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He won't he'll just give Republicans some good sound bites of "EVEN BERNIE doesn't thing the bill is good" and make leftists downplay the bill because "why couldn't this this and this be in it too."
Yeah, there's totally a way for Bernie to do this where it's "I'm excited about this bill, but we should be doing so much more, it's critical, etc, and it's just a shame not a single republican can find their way to supporting this vital legislation." Really, how hard is that? Get your point across without pointing fingers in the wrong direction and giving the right sound bites for the general.
Depressing some of your dedicated fanbase from making a difference from easily foreseeable knock-on political consequences come election time to own the establishment libs
I'm afraid to look back. Last I checked this afternoon it was under 200 posts.
I mean, Sinema and Manchin absolutely fucked this bill up and he's right for calling it out.
To what end? What does he accomplish?
maybe Save it for after the election.
he is guna vote for it, if he kills it he will get nothing from dems ever again, its grandstanding.
Panicky people terrified Bernie's disapproving remarks on the IRA are somehow going to tank Dems at the polls this November and alts just as predictably popping up to defend him. It's all very tiresome.
I know he's gonna vote for it, I'm saying what is gained by shitting on Manchin and Sinema now? It Certainly won't turn out more voters In November.
Democrats fucking democrats in the pursuit of purity. A tale as old as time. Snake eats tail.
I was talking about Bernie. Spell it out for me, what does he gain?
It's not that we can't hope for something better. A frustrating thing about these conversations is that it really shouldn't be some sort of revelation that most Democrats hope for better.
I'm a proud Democrat. I volunteer with other proud Democrats. Teachers, and hairstylists and waitresses. We're all hoping for better. But we're not going to volunteer to trip ourselves on the road to better because we couldn't teleport there.
Progress is progress. And that really should be clearer now, in this climate, than ever before.
I'm just sick of half-assing everything due to two people (and an entire opposition party) and I'd be ranting like hell if I were a senator too.
Ah, my apologies, I didn't realize you were making a simple point that it was just ego.
Often that's what it comes down too.
Bernie believes in a lot of great things. He's also, at his core, a politician, which means above almost all Bernie believes in Bernie.
You know what's worse than getting half? Getting NONE.
Roe v Wade was just taken away. We do NOT have time for Sander's temper tantrums (and that's exactly what they are). If even just a thousand people in key swing states/districts listing to Sander's whining and decide to stay home this November, that could mean the difference between keeping the Senate/House or watching the GoP steel the presidentail election in 2024.
Jesus H. Christ, for all his many, many, MANY faults, I thought Sanders was an intelligent man and understood this. Was I wrong?
I remember conversations regarding Bernie's proposals years ago. A lot of people would tell me that he's actually proposing more than what he really wants because it's a common negotiating tactic. Which would imply Bernie actually cared about negotiating and taking what he can get. Guess they were wrong.
Unfortunately, the enablers in this country all resemble your average West Virginian.
We have a party that tries to cater to republicans when they are not republicans. It drives me crazy too they don't listen to their constituents most of the time and that those dishonest Para demon republicans are so much better at selling venom. Bernie doing his thing does not bother me. I am glad at least one Senator fights for their constituents. Republicans will take anything to use as a weapon against dems. They don't care cause they are political demons. Regardless of this, at least something is happening even if it isn't nearly enough and was dictated by 2 senators cause the party leaders cannot whip votes for their life. Hoping for much better in the future of course as this hopefully changes for the better even if I think we are going to be taking a rough road to get there.
The only time we get anything we want is when Manchin doesn't listen to his constituents.
I sincerely doubt this would actually sway them that way. Look at the party as a whole when looking at decisions like that. The indecision lies with promises made and not being kept. Those people made the decision long before Sanders complained about something. I know it sucks but it is the system here at fault. Not one politician complaining about something.
Talking moreso about the party as a whole. Sorry for not clarifying that. But also I will say something a little controversial here but I feel most people are economically more left then they think they are from my conversations throughout my life with republicans and I believe Manchin's constituents would like a lot of that stuff. Only reason we agreed to any of this imo is because of the money lining his wallet with the things being given to his biggest donors (mainly oil) But yeah you are right about that. He didn't. Again rolling back to me talking about the system itself being the issue. Which I hopeso overtime as the younger generations continue to get in there and the older ones out that will change. Lobbying being gone would be such a good thing for everyone imo.
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What's an example of a promise made but not kept?
I'm not discounting one's ability to be disappointed, but this seems overly simplistic.
Amazing how Sinema and Manchin are all of the sudden deciding to work with their party. And by no coincidence Trump and Republicans mad that both of them aren't doing they want anymore. Some nefarious shit going on behind the scenes.
OP
OP
The whole helping out others that are different from you is the biggest hurdle.
