Should/Will Naughty Dog use a new engine for PlayStation 5?

[TheRulingRing]

Yes. All of Sony's studios need to.

They all have this stylised cartoony look, especially when it comes to characters.

I don't want that, I want photorealism.

 

[Thera]

Of course not, especially if they stayed in the same type of games.

 

[EssCee]

Yes, every studio should just create a new engine every 3-4 years because why not /s

Naughty Dog has produced the best looking games of the last two generations using the engine they built during the PS3 era. I think they're clearly fine with what they have. They'll continue to refine and update - as many have mentioned, the ICE team is based out of Naughty Dog. Aka they have the best engine developers/programmers in SIE

 

[HMD]

Only thing I'm looking forward to in next gen ND games is correct lighting on intractable objects, they almost never match their environment's baked lighting.

 

[Crossing Eden]

This is "I don't know how engines work or even what they are" the thread.

Yes. All of Sony's studios need to.

They all have this stylised cartoony look, especially when it comes to characters.

I don't want that, I want photorealism.

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This isn't because of their engines, it's because of deliberate choices that they make when it comes to art direction.

 

[ToddBonzalez]

Maybe they'll be switching to GameMaker. Hotline Miami cameo in TLOU2 could have been a hint.

 

[wenis]

I mean, its not a should/will question. it's not even a question.

they're the largest first party brand both on a critical and player level. They have infinite (maybe even budget, but who knows what Sony allows in their budget, probably a lot at this rate) room to spend time on maximizing their pre-existing tech to go into the future and are probably already headlong into researching any viable update to their current engine, and taking advantage of having no appreciable date on their calendar to deliver another product anytime soon. They'll just do kinda whatever they want on an internal schedule and let Sony know when its time. They've earned that approach time and time again. Now if that leads to a healthy work/life balance, that's another issue (with a whole bunch of fun tie-ins to having "infinite" time).

 

[Deleted member 1003]

none of us work at naughty dog, how on earth would we know this

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Apparently many people here think they know better than the developers.

 

[Desmond]

Sony's ICE team is at Naughty Dog, I'm sure the engine they're using is quite refined.

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Which has always made me wonder why other studios didn't borrow it. ICE would have the know how to help a studio like Pixelopus for example.

I imagine the next Uncharted is running off and upgraded version of 4's.

 

[jett]

What for? What they have works incredibly well. They can just continually upgrade it. You think Epic started from scratch with UE5? :P

 

[Hojaho]

Apparently many people here think they know better than the developers.

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Welcome to the Internet. :P

 

[SonicFighterV]

When I see threads like this, it reminds me of how general audience sees game engines. They are not like a new software one creates or buys(unless you are actually using a third party game engine). Devs develop the internal engine, based on the hardware at hand, and how close to the vision they can create the said game. It's a more cohesive process than them saying, "PS5 is here, let's drop our old engine and build a new one". Game Engines are essentially a bunch of reusable components, tools and api to interface with a hardware to create their game. They evolve as tech evolves.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I feel like with the type of games Naughty Dog makes, that SSD is going to be hugely important for pushing insane levels of detail and diversity in their games.

But they just need to tweak their engine, I would imagine. It may be a substantial tweak, but they're not going to suddenly scrap everything.

 

[EVIL]

Yes. All of Sony's studios need to.

They all have this stylised cartoony look, especially when it comes to characters.

I don't want that, I want photorealism.

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That has very little to do with the engine and more to do with the art itself.

Their programmers know their engine trough and trough, it being a super stable platform for them to work on and they have been upgrading it every generation.
Building a new engine from scratch would take a ton of time and it wont stack up to a battle proven engine like they are using right now.

 

[Gobias-Ind]

I'm no developer, but this seems like one of those Gamer Questions that betrays a significant lack of knowledge. Setting aside the assertions in here that TLOU: Pt2 looks dated (WHAT), the idea that their games have to look a certain way "because the engine" is bizarre to me. Do you think the engine makes the art?

