I get the schoolbook definition is BS, but y'all only have to consider the historic plight of your Native Peoples one day a year and that's too much?
The proud ignorance here is a lil sad.
The proud ignorance here is a lil sad.
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Since it's November, annual reminder: Thanksgiving is a problematic holiday, "celebrates a myth of colonialism and white proprietorship of the U.S."
- Thread starter Deleted member 3812
- Start date
I don't think anyone here at least is denial or unaware of the genocides and atrocities that the US and its precursors committed against the native americans. We just don't think those things really have any bearing on the modern holiday for pretty much anyone
Holy shit, I was thinking the same exact thing!
Yeah, OP... Pretty sure for most people it's just about family, and being thankful for them and for life in general.
Oh I'm not arguing that people are still assholes to Native Americans, they are, and I still strongly believe that all treaties should be held to and land returned. However, I do think having something of a starting point to show that people can be seen as different and that you can work together needs to be had. Again, having folk tales that many people are familar with can help in how people see themselves as one group vs. many. It's something that keeps being argued about within American society, that we have no mythology, no shared stories.
"Proud Ignorance." Get off your high horse, we are very able to celebrate and also reflect on the same day.
I celebrate Canadian Thanksgiving. We weren't given any backstory in school at all, in my experience, just "It's harvest season and be thankful for the food!".
I'm talking about all the people here who are pretty much saying they don't want to do that last bit.
User Banned (5 Days): Dismissive trolling
Haha I promise to think of your comment at least once when I'm helping myself to a second serving of turkey.
Really, though, get over yourself.
edit: This isn't really a response, but an explanation of why I made that comparison earlier:
The reason I'm using it is because it's topical right now, I am Dutch, but more importantly it's an obvious sign of "you got a racism!" that is in need of fixing.
But... the thing about actual racism is that is supposed to be invisible. Not just quantum-locked, like this:
We believe things that are based on what gets repeated the most, and even when you do become aware of things like Columbus being a genocidal asshole, you might forget that later on (which is something that actually happened to me a few years ago), because it's not the version most people will repeat or educate. As such, any racist history is quickly ignored, rewritten, and utimately buried under layers of "that's not a thing!", except they are, and they need to be dug up, examined, and thrown into the trash where those racist traditions belong.
You can't be a progressive without bringing a shovel to every debate. You have to dig, and it's going to hurt. Pretend otherwise, and you're just another moderate (white) who is a-okay with invisible racism. Invisible, because it doesn't affect YOU. Now ask your native friends whether that's true for them.
fake not-edit: I am sure people will think my post here is some BS of some kind, but that is my honest view on things. I am not interested in 'woke cred', I want people to see something they don't want to see. For one, because I didn't see that shit either before. Because when you refuse, you get the exact response to most of us Dutches give to Black Pete: "it's not racism, because we don't see it".
Also, taking that day off as a payment while not having proper vacation days...
Why would they when that isn't what Thanksgiving is about?
I'm from Plymouth. Ask me anything.
It might surprise people outside of Plymouth to learn that the town itself has been trying to educate people on the history of the time as a whole, but people are still going to believe whatever mythological story was built up around it.
For one, it's amazing there was relative peace for 50 years before King Philips war occurred. The Plymouth colony and Bay colony (Boston) were different sets of religious groups and did not get along. At all. You can still a line on the maps between the Old Colony and Bay Colony territory. The Bay colony was were most of the trouble with the natives began, so fuck Boston.
Yes, the local Wampanoag approached the pilgrims because they wanted the English (and their guns) on their side because they were fighting wars with other tribes at the time. The entire native population of the New England coast had been decimated by an epidemic 4 years prior to the arrival of Pilgrims. When they landed on Cape Cod they found unburied skeletal remains of those that didn't survive. They dug up existing graves and stores of food because they were out, at one time digging up the corpse of a woman and child who had blond hair. (No explanation for that.) They eventually landed at 'new plimoth' (what John Smith had labeled the Wampanoag village of Patuxet.) It was a nice little harbor with drinkable water and cleared land. The entire village had died in the epidemic (which was likely spread by European fishermen and traders.)
One settler killed herself by jumping off the Mayflower and drowning upon arrival in the New World. The pilgrims labeled her suicide an 'accident' so her soul wouldn't be condemned to hell for eternity. That first winter the Pilgrims were so afraid of the Wampanoag finding out that they were sick and dying that they propped the dead bodies up against trees to make them appear to be standing guard. They were buried in unmarked graves in Cole's hill, where over the next two hundred years the bones occasionally washed out and were interned in a stone sarcophagus at the top of the hill. The myth of Plymouth Rock is equally as weird, and mostly involves a drunken men's club.