Having your party platform run on progressive policies that clearly never were going to pass or they were truly fight going to fight for? 15 dollar minimum wage could have been fought harder for and overrulled by harris to be included in that bill. Obviously there are other underlying issues though that cause that like the lack of a filibuster proof majority, republicans making it harder to vote with restrictive voting laws, Gerrymandering exists and redistricting that last 50+ years. Lobbying and corporate interests heavily influences politics. It is a republicans ran country regardless of it they are the minority or not. I guess my biggest issue is me just wanting them to actually fight for something. Which is why I don't give Bernie shit for fighting for what he believes in. I want the whole party to do that. I am fine with the progress of course. This is overall at net positive. But yeah you are right this is just disappointment from me for the most part. Sorry to bring everyone down
That's the problem. These senators are individuals, and there is no magic switch that party leaders can flip to force them to play along. The idea of easily whipping the necessary votes doesn't really hold up when there is literally no margin for error.
I'm sure that Democratic leaders worked very hard behind the scenes to get this legislation to where it is.
EDIT: If we can get to 52+ senate seats in November and keep the house, and we still have to accept so many half-measures, complaining about the party as a whole will be a lot more warranted. As it is now, anything substantial that gets done is practically a miracle.
Oh agreed but those are the people he represents. Just brain rotted to the core with bigotted views throughout.
No need to apologize; I wasn't coming for you. Like, I said, I understand people being disappointed.
Remove them from committees, they have to be political demons like republicans? So be it. I am of the mind most of these senators, for a lack of a better term, would "fall in line" No magical switch but applying pressure would definitely at least make everyone feel like they are trying. Oh and of course they worked with what they had no doubt. My thing is just, DO BETTER. But obviously lobbying exists so only so much they can do when you are only part of the voice being heard.
So do you want Senators to listen to their constituents, or to do what you want then to do?
Because with Manchin those are very different things. And if it's the latter, fine. But don't say you want him to listen to his constituents, and then say the Democratic Party should punish him for doing just that.
one day I will read a plan about how the US Senate could've gone better that wouldn't just be "I would simply have stepped in" with more words
like whipping and similar actions aren't magical processes: it's incredibly hard to do that kind of thing with just thin majorities, much less "you literally need everybody to agree or else nothing gets passed" non-existent margins
like whipping and similar actions aren't magical processes: it's incredibly hard to do that kind of thing with just thin majorities, much less "you literally need everybody to agree or else nothing gets passed" non-existent margins
I wish people who did that would just admit 1.) They don't have a clue how US politics actually work. and 2.) They don't care or want to be educated about it, and just want to vent.
It would make things much less aggravating for everyone involved.
Maybe they're about to get dropped in the great Alex Jones text dump.
As has been pointed out numerous times, the IRA is basically entirely made out of things Manchin has explicitly supported for a long time.
As for Sinema, well she doesn't really seem to have many solid convictions at all, so without Manchin also causing trouble she's fine with getting some sort of public concession and then moving out of the way.
I am a bit confused here and maybe I wasn't clear. I don't think he listens to his constituents. And I personally feel his moderate base is not being spoken for a majority of the time. Also would like those things that didn't happen even if they say they don't cause they are brainwashed and think its socialism or something. I wholeheartedly believe he doesn't care about them he lined his pockets anyway, doesn't even care about reelection, and only because of that pressure that them Dems slightly gave we got something passed for once. They should continue to be aggressive and get people to "fall in line" I am of the mind that he would got reelected easily if he went for everything that was set up. Because those people he represents would be getting the benefits from that. You get stuff done, people vote imo (even if the cards are stacked against them when a ton of stuff is being made to stop them from voting). So to close this up, this bill passing is a net positive and a good thing. I am glad, even if I want these people to do better, got something done even if they had to hook up big oil to do it. My main point is, I have no issue with Bernie wanting better, pushing for better even if it is meaningless for the most part besides good press for himself to do so. He took the action is what matters to me. I am a firm believer in optics don't matter, action does. I think we all want better. Also I am pretty new to politics and am continuing to learn so don't eviscerate me. Sorry if I came across aggressive, don't mean to. Have a good one. Glad to talk to ya about it.
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So…you think they do want these things, based on nothing but your own conjecture, but even if they say they don't they really do.
Well, that certainly makes things simple. It also completely ignores the fact that Manchin is one of the most popular Senators in the country in his own state, so they do seem to fell like he is representing their interests well in Congress.
Also what pressure do you think Democrats applied to him to force him to vote this way if he didn't want to do it, doesn't care about his constituents, doesn't care about wining elections, and doesn't care about money. Do you think they kidnapped his dog or something?
I understand you are new to thinking about politics, but at this point a lot of your opinions seem based on random thoughts, supposition, and emotions, rather than much evidence or logical consideration.
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Manchin is incredibly popular among his constituents, he has one of the highest approval rates among his own state of any senator. And this is in an INCREDIBLY conservative state. I'm not saying he doesn't sometimes listen to lobbyists over constituents, but many of his actions are definitely in line with what his constituents want. Like they definitely don't want him nuking the filibuster. By and large his voters are not only moderates, but they're often even straight up republicans.
They clearly think he does if they keep re-electing him.
And that mentality cost Sanders the nom twice in a row.