For the love of all that is holy, I hope they don't find some need to scrap everything they've built to this point. I would love to see another Naughty Dog game within the next five years, but I don't want to break any of their employees' backs to get it. It's just so strange to me to observe one of the best looking games ever made, which also happens to be as mechanically polished and pleasant to control as anything on the market, and think "ehhhh, engine's kinda dated, huh? Need to slap a new engine in this bad boy."

Maybe they should change the exhaust too.

 

[Falchion]

I don't even care what they do, they're so technically gifted as a studio that their games will look amazing regardless.

 

[Spork4000]

They'll upgrade the current one. Devs rarely make brand new engines these days. UE5 isnt even a full new engine from 4, more of a branding thing.

 

[Daxa]

I hope they fix that engine bug where platforms keep collapsing under the main characters.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Well number one an engine is more than a renderer. Number two there's no reason to take years and years of documentation, pipeline work, asset management, audio work, animation work, libraries worthof data and dump it all. Now you have 0 documentation, and whole teams who don't know what anything so basically everyone is starting from 0, bug hunting for problems that then have to be addressed, migrating all your assets over.

For what?

Also I can assure you Epic didn't do that for UE4 to UE5.

And most of the arguments in here for it are design choices not engine limitations

 

[BoxManLocke]

Yep they should totally hit the big red "switch engine" button at headquarters because a character model that you use for 5 minutes looks marginally less amazing than the others (while still looking better than most games' main protagonists).

Makes perfect sense to me

 

[JuanLatino]

i am not really tech expert, but i would assume the only reason ND would need a Engine Change is if they were planning to go into a completely new direction in terms of game design? like a open world game

 

[Unaha-Closp]

Their games have looked like Fire since Uncharted 2 and I thought they played pretty good for the style of games they make so I say no.

 

[Paz]

I read about 1/4 of this thread before I couldn't take anymore it was making me so frustrated.

TLDR: Internal company engines are not off the shelf engines, let them do whatever they think is best, it's highly unlikely they will need to scrap their entire pipeline for the differences between this and next gen to be maximized. Art styles choices are not engine limitations.

 

[Deleted member 1003]

Welcome to the Internet. :P

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I don't need a welcoming committee.

I'm the fella at the end of the bar muttering to himself.

 

[Hey Please]

Yes. All of Sony's studios need to.

They all have this stylised cartoony look, especially when it comes to characters.

I don't want that, I want photorealism.

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Yes, so cartoonish

DG photo courtesy of Sebmugi

 

[Triggerhappytel]

I don't know anything about firmware or game engines to give any kind of informed opinion, but from a laymen's perspective I'd say their engine seems pretty fucking outstanding already so there's not really any need to get a new one.

 

[Nooblet]

Yes, so cartoonish

DG photo courtesy of Sebmugi

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A lot of people may not be able to convey what they mean and hence use the term cartoony. While the term may be inaccurate, they are not wrong in that the artstyle is stylised.

And God of war is most definitely not going for a photoreal look. Infact Days Gone may be the only Sony first party exclusive this gen aside from Gran Turismo that goes for a photoreal artstyle.

 

[Hey Please]

God of war is most definitely not going for a photoreal look. Infact Days Gone may be the only Sony first party exclusive this gen aside from Gran Turismo that goes for a photoreal artstyle.

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True, but they surely are not what can be considered, "stylized cartoony". That rhetoric does not even fit ND games. The DONTNOD's story driven titles, like LiS series and the upcoming Tell Me Why as well as Arkane studio's titles, like PREY and Dishonored series are more befitting of that art aesthetic categorization.

And yes, I do concur with your second sentence.

 

[Olimar]

Engines are not just things you can hotswap. There are a ton of stories about how a mandatory switch to Frostbite really hamstrung a lot of development at EA, especially for BioWare.

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This is really one of the most understated comments in this thread. A good carpenter doesn't blame his tools. A great carpenter will specialize tools for the job, not to make it faster, but to do the best job with minimal work involved.

Looking back in retrospect, that policy almost ruined the EA brand entirely going into this generation: removal of all titles on Steam, forcing studios to use Frostbite to alleviate royalties, and succumbing to sequelitis. (An honorable mention goes to almost losing that Star Wars license with Battlefront 2, but I think gaming as a whole has a RMT issue that needs to be addressed.)

