Hear hear. Why is this even a conversation now? Because we didn't do enough immediately after the civil war. We would have had more than gentleman agreements, you know the things the crap bags from the republican party completely ignore now.
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Should we allow the Trump voters to take off their redhats?
- Thread starter PersonAndStuff
- Start date
Hear hear. Why is this even a conversation now? Because we didn't do enough immediately after the civil war. We would have had more than gentleman agreements, you know the things the crap bags from the republican party completely ignore now.
They're doing it to my people already. How many people have been unfairly incarcerated and scarred because of it?
Just seems like a matter of survival to keep track of people that support that.
But, you know, it's obvious you don't care. Because you've singled out a hyperbolic statement that was an easy as fuck reference to make because of the framing of the thread in order to argue worry about something that's not actually going to happen. You're just asking questions. You're worried that "we're actually the baddies."
It's not slick. It's old. It's tired. Just go away.
Exactly. Letting these fuckers off the hook is only going to cause more problems down the road.
The classic "Aldo Raine carved a swastika on a nazi, so he must be a nazi himself".
You're free to not visit this forum if you don't want to.
I lost two uncles this year because of Covid, and I'll always wonder if they would have died at all if we had a competent administration in place during this pandemic. So, no, fuck those people.
And that's just taking into account my personal losses. Throw in the fact that his administration, under his "leadership" locked children up in cages. CAGES, and a list of atrocities and criminal actions too long to list, I say again, fuck those people. Take some accountability and responsibility for the part you played in bringing this country to the place we're at right now. And this goes beyond just Trump. Many of these older people that groveled at the alter of Trump were the same people that gave us Reagan, Bush, etc, who also set the course that lead us to Trump. So, no. Fuck your mee-maw and paw-paw and everyone else that put this piece of shit and his sycophantic bootlickers in power.
We're going to be recovering from the effects of this administration for years. I'm generally a forgiving person. I don't tend to hold grudges, or animosity towards others, but we've seen such a massive erosion of empathy and compassion, that is literally killing people, and it's because of privileged, "got mine, fuck you" people out there that just don't give a fuck. Then they want to sweep the part they played under the rug because they've "seen the light." Okay, good for you, you realized you backed the wrong horse. But also, fuck you. It's not like we didn't have any clue as to the type of "leader" Trump would be. The man may be a con man, a liar, and a cheat and swindler (among so many other things), but he's literally worn all of that on his sleeve his entire fucking life. He brags about it. Boasts about it. Prides himself on it. It's not my fault your stupid, racist, sexist, misogynistic ass got so erect at the idea that he'd be pointing all of that towards brown and black people that you didn't think he'd ever fuck you over like he's done everyone else his entire existence. Reap what you've fucking sown.
I'm fine with them abstaining from voting this election cycle, or voting Dem instead, but I'm never going to forget the role they've played, and they're going to have to work really, really hard to make any type of amends for the damage they helped cause the people of not just this country, but the world as a result of his Presidency.
I'm also not going to shit on people willing and able to turn the other cheek and welcome them into the fold, but my people have been doing that for generations, and we're still being murdered in the streets by police, unjustly incarcerated (when we aren't murdered in the streets), and overall left to swing in the wind by the majority that don't have to really think twice about their place in the social hierarchy of this country because of their privilege.
A major component of growing and becoming a better person is owning up to the bullshit you've done to others and yourselves. Acknowledging that you've fucked up and done shitty things, or made shitty choices. Self awareness and self reflection is one of the hardest things to face and look in the mirror to overcome, but it's not an impossible thing. If these people don't do that, then we're doomed to repeat this same bullshit in another 4 years, when the next smooth-talking racist, sexist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, islamophobic piece of shit struts up on stage and spouts rhetoric that reinforces their tiny world view.
And that's just taking into account my personal losses. Throw in the fact that his administration, under his "leadership" locked children up in cages. CAGES, and a list of atrocities and criminal actions too long to list, I say again, fuck those people. Take some accountability and responsibility for the part you played in bringing this country to the place we're at right now. And this goes beyond just Trump. Many of these older people that groveled at the alter of Trump were the same people that gave us Reagan, Bush, etc, who also set the course that lead us to Trump. So, no. Fuck your mee-maw and paw-paw and everyone else that put this piece of shit and his sycophantic bootlickers in power.
We're going to be recovering from the effects of this administration for years. I'm generally a forgiving person. I don't tend to hold grudges, or animosity towards others, but we've seen such a massive erosion of empathy and compassion, that is literally killing people, and it's because of privileged, "got mine, fuck you" people out there that just don't give a fuck. Then they want to sweep the part they played under the rug because they've "seen the light." Okay, good for you, you realized you backed the wrong horse. But also, fuck you. It's not like we didn't have any clue as to the type of "leader" Trump would be. The man may be a con man, a liar, and a cheat and swindler (among so many other things), but he's literally worn all of that on his sleeve his entire fucking life. He brags about it. Boasts about it. Prides himself on it. It's not my fault your stupid, racist, sexist, misogynistic ass got so erect at the idea that he'd be pointing all of that towards brown and black people that you didn't think he'd ever fuck you over like he's done everyone else his entire existence. Reap what you've fucking sown.
