Show runner of cancelled Netflix show talks about how Netflix only wants to renews shows that viewers immediately binge

[Strings]

Yeah, this is unfortunately just the reality of producing content for streaming services and it stinks. If you're not attracting new subscribers, then they feel they're better off investing in something that could. Much different than the old model where every channel needed to maintain a stable collection of consistent hitters.

 

[RedHeat]

After being burned by the cancellation of I Am Not Okay with This, The Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance, The Society, Santa Clarita Diet, Tuca and Bertie, Glow, and a bunch of others, I'm basically just treating the service as a "pop in for 10 seconds" type of deal or if something in particular gets over-hyped on social media-- it's not worth getting invested in the smaller stuff.

 

[DanGo]

To some extent. There are definitely some shows that would have probably been better served either with a much shorter, British television-esque season of like 3 episodes, or just a movie, but I don't agree that "bingable" as a whole is a negative. It's just bad to make that seemingly your sole focus.

For example someone earlier brought up Midnight Mass. There is a certain element of theorizing there but I still think it's better viewed as a kind of whole, like a gigantic continuous movie that you get immersed in.

For older shows that I think are better binged, I'd go with shows like The Wire or Babylon 5. Those are kind of more literary just in terms of structure, where each episode so clearly feeds into the next like a chapter, and to a greater extent than the typical episodic/serialized split. Obviously those are uniquely high quality shows but I think the basic point stands.

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Well, you did initially reference shows where "there isn't a whole lot to individual episodes." Maybe I'm reading that more unfavorably than you meant, but I would never say something like The Wire didn't have much going on in individual episodes. I watched that weekly and it was incredibly engaging. If I can describe a show has a collection of episodes where not a lot really happens, it probably means it's failed to do anything worthwhile. Netflix's bet (and again, other platforms are guilty of this as well, but to lesser degrees) is that they can dump more disposable content out there and people will be satisfied enough with mediocrity because they think 'oh, that wasn't so good, but the next episode is right there so I might as well watch' but would otherwise likely drop it. Whereas with a weekly release schedule, there's more pressure to produce high quality engaging storytelling that maintains the audience's interest without instantaneous pseudo-satisfaction. And at the end of the season, people who desperately want to only binge stuff still have the option!

All distribution methods ultimately have their advantages and disadvantages, especially in conjunction with the realities of business, but Netflix makes it clear that they value one and only one viewing method and it has no regard for storytelling technique, artistic merit, or satisfying audiences in meaningful ways. It's unbalanced and unhealthy for the medium.

 

[Zeliard]

Well, you did initially reference shows where "there isn't a whole lot to individual episodes." Maybe I'm reading that more unfavorably than you meant, but I would never say something like The Wire didn't have much going on in individual episodes. I watched that weekly and it was incredibly engaging. If I can describe a show has a collection of episodes where not a lot really happens, it probably means it's failed to do anything worthwhile. Netflix's bet (and again, other platforms are guilty of this as well, but to lesser degrees) is that they can dump more disposable content out there and people will be satisfied enough with mediocrity because they think 'oh, that wasn't so good, but the next episode is right there so I might as well watch' but would otherwise likely drop it. Whereas with a weekly release schedule, there's more pressure to produce high quality engaging storytelling that maintains the audience's interest without instantaneous pseudo-satisfaction. And at the end of the season, people who desperately want to only binge stuff still have the option!

All distribution methods ultimately have their advantages and disadvantages, especially in conjunction with the realities of business, but Netflix makes it clear that they value one and only one viewing method and it has no regard for storytelling technique, artistic merit, or satisfying audiences in meaningful ways. It's unbalanced and unhealthy for the medium.

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The Wire wasn't meant to be an example of a show where there isn't much going on in a single episode; it's all incredibly dense and there is plenty going on at any given time. I'm just saying I think that's an example of a pre-streaming show where watching several episodes consecutively is maybe a better way to go about it. It's sort of intentionally built that way.

Again I bring up the literary comparison because shows like that are structured that way. I think it's particularly pronounced in The Wire because each season focuses very specifically on a certain setting; each season really is like its own novel.

