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What should happen to classical language and reading music?

  • Let it go. Middle and lower classes aren’t given the tools to put their energy into privileged past.

    Votes: 82 41.6%
  • Keep it alive. They’re arts/skills that people should get to use as they find passion & excel.

    Votes: 101 51.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 14 7.1%

  • Total voters
    197

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,285
Uhhhh, terms and conditions should not be written in technical language because that kind of language is contextual to the industry, and the audience of those texts should not need to be versed in industry specific language to understand it. It's no indication of vocabulary being lost, it's indication of awareness that industries are actually taking advantage of people already not being able to keep up with that kind of language to their own ends.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Echoing this as well, it seems like they think that "past = smarter" when every indication shows that people are much more educated than before.

People forget that for whatever flaws, say, the chronically crass twitter users may have, their inanity is backed by a strong understanding of history and culture.

There are so many cultural biases at play in the way this discussion is being started that it's nearly impossible to tease them all out in a post or two.

The anti-populist sentiment seen in this thread manifests itself regularly on this forum, though, and ironically leads to a point where coverage of the hobby this forum is built around is expressed in a dismissive manner -- ironic because the stifling of cultural commentary actually does lead to an indolent approach to the art we surround ourselves with.



Gita's right on this one. I've lost count of the number of times lazy posters are like "whoa, Kotaku talking about something other than the envisioned sex lives of sims characters" or similar, where they're obviously trying to obliquely denigrate her work and the people she works with. That's not great!
 

Orayn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,973
I don't know what I did wrong in the framing and I agree with you on the rest so not sure where the miscommunication lies.
It's the angle that English and various artforms are "degenerating" in some fashion. It's total nonsense especially in the case of language: language adapts to suit the circumstances it's used for, there are definitely complications and prestige dialects, but those aren't "better" or "more advanced" than more common speech. It's kind of like calling animals "more evolved" or "less evolved." Animals just evolve to their environment, there's not a hierarchy to it.
 

viciouskillersquirrel

Cheering your loss
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,874
Well this was originally sparked by a conversation and there's foundations for "saving the music" in schools and communities which are losing music programs.

Upon searching further, there's plenty of publications who discuss listenership and popularity of classical music education declining.

Upon searching, there's many discussions and articles about the way English has "streamlined" and lost complexity.


I don't know what I did wrong in the framing and I agree with you on the rest so not sure where the miscommunication lies.

my searching touched on above, if I'm understanding correctly, seems to indicate there is data that indicates a long term streamlining of English and a decline in the rates of classical music prevalence.

I agree with much of what you are saying, though I don't know if antiquated language is being kept from people to "infantalize" them in a conspiratorial manner

Apologies, I'm open to rewording if my take on the sides is unpopular.
I'd argue that people listen to way more classical music these days than you think. Just how do you think the majority of movie scores are put together? Skyrim, Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings are brimming with classical music, like modern day opera.

EDIT: I first heard a bunch of classical music by watching Bugs Bunny cartoons
 
OP
OP

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
I genuinely do not understand the point that the OP is trying to make. I don't agree that changes in culture are inherently changes for the worse, and I disagree on the implied division between "low" and "high" art. Accessibility does not ruin art any more than it ruins a parking lot.
I didn't say they're changes for the worse... I twice said the accessibility is good change. I also don't think art is being ruined at all. Music will be just fine. Writing gets its message across just fine. I'm referring to specific types of eras of language and musical ability that may be less prevalent as time is going on.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
You know I experienced a pretty significant culture shock when I realized that the saying wasn't 'O Tempora! O Morays!'
--
48897.jpg
 

Trickster

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,533
Language evolves and changes over time, that's always been the case. Go look up youtube videos that give examples of what languages like english sounded like a thousand years ago. It literally sounded nothing like today's english.
 

Unknownlight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 2, 2017
10,571
The "Terms and Conditions" argument in the OP was so baffling that it completely threw me off my train of thought.

There are times where language is an art, but most of the time language is a tool. Developing our tools to make them more effective and more accessible is never a bad thing.

It's like arguing that you shouldn't use a hammer, you should use a big rock instead as that's how people in the ancient past did it
 

Lost Lemurian

Member
Nov 30, 2019
4,297
OP, there are more words in the English language now than at any other time. People *use* more words than at any other time. That WSJ article is locked, but I'm sure that it's some bloviating lamentation about "kids these days" that's backed up by fuckall, if it's like most WSJ editorials.

Shakespeare's writing is basically 1337 speak, for all the resemblance it shares to how actual people spoke and wrote in his day. Reading and writing in general were for the upper classes until the 20th century.