I'm fine with them abstaining from voting this election cycle, or voting Dem instead, but I'm never going to forget the role they've played, and they're going to have to work really, really hard to make any type of amends for the damage they helped cause the people of not just this country, but the world as a result of his Presidency.
I'm also not going to shit on people willing and able to turn the other cheek and welcome them into the fold, but my people have been doing that for generations, and we're still being murdered in the streets by police, unjustly incarcerated (when we aren't murdered in the streets), and overall left to swing in the wind by the majority that don't have to really think twice about their place in the social hierarchy of this country because of their privilege.
A major component of growing and becoming a better person is owning up to the bullshit you've done to others and yourselves. Acknowledging that you've fucked up and done shitty things, or made shitty choices. Self awareness and self reflection is one of the hardest things to face and look in the mirror to overcome, but it's not an impossible thing. If these people don't do that, then we're doomed to repeat this same bullshit in another 4 years, when the next smooth-talking racist, sexist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, islamophobic piece of shit struts up on stage and spouts rhetoric that reinforces their tiny world view.
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insuating people should leave might not be the way to go
This sentence really speaks to me because when I was in my late teens I grew up so sheltered I really had naive thoughts like how useless "hate" is but since I've educated myself a lot more and well we all know how these last few years turned out it's just not feasible to have empathy towards a group of people that are subconsciously fine with you dying or even wish it. And stupidity just isn't an excuse. Truth of the matter is that if I show tolerance to these types of people I'm essentially tolerating murder and torture out of pure selfishness or hate or both. And morally I can't live with that in any way.
What makes you think "cool forum you guys have here" is coming from someone who genuinely sees themselves as part of this community and wants to contribute to it? Sounds like they already made up their mind about the place.
It really needs to be ingrained in the American psyche that Trumpism was a mistake and it was the inevitable outcome of a party that feeds on racism and low information/disinformation.
It needs to be a "Never again" moment and analogies to Trumpism need to be taken seriously in the future.
It needs to be a "Never again" moment and analogies to Trumpism need to be taken seriously in the future.
I guess for me, it's like, we literally have the knowledge of the world at our fingertips, and unless you are completely unplugged from the internet somehow, there's no real excuse for ignorance and remaining in your bubble.
Vetting sources, or locating information about topics you are unfamiliar with is painfully easy to do in this day and age.
If these people can hop on Facebook to share the latest anti-whatever meme, then they can pop up google and educate themselves. What it boils down to is choice. They chose to double down. They chose to attempt plausible deniability. They chose to look away from the atrocities being committed to people that don't look like them. They chose to justify their herd mentality. They chose to remain ignorant. That's on them, and I just refuse to let them sweep it under the rug like this country has been doing to its most heinous deeds for centuries now.
Lets get the poster to talk, and have a conversation. Let's not say leave, it's no better than the other side saying "love it or leave it." If that person ends up just trying to do nothing but bait, let them talk to nothing, at least we know we can try.
nah
Good if you want to keep talking, but concern trolling is rarely done in good faith. With this type of post I would be very surprised if said poster ever comes back here to genuinely engage in discussion.
I'm with this. People make mistakes and so long as they actively own up to it, I think we should be willing to forgive, even massive ones like supporting that shithead. On top of that, we are on the cusp of one of the most important elections in our history and so much is at stake, we need as many allies against Trump as possible. We can't continue to spite and hate people that genuinely realized their errors and want to do better, how does that help us? Pushing them away may possibly just sends them right back to being one of Trump's base, which means more votes and support for him, and I shouldn't have to point out this is the last thing we need now.
I think there's way too much desire to deny his ex-supporters forgiveness, just so we can continue to hate them and that's part of the problem too. This 'Them against us' narrative is the exact thing that Trump has thrived on and helped make an already existing split between right and left into the massive divide we're experiencing now. We need to be better than that and showing forgiveness when someone genuinely admits they fucked up is a starter.
If that's all they're going to post, then sure I'm OK with them staying out of the conversation. If they stay out and don't want to have a conversation, who really cares what they said, why let them get your goat?
Trump supporters had no excuse even back in 2015. Fuck every single one of them.
Sure, accept their blue vote this time around for those who have regrets, because y'all need every vote you can get... but don't let them off the hook for this, not ever.
Sure, accept their blue vote this time around for those who have regrets, because y'all need every vote you can get... but don't let them off the hook for this, not ever.
Beautifully said.
Part of coming to terms with institutionalized racism is a reckoning against the forces that aim to keep it. America made a major mistake in the south's "forgiveness" once, and now once again, horrible racist views are at the forefront of society. Its too late for forgiveness when no one is asking.
Should we allow them to take off their red hats in the sense of accepting sincere changes of heart, and the authentic development of empathy? Yes, we should want that for everyone. Which doesn't let them off the hook for racism, per se.
Should we allow them to act like they didn't throw their support behind a dangerous white supremacist and fascist, if they continue to support the party that aided and abetted him? Hell no.
Should we allow them to act like they didn't throw their support behind a dangerous white supremacist and fascist, if they continue to support the party that aided and abetted him? Hell no.
As people have already pointed out, those "errors" including lifelong damage. Trump ruined people's lives. People are dead and are dying even now due to not just his policies but his enabling of violent bigots. As a species our existence is more in peril now than it was in 2016 because of deliberate detrimental choices made by this administration in regards to climate change.
Let's get this straight: there is such a thing as unforgivable. There is such a thing as harming someone so bad that they want nothing to do with you. As Figboy said above, part of being an adult capable of growth and self awareness is realizing that that is true no matter how much you've personally reckoned with the harm you've done and not going through life only changing your hateful & harmful mindsets, choices and behaviors depending on how much kudos they get.
This whole"forgive for the sake of X" shit is particularly annoying when people are actually still in the middle of dealing with the fallout of Trump. We aren't past Trump or his BS at all. People are currently busy trying not to catch this virus while protesting & risking their lives against fired up, violent bigots for the sake of gaining the human rights this country has long since owed them. Hell black people who aren't even protesting have had to spend 2020 worrying (even more than usual) about when the next bigoted, Trump fanatic or Trump worshipping cop will put them in their crosshairs egged on by their god. Trump voters don't get to demand emotional labor from people who are right now fighting/dealing with the tide of destruction and they aren't owed it and to demand it from everyone "lest we lose this election" is fucking gross when we're only in danger of losing again because of all the regressive, inhumane & unjust actions of the despot they gave power to. The man currently dismantling voting access and heading the party of gerrymandering and voter suppression. Forgiveness is something to be earned through effort and not wrenched from people via blackmail tactics or guilt trips.
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Yup. If you let them go unscathed then expect it to happen all over again. Consequences matter.
Again, I just need ya'll to be specific here.
We're talking about white racist people.
Ya'll are super good at ignoring the racism at your dinner tables, so I don't know what's going to be different for the future.
Trump won almost every category of white voters. I've heard it said that no democratic candidate in the past several elections has won the majority white electorate. Don't feel like looking that up right now, but it sounds right.
I don't give one single fuck about forgiving an ex-trump supporter when we're concurrently dealing with the consequences of their votes four years ago (and likely years before that).
This thread is about forgiving white people for being racist because the racist they voted for did exactly what he said he was going to do.
It wasn't one statement, and multiple people since have double downed on it so it's obvious people feel that way.
Of course terrible things have been done to your people but this whole revenge fantasy that plays out here sometimes is a bit crazy to me.
Maybe spend less time worrying about shit that has no way of happening in reality and more time worrying about the conditions that would inspire such hatred.
People ARE angry and agitated and they have every right to be. You're crazy if you think any of the trumpers are actually getting their foreheads carved and it's not merely an apt reference - much like Inglorious Basterds, it's fantasy manifesting this rage because in reality they are not going to face any consequences for their actions. On the other hand their actions so far have had horrendous consequences for people they systematically give no shits about. People killed by cops on the street in broad daylight, fascists running over people with their car or shooting at them, trumpers wishing for the military to gun down protesters. Worry about that instead of people lashing out on a forum.
Never said anything about forget. You never forget, but you can forgive.
Talk to your racist family and friends. Don't let them forget they fucked up unless you feel they've actually leaned empathy. Otherwise expect "the civil war was about states rights" part two.
As an anglo american, my thoughts are that if a trump voter or a Brexit voter came to me and admitted that they were lied to, that their own ignorance and prejudice was used against them, and that they wanted to get out of those cults, then I would try to forgive them and treat them as a fellow citizen.
If those people do as I suspect they will, and try to write off their part while still subscribing to their poisnous ideologies then they can quite frankly fuck off and die.
If those people do as I suspect they will, and try to write off their part while still subscribing to their poisnous ideologies then they can quite frankly fuck off and die.
I can only speak for myself and no one else. I'm never forgiving a current racist. I can forgive someone who was raised racist or was racist and has changed yes. People should be allowed to grow and learn from mistakes.
I'm never going to forgive or feel sorry for people who are racist right now. Educate as best as we can for those coming up, but the true die hard Trump supporters now can fuck off. Like I said I get if people weren't paying much attention in 2016 when he wasn't as much of a known quantity and HRC was despiser by many. Doesn't make sense to me or people on here but not everyone pays attention all the time.
But now it's not a question. He has a true record. I'm not sure how I can forgive adults who are with him right now still.
Put away your lifetime movie revenge fantasy and just fucking vote, instead. History will make fools of them all.
"Forgive and forget!!!"
I'll never forgive and forget sociopaths. Never. And if you continue to remain on the train, then you're a fucking sociopath.
I'll never forgive and forget sociopaths. Never. And if you continue to remain on the train, then you're a fucking sociopath.
Why
Why should minorities, LGBTQ, women, and anyone else who told these fools the stove top was hot and is gonna burn us be forgiven, and why should we believe them?
Voting has been going swell for minorities the past few centuries white people have been in charge of this shithole country.
Maybe if white people held their family members and friends accountable for their racism voting would actually be motivational for