I do think releasing an entire season at once can hurt some shows. But then I also wonder, we're so inundated with so many shows and other distractions that it's hard to even get a Lost these days. Game of Thrones was a relatively recent phenomenon but also an incredible rarity, a show that everyone was focusing on. It's harder and harder to get that as time goes on. I brought up Westworld earlier cause I think that's the last show to really do that, and even then, just the first season.

Look at shows like Servant, or maybe better yet, Severance. They're released week to week. They're mysterious and prime for discussion. Severance in particular is widely acclaimed.

But you can even see it from the threads for those shows here, or reddit, or probably anywhere. There isn't a lot going on in terms of discussion. There are just too many damn shows for any large portion of the audience to focus on any single one.

So places like Netflix just release them in a bunch to be binged in a couple lazy weekends, because it probably doesn't make a huge difference to them as far as audience participation. I do agree with you that this ultimately affects the quality of the shows we get, but I don't know if it can be helped. There's just too much out there now.

 

[CamberGreber]

It sucks as US subscriber to realize they dont give a shit what we like. :(

 

[squeakywheel]

They're the Google of media. Why should I invest my time to watch a new series if they just end up cancelling before the planned ending?

 

[Dalek]

It sucks as US subscriber to realize they dont give a shit what we like. :(

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Agreed. It's almost insulting. Why am I paying for this again?

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Netflix's cancellations and non-renewals are slowly getting them to being the Google of television production. No one will have faith in their new series because the expectation is that literally everything that's not an immediate runaway success will be scrapped.

They're the Google of media. Why should I invest my time to watch a new series if they just end up cancelling before the planned ending?

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lol, what I get for only skimming a few posts before posting.

 

[Saifu]

Basically if your show is not a Squid Game or an Arcane, you're fucked.

 

[Brat-Sampson]

Damn two things depressing in the OP. First this show which I've never seen but got great reveiws and people love it got canceled which sucks… But also it got more views then succession… I'm probably the biggest succession fanboy and think everyone should watch it!!

Honestly insane they would cancel it tho when it gets more views then one of HBO's biggest franchises currently.

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It's the difference between HBO caring about their prestige / pedigree and seeing themselves as a seal of quality, and Netflix just chasing the next Big Hit at any cost, throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. If you don't make it HUGE they might as well just fund 10 other new things that might.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

You would think this will eventually hurt Netflix.

You are less likely to try new shows if there is a high likelihood of it being cancelled and left unfinished.

What is a back catalogue of incomplete shows really worth? If a show is finished and didn't have a chance to close off threads in a reasonable way I doubt I would start it.

I prefer the binge model but I am not always in the mood to watch the particular show as soon as it drops.

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It's even more shortsighted given that competing platforms have siphoned off so much of their licensed 3rd party content, so they're increasingly dependent on internally produced content to build their library. When you have Disney+ and HBO Max with catalogs reaching close to a century in length, a decade of half-finished shows isn't exactly compelling. Eventually they're going to reach a point where they realize they need both engaging new content AND a worthwhile back-catalog, and it'll be far too late to for the latter.

 

[krae_man]

Seems like it is mostly related to do with "Oh you want more money? Well you're cancelled. Learned your lesson for next time?"

Hell Altered Carbon's entire premise was "Don't get a big head because we can replace you with literally anybody".

It would be nice for a TV show I like on a streaming service to go 10+ seasons. But I don't see a show that goes 10 seasons even starting anytime soon.

 

[AlteredBeast]

Before I clicked I knew it would be Rachel Shukert. My wife went to high school with her in Omaha and I've randomly followed her on Twitter and Facebook for years now, well before Glow was a thing. She definitely has lots of valid opinions and feelings about her time working on shows for Netflix. Damn shame about her adaptation of Babysitter's Club. It's absolutely wonderful. She also did a great job on Glow which also got cancelled.

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Did your wife go to Central,too? Lol I am class of 02, graduated with Ariel, her younger sister (I think)

 

[Deleted member 10780]

So I guess fuck those of us that have jobs and a family and can't sit there binging a whole season anymore.

I take it that means Netflix is a huge supporter of universal basic income and have been lobbying to achieve that.

 

[The Chosen One]

We have faced this exact problem in my own household. There are shows for kids. And then there are shows for adults. There are barely any shows made today that the entire family can watch together. There's no "transition" period shows.

