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Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
What about disc support for games? This is interesting to me. Cerny made it seem like PS5 discs come on UHD which is great for data caps and bandwidth, but won't work on the older machines. Alternatively, if Xbox sticks with BD then you get one disc on all consoles but a lot of updates.
 

P40L0

Member
Jun 12, 2018
7,599
Italy
What about disc support for games? This is interesting to me. Cerny made it seem like PS5 discs come on UHD which is great for data caps and bandwidth, but won't work on the older machines. Alternatively, if Xbox sticks with BD then you get one disc on all consoles but a lot of updates.
Mandatory disc install on SSD on both I suppose.
 

Calverz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,586
If the the PS5 is going to run at the high clock speed and it's ever so often it dips a tiny percentage then why not just lower the clocks slightly and run them fixed. It seems like they really felt they needed to be able to market double digit TFs. I know that incredibly cynical but It's such a random clock speed. I bet the thing runs sun 10 TF more than they let on. Not that it makes much of a difference anyway but my theory from my ass is that they really wanted to hit 10+ for marketing purposes and played around with clocks. Totally from the ass though.
I would agree with this theory pal. 10+ sounds better than 9 when your comparing to 12.
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,065
First of all expect a much better hardware and full featured Ray Tracing
Let's get something out of the way - there is no "full featured hardware RT". Both GPUs have "Intersection accelerators", that's it, and people better get over it now if they expected more.
The software part is where we might actually see differences since noone is tied to any particular acceleration structure with traversal being in software (so no, BVH is NOT the only thing we'll see) and where innovation may happen longer term on either console.

Also those additional CUs were definitely put to work without any issues in the PS4
Define 'without issues' - because I've seen more than a fair share of graphs dealing with improving CU utilization with wider GPUs this gen. And there were many other parts of GPU with quite a bigger jump over X1 than the 40% TFlop rating difference.
Anyway - polygons 'are' getting smaller this gen, not bigger, so it's a valid question how utilization will evolve.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,477
Seattle
Frankly, they both look like absolutely beastly hardware worth of a generational leap. I can't wait to see actual games running on them, which is where it matters most and will tell us a lot about attention to detail in the designs that never shows up in a spec sheet.
 

leng jai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
15,117
What I'm most interested in is the 3D audio tech for the PS5, need more information in that and hows its going to be used.
 

MrPink

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,298
Right, but if PS5 games come on UHD then you will need separate discs for PS4/Pro.

If XSX games come on BD, then you won't have enough space for assets on all three consoles and will have big updates.

I think Sony is counting on the scenario of people going in reverse (buying a PS5 disc and then using on PS4) is going to be limited. I just wonder whether Sony will have a cross buy/smart delivery type system and in those cases, if you bought a PS4 disc, how will those PS5 upgrades work.
 

ManOfWar

Member
Jan 6, 2020
2,465
Brazil
One thing I know for sure: I'll be waiting far longer than I usually do to get a PS5 in order to see if the first units will melt.
 

M4xim1l1ano

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,094
Santiago, Stockholm, Vienna
Some thoughts..

price:
Both machine will be equal and I don't see 399 but 499. In a way, would the x difference of Xbox be worth an extra 100 more? I think MS could sustain landing at 499.
However, I think Lockhart will be revealed soon. 399 for Lockhart I could see but obviously a more aggressive move would be 299. 299 plus gamepass is quite a punch.

software:
I'm not talking about games but the software tricks of the machines. Granted, Sony didn't really reveal so much in that regard, the SSD seems to be their crown jewel here but I think it's stupid to downplay the clever software solutions MS is putting forward here. This time, it does sound more that "the whole MS" is on board behind Xbox.. and Yusuf Mehdis "we invented direct x" seems to be more valid this time.
So not only seems Xbox to deliver on the hardware but MS is making the machine more effecient thanks to the software solutions implemented.

my 2c
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,858
Let's get something out of the way - there is no "full featured hardware RT". Both GPUs have "Intersection accelerators", that's it, and people better get over it now if they expected more.
The software part is where we might actually see differences since noone is tied to any particular acceleration structure with traversal being in software (so no, BVH is NOT the only thing we'll see) and where innovation may happen longer term on either console.


Define 'without issues' - because I've seen more than a fair share of graphs dealing with improving CU utilization with wider GPUs this gen. And there were many other parts of GPU with quite a bigger jump over X1 than the 40% TFlop rating difference.
Anyway - polygons 'are' getting smaller this gen, not bigger, so it's a valid question how utilization will evolve.
Thanks for the insight, it seems like factual information is in short supply at the moment. It's definitely going to be interesting to see what the real world differences are at the beginning of the gen and a couple years into it.
 

dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,509
I just don't see game development budgets being feasible enough for the IO to make a significant difference in the mainstream. PC is a big market now too. This seems first party interesting like the cell was first party interesting.