There was no Golden Era in which people were more "civilized" than they are now. That's been a fantasy that old guys jerked off over since the time of the ancient Greeks.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Culture changes constantly but what should give people hope in seeing this change that cultural preservation is really fucking easy now especially with the internet.
 
OP
OP

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
OP, there are more words in the English language now than at any other time. People *use* more words than at any other time. That WSJ article is locked, but I'm sure that it's some bloviating lamentation about "kids these days" that's backed up by fuckall, if it's like most WSJ editorials.

Shakespeare's writing is basically 1337 speak, for all the resemblance it shares to how actual people spoke and wrote in his day. Reading and writing in general were for the upper classes until the 20th century.

There was no Golden Era in which people were more "civilized" than they are now. That's been a fantasy that old guys jerked off over since the time of the ancient Greeks.
I don't think I suggested or believe any of the things you are trying to refute. I don't at all think people are less civilized or less educated now than past eras...
 

Brhoom

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,654
Kuwait
Language is at each moment evolving. New words art at each moment did introduce while others receiveth did bury in the dictionary.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,658
String instruments and general symphonic instruments are here to stay. The more niche items that aren't popularly used worldwide will be a lost art in time, but that's just how time works.
 

VeryHighlander

The Fallen
May 9, 2018
6,386
Let it go or try to keep it alive? I'm not sure. I do however find it amazing that Hebrew was brought back as a conscious decision made by a wide group of people. It was a huge group effort to bring it back to the point where most Israelis know the language which was deemed dead not so long ago. I think the official number is something like over 10 million know the language know which is just nuts to me. The language was not spoken anymore for a huge period in time.
 

robot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,470
I don't buy the idea that language is becoming simpler at all. Look at urban dictionary, or how often Webster is adding words. Consider how often you have no idea what teenagers are even saying. OP seems to be arguing "classy" language is disappearing mainly, which is a different thing, but the number of new, meaningful English words feels like it's exploding right now thanks to the internet.
 

Lost Lemurian

Member
Nov 30, 2019
4,297
I don't think I suggested or believe any of the things you are trying to refute. I don't at all think people are less civilized or less educated now than past eras...
You're entire point is that things are "dumbed down" in comparison to the past, and I'm saying that's not accurate. If you compare the total vocabulary of the average person today and 100 years ago, today's is larger. And that would be true no matter how far you go back. As for "classical education" (meaning classical languages like Latin and Greek, formal training in an instrument, etc), that was always reserved for the upper crust.

Now, if you're talking about after school band programs? Yes, those were more prevalent from the middle of the 20th century until the 80s, when they started to get cut. Most of the rationale for their loss is that students are being taught *vastly* more material than ever before and there isn't enough funding to include the arts. Now, there's a lot to take issue with that argument, but it is true that the average student now is expected to know a lot more than they did in the 1950s.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
We should absolutely care we're losing parts of world cultural heritage. However, the fact is that due to our current system, people who might otherwise be passionate enough to preserve such things instead have to work 60 hours a week to make ends meet and barely have time to socialize with close friends and rest, let alone dedicate time to a dying craft.

Want to make sure such things don't die out? Start dismantling our current hypercapitalistic system. Whether you do it with artistic endowments funded by the loads of money billionaires and corporations are withholding from the market, or by moving towards socialism, is up to you.
I don't buy the idea that language is becoming simpler at all. Look at urban dictionary, or how often Webster is adding words. Consider how often you have no idea what teenagers are even saying. OP seems to be arguing "classy" language is disappearing mainly, which is a different thing, but the number of new, meaningful English words feels like it's exploding right now thanks to the internet.
This is true as well. Language isn't devolving- it's evolving. Words we think of as "classy" weren't always. Shakespeare alone made up a lot of words we think of as highbrow today, but were just absolutely silly at the time.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,496
Dallas, TX
I feel like the whole premise of this is off. I guess education in Classical Latin and Greek has declined, but education in those classical works in vernacular translation is as strong as ever. It's not like Aristotle's getting deleted from the history books. It's just that only people who are studying to be actual historians of the ancient world are going and learning Latin, since it's been supplanted by English as a lingua franca for the Western world, and is no longer required as a liturgical language for Catholics, though I imagine priests still learn. Schools still teach Shakespeare. They still teach classical music. In absolute numbers, more people are probably educated in those things than ever. It's just that there is no longer an upper class bubble of people churning out culture exclusively for people given the exact same education as themselves in some set canon. More books are published in a day now than anyone could ever read in a lifetime, so of course things look different than whatever 19th-century dinner party of erudition you're imagining where everyone can quote the same handful of classics back and forth at each other for hours on end.
 