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I had the same issue a few years ago. Basically Lost in Space was the only show that the "whole family" could watch together without being bored, confused, or uncomfortable.

With the demise of Network TV, it's just about making TV shows for market silos. They assume no one watches TV together anymore.

I think it's partly why the Marvel movies are so popular because it's literally the only content out there that the "whole family" can watch.

 

[apocat]

I have not seen the show in question, but "bingeable" is a pretty awful standard to aim for with your productions. This snake will eat itself.

 

[Dice]

After being burned by the cancellation of I Am Not Okay with This, The Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance, The Society, Santa Clarita Diet, Tuca and Bertie, Glow, and a bunch of others, I

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fuuuuuuuuuuuuck. RIP fair shows.

 

[gforguava]

What is a back catalogue of incomplete shows really worth? If a show is finished and didn't have a chance to close off threads in a reasonable way I doubt I would start it.

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I've often wondered how many people have watched Netflix's Marco Polo since it was cancelled. That was a show I didn't watch but I might've at some point...if it had a real ending.

Netflix's approach seems so backwards, with streaming you should want everything(even the stuff you cancel) to be 'complete' because, unlike broadcast TV, it lives on your service forever.


Netflix also has a big problem with competing with itself. Between January 27-28 they released:

• All Of Us Are Dead
• Chosen
• Feria
• In From the Cold
• The Orbital Children
• The Woman in the House Across the Street from the Girl in the Window

Their own system of delivering content makes binging unworkable if you are actually interested in said content. I like a lot of what Netflix puts out but I just can't watch in anything resembling a timely manner.

I was the rare sort who was loving their Cowboy Bebop, I found out it was cancelled before I got to episode 5.

 

[Montresor]

Netflix has very few top tier shows compared to the gargantuan amount of mediocre content they release.

Off the top do my head, I can only think of Ozark, Squid Game and Stranger Things as top tier shows from them that are currently active (with episodes upcoming).

HBO on the other hand seems to have a way higher proportion of really, really good content.

 

[KeRaSh]

Netflix seems like they don't know what they want themselves.
Why do they only want shows that people binge? Wouldn't it be better for them if it took people longer to get through their shows to increase subscriber retention? That's the reason why they have shows that air new episodes weekly instead of just dumping them all out at once.

 

[Glasgow Mega-Snake]

I'm worried as fuck about The Sandman. Seems like it will be cancelled after two seasons and we won't see a full adaptation.

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People excited about The Sandman should probably look into the audio book adaptation, no way they get to adapt the whole thing at Netflix

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Neil Gaiman is huge right now. I mean, we just had Good Omens and American Gods as shows, now there's Sandman as Audible series AND on Netflix, there's apparently an Anansi Boys series coming, and also Good Omens season 2

These shows Netflix likes to cancel after 1-2 seasons tend to be in the "successful in their niche, but not a big hit" range. Getting the whole thing is maybe doubtful, but I'd say Sandman has a good chance for a decently long run

(I know American Gods was cancelled by Starz, but there was a lot of drama around the show long before that)

 

[caliph95]

After being burned by the cancellation of I Am Not Okay with This, The Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance, The Society, Santa Clarita Diet, Tuca and Bertie, Glow, and a bunch of others, I'm basically just treating the service as a "pop in for 10 seconds" type of deal or if something in particular gets over-hyped on social media-- it's not worth getting invested in the smaller stuff.

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Jesus so many great shows gone
Still mad about glow

 

[ClamBuster]

still angry they couldn't have given the OA a send off... even a feature length finale

 

[Lotus]

If all these services care about is making us binge, why do they keep releasing shows episode by episode over the weeks rather than dumping them all at once

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Only Netflix is still pressed about the binge model. Everyone else either moved on to weekly, or is flexible in how they dole out the episodes (some released all at once, some shows release 2-3 episodes each week, etc.)

 

[Mathieran]

Is the show still worth watching or they leave it off in a cliffhanger that makes you regret watching it? I saw one episode and then just forgot about it, but I liked it

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I've seen worse cliffhangers. The show's so good I would still watch it.

 

[Hrodulf]

I wonder if the future of Netflix shows are one and done seasons, like Midnight Mass.

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At this point, they might as well be with how the service treats their content. They are just solidifying themselves as a poor fit for creators who want to make shows spanning more than 1–3 seasons.