The only time turkey is mentioned in "Of Plimoth Plantation" is as FOLLOWS:
And after ye time of ye writīg of these things befell a very sadd accidente of the like foule nature in this govermente, this very year, which I shall now relate. Ther was a youth whose name was Thomas Granger; he was servant to an honest man of Duxbery, being aboute 16. or 17. years of age. (His father & mother lived at the same time at Sityate.) He was this year detected of buggery (and indicted for ye same) with a mare, a cowe, tow goats, five sheep, 2. calves, and a turkey. Horrible [249] it is to mention, but ye truth of ye historie requires it. He was first discovered by one yt accidentally [475]saw his lewd practise towards the mare. (I forbear perticulers.) Being upon it examined and com̅itted, in ye end he not only confest ye fact with that beast at that time, but sundrie times before, and at severall times with all ye rest of ye forenamed in his indictmente; and this his free-confession was not only in private to ye magistrats, (though at first he strived to deney it,) but to sundrie, both ministers & others, and afterwards, upon his indictmente, to ye whole court & jury; and confirmed it at his execution. And wheras some of ye sheep could not so well be knowne by his description of them, others with them were brought before him, and he declared which were they, and which were not. And accordingly he was cast by ye jury, and condemned, and after executed about ye 8. of Septr, 1642. A very sade spectakle it was; for first the mare, and then ye cowe, and ye rest of ye lesser catle, were kild before his face, according to ye law, Levit: 20. 15. and then he him selfe was executed. The catle were all cast into a great & large pitte that was digged of purposs for them, and no use made of any part of them.
Not all of the native population was killed in King Philip's war. Just most of it. Many natives were shipped off to Jamaica into slavery. Communities of 'praying indians' survived. Large portions of the town were still owned by Wampanoag interests until 1870 when the State made a proclamation that all natives were Massachusetts residents and had the rights to do whatever with their land. Disenfranchised for generations most chose to sell large portions to pay off debts.
Plymouth, today, tries to use Thanksgiving as an opportunity to promote multicultural exchanges and community togetherness. History is fascinating. My hometown is beautiful, and complicated, and weird.
It might surprise people outside of Plymouth to learn that the town itself has been trying to educate people on the history of the time as a whole, but people are still going to believe whatever mythological story was built up around it.
For one, it's amazing there was relative peace for 50 years before King Philips war occurred. The Plymouth colony and Bay colony (Boston) were different sets of religious groups and did not get along. At all. You can still a line on the maps between the Old Colony and Bay Colony territory. The Bay colony was were most of the trouble with the natives began, so fuck Boston.
Yes, the local Wampanoag approached the pilgrims because they wanted the English (and their guns) on their side because they were fighting wars with other tribes at the time. The entire native population of the New England coast had been decimated by an epidemic 4 years prior to the arrival of Pilgrims. When they landed on Cape Cod they found unburied skeletal remains of those that didn't survive. They dug up existing graves and stores of food because they were out, at one time digging up the corpse of a woman and child who had blond hair. (No explanation for that.) They eventually landed at 'new plimoth' (what John Smith had labeled the Wampanoag village of Patuxet.) It was a nice little harbor with drinkable water and cleared land. The entire village had died in the epidemic (which was likely spread by European fishermen and traders.)
One settler killed herself by jumping off the Mayflower and drowning upon arrival in the New World. The pilgrims labeled her suicide an 'accident' so her soul wouldn't be condemned to hell for eternity. That first winter the Pilgrims were so afraid of the Wampanoag finding out that they were sick and dying that they propped the dead bodies up against trees to make them appear to be standing guard. They were buried in unmarked graves in Cole's hill, where over the next two hundred years the bones occasionally washed out and were interned in a stone sarcophagus at the top of the hill. The myth of Plymouth Rock is equally as weird, and mostly involves a drunken men's club.
The only time turkey is mentioned in "Of Plimoth Plantation" is as FOLLOWS:
And after ye time of ye writīg of these things befell a very sadd accidente of the like foule nature in this govermente, this very year, which I shall now relate. Ther was a youth whose name was Thomas Granger; he was servant to an honest man of Duxbery, being aboute 16. or 17. years of age. (His father & mother lived at the same time at Sityate.) He was this year detected of buggery (and indicted for ye same) with a mare, a cowe, tow goats, five sheep, 2. calves, and a turkey. Horrible [249] it is to mention, but ye truth of ye historie requires it. He was first discovered by one yt accidentally [475]saw his lewd practise towards the mare. (I forbear perticulers.) Being upon it examined and com̅itted, in ye end he not only confest ye fact with that beast at that time, but sundrie times before, and at severall times with all ye rest of ye forenamed in his indictmente; and this his free-confession was not only in private to ye magistrats, (though at first he strived to deney it,) but to sundrie, both ministers & others, and afterwards, upon his indictmente, to ye whole court & jury; and confirmed it at his execution. And wheras some of ye sheep could not so well be knowne by his description of them, others with them were brought before him, and he declared which were they, and which were not. And accordingly he was cast by ye jury, and condemned, and after executed about ye 8. of Septr, 1642. A very sade spectakle it was; for first the mare, and then ye cowe, and ye rest of ye lesser catle, were kild before his face, according to ye law, Levit: 20. 15. and then he him selfe was executed. The catle were all cast into a great & large pitte that was digged of purposs for them, and no use made of any part of them.
