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Yuntu

Prophet of Regret
Member
Nov 7, 2019
10,669
Germany
Why is this topic always so weird on this forum lol.

JRPG is fine as a genre term, its a specific design philosophy for games. Normally people have a clear idea when you call something that. I really dont know why this always turns into a doscussion as if its some abstract concept.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,319
Even if that's true (Which i disagree but imo this is not important), i still think it's silly to define a video game genre by setting or narrative, or tone, or anything that have nothing to do with the gameplay.

We already do this with horror games. Resident Evil, Siren, Five Nights at Freddies, Until Dawn, and Amnesia are all considered to be part of the same genre, even though they all play very differently from each other. For that matter, there's a big difference between how Resident Evil 1, Resident Evil 4, and Resident Evil 7 play, but they're all considered survival/horror games.
 

MarcelRguez

Member
Nov 7, 2018
2,418
No piece of media is just one single thing, especially if you're going to throw wildly different taxonomies (artstyle, mechanical genre, narrative genre, target demographic, monetization schemes) into the same hotpot. Use more than a single tag to describe something, I swear words don't bite.
 

Small Red Boy

▲ Legend ▲
Member
May 9, 2019
2,673
The distinction between JRPGs and WRPGs is more of a setting/tone thing than of where they were made. Genshin Impact can be a JRPG while not developed in Japan. It can also be a JRPG and a gatcha. Another example is Dark Souls, a WRPG made in Japan.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,098
We already do this with horror games. Resident Evil, Siren, Five Nights at Freddies, Until Dawn, and Amnesia are all considered to be part of the same genre, even though they all play very differently from each other. For that matter, there's a big difference between how Resident Evil 1, Resident Evil 4, and Resident Evil 7 play, but they're all considered survival/horror games.

That is true but then we also expand upon that like how Until Dawn is choice base or RE is action .
If someone ask for a Horror game people normally ask what type there interesting in .
Which is why is best to go with mix of gameplay and setting .
 

Issen

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,816
Unless the "J" in JRPG adds meaning that relates to the characteristics of the genre and not to the origin of the game, it is completely useless. If you have a given RPG, it does not make absolutely any difference in the experience of the product if it that same RPG was made in Japan or any other country (or even more nebulous locations like "Western").

Like others have said, when you speak of JRPGs, the J refers to the fact that it has a certain set of characteristics that are called "japanese" because of where they originated/were popularized, not because of where they are produced nowadays.

Whether or not that set of characteristics encompass a shitload of actually very different types of RPGs, that's another question entirely. But in that case, let us talk about "Action", "Adventure" or god forbid, "Action Adventure" first.
 

Nameless

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,346
Calling 13 Sentinels a VN sells it extremely short and turned me off from playing at first despite the praise.

It's a 2D Narrative Adventure game.
 

Deleted member 9479

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,953
JRPG isn't as useful as a genre anymore in the context of modern games.

"Anime game" is even less useful and is patently absurd. The people using it most often use it to refer to games with a heavy otaku/neet bait. And there's certainly a segment of the market that is designed to have that appeal, regardless of story genre or gameplay mechansim genre. And those two ARE very separate things, both of which have value.

But anime game is bad - it completely inaccurately attempts to describes an aesthetic while the underlying reasons for attempting the grouping are more about market demographic... not genre. If that's an important thing to you ok sure I get it, but even otaku game would be better than Anime game.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,657
JRPGs are a subculture, no one part of them are wholly unique to themselves, yet they are a specific experience people mean when they refer to them. They vary a lot, but if it has enough elements matching, it's within the umbrella. I think the same can be said about CRPGs.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I usually look at it this way: The genre of "JRPG" is a "style" of game popularized by Japanese game makers and not defined by who made them.

Example:
Sushi is a Japanese dish. If I made Sushi, and I'm not Japanese, does that mean I didn't make Sushi?

This is a good analogy.

Ys games are Action RPGs, which are not JRPGs, same for Demon's Souls.

You're going to get a lot of people to disagree with you, but I fully agree. If JRPG is to be understood as a genre, it needs to have genre definitions and boundaries. A genre that can be turn-based, strategy-based, action-based, overhead, third person, first person, or anything in between; that's not a genre anymore, it's a literally meaningless label.