Also, I assume we're dealing with 4K assets here, so I don't see how gpu and cpu wouldn't be a bottleneck. Just a lot of questions.
 

nizerifin

Member
Jun 9, 2018
177
I've seen quite a bit of negativity about the talk Cerny gave today, but it actually left me feeling happy/contented about what Sony is doing. It seems they've built a machine based on direct developer input; a machine that irons out many of the hardware issues we saw with the PS4. I'm not concerned with the PS5 being the most powerful console on the market, only concerned that the leap from PS4 is adequate, and it appears it is. If I was concerned with having the most power, I'd build a PC.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
Both look great. SSD - and optimised, hardware decompression backed SSD - will be an absolute game changer and almost make it like the consoles are playing giant cartridge games (because the entire game code is effectively addressable immediately). Not sure if ps5 difference will be that noticeable as most games will base on lowest common denominator for transfer speed which will be xsx (or even pc)

if ps5 can sustain those clocks on the APU for most games then the difference in overall performance should be negligible.

I like the idea of the new things on the ps5 controller but not sure how well they'll come through - cautiously optimisticDisappointed to not see gyro in the xsx controller - if it had been, that might have encouraged third parties to support more

Curious to hear more detail - does ps5 have VRS and mesh shaders? How performant is RT? How will all of these new features come together to improve engine performance
 

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,124
I am pretty darn impressed with what they have put together here. I also expect it to be cheapter than the XSX.

Gooner4life: people already explained that difference in RT simply scales with TF...it ain't as big a difference as you are making it seem.
 

tzare

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Catalunya
I doubt the SSD can match a legitimate performance increase in the CPU, As at a certain point nobody will literally be able to see the difference between those two speeds. I mean that already is fractions of seconds so we're never gonna be able to see that.

PS5 literally has to be cheaper or else they're gonna lose a lot of business.
Almost nobody will be able to see 15% difference in TF (which is the item with higher % difference, that being TF number,a difference much higher right now between both current gen consoles or even their refreshes) , unless we go to DF or pause the game and start pixel counting.

The other items, cpu and ram are around 10 maybe better? And not even sure since we don't know about smt on ps5 and ram configuration is only better on xsx for 2/3 of the whole amount.

And i doubt Sony went for such a high speed ssd tech to get 0 benefits compared to what is available on pc today (and what will XSX use)

So time will tell. The fact is Sony's approach is interesting, and some developers might find a creativeway to exploit that with ideas only can be done with such speedy ssd. And the fact is that MS approach is more or less 15% more powerful, and we already know what differences will that bring: a few fps more maybe or/and slightly better resolution. Oh, and not a tech guy, but also seems that using narrower and faster gpu it also has its own advantages over wider but slower. No idea what exactly though. I think both are closer that what these numbers may hint.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
Two thoughts

- delivery system : can a Blu-ray drive read one layer of a UHD disc or are they fundamentally different? Could maybe do a hybrid disc

- ps5 clocks. Maybe we have to wait a few years to hear if there are any back room stories but right now not much will stop conspiracy theories of Sony desperately over clocking a small chip to try and catch MS. The simpler reality though is more likely Sony had a different approach (narrow/fast) and this is reflected in their methods for cooling - emphasised in the presentation, and the way they're varying frequency.
 

Fezan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,274
Almost nobody will be able to see 15% difference in TF (which is the item with higher % difference, that being TF number,a difference much higher right now between both current gen consoles or even their refreshes) , unless we go to DF or pause the game and start pixel counting.

The other items, cpu and ram are around 10 maybe better? And not even sure since we don't know about smt on ps5 and ram configuration is only better on xsx for 2/3 of the whole amount.

And i doubt Sony went for such a high speed ssd tech to get 0 benefits compared to what is available on pc today (and what will XSX use)

So time will tell. The fact is Sony's approach is interesting, and some developers might find a creativeway to exploit that with ideas only can be done with such speedy ssd. And the fact is that MS approach is more or less 15% more powerful, and we already know what differences will that bring: a few fps more maybe or/and slightly better resolution. Oh, and not a tech guy, but also seems that using narrower and faster gpu it also has its own advantages over wider but slower. No idea what exactly though. I think both are closer that what these numbers may hint.
Sony approach is interesting but it won't be used much by 3rd parties. You will have series X with higher resolution, better RT and more stable frame rates. If they are priced similar you can be sure that more people will be attracted towards X. I am one of those people
 

ManOfWar

Member
Jan 6, 2020
2,465
Brazil
And i doubt Sony went for such a high speed ssd tech to get 0 benefits compared to what is available on pc today (and what will XSX use)

The issue I have with this is that it seems a ton of resources and effort on something that will simply be diluted on the console's library. Except for Sony's first party, I think developers will simply aim for the Xbox SSD. So, on the majority of games the PS5 will load 2 seconds faster while the Xbox will render at thigher resolutions and probably better FPS as well, not to mention effects and whatnot.

I think Sony went crazy on the wrong features. But, as you said, time will tell.
 