Deleted member 23850

Oct 28, 2017
8,689
As someone who adores music and language of ALL ECONOMIC CLASSES, no. No way.

I can't imagine a life without either Iannis Xeanis or Cash Money Records.
 

Zippedpinhead

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,739
I am going to weigh in on music, as someone who used to play and enjoys a TON of various kinds of music.

Its all relevant...

One of the most transformative musical experiences of the last few years is Hamilton. It took a classic but undertold story, presented it with amazing music, awesome lyrics and found the absolute best people to protray those characters. Nothing in there is different from a typical musical, but at the same time It uses rap instead of more traditional show tunes, its not afraid of harsh language, it actively cast people of color (with the only white guy being quite literally a Fop and played extensively for laughs).

None of that would be possible without taking the framework of the classics, framing it with new ideas, and pushing it out there.

some of the most influential singers of our modern time are still trained but they have their own voice, soul and inspiration that makes them relevant to the youth of the day. And language in music, different types of music, using instruments in unique ways and different beats/temps are all just part of what makes music different from each age.
 

meowdi gras

Member
Feb 24, 2018
12,659
Evolution is one thing; philistinism is another. As one poster noted above, the pace and circumstances of modern society has put something of a kibosh on the pastimes of self-reflection and contemplation for all but the more privileged classes. This seems all by design, as a less-educated/sophisticated populace is a more easily manipulated one. Ever read any Orwell; 1984 and his writings on semiotics, in particular?

Any way you look at the issue, I don't see limiting our paradigms of thought as a net positive at all. For those of us blessed with a little leisure time to expend, we owe it both to ourselves and the society we live in to exercise as much of it as possible in the pursuit of self-improvement--not just physically, but intellectually, emotionally, and "spiritually"--rather than mindless distractions. For the broader our consciousness and deeper our understanding of the world, all the easier to combat, or even recognize the societal divisions which reinforce these harmful cycles of ignorance among the populace. In other words, let's place less faith in dumbing everything down to a lowest-common-denominator level as the ultimate solution, when growing developing minds and hearts yields such an infinitely-greater dividend for society.

Leisure: The Basis of Culture, by Josef Pieper, is a good study on this subject.
 

UCBooties

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
2,311
Pennsylvania, USA
Consciously allowing the past to die is as good as killing it. Nothing is gained from the loss of culture
The poll is a false choice and you are exacerbating it with specious comparisons. Also, you are now arguing that there is an ethical duty to preserve "culture" regardless of one's own interests or proclivities. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on how this duty should be enforced and who should be the arbiters of what culture is worth preserving.
 

riverfr0zen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,165
Manhattan, New York
You need to narrow your scope, or at least separate the concerns. Your question kind of mixes everything together, as though a society of people who converse in Shakespearean language in 2019 is necessarily is a positive thing.

There are separate concerns and factors around utility of a cultural artifact, and the preservation of knowledge about it. In the end, you want the freedom to disperse with outmoded cultural aspects, so that you have a living, evolving culture. And yet you want the democratization of old knowledge (i.e. accessibility and ability to appreciate by many).

These aren't necessarily opposing goals either. For e.g. simplifying access to current language can set people up with the tools to appreciate historical language, if they happen to be interested in it.
 

Dongs Macabre

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,284
If anything, the devaluation of language means we're seeing more jargon and argot being necessary to understand modern culture. You can call anyone who disagrees with you an SJW and an NPC. You can cry whataboutism and ad hominem ad infinitum. You can peddle reheated alphabet soup over and over again because Newspeak is back and 🍑 this season and yes it's in pog form. It doesn't matter whether the basis of your language is the Rubaiyat or RuPaul's Drag Race if you can't say anything at all.

The fault lies, as usual, with the upper classes who want to keep everyone as ignorant as possible by encouraging them to think nothing exists between Queen Elizabeth I and Yas Queen. I'd also rank language low on the list of things I care about if all I had to go on was high school English class.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
It's not necessary at all for popular music, but for more complex forms it's perfect.

What would you replace it with?
I don't need to replace it in order to criticize it. Whatever would take its place shouldn't be concocted by a single person anyway.

Regarding complexity, it wasn't even created for the purpose of communicating musical complexity.

Incredibly specific aspects of classical music notation were added over time as composers chose to leave less of the musical interpretation up to the players and associated styles. This mostly started with Beethoven (as far as dynamic markings go) and really picked up post romantic era.

If anything, classical music notation lacks enough specificity for what contemporary classic composers try to use it for, which is why the notation is never enough by itself. The composer has to be present during rehearsal to explain what they meant by what they've written on the page.

