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Galactic conquest here we come?

  • Yes

    Votes: 71 24.4%
  • No

    Votes: 37 12.7%
  • ayy lmao

    Votes: 183 62.9%

  • Total voters
    291
I've always thought that there might be some sort of subtle problem with the von neuman machine idea. Like the actual programming for a machine complex enough to use any available materials to make a sufficiently perfect copy of itself, can't really be proofed against error to the point where it won't break down over the course of a hundred thousand years. That any previous attempts to create such a device have failed after a few thousand iterations or something.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,414
I think trying to come up with a reason for a civilization to want to colonize a galaxy can be a bit of a fools errand. If a civ is really capable of sending stuff to other stars they have technology and energy capacities that we would have trouble imagining.

Also best we can tell, there is no way of traveling faster than light. Which means a galactic civilization would probably be extremely decentralized. If a message from the home world takes 1000 years to get to you, are you really apart of the same society? Worlds would diverge faster than a central authority could keep them together.

You don't need to decentralize or even leave your home system.
In our solar system alone, we can pack trillions. TRILLIONS of people in the system and support them. With Dyson Swarms and O'Neill Cylinders, this is nothing.
for your outward expansion, you will use self-replicating Drones (Von-Neumann-Probes) who can have an outpost in every solar system of the Milky Way in a few million years, sending the first material back in the first few decades after launching them.

Without the technological means to travel stars faster than light, the final goal of a civilization would be to "transcend" into an unending Virtual Reality, for groups of people or loners, that are tailor-made designed to the specifics of every person, while the physical body is in suspended animation and held alive for as long as possible.

The only reason to colonize other systems with people is to spread your civilization to not get wiped out by a freak circumstance.
 

mentok15

Member
Dec 20, 2017
7,461
Australia
Yes, and now name me a single species or civilization that has been around for one billion years.
No one really considering this properly thinks it will be a single species or empire colonising the galaxy. I think the word "conquer" is throwing people off. Colonising the galaxy would be like how life "conquered" the Earth.

I hope if aliens come down they're like "You thought WHAT?! ..... That we were going to invade you?! Why the heck would we want to do that, there's nothing to gain from doing that, we're so shocked you'd even consider that!" [clutches pearls]

All our scenarios about extraterrestrial life are about invading and war, probably because that's all Earth's shitty history has ever been about and continues to be. Imagine a whole load of civilisations who either never did that or got over it millions of years ago.
Fermi paradox isn't about invasion of us currently. It's asking why Aliens didn't colonise the solar system while dinosaurs were still walking around. Like this says it would take 1 billion to take over the galaxy, technological civilisations could have existed already for multiple times that amount.

I've always thought that there might be some sort of subtle problem with the von neuman machine idea. Like the actual programming for a machine complex enough to use any available materials to make a sufficiently perfect copy of itself, can't really be proofed against error to the point where it won't break down over the course of a hundred thousand years. That any previous attempts to create such a device have failed after a few thousand iterations or something.
If you have machines that can self replicate but not perfectly, you have natural selection. Which is a scary thought as you'r going to then have ones that multiply faster than the original be successful.
 

ChubbyHuggs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,262
Even 1 billion years seems like a gracious estimate since it all seems contingent on the ability to just colonize any planet.
 

smurfx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,628
only A.I will have the patience to do this. perhaps in the very far future A.I ships are going around habitable planets and planting human and animal seeds. then again perhaps super smart A.I will cut the humans out of the equation and conquer the galaxies they can get to just because they can.
 

Hrodulf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,348
The only good part about an alien invasion is that Jeff Bezos would go "I know so much about humanity, I can help you" and then Emperor Zrgrgrgrzz would say "your services are not required" and disintegrate him.
Wow, I can't believe people on this site would wish bad things on Bezos. Sure, he's made billions off of the backs of his overworked employees with shitty working conditions, but have some civility.

/s, for anyone who needs it
 

Kelsdesu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,483
1000
I certainly hope we grow out of this nonsense before we go interstellar.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,407
Only 10% of the entire time of the universe so far?

How quickly could evolution be speedrun to a spacefaring race? I'm assuming even under perfect conditions, it would take a couple of billions of years for a star to form and a suitable planet to emerge from debris.

But yeah, something that had the good luck to evolve 10% quicker than us may have had a billion years to conquer, but then again that particular lifeform maybe also got itself destroyed.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,245
Yh, to assume that other life-forms would exhibit the same colonial tendencies is ignorant.

It only takes one civilization to have a motive for expansion in order for this to occur. It doesn't matter whether you consider it "colonialism" or not. Unlike Earth's contintents most stars will be empty. There could be 999 civilizations in the Milky Way that stick to their solar system, but if 1 is expansionist then they concievably could have an outpost in every star system by now, given self replication and the age of stars. Life could easily have arisen billions of years before ours did.
 