 

[Ronnie Poncho]

The irony of it is that this approach will lead to fewer bingers. Why put time into a show when it's going to be cancelled after 2 seasons?

 

[Mekanos]

Yeah, it's been clear for a while that Netflix has basically hit peak saturation in the US and their focus right now is expanding into overseas territories to capture audiences there - which worked for Squid Game, at least. They are coasting on brand recognition, but as streaming services like D+ and HBO Max build up an audience I can't help but wonder if they're gonna start feeling the squeeze. I only really watch their big flavor of the month shows since they get talked about, meaning I'm aware of them; their more obscure shows completely fly under my radar and I don't even bother trying to search them out.

 

[antispin]

I'm still salty about Santa Clarita Diet.

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There are two of us!

 

[Qikz]

Netflix basically run entirely by algorithm at this point,

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Unfortunately this is how the entire internet works now as well, at least the main sites. Everything is some kind of algorithm and is all shaped by clicks. It sucks.

 

[caliph95]

There are two of us!

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Three

 

[Valcrist]

Still annoyed that The OA and GLOW didn't get a proper ending.

 

[Mabase]

You would think Netflix would be more intelligent. They're so obviously shooting themselves in the foot in the long term. While Disney enjoys a century's worth of legacy content, Netflix' own series productions feel more and more like a mass-grave of unfinished experiments, that aren't even brought to a rounded conclusion.
Netflix has to understand that at some point in a business' life (and they are way past that point), user retention is as vital as new user acquisition.
And old business wisdom says one is usually much cheaper than the other.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

I'll never forgive them for cancelling American Vandal.

The fact that the show is still in the trending section 4 years after they cancelled it makes it so much worse as well.

 

[Dalek]

I had the same issue a few years ago. Basically Lost in Space was the only show that the "whole family" could watch together without being bored, confused, or uncomfortable.

With the demise of Network TV, it's just about making TV shows for market silos. They assume no one watches TV together anymore.

I think it's partly why the Marvel movies are so popular because it's literally the only content out there that the "whole family" can watch.

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You're right all around. This also applies to music too. I told my daughter that back in the 80s and 90s everyone listened to the same music. Nirvana one minute, Whitney Houston the next. Everyone had that shared experience of listening to the same music as a cultural touchstone. Then sometime in the 2000s music genres started getting siloed off. There seem to be fewer acts that have wide mainstream appeal.

 

[Steiner_Zi]

Central Park on Apple TV is very good. We are rewatching Ted Lasso, and although it has a couple of sexually suggestive scenes is pretty good for the family (my kids are 11 and 13).

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Sorry to break it to you but at that age your kids will not even be remotely blindsided by the "sexually suggestive scenes" in Ted Lasso...!

 

[Maligna]

I'll never forgive them (or CBC) for cancelling Anne With an E. Some shows are meant to be savored!

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Agreed!

 

[Glasgow Mega-Snake]

You would think Netflix would be more intelligent. They're so obviously shooting themselves in the foot in the long term. While Disney enjoys a century's worth of legacy content, Netflix' own series productions feel more and more like a mass-grave of unfinished experiments, that aren't even brought to a rounded conclusion.
Netflix has to understand that at some point in a business' life (and they are way past that point), user retention is as vital as new user acquisition.
And old business wisdom says one is usually much cheaper than the other.

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Yeah, especially with their binging strategy (and the wealth of series we have today) it seems so short-sighted.

With episodic shows it's fine if they just peter out and are cancelled, people can still check them out through word of mouth and not lose anything
Story-focused stuff without an ending, or just a never resolved cliffhanger? Nobody's going to bother, when there are so many other shows you could watch that have an actual conclusion

The least they could do is decide in advance that a show will be canceled, and give the creators one last season to wrap things up, even if it's shortened and rushed

 

[Tavernade]

Maybe they want a really big and diverse back catalog? Only thing that makes sense to me

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That's what I thought their goal was too, but if they keep cancelling shows prematurely, that back catalog isn't going to be that beloved, maybe? Like, if they'd goal is that eventually people subscribe for their old content, won't people get annoyed that so much of the old content is only a season or two or ends on a cliffhanger? If that was their goal they should be better at ensuring shows get wrap up movies/shortened final seasons after being cancelled.