2Blackcats

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,053
Considering his changing tune since yesterday, this just feels like the whole "eSRAM will even it all out in multiplatform!" Xbox One arguments...

we know devs rock with TF and Xbox has a fantastic SSD above normal ones too, so the idea a super duper extra SSD will fix the gap in literally every other spec on games where we will be comparing is just nonsense vague talk.

I'm sure we Will love the exclusives but the issue is there's no sign devs will do special design based on the special PS5 SSD for games they're making on PC/Xbox too

Bad example, the eSRAM did even things out. Assuming you're talking about the slow RAM in Xbox Vs fast RAM in PS4.
 

MCD

Honest Work
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,754
Almost nobody will be able to see 15% difference in TF (which is the item with higher % difference, that being TF number,a difference much higher right now between both current gen consoles or even their refreshes) , unless we go to DF or pause the game and start pixel counting.

The other items, cpu and ram are around 10 maybe better? And not even sure since we don't know about smt on ps5 and ram configuration is only better on xsx for 2/3 of the whole amount.

And i doubt Sony went for such a high speed ssd tech to get 0 benefits compared to what is available on pc today (and what will XSX use)

So time will tell. The fact is Sony's approach is interesting, and some developers might find a creativeway to exploit that with ideas only can be done with such speedy ssd. And the fact is that MS approach is more or less 15% more powerful, and we already know what differences will that bring: a few fps more maybe or/and slightly better resolution. Oh, and not a tech guy, but also seems that using narrower and faster gpu it also has its own advantages over wider but slower. No idea what exactly though. I think both are closer that what these numbers may hint.

 

tapedeck

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,976
Someone was asking for the 'OG Leak' here it is..

m.imgur.com

Next Xbox mysterious leak

24305 views on Imgur: The magic of the Internet

I'd say pretty close other than PS5's TF's (says 8+), could've been bumped afterwards thus the really high clock speed, RAM it says 12 not 16, other than that..pretty on point for a leak that's so old. Who knows if this was just a bunch of lucky guesses but I'd wager not, too much was right on the money, and most importantly..KI2 for XSX!
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
Well, they said 'typical' use will be at that clock for 10.2 - because they 'typically' expect games won't have the kind occupancy that would incur a throttle.

My analogy when that was being talked about wa s when running something like aida64 to stress test when overclocking a PC. That saturates all cores/threads much more than regular workloads and generates more heat.

Sony may have profiling data or just experience that many game engines will typically not fully load all threads and CUs and therefore will run at full speed.

my guess would be that would apply in particular to multi platform games which is important as it means PS5 can stay closer in perceived performance for exactly those games that will be on both consoles and compared.

First party games are perhaps more likely to be 'troublesome' and force some small reductions in clock speed. But that's ok because you can't compare performance with that game in xsx becausebits
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
Sony approach is interesting but it won't be used much by 3rd parties. You will have series X with higher resolution, better RT and more stable frame rates. If they are priced similar you can be sure that more people will be attracted towards X. I am one of those people

17% difference might get you better res OR better fps OR better RT. Not sure it would stretch very far to AND all of those
 

DocH1X1

Banned
Apr 16, 2019
1,133
What's hugely apparent is Sony were developing a console for 2019 and Microsoft have developed a console for 2020, PS5 @ 10.24 Teraflops with 52 CU's would be fine with slower clocks, but ray tracing will be severely impacted by the disparity in CU's and unless they are $150 cheaper than Xbox Series X then they are dead out of the gate in my opinion.

I think it's certain this is Cerny's last PlayStation, the PS4 Pro was nerfed due to BC and now PS5 has been, it's unacceptable.
And the worst part of all of it is it's a half baked back compat effort....
 

No_Face

Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,080
Brigerbad, Switzerland
What's hugely apparent is Sony were developing a console for 2019 and Microsoft have developed a console for 2020, PS5 @ 10.24 Teraflops with 52 CU's would be fine with slower clocks, but ray tracing will be severely impacted by the disparity in CU's and unless they are $150 cheaper than Xbox Series X then they are dead out of the gate in my opinion.

I think it's certain this is Cerny's last PlayStation, the PS4 Pro was nerfed due to BC and now PS5 has been, it's unacceptable.
Where the hell does this talk come from? I'm legit dumbfounded. We are talking about a 15-20% difference in teraflops here. Nothing compared to ps4/one and pro/x. And the ps5 sports a super advanced SSD solution that goes well beyond what we see even in high-end pc's. How would that amount to a whopping 150$ price difference? These machines are way closer than ps4/one.
 

Scottoest

Member
Feb 4, 2020
11,326
At this point I think that the 9.2TF leak was probably reflective of the PS5's specs several months ago, but then they radically upclocked the GPU to get it to where it is now - maybe in response knowledge of the XSX, maybe not. 2.23GHz is definitely not what anyone here expected for the GPU.

I also think this might be why we haven't seen the box yet. They may have had to readdress the thermal profile of the console as a result of the hav to finally

Just a theory. I'm so happy to finally have the endless speculation behind us.