If an universally recognized term comes up that means "RPG with linear character-based story, party and turn-based, with no movement action", I'll more than happily stop using JRPG altogether. Until then we still need a genre term to encompass games like classic Final Fantasy and Cosmic Star Heroine.

And speaking of CSH:
We already do this with horror games. Resident Evil, Siren, Five Nights at Freddies, Until Dawn, and Amnesia are all considered to be part of the same genre, even though they all play very differently from each other. For that matter, there's a big difference between how Resident Evil 1, Resident Evil 4, and Resident Evil 7 play, but they're all considered survival/horror games.

I think "horror" here applies as a narrative genre, rather than a game / mechanical genre. You can have a game that's "horror" independently of the actual genre of the game itself; there's horror FPSs (and even within these, you have very different single-player, co-op and versus variants), horror JRPGs, horror adventure games, horror third-person games, horror visual novels, etc.

This is however important insight in that the same applies to "anime" as well. The fact that a lot of anime games are JRPGs doesn't prevent pretty much every other genre having been explored under an anime aesthetic / storytelling lens.

And notably, multiple narrative genres can be applied at once. Like, for example, Corpse Party is a horror anime game; but again, that doesn't tell you anything about how it plays, so neither is actually informative as a gameplay descriptor.
 
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Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,784
Brazil
We already do this with horror games. Resident Evil, Siren, Five Nights at Freddies, Until Dawn, and Amnesia are all considered to be part of the same genre, even though they all play very differently from each other. For that matter, there's a big difference between how Resident Evil 1, Resident Evil 4, and Resident Evil 7 play, but they're all considered survival/horror games.

This is true but silly all the same imo.

I think survival horror could be a mechanical distinction since there's item management elements or the level design style. But then you put a pure TPS like Resident Evil 4 in the mix and everything gets messy.

Aside that, i think i can consider the classic ammo based survivor horror and the escape one as different genres based on mechanics, while RE4/5/6 are just TPSs (Honestly, these games have as much horror as a Half Life or Bioshock anyway) and Until Dawn is Telltale like stuff with an horror theme.

Also, it's interesting to note how Metro is not considered an horror game despite being based on an horror book. It is a FPS, not unlike F.E.A.R or maybe S.T.A.L.K.E.R. RE4 probably gets it just for the name. Stuff like RE7 or RE2 Remake can be considered classical ammo based survivor horror however imo.
 
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Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,372
I think the confusion regarding horror is that people blur the lines between horror as a genre and horror as a theme

And the same happens with "anime games" and anime as a style and anime as a set of tropes and design decisions that usually happen in games called like that
 

Laser Ramon

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,629
JRPG is an outdated term that was nebulous to begin with and the only people using it in a modern context have rented from Blockbuster Video.
 

MysticGon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,285
To me distinctions are important. Manga vs Manhwa vs Manhua. Or KPOP vs JPOP.

Throwing them under one umbrella muddies the water in more ways than one for me.
 

ventuno

Member
Nov 11, 2019
1,958
It's fine to use the term to discuss Japanese Role-Playing Games for obvious reasons, but in Genshin Impact's case we're not really discussing a Japanese role-playing game, are we... but we're still using the term because of the art style or the character designs. We're not even referring to the artistic influence the devs are subject to, just surface things. Using the term to describe a game like Genshin Impact shows how unnecessarily loaded and nebulous the term has become.

It's a step or two below an even emptier term, "anime game", at this point. If you're criticizing pandering, you're criticizing pandering. If you're criticizing plots aimed at teenagers, you're criticizing plots aimed at teenagers. These aspects don't apply to Japanese RPGs as a whole, much less all Japanese games or all anime, but people still refuse to differentiate.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,319
while RE4/5/6 are just TPSs (Honestly, these games have as much horror as a Half Life or Bioshock anyway)

I would consider both RE4 & Bioshock to be horror games, even if they're more action-packed than many horror games of the past. If you don't think both games are frequently trying to creep out & scare the player, then you're jaded.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,784
Brazil
I would consider both RE4 & Bioshock to be horror games, even if they're more action-packed than many horror games of the past. If you don't think both games are frequently trying to creep out & scare the player, then you're jaded.

That's the thing, a lot of pure FPSs does the same. Half Life has the same jump scare stuff, same as F.E.A.R or Metro or Doom 3 and sometimes even older stuff like Duke Nukem 3D or Shadow Warrior.