 

[Messofanego]

There's so many bad things about Netflix for creators, like the absolute lack of marketing especially if there's a new season or withholding data in comparison to other shows. The only great thing is how much creative freedom given to them.

"Netflix also doesn't do a ton of marketing, and I think in season one, we were bizarrely helped by the pandemic — not because people were home in front of the TV but because our original release date got delayed. There were some dubbing issues in other countries; we were supposed to come out in May, and we wound up coming out in the first week of July, so there was a lot of press set up that had longer lead times, and people actually knew about the show before it came out.

A lot of times, Netflix things come out and for whatever reason, if the algorithm doesn't put it in front of you, no one knows it's on. I heard from so many people who loved season one that they didn't even know season two had come out. How is that possible? How does the algorithm not know that you watched and loved the entire first season and then immediately show season two to you? Why is this not getting in front of people that want to watch it?"

 

[Donepalace]

Sure, but I started watching X-files around season 4, so that's a pretty bad example to bring up.

I have watched several shows that I did enjoy on Netflix that were promptly cancelled after one season. With that track record, I'm not watching anything new on Netflix unless there are several seasons of it.

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Not really if the people who watched S1-4 decided not to watch you wouldn't have had a x files show to watch as it would have been cancelled

 

[Mabase]

Yeah, especially with their binging strategy (and the wealth of series we have today) it seems so short-sighted.

With episodic shows it's fine if they just peter out and are cancelled, people can still check them out through word of mouth and not lose anything
Story-focused stuff without an ending, or just a never resolved cliffhanger? Nobody's going to bother, when there are so many other shows you could watch that have an actual conclusion

The least they could do is decide in advance that a show will be canceled, and give the creators one last season to wrap things up, even if it's shortened and rushed

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This might be a stretch but I think these are the signs that Netflix sees itself, fundamentally, still as a "Silcon Valley" tech company instead of a film/TV studio:

- extreme focus on growth, measured via one arbitrary metric of "watched hours" (instead of sustainable profit, or *mild shock* amount of happy customers)
- extremely fast turnarounds, where a high-profile show like Cowboy Bebop gets cancelled WITHIN THREE WEEKS. (Let me breath for a second, for Christ's sake!)
- while still, after all these years, not quite understanding that much of the best movies and shows take years on years to make..
- ..and are a messy, creative process that can't be streamlined as easily as many other startup business models. (Concidentally, I think that's also the reason why most big Silicon Valley megacorps are so bad with videogames: cause they're not just technically and financially compleyx, but also creatively hyper-complex. Microsoft being the exception, after pumping billions into it for 20 years..)
- the steady belief in "their algorithm"..
- ...while underestimating the value of a legacy library of watchable, finished shows. Which is baffling, they should have learned that lesson when thridparties like Disney started pulling their shows from Netflix 5 years ago.
- lack of creative and cultural identity: caught between a place where they want to be for all audiences (but also, not really) and being a place that's the best for a specific kind of show. Disney+ being the no-brainer default subscription for family entertainment is SUCH a baffling contrast.

Netflix has long reached a new phase in their business, they need to adapt.

 

[Mabase]

Neil Gaiman is huge right now. I mean, we just had Good Omens and American Gods as shows, now there's Sandman as Audible series AND on Netflix, there's apparently an Anansi Boys series coming, and also Good Omens season 2

These shows Netflix likes to cancel after 1-2 seasons tend to be in the "successful in their niche, but not a big hit" range. Getting the whole thing is maybe doubtful, but I'd say Sandman has a good chance for a decently long run

(I know American Gods was cancelled by Starz, but there was a lot of drama around the show long before that)

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I hope you're right but I'm very cautious. Love Sandman to Death (lol!) but I can't see it running longer than three seasons if they remain faithful to the comics.

 

[JediEagle]

I can't binge stuff anymore...seriously. I watch an episode or two per evening. Heck.... I recently finished the last 3-4 episodes of Jessica Jones S3, because it was going away (s3 draaaaaagged). There are still shows that I marked as "might watch", but there's other stuff in life as well :D

 

[Caped Baldy]

I do seem to recall that coming up when MST3k was on Netflix, too. I remember the creators urging viewers to not just watch the episode, but watch them all back to back to back for that reason.