It's the current standard for an entire industry (or multiple, I suppose) so it's not like swapping something out would be simple, but it certainly doesn't mean that the archaic system in place is ideal.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
So communication becoming more efficient...is a bad thing? If you can get across the exact same point in a less convoluted or complex way, then what's the point of using the complex method? And I disagree that musical skill is changing. I know friends who are music majors and it's just as rigorous from the sounds of it
 

Window

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,283
I don't quite follow the premise of the thread. Do you think less people are learning to read and write or music than in the past?
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,944
Your remark about language is an example of confirmation bias. Older generations did not speak with a larger or more complex vocabulary than we do today overall, it's just that the things that we read from history tend to be the most important things, written by the most knowledgeable people of their era using that language for its own sake. Those publications were generally niche, in one way or another, and don't represent the common, everyday vocabulary of their time. You'll find that our language today is generally more complex than ever if you delve into those specific realms where complexity is valued.

Also there's a lot of meaning that can be packed into simple words, more today than ever before. Where languages before were often flowery and ornate in order to be descriptive, our modern languages are lean and efficient. That's not really a bad thing because it means that a simple sentence composed of simple words today can be far more complex than a similar sentence generations ago, while still having the opportunity to utilize the wider vocabulary that would have been more common years ago. It's not like you can't use fancy language, you just don't have to in order to convey the same information.

Your remarks about music are just dead wrong, classical music training is more comprehensive and widely taught now than ever in human history
 
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Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
It's still there, but teachers like me who still do hardcore standard grammar and literature are becoming part of the "old school" of teaching. And standards are being relaxed in the name of funding, because if a kid can't read a whole book by age 13, maybe the standards are too hard, or something.

You need to be able to decode the world around you. That means having good language, math, science, history, and physical education. The more the better. And yes, Shakespeare is a part of it, for those of you who keep invoking him as some kind of impractical standard. You'll never be able to understand a great deal of English literature if you can't understand Shakespeare. It's some of the most straightforward, if archaic, writing for adults out there. With Shakespeare under your belt, you can go to the Brontes and Keats and Whitman and Dickinson. You can handle formal philosophy. So much of the world is made accessible by understanding the style that Shakespeare wrote in, themes and philosophical questions that show up even in mass media like the MCU.

I don't know, it bothers me when I can't understand something, and I try to fix that. Even if I don't know how to do advanced calculus, I at least want to be able to understand that people are using it when I see something cool happen.
 

Guffers

Member
Nov 1, 2017
384
I don't need to replace it in order to criticize it. Whatever would take its place shouldn't be concocted by a single person anyway.

Regarding complexity, it wasn't even created for the purpose of communicating musical complexity.

Incredibly specific aspects of classical music notation were added over time as composers chose to leave less of the musical interpretation up to the players and associated styles. This mostly started with Beethoven (as far as dynamic markings go) and really picked up post romantic era.

If anything, classical music notation lacks enough specificity for what contemporary classic composers try to use it for, which is why the notation is never enough by itself. The composer has to be present during rehearsal to explain what they meant by what they've written on the page.

It's the current standard for an entire industry (or multiple, I suppose) so it's not like swapping something out would be simple, but it certainly doesn't mean that the archaic system in place is ideal.

Gotcha, 100% agree that it's not enough when describing contemporary music. I'm not sure how to approach amending it. My experiences with graphic notation when dealing with contemporary works have been headache inducing. And just like you described, the composer needs to be present, or a composer sanctioned recording referenced.

Can I ask what your instrument is, and what modifications you would like to see specific to that? I'm a Guitarist, mostly dealing in written classical works. I'm currently working through a modern arrangement of the Cello Suites, where a musicologist has added their own symbols and phrase structures, without providing a legend. On one hand it's fun, on the other it's frustrating and taking me longer to find the music.
 

teruterubozu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,896
It's been the same for like 400 years and because it's only been used in a very specific, non-mandatory practice within society it's never been subject to legitimate scrutiny.

Because musicians aren't legitimate? This is the dumbest argument ever. And at one time music was a mandatory part of education in large parts of the western world.
 

meowdi gras

Member
Feb 24, 2018
12,659
The irony is as thick as a Samuel Richardson novel and a Max Reger concerto in here.
 
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riverfr0zen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,165
Manhattan, New York
Your remark about language is an example of confirmation bias. Older generations did not speak with a larger or more complex vocabulary than we do today overall, it's just that the things that we read from history tend to be the most important things, written by the most knowledgeable people of their era using that language for its own sake. Those publications were generally niche, in one way or another, and don't represent the common, everyday vocabulary of their time. You'll find that our language today is generally more complex than ever if you delve into those specific realms where complexity is valued.

Also there's a lot of meaning that can be packed into simple words, more today than ever before. Where languages before were often flowery and ornate in order to be descriptive, our modern languages are lean and efficient. That's not really a bad thing because it means that a simple sentence composed of simple words today can be far more complex than a similar sentence generations ago, while still having the opportunity to utilize the wider vocabulary that would have been more common years ago. It's not like you can't use fancy language, you just don't have to in order to convey the same information.

Your remarks about music are just dead wrong, classical music training is more comprehensive and widely taught now than ever in human history

Great points here.
 

Freeglader

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 13, 2017
825
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

I think there is a problem in American culture in that many of us go out of our way to utilize simpler words and 'dumbed down' vocabularies in order to avoid coming across as pretentious or making others feel stupid. I'm very guilty of this too and I am just now starting to overcome these subconscious desires after spending more time in the UK and Germany where the people I met didn't seem to have these concerns. Also, I'm an English teacher for crying out loud and have strong feelings about the importance of words. By the way, 1984 is a great novel that tackles some of these ideas through the dystopian concept of Newspeak. Everyone should read that book.
 
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Parch

Member
Nov 6, 2017
7,980
Uh.......
Dude.
The same might not be true for language. That is an eternally changing attribute.

But music is still increasingly well taught.
Half of the songs that we sing today, in the holiday season are hundreds of years old.
I agree. There is a significant difference between language and music. Older language and vocabulary can be translated and modernized to be understood, but music a completely different thing. Classical music pieces are still going to be heard and enjoyed exactly as they were performed without any need of translation for understanding.
 

Freeglader

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 13, 2017
825
I think arguing about whether the English language itself is being dumbed down is ridiculous. There is no doubt that the language is growing and becoming more complex. Based on my own observations, I do, however, think that daily colloquial speech is becoming more simplistic and efficient (in the U.S. at least). I suppose the increased efficiency can be seen as a positive, but it comes at the price of more simplistic and narrowed speech. I mourn the perpetuation of this trend as I love language and take joy in the precision of expression that an expansive vocabulary can provide. Unfortunately, I have no definitive proof other than personal anecdotes that this phenomenon is actually occurring in colloquial speech.
 
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EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,906
Curious about the "musical skills" that somehow got lost or are changing while we're still using the exact same music theory that exists since several centuries.
Any examples for that claim? A single one maybe?
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,038
Language ebbs and flows.

The mid-atlantic accent is basically gone, too.


I voted "Other" though because I think the choices are too cut and dry. Language will be preserved in different ways, but it must change. Language is a living thing, especially a language like English which has no national arbiter or official body controlling it (As opposed to something like French, for instance).





For instance listen/watch to this debate between James Baldwin and Bill Buckley at the Cambridge Union in in 1965. The midatlantic American accent and that of the debate hosts, Cambridge University, is different than the way that almost anybody in America speaks today and anybody in the UK speaks today. And it's just ~60 years ago, and both Buckley and Baldwin were born in New York, one from rich upper class New York (Buckley) and one literally from destitute Harlem (Baldwin), yet they both have affectations and mannerisms that are completely foreign to almost anybody today, and more similar to one another than different. And almost nobody talks that way anymore.

And of course, British English today wasn't British English 100+ years ago either, almost nobody in the United Kingdom spoke English like how they do today, a near complete manifestation and influence of the BBC.
 
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Freeglader

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 13, 2017
825
So communication becoming more efficient...is a bad thing? If you can get across the exact same point in a less convoluted or complex way, then what's the point of using the complex method?
I think that communication becoming more efficient can be considered a bad thing because it limits the thoughts and feelings one can verbally express. Imagine asking two people, one with a limited vocabulary and another with an expansive vocabulary, how they are feeling today. For the purposes of this example, let's just say both of these individuals are having one of the best days of their lives. The limited vocabulary individual might say, "I'm feeling really well today!" The expansive vocabulary individual might say, "I'm feeling positively marvelous today!" This is a basic example, but I think it gets my point across. The individual with the expansive vocabulary can use words with stronger, more specific connotations to convey a statement that is closer to what they are actually feeling and thinking. An expansive vocabulary means less of a discrepancy between what one says and what one means. I also think that this point is not just limited to vocabulary. Having skill in sentence formation, syntactical structures, and figurative language can also lend more veracity to an individual's expression. Intentionally obfuscating communication is another can of worms, however, and I think it should almost always be avoided.
 
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