I don't think a classic RE or an Outlast is defined by their jump scares and stuff, there's gameplay mechanics going on with these games. In fact, classic RE is not even considered scary for a lot of people nowadays, but you still have to manage your ammo/cure items and backtrack all the same.
 

Yasumi

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,569
"The writing of a majority of these realistic-looking western games seem to appeal to people who like low budget primetime TV. We should call all of these games soap-opera-esques."
 

kodax_shc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,435
Southern California
Usually when I see someone use the term 'anime game' it has negative or dismissive connotation to it. So I go out of my way to just refer to each game by their respective genre rather than throw them under that umbrella.

That being said sometimes games are actually anime games, likes games based on an existing anime property. In the case I don't see anything wrong with them being called anime games. I think Namco Bandai even uses the slogan 'Play Anime' for many of their releases.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,494
I thought this was going to be about the same topic I've been too lazy to post after writing most of, which is about how weirdly people use "visual novel". But instead I am just incredibly confused.

The easy solution is to just stop using "anime game" and just use the actual genre.
 

Ladomania

Banned
Nov 8, 2020
246
Don't think about it too much. The more you try to set a strict definition for a genre the more you're gonna confuse yourself.
 

Mozendo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,230
Pacific North West
This is why JRPGs will always be "RPGs made in Japan" for me. Saying that JRPG is a genre just because of anime aesthetics and not gameplay mechanics is just really odd.
 

Justified

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,017
Atlanta
JRPG - made in Japan

jrpg - the genre (not many being made these days) (Think Dragon Quest XI, Digimon Cyber Sleuth, Secret of Evermore (a western jrpg))

jrpg-like/styled - aesthetically jrpg, but different gameplay mechanics. Most non-western RPGs these days
 

Deleted member 17210

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,569
The term "visual novel" has become completely ruined in recent years. It used to refer to interactive stories with barely any gameplay. That made sense as the terms "adventure", "graphic adventure", "text adventure" etc. were for story-based games with puzzles. Now people just call any Japanese story-heavy title a "visual novel" even if it's full of puzzles or other gameplay. It makes it very difficult to figure out which of these titles have actual gameplay beyond just navigating menus.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,494
The term "visual novel" has become completely ruined in recent years. It used to refer to interactive stories with barely any gameplay. That made sense as the terms "adventure", "graphic adventure", "text adventure" etc. were for story-based games with puzzles. Now people just call any Japanese story-heavy title a "visual novel" even if it's full of puzzles or other gameplay. It makes it very difficult to figure out which of these titles have actual gameplay beyond just navigating menus.

I mentioned it above but I need to get off my ass and finish making my thread about this. The blurring was already questionable since adventure games get shoved into it so readily, but in particular it's been very weird to see people call specifically 13 Sentinels one. When it's literally presented in the same way as a point and click adventure game would be.
 

deathkiller

Member
Apr 11, 2018
923
The term "visual novel" has become completely ruined in recent years. It used to refer to interactive stories with barely any gameplay. That made sense as the terms "adventure", "graphic adventure", "text adventure" etc. were for story-based games with puzzles. Now people just call any Japanese story-heavy title a "visual novel" even if it's full of puzzles or other gameplay. It makes it very difficult to figure out which of these titles have actual gameplay beyond just navigating menus.
Visual Novel hybrids have always existed. Looking at VNDB they count over one hundred VN/SRPG.
 

dom

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,439
This is why JRPGs will always be "RPGs made in Japan" for me. Saying that JRPG is a genre just because of anime aesthetics and not gameplay mechanics is just really odd.
RPGs made in Japan is even worse. Also, no one sees all anime games as JRPGs.
 

Mozendo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,230
Pacific North West
RPGs made in Japan is even worse. Also, no one sees all anime games as JRPGs.
Regional terms have always been used and make more sense as JRPG as a genre. People who group up games like Ys, Dragon Quest, Demon Gaze, and Disgaea which are all different sub-genres from each other and call them jRPGs because of the anime aesthetic which was the point of my post.
 
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RedSwirl

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,051
The term "anime game" has already been used on multiple occasions by different digital stores like Steam, the PlayStation Store, and the Microsoft Store. It basically denotes the audience these things appeal to (though often they include games directly based on anime series).