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Right, which, besides the turkey day marathon who has time for more than an episode at a time. Sucks too, because I felt like the chemistry really improved in the 2nd season.

 

[PeskyToaster]

I don't know how many times I have to say it, but binge culture is trash.

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there is no context where binging something is a good thing. not even air or water.

 

[spam musubi]

This might be a stretch but I think these are the signs that Netflix sees itself, fundamentally, still as a "Silcon Valley" tech company instead of a film/TV studio:

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I think there are some misconceptions here in your post.

- extreme focus on growth, measured via one arbitrary metric of "watched hours" (instead of sustainable profit, or *mild shock* amount of happy customers)

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Sustainable profit is really hard to measure because it takes years to see results. Growth is really easy to measure so it's easy to set as a goal. As for customer happiness, it's borderline impossible to measure especially when you are in so many different countries with different cultures. With such a broad user base you can't really get a good sense of that.

- extremely fast turnarounds, where a high-profile show like Cowboy Bebop gets cancelled WITHIN THREE WEEKS. (Let me breath for a second, for Christ's sake!)

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Cowboy Bebop isn't a good example because it was critically panned and aggressively clowned on by word of mouth while being super expensive to make. Probably one of their easiest cancellations.

- while still, after all these years, not quite understanding that much of the best movies and shows take years on years to make..

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Of course they understand this. They acquired a bunch of production companies and CGI studios for this. They understand it better than almost anyone in the industry.

- ..and are a messy, creative process that can't be streamlined as easily as many other startup business models. (Concidentally, I think that's also the reason why most big Silicon Valley megacorps are so bad with videogames: cause they're not just technically and financially compleyx, but also creatively hyper-complex. Microsoft being the exception, after pumping billions into it for 20 years..)

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I mean, they know it's messy and can't be streamlined, but they still want to streamline it as much as possible. It's hard to run a lean business when you depend on "messy" factors. That's what leads to crunch.

- the steady belief in "their algorithm"..

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Their algorithm is generally regarded as being the best out there in the industry. They're pioneers in many ways in that area. It does as good a job as any algorithm can do, and again, when you're in so many countries targeting so many different cultures with such a stupidly high volume of content, you have to have an algorithm, and it does a pretty good job given that.

- ...while underestimating the value of a legacy library of watchable, finished shows. Which is baffling, they should have learned that lesson when thridparties like Disney started pulling their shows from Netflix 5 years ago.

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I mean, those shows are kind of a licensing nightmare though. There is a finite supply of them and everyone is constantly battling to get them. See how many times something like Seinfeld has changed hands. And with post-2010 culture, you just don't have the same kind of cultural touchstone shows anymore. And again, remember that Netflix is a global company. They have a huge business in East Asia and Southeast Asia for example. They cater to those audiences too, and white American sitcoms don't play as well there.

- lack of creative and cultural identity: caught between a place where they want to be for all audiences (but also, not really) and being a place that's the best for a specific kind of show. Disney+ being the no-brainer default subscription for family entertainment is SUCH a baffling contrast.

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I mean, having an "identity" is just one way to have a content platform. Disney focuses on it because they have the library for it. Another strategy is just to have all kinds of things so that no matter what you're in the mood for, there's something "good enough" on your platform. That's a different strategy and in some ways doesn't have a cap on your potential audience like a "identity" platform. Disney just happens to be a special case because they own several of the biggest IPs of the world that have been cultivated for like half a century.

 

[RoninChaos]

You would think this will eventually hurt Netflix.

You are less likely to try new shows if there is a high likelihood of it being cancelled and left unfinished.

What is a back catalogue of incomplete shows really worth? If a show is finished and didn't have a chance to close off threads in a reasonable way I doubt I would start it.

I prefer the binge model but I am not always in the mood to watch the particular show as soon as it drops.

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Yup, this is the real question. What is the worth of all this investment if most shows are really disposable? Why does it matter if you have a shit ton of shows if most of them stop at 2 seasons and hardly any have a satisfying ending or any ending at all?

 

[Ernest]

Who the fuck has time to binge?

 

[Gwenpoolshark]

This sucks but


I also think network TV executives in the prestreaming era also pretty much operated like this.