Not all of the native population was killed in King Philip's war. Just most of it. Many natives were shipped off to Jamaica into slavery. Communities of 'praying indians' survived. Large portions of the town were still owned by Wampanoag interests until 1870 when the State made a proclamation that all natives were Massachusetts residents and had the rights to do whatever with their land. Disenfranchised for generations most chose to sell large portions to pay off debts.
Plymouth, today, tries to use Thanksgiving as an opportunity to promote multicultural exchanges and community togetherness. History is fascinating. My hometown is beautiful, and complicated, and weird.
"Where ever humans reside there is an awful story to tell."
Should be obvious enough. Please read
Lakota vs the Anishnabe, Lakota vs the Pawnee, Omaha war parties, Algonquine vs Lakota tribes, etc. What they're pointing out is that there were wars before the fights that occured during the European invasion. There were tribes that took POWs and used them as slaves even, depending on where they were in the country. The Omaha were known by other tribes for being seen as more violent.
I wanted to learn more about what I can actually do for Native Americans, so far this site seems like a good start:
Anyone have any other resources to share?
Anyone have any other resources to share?
My Grandmother is full Cherokee and armed with that knowledge I tried to trace my family all the way back and ended right at the Trail of Tears. We still do it big for thanksgiving as the holiday is far past its origins however I 100% respect and understand the tragedies that had befallen the elders.
What thread are you in? Almost everyone in here is pro-Thanksgiving.
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The people getting real defensive are telling on themselves LOL.
I don't like that they still teach that dumb myth in school. I just gave my boy the "See son, what had happened was..." talk earlier today.
The Natives weren't innocent
These migrants aren't angels
I can't wait for "c'mon man, let's not pretend Iraqis got along with each other" , when GWB is mentioned in the near future.
I don't like that they still teach that dumb myth in school. I just gave my boy the "See son, what had happened was..." talk earlier today.
Mike Brown was no angel
The Natives weren't innocent
These migrants aren't angels
I can't wait for "c'mon man, let's not pretend Iraqis got along with each other" , when GWB is mentioned in the near future.
Why would real historical information get in the way of your enjoyment? I'm still doing the whole Thanksgiving dinner myself as it's one of only two holidays I get off work lol.
That was Boston. The Plymouth settlers had their own beliefs that were sometimes harsher and less harsh than the Boston puritans. (Plus like, half the settlers were just crazy people trying to get out of England.)
I'm not putting down people who don't solemnly bow their heads and shed a tear. I know that's not realistic. If I celebrated Thanksgiving, I'm sure I wouldn't normally give a thought to historical context, but that's not something to boast about.
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Wow, so antagonistic just because someone asked people to think about real history for a moment and how it affected the indiginous people.
People got really defensive, really fast here. For a moment it looked like Gamefaqs took over here.
Weird as fuck. Not as weird as those trying to gloat about it though ("I'll have my thanksgiving and enjoy it thank you very much").
I guess chicken really drive some people mad.
Weird as fuck. Not as weird as those trying to gloat about it though ("I'll have my thanksgiving and enjoy it thank you very much").
I guess chicken really drive some people mad.
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I'm a bit surprised how racist some are in this thread. Plenty here can celebrate their food day without being upset that they were informed about what really happened. A few though are really showing what they are really about.
Again, what is the relevance in a thread about Thanksgiving?
And show me where peoples' condemnation of America's colonialist history is paired with this strawman notion of "Native cultures never engaged in warfare".
Who in this thread is upset about the information, much less is being racist?
I think it would be more accurate to say the HISTORY of Thanksgiving is problematic, as the holiday itself in modern times rarely if ever has anything to do with the history. People gather to "give thanks" at most, and just eat food together as a family for the most part.
This is why people in this thread are getting defensive.
Calling people racist because reasons is embarrassing.
And? Because there is literally no one going "THEY NEVER HAD WAR BEFORE", which makes you bringing that argument to the table sound incredibly suspect in a thread about the history of Native American genocide.
This is a thread detailing the gross history behind Thanksgiving. I outlined how there is a gross history behind anything attributed to or concerning humans. This includes, holidays and the founding of countries. New territory for instance is usually a product of a devastating war.
I was outlying out Thanksgiving is yet again sadly another example and we have plenty others. Tradition and holidays don't have to always find commonality with the root of its existence because at the root is probably a dark story.