Biske

Member
Nov 11, 2017
8,290
Conquering a galaxy eh... I guess if you are roughly talking about what we would have to refer to as humanity having conquering the galaxy that would fit.

Certainly wouldn't be the same people or government or group, even if they tried to hold it all together such great distances and time, it would be like saying humanity has conquered the earth with one global government... good luck. But on the scale of 1 billion years the starting humans would sure as fuck not recognize the 500 million year later humans.

Reminds me of science fiction universes like C. J. Cherryh Alliance-Union universe of books where shit spreads out and gets fuuucking weird. An easy entry is "Alliance Space: Merchanter's Luck/40,000 in Gehenna" where the stories delve into multi generational colony ships or colonizing a planet after many generations and the changes that happen.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
In sci Fi you always see these whole things about precursor races or ancient races full of technology.

The fact we havent seen or heard any of that shit makes me believe that, it's us. We are the first. I mean, some civilization has to be, why can't it be us?
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,458
I figure that any civilisation that lasted the timespans mentioned in this article would be subject to evolution and species diversification to the point of it no longer being a single civilisation.
 

mentok15

Member
Dec 20, 2017
7,461
Australia
How quickly could evolution be speedrun to a spacefaring race? I'm assuming even under perfect conditions, it would take a couple of billions of years for a star to form and a suitable planet to emerge from debris.
Life on Earth is at least 3.5 billion years old, maybe 4 billion. Multicellular maybe 2 billion, animals 660 million, 300 million for mammals. And we've had civilisation for 8k years while being around for 300k.
You could probably speed run it in ~1 billion if everything was perfect? Maybe? So if life started somewhere else the same time they could be 2.5-3 billion years ahead of us.
Even to give the time to do the 1 billion years to colonise the galaxy thing life there would only need to "develop" 25-30% faster, which is reasonable.

And this is just presuming they started at the same time, The universe has bee hospitable for life for a few billion years before it started here. Though for one point of us being the first is that the universe should be conductive to the formation of life for 1-10 trillion years, we are relatively early.
 
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Shodan14

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,410
I've always thought that there might be some sort of subtle problem with the von neuman machine idea. Like the actual programming for a machine complex enough to use any available materials to make a sufficiently perfect copy of itself, can't really be proofed against error to the point where it won't break down over the course of a hundred thousand years. That any previous attempts to create such a device have failed after a few thousand iterations or something.
There's no limit on the amount of error correction you can build in, it's just going to make it more complex.
 

Mavis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,477
Blue Mountains
The resource thing is particularly concerning because we need dead dinos to get to space, and we're also consuming said dinos at a rapid pace. With basically one company making any serious progress towards making humanity interstellar, while half the population squabbles about meaningless garbage like who said what on Twitter. The window is now. How about let's be the aliens that conquer the galaxy?
Oil and Gas do not come from dead Dinosaurs, they mostly come from plant matter that would occur naturally with or without an apocalyptic event.
 
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Actinium

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,800
California
It's important to remember the distances involved here, wherein the question of 'why haven't we seen them yet?' is probably just that it takes too long to see things. Its over 4 light years to the nearest solar system, over 25,000 to the next galaxy, so to see something in a telescope from that far away the information is already at least that many years old for the light to have traveled back to our eyeballs. The whole of recorded human history is only like 5,000 years old, there could be a civilization the next galaxy over that's 20,000 years older than us by the time we see the evidence that they're at our level, they could have been colonizing our celestial neighbor proxima centauri for the last 3 years and we wouldn't know yet, and if they could only observe neighboring systems by observing light same as us they wouldn't know we're here yet either. The light that makes up the images that will be an alien's first glimpse of our existence is already traveling to their methods of observation, but it could still be millions of years before we're seen. It's too abstract to bother dwelling on, we still need to figure out how to kill all the goblin sharks or what are we even doing, as a species?
 

Chasex

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,707
Oil and Gas do not come from dead Dinosaurs, they mostly come from plant matter that would occur naturally with or without an apocalyptic event.

Its just a common turn of phrase but yes not technically dead Dinos. Surprised at how many replies I got just in this topic lol
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,394
Life itself likes eternal growth and expansions, it's only outside forces that generally limit it.
I'm of the belief that once you've mastered technology to a point, you realize how pointless expansion is and instead turn inward. Unlock and digitize the soul to become a part of a massive species-wide collective inside an eternal digital heaven. Expansion in the physical space is generally only to acquire more resources anyways - once you figure that out who needs it anymore.
 

mentok15

Member
Dec 20, 2017
7,461
Australia
I'm of the belief that once you've mastered technology to a point, you realize how pointless expansion is and instead turn inward. Unlock and digitize the soul to become a part of a massive species-wide collective inside an eternal digital heaven. Expansion in the physical space is generally only to acquire more resources anyways - once you figure that out who needs it anymore.
I think that's relying on presuming all aliens would think like us. An alien evolutionary history could lead to something with a radically different cognition and outlook. So a more inward looking approach or living digitally might just not be appealing to some, or even occur to them. Like if you're already an immortal biological hive mind what even is turning inward? Or why even think of going digital?

And all it takes is for one species to be expansionistic and that's it if interstellar travel is possible. Maybe I'm too much a biologist or read too much pessimistic scifi, but if the galaxy is like an ecological niche there's going to be selective pressures and expansionistic species are going to outcompete the ones who aren't.
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,921
JP
In sci Fi you always see these whole things about precursor races or ancient races full of technology.

The fact we havent seen or heard any of that shit makes me believe that, it's us. We are the first. I mean, some civilization has to be, why can't it be us?

Because we screw things up so much there wouldn't be a precursor.
 

Twister

Member
Feb 11, 2019
5,111
Honestly, I think if there is intelligent life out there, it's probably pretty far away from us if we haven't seen it or come into contact by now.
We also assume that intelligent life on other planets has technology that far outpaces ours, but that may not be the case. If their galaxies/planets settled recently or at a simple timeframe to our own, then their technology may be at the same level or even behind ours.
 

Wubby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,872
Japan!
Wasn't that the story behind the Independence Day aliens? Just a long slow trip no warp? I never saw the sequel admittedly.

There was also an episode in Babylon 5 where they came across a pre-FTL earth ship that was drifting in space with the passengers in cryo (well one at least...). Their ship only launched a few years before the Centauri arrived and gave Earth jumpgate technology as well. Star Trek may have had a similar episode I wonder.
 

Dan Thunder

Member
Nov 2, 2017
14,145
ME: Sees headline and thinks "A modest amount of time, wow. What are we talking, a few hundred years at most?"

ME: Sees answer "........oh"
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
Honestly, I think if there is intelligent life out there, it's probably pretty far away from us if we haven't seen it or come into contact by now.
We also assume that intelligent life on other planets has technology that far outpaces ours, but that may not be the case. If their galaxies/planets settled recently or at a simple timeframe to our own, then their technology may be at the same level or even behind ours.
With the way light travels and works we could look at a far away planet that has intelligent life right now. But because we are technically looking into the past, we could have no idea.
 

butalala

Member
Nov 24, 2017
5,389
Star Trek may have had a similar episode I wonder.

I can think of two: Khan was originally found in a cryo sleeper ship with his followers, and there's another in early TNG where the crew finds a collection of popsicle people who wake up and do stereotypical 80s guy stuff like asking about their stock portfolios, which leads to a lot of preachy stuff about humanity evolving, etc.
 

Cats

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,929
While questions about how a sub-FTL civilization could maintain order throughout the galaxy are interesting, I think it's stranger that there isn't any evidence of self-replicating machines having spread throughout the cosmos eons ago. Even without approaching the speed of light, simple machines designed solely to exploit resources to produce copies of themselves and spread to new areas aren't too far beyond our capabilities today (relatively speaking). Maybe they have and we just can't detect them yet.

Then again... maybe we're the von Neumann probes, and life itself was seeded on Earth to produce a spacefaring civilization.
Yeah this is what I'm thinking. It's ridiculously hard to get organic life to even unite over the most basic things on the same planet so conquering a galaxy following ideals set fourth millions of years ago to your ancestors doesn't seem really feasible. But machines are the perfect candidate for this type of strategy to blindly follow programming. It is completely possible to build such a machine with the right technology not too far off our own, so why hasn't it been detected by us yet?

That's the interesting question.
 

Piggus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,718
Oregon
After a billion years, you would think descendants of humans would look absolutely nothing like humans. And wouldn't we take loads of different evolutionary paths as we spread out to different planets? There would be loads of different looking aliens throughout the galaxy, but they'd be descended from humans. Very strange to think about.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,464
A billion years, except humanity barely lasted a few hundred thousand and are in the verge of causing our own demise, and even if we don't, we will have consumed many of the planets resources that would allow for such a intergalactic expansion beyond the point where it's feasible. No other lifeform on the planet has anywhere near the intelligence to even conceptualise moving toother planets, let alone doing it.

So yeah, I can answer why it hasn't happened.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,464
While questions about how a sub-FTL civilization could maintain order throughout the galaxy are interesting, I think it's stranger that there isn't any evidence of self-replicating machines having spread throughout the cosmos eons ago. Even without approaching the speed of light, simple machines designed solely to exploit resources to produce copies of themselves and spread to new areas aren't too far beyond our capabilities today (relatively speaking). Maybe they have and we just can't detect them yet.

Then again... maybe we're the von Neumann probes, and life itself was seeded on Earth to produce a spacefaring civilization.

Clearly the answer here is every civilisation has their own Stargate SG-1 which teaches them of the dangers of replicators and never lets society inbent them as a result.