrior is on the other team but it goes both ways.

Timeaisis · Sep 19, 2020

The dirty secret of the industry is there is no such thing as skill based matchmaking.

Freedonia · Sep 19, 2020

Sbmm varies so much between games that it's hard to give a blanket opinion. Sbmm in MW is solid for solo play, but it destroyed my gaming group. I was having normal matches where people were around my skill level and I was able to drop big killstreaks and do well, meanwhile my buddies would have to fight just to stay positive. Those type of sessions can be stressful, so they dropped it pretty quickly. Overall I'm ok with sbmm because I don't mind sweating, but I would like more transparency and ranked modes as well.

WalshyB · Sep 19, 2020

The issue with SBMM is when you want to play with your friends... if you're higher skilled than they are then good luck having fun when they're constantly being stomped on.

Stoney Mason · Sep 19, 2020

KarmaCow said:
In my experience ranked modes, or rather the ones that display your rank have the psychos who treat ranking down as an existential threat. Lower ranks are often more toxic too because of the bad players who rationalize their faults as their teammates letting them down. The amount of times I've played Overwatch comp with people insisting they should actually be inMaster and us lowly Diamond/Plat players are fucking it for them to justify why they're staying in spawn. Granted that has happen to me outside of ranked but the frequency is so much higher.

Not to mention that once again Ranked in COD has less modes. And the modes that aren't even popular among casuals. There is no TDM in Ranked. TDM is what 90% of the community plays especially lower skill players precisely because it doesn't require team work. Putting casuals in modes like S&D and Hardpoint is absurd. Not to mention that ranked in every game brings out the the most toxic elements of the community. They will flame any and everybody who "RUINS" their game no matter what skill level you are.

Brhoom · Sep 19, 2020

Literally any online game has more sweaty people in party mode than in ranked. Pokemon S&S players are more tryhardy in unranked than ranked

SBMM shuts smurfs who enjoy bullying new players, I actually confronted a smurf irl, he said ''I just care about winning, it doesn't matter what happens in the match. If I don't win, it was unfun for me''.

I convinced my friend after almost a year to play Dead by Daylight, we played and half the matches were smurfs, it was an unenjoyable experience.

Stoney Mason · Sep 19, 2020

WalshyB said:
The issue with SBMM is when you want to play with your friends... if you're higher skilled than they are then good luck having fun when they're constantly being stomped on.

And here is another issue on the other side of that. One of the reasons I hate cod matchmaking is that it isn't sometimes strict about matching parties with parties. So you sometimes end up playing against 5 and 6 stacks and get destroyed as a solo player because one side is communicating and the other isn't. No system is perfect. But the goal should work towards balance.

diablogg · Sep 19, 2020

I don't know what that tool is tweeting about, or why it can even be seen as a negative. As far as I'm concerned a system that helps me to win 50% and lose 50% of my games is functioning correctly.

Vimto · Sep 19, 2020

lvl 99 Pixel said:
I understood maybe 20% of that tweet

I was just about to say 😂😂

iswasdoes · Sep 19, 2020

The problem with super brothers mario mario is that it highlights the inherent phonetic problem with mario being 'mario mario' because by the time they thought of the problem, they were too successful to find a meaningful solution

cyrribrae · Sep 19, 2020

It's funny how this forum represents such a different hardcore crowd than other hardcore gaming crowds. This blew up on Twitter, and yet I don't care about it at all. And on here, so few people care either lol

Weird.

Navid · Sep 19, 2020

Think grouping all SBMM system together isn't great in the first place, some do it better and some still need some work...

But seeing that the people who seemingly always complain about SBMM are ones who are quick to call anyone who is better than them "tryhards" and anyone who is worse than them "noobs" makes it hard to take the complaints seriously.

Kor of Memory · Sep 19, 2020

I know SBMM has its place. And that all of this is way more complex than just SBMM vs CBMM.
But I can tell you right now, SBMM keeps me from being able to play pvp games with my real life friends. Every game it never fails. I place high up enough to not be pro, but like a top 5% player usually.
Then all of my friends get pulled into my games against my opponents where they proceed to get their asses handed to them and never want to play with me because of it. I can't even play games with my wife.
You have any idea how much it sucks to have a wife who loves playing games like destiny and halo but has the absolute worst time playing with you specifically? It fucking blows.

Sage · Sep 19, 2020

Ryan. said:
Keep it in.

Devs have already said it helps player retention in their games and you'd actually be surprised how long it's been around without people noticing.

For example:

Lol this is incredible.

Dreams-Visions · Sep 19, 2020

Navid said:
Think grouping all SBMM system together isn't great in the first place, some do it better and some still need some work...

But seeing that the people who seemingly always complain about SBMM are ones who are quick to call anyone who is better than them "tryhards" and anyone who is worse than them "noobs" makes it hard to take the complaints seriously.

agreed on both counts.

Kor of Memory said:
I know SBMM has its place. And that all of this is way more complex than just SBMM vs CBMM.
But I can tell you right now, SBMM keeps me from being able to play pvp games with my real life friends. Every game it never fails. I place high up enough to not be pro, but like a top 5% player usually.
Then all of my friends get pulled into my games against my opponents where they proceed to get their asses handed to them and never want to play with me because of it. I can't even play games with my wife.
You have any idea how much it sucks to have a wife who loves playing games like destiny and halo but has the absolute worst time playing with you specifically? It fucking blows.

Yea that sucks.

Imbalanced parties fundamentally break most SBMM implementations.

turbobrick · Sep 19, 2020

I'm pro-SBMM. While I do think that casual matches should be more loose and focus on queue times, I think it should still be there to have a somewhat balanced game. I mostly play Overwatch, Valorant, and CSGO, and I think those games do it decent enough. Playing quickplay in Overwatch with no SBMM at all would be horrible.

SecondNature · Sep 19, 2020

Kor of Memory said:
I know SBMM has its place. And that all of this is way more complex than just SBMM vs CBMM.
But I can tell you right now, SBMM keeps me from being able to play pvp games with my real life friends. Every game it never fails. I place high up enough to not be pro, but like a top 5% player usually.
Then all of my friends get pulled into my games against my opponents where they proceed to get their asses handed to them and never want to play with me because of it. I can't even play games with my wife.
You have any idea how much it sucks to have a wife who loves playing games like destiny and halo but has the absolute worst time playing with you specifically? It fucking blows.

Yep— the parameters and behaviour of cod's sbmm doesnt feel right

u can play well and then suddenly the game throws u into lobbies that seem significantly better than u

DaciaJC · Sep 19, 2020

I'm continually amazed that so many people in the community (not this forum, necessarily) are vehemently against the idea of players of similar skill being matched against each other rather than experienced players being allowed to run amok among newbies all the time. God forbid that they should have to actually put some effort into their wins.

ryu_highabusa · Sep 19, 2020

bonch00ski said:
What the fuck is SBMM

Super Bmash Mros Melee

Kor of Memory · Sep 19, 2020

Dreams-Visions said:
agreed on both counts.

Yea that sucks.

Imbalanced parties fundamentally break most SBMM implementations.

What sucks is it's not even that imbalanced. It's just that when you get closer to the top end the skill jumps are huge.
My wife is probably a top 15-12% player in most games. But that jump from 15 to 5 in most games is brutal.

Makeno · Sep 19, 2020

495 said:
This created a shitstorm in destiny 2 as well.

It was SBMM for months and months and everybody (i mean streamers/youtubers) complained and they introduced CBMM.
I didnt mind SBMM. Sure, my kd was lower coz the games were sweatier and the matchmaking took waaaay more longer bu t i said to myself that "thats how i improve my skills, playing with good or better than me players".

With CBMM my kd skyrocketed, matches begin immediatly, i get a crapton of kills and i can use fun loadouts and still have fun. :)

Quickplay is more fun. I basically only play PVP since they removed it.

Stoney Mason · Sep 19, 2020

Kor of Memory said:
I know SBMM has its place. And that all of this is way more complex than just SBMM vs CBMM.
But I can tell you right now, SBMM keeps me from being able to play pvp games with my real life friends. Every game it never fails. I place high up enough to not be pro, but like a top 5% player usually.
Then all of my friends get pulled into my games against my opponents where they proceed to get their asses handed to them and never want to play with me because of it. I can't even play games with my wife.
You have any idea how much it sucks to have a wife who loves playing games like destiny and halo but has the absolute worst time playing with you specifically? It fucking blows.

While I agree it probably doesn't feel great for you, its still the better way of handling things. Another way to mitigate this issue is have modes that are more based around "fun" than "winning" which is why I've always respected Halo and its approach with party games that focus on fun. COD had something similar with Wager Matches in Black Ops 1 but unfortunately never put effort into it again.

Daouzin · Sep 19, 2020

Creatchee said:
It's a psychological thing. There was a time when these players weren't good at a particular game and they got the shit kicked out of them. But they pressed on, got better and started seeing "their name in lights". It's quite the narcotic-like effect. Now they have to be on top or else the game isn't fun anymore. It doesn't feel right. They can take a loss or two here and there, but they want to dominate their competition at a much greater rate.

This is all it is and all the defenses in this thread against SBMM are laughable. You should want to play against people at your level. If you want to level up a pistol or weapon you don't normally use or that goes against the meta, well then work for it. I don't see the issue here. Using a low-tier weapon should be teaching you more about the game, unless the game is hot garbage, and it should be forcing you to play better if you want the results of winning.

Also, who cares if you win or not if you're experimenting. It should be okay to lose and STILL have fun even if you're experimenting. The notion that you want to play badly on-purpose (against the meta that you know of) and still win, is literally asking to play against babies and then being sad that you can't.

SteveByDesign said:
I don't understand. If it is based on skill then all the good players are playing against other good players. Sounds like they are upset because they are not the best player in the lobby anymore.

Yup. Anyone that's been good at a mainstream title can attest to this. As a Melee player (SSBM) I encounter people every couple of months that are confident they can beat me at Ultimate, Smash 64, Melee, etc, and then when I effortlessly dunk on them, they get super salty and starting Johning. People that play against scrubs all day and think they are the best, and thus "not scrubs," get the saltiest when it comes to realizing they are in fact scrubs too.

Sorry, you were a big fish in a really small pond. If it really matters to you, get good? I don't know what else to say.

Freedonia · Sep 19, 2020

Scarf said:
I'd love to play with and against players of similiar skill level in Apex Legends! That would actually be fun instead of that abomination of an SBMM the game has. By far the most unfair and infuriating gaming experience I've ever had.

If you're an above avarage player without a premade squad, you have to carry below avarage players against sweaty Apex Predator premade squads constantly. Until the game decides to give you an easier lobby so you can get a win and are more likely to continue playing.

Apex Legends' "Skill" Based Matchmaking (or An Engagement Optimized Matchmaking Framework, named by the lovely folks of EA) is nothing but a manipulating system trying to get you hooked:

https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegend...urce=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

No fairness for players like me. The game chooses when you have a shot of winning. It's like gambling.

Yea, this is what I mean about sbmm varying between games. Sbmm in apex is just plain bad. The game expects average/above average players to carry people who have an hr of playtime against premade squads of elite players in the quickplay playlist, which is supposed to be casual lmao. The ranked mode is fun until platinum, then it just turns into the above scenario, with the added bonus of more third partying and an even greater chance of facing those premade predator death squads. You know the sbmm is weird when casual can be harder than ranked

Alek · Sep 19, 2020

I'm fairly certain that much of what you're seeing in games today is not skill based matchmaking, it's engagement based matchmaking. A few years back there was data pushed around the industry that showed that hard SBMM had no impact on retention compared to no SBMM. But engagement based matchmaking, which essentially manipulates the matchmaking parameters to ensure that no one loses too often, was more effective.

http://web.cs.ucla.edu/~yzsun/papers/WWW17Chen_EOMM

I think this lack of impact refutes the idea that SBMM leads to a better player experience. Obviously those alleged benefits aren't all that material. The notion that without SBMM, players are getting rolled over and quitting all the time, doesn't appear to hold true, at least not in that study / game context.

Here's my previous thread about EBMM/EOMM.

Your thoughts on Engagement Based Matchmaking?

Whether or not a game should feature skill based matchmaking is a pretty common debate right now. However, something that I think is affecting the way the industry is moving, is called engagement based matchmaking (EBMM). I wanted to use this thread as a platform to talk about it. What is...

www.resetera.com

The aim of something like the matchmaking system in Apex Legends is not to make sure you have an equally skilled game every time, but to make sure you keep playing. In order to do that, they benefit by identifying what scenarios cause people to quit playing (often, losing streaks) and taking steps to prevent those scenarios from occurring (throwing you into games where skill is unbalanced in your favour).

So that's why you flip flop between thinking your great, and thinking you suck. At least that's often my feeling when playing many modern online games.

Dreams-Visions · Sep 19, 2020

Kor of Memory said:
What sucks is it's not even that imbalanced. It's just that when you get closer to the top end the skill jumps are huge.
My wife is probably a top 15-12% player in most games. But that jump from 15 to 5 in most games is brutal.

Yea true. But I mean I don't know that there is anything that can be done about that?

Like, in League of Legends, the difference between a Challenger player (top 0.2%) and a Diamond 1 (top 2%) player in League of Legends is massive from the perspective of understanding the game flow and execution. But I mean, what can you do? You're already looking at the top 2% of the entire population of the game of millions of players...😬

Skill Based Match Making

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