We already do this with horror games. Resident Evil, Siren, Five Nights at Freddies, Until Dawn, and Amnesia are all considered to be part of the same genre, even though they all play very differently from each other. For that matter, there's a big difference between how Resident Evil 1, Resident Evil 4, and Resident Evil 7 play, but they're all considered survival/horror games.
This is true but silly all the same imo.

I think survival horror could be a mechanical distinction since there's item management elements or the level design style. But then you put a pure TPS like Resident Evil 4 in the mix and everything gets messy.

Aside that, i think i can consider the classic ammo based survivor horror and the escape one as different genres based on mechanics, while RE4/5/6 are just TPSs (Honestly, these games have as much horror as a Half Life or Bioshock anyway) and Until Dawn is Telltale like stuff with an horror theme.

Also, it's interesting to note how Metro is not considered an horror game despite being based on an horror book. It is a FPS, not unlike F.E.A.R or maybe S.T.A.L.K.E.R. RE4 probably gets it just for the name. Stuff like RE7 or RE2 Remake can be considered classical ammo based survivor horror however imo.
I would consider both RE4 & Bioshock to be horror games, even if they're more action-packed than many horror games of the past. If you don't think both games are frequently trying to creep out & scare the player, then you're jaded.
That's the thing, a lot of pure FPSs does the same. Half Life has the same jump scare stuff, same as F.E.A.R or Metro or Doom 3 and sometimes even older stuff like Duke Nukem 3D or Shadow Warrior.

I don't think a classic RE or an Outlast is defined by their jump scares and stuff, there's gameplay mechanics going on with these games. In fact, classic RE is not even considered scary for a lot of people nowadays, but you still have to manage your ammo/cure items and backtrack all the same.
Horror games basically split up into two genres: survival horror and action horror.

Survival horror games basically started out as adventure games with horror elements -- games where you explore and solve puzzles while avoiding or dealing with enemies. Then RE and similar games introduced resource management elements. These started out with isometric or fixed camera angles, but games like Amnesia, Outlast, and Resident Evil 7 basically brought back the same old format in first person. RE7 structurally is way more similar to RE1 than any other RE game, just in first person.

Action horror games are mostly first or third person shooters that try to spook players. Ammo and other resources aren't really a problem, they're just set in spooky places and have scary enemies. They try to inflect terror rather than horror. Resident Evil 4 is where that split happened for the RE series, and it was followed by games like BioShock (System Shock 2 could be either or depending on the difficulty level), Dead Space, Left 4 Dead, Metro, or STALKER.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,319
Survival horror games basically started out as adventure games with horror elements -- games where you explore and solve puzzles while avoiding or dealing with enemies. Then RE and similar games introduced resource management elements. These started out with isometric or fixed camera angles, but games like Amnesia, Outlast, and Resident Evil 7 basically brought back the same old format in first person. RE7 structurally is way more similar to RE1 than any other RE game, just in first person.

Action horror games are mostly first or third person shooters that try to spook players. Ammo and other resources aren't really a problem, they're just set in spooky places and have scary enemies. They try to inflect terror rather than horror. Resident Evil 4 is where that split happened for the RE series, and it was followed by games like BioShock (System Shock 2 could be either or depending on the difficulty level), Dead Space, Left 4 Dead, Metro, or STALKER.

I think that's an oversimplification. For example, take the Siren series - it's clearly based on the old survival/horror genre with its focus on puzzles, but there's no long-term resource management (each stage is standalone & if you have a firearm, they give you plenty of ammo) & instead of the fight or flight focus with enemies, the game is focused on stealth. Ultimately, it's a cross between a Stealth game and a P&C adventure game, all with a horror setting & story.

Something like Until Dawn is more of a videogame version of a Choose Your Own Adventure book. The FNAF series is very much its own thing.

Also, with the exception of L4D (and maybe Dead Space, I don't remember much), all of those action/horror games you mentioned still have a heavy focus on resource management. In RE4, there's the whole inventory tetris thing (and getting upgrades to your storage is very important to store ammo, herbs, and weapons for harder & harder encounters) and you can definitely run out of ammo if you're not careful. System Shock 2, ammo is plenty scarce and some of that carries over to Bioshock. In Metro, ammo doubles as currency so the game encourages saving as much as possible. And so on.

Anyway, my main point is that in gaming, most genres are divided by mechanics, while outside gaming, most genres are thematically-based. Horror games are an exception & I would argue that JRPGs are another one.
 