I'm glad that they eventually came to their senses and decided that picking the right tool for the job was the better outcome and let the developers have more freedoms in making the games.

Naughty Dog are pioneers of their craft and The Last of Us Part II is probably one of the best looking games this generation. If they feel they have to kick it up a notch for next-gen, I'm incredibly on-board with whatever they deliver. I'm glad though they had the freedom to execute their vision. Without that, we wouldn't have anything to look forward to.

 

[Penny Royal]

I'm going to go out on a limb with the scorching hot take that the ND and ICE team software engineers and technical artists know what they're doing over a fourm.

'But that's blind faith!' you may cry. I don't think my faith is misplaced.

 

[Pyro]

They'll just keep adding on/tweaking/upgrading until it's just not possible to or not enough people who work there can make heads or tails of it, but that's never gonna happen.

 

[Sebmugi]

cool thread I find that the game oscillates between the "cartoon" and sometimes photorealism. it is mainly due to some grandiose lighting and clear / dark transitions <3
and on several occasions I said to myself this: but how is it possible to run all of this on a simple PS4 .. oO
some photo mode shoot (no spoil)

 

[Estarossa]

Hopefully they move to UE5. Nanite seems like a gamechanger

 

[Poimandres]

The engine is currently constrained by the hardware, not the other way round. There were graphical features in place in the early TLOU2 videos that didn't make it to the final game, likely for performance reasons. I think it's in fine form to serve next gen games well.

 

[Extra Sauce]

the ever so, so slightly "cartoony"* look is a feature, not a bug. it's how Naughty Dog has been avoiding the uncanny valley all those years.

*stylized might be a more appropriate descriptor

 

[HeWhoWalks]

It does seem pretty dated, graphically.

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No.

 

[TrashHeap64]

I'd be shocked if they haven't been spending the last year or so updating their engine for PS5. No need for them to redo all of their hard work. They'll adapt it as needed

 

[Ravelle]

I don't want games to look like hyper realistic uncanny video game people, I want my video games to look like video games. They got a good thing going now with their stylished characters that are able to emote amazingly and have a lot of subtitle.

 

[Pottuvoi]

Engine ≠ renderer.

 

[Deleted member 33120]

How the hell should we know?

They should do the things that they know best themselves.

 

[RestEerie]

there's no need to change the wheel if it works.

 

[Dreezy]

Definitely. There was probably a reason Kojima didn't pick their engine.

 

[Mahonay]

 

[the lizard]

Maybe if they want to create a more open/freeform experience. Otherwise just upgrade (and hopefully remove many of the loading screen transition animations).

 

[Tyaren]

It does seem pretty dated, graphically. A bit cartoony. Animations are ahead of the rest though.

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You do realize that the art style they choose for their games is to 100% an artistic choice.

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

Yes. they will be using Naughty Dog Engine 3.0 like how TLOU2 is using Naughty Dog Engine 2.0

 

[Tyaren]

I don't want games to look like hyper realistic uncanny video game people, I want my video games to look like video games. They got a good thing going now with their stylished characters that are able to emote amazingly and have a lot of subtitle.

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You are mixing up hyper realism with photo realism. Hyper realism is the kind of style games like Uncharted 4, The Last of Us 2, God of War, Horizon Zero Dawn or Spider-Man go for. It is a form of stylization. Photo realism is what you are referring to and what can lead to an uncanny valley effect.

 

[Decarb]

They probably already have one running on PS5. Heck I wouldn't be surprised if they had some input on PS5 architecture and what they specifically needed to run the next ND engine. The perks of being the home of the team ICE.

 

[Deleted member 45130]

They don't need a new engine. With hardware changes they will make iterations and optimise it further like most companies. Rockstar for example have been using the same engine since GTAIV and will continue to upgrade it as it's cost effective and they are familiar with it.

 

[Ocean Bones]

You think ND could make an open world game on their current engine without at least heavily modifying it?

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You think there's an engine that naughty dog wouldn't have to heavily modify to fit their definitions of open world gaming? You're crazy. These folks push gaming every generation.