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RedSwirl

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,051
I think that's an oversimplification. For example, take the Siren series - it's clearly based on the old survival/horror genre with its focus on puzzles, but there's no long-term resource management (each stage is standalone & if you have a firearm, they give you plenty of ammo) & instead of the fight or flight focus with enemies, the game is focused on stealth. Ultimately, it's a cross between a Stealth game and a P&C adventure game, all with a horror setting & story.

Something like Until Dawn is more of a videogame version of a Choose Your Own Adventure book. The FNAF series is very much its own thing.

Also, with the exception of L4D (and maybe Dead Space, I don't remember much), all of those action/horror games you mentioned still have a heavy focus on resource management. In RE4, there's the whole inventory tetris thing (and getting upgrades to your storage is very important to store ammo, herbs, and weapons for harder & harder encounters) and you can definitely run out of ammo if you're not careful. System Shock 2, ammo is plenty scarce and some of that carries over to Bioshock. In Metro, ammo doubles as currency so the game encourages saving as much as possible. And so on.

Anyway, my main point is that in gaming, most genres are divided by mechanics, while outside gaming, most genres are thematically-based. Horror games are an exception & I would argue that JRPGs are another one.
I don't wanna derail, but I was always of the opinion that games like RE4, STALKER, and Metro were much less stingy with supplies than the classic RE games or Silent Hill or something like that, even if they have dense inventory systems. The main difference I see in action horror games is that confronting masses of enemies in them is usually unavoidable. In survival horror games you have to pick and choose which enemies you're gonna avoid and which ones you're gonna eliminate.

System Shock 2 you can definitely argue is extremely resource-oriented, but in my experience BioShock massively de-emphasized that aspect. It has basically the same gameplay as SS2 but they entirely removed the inventory menu and made the whole game (on normal mode) an order of magnitude easier.

But I do agree that "horror" is one of the only broad game genres that's really only held together by its thematic meaning rather than its mechanical meaning. That feeling towards "JRPGs" is why I was wondering if a redefinition of the "style" or "genre" is in order. You have all these kinds of games -- RPGs, visual novels, adventure games, strategy games, fighting games, and mixtures between them (like 13 Sentinels, BlazBlue, or Utawarerumono) that generally appeal to the same audience that consumes anime, manga, light novels, webnovels, or webtoons. That's why I brought up terms like "ACG" or "shounen games."

Then there's the idea that defining genres of games adds an extra dimension compared to other media because of their mechanical differences. Assassin's Creed started out as a historical fiction open-world game, but Ubisoft has tried to turn it into a historical fiction RPG. Dragon Quest is a fantasy RPG. Cyberpunk 2077 is a, well, cyberpunk RPG. Mass Effect is a space opera RPG. Ghost of Tsushima is a jidaigeki open-world game.

Another problem is that there really is no other accepted name for traditionally party-based, turn-based RPGs for consoles. There are SRPGs and ARPGs and dungeon crawlers (DRPGs) but no real name for something that doesn't fall into any of those categories.
 
Dark Souls has tons of WRPG mechanics in it.

Created character, non-linear, Western inspired aesthetic, not traditional story telling (meaning not told through cutscenes), armor degredation, weapon degredation, inventory limits, weigh limits, story choices, there's WRPG stuff all over those games. It has alot more in common with Witcher and Elder Scrolls than it does Persona or Kingdom Hearts.
All of that is offset by the fact that Action rpgs as a whole is a japanese invention regardless
 

MrCinos

Member
Oct 26, 2017
740
Why is this topic always so weird on this forum lol.

JRPG is fine as a genre term, its a specific design philosophy for games. Normally people have a clear idea when you call something that. I really dont know why this always turns into a doscussion as if its some abstract concept.
Agreed. When someone asks for JRPG recommendations, they never ask for something like Dark Souls. JRPG is hard to "quantify" but most people realize what is meant by it.

If someone for some reason can't call Cosmic Star Heroine - JRPG then I don't know what to say. At least say it's a JRPG-like game while everyone else can safely call it JRPG without any misunderstandings in discussions/recommendations.
 

styl_oh

Fallen One-Winged Chicken Chaser
Member
Nov 24, 2019
2,205
Alberta, Canada
This just seems like such a non-problem

like you know when music nerds need to obsessively categorize every sub-sub-sub genre... what do i call blackened crust punk-influenced post-black industrial metal? probably, i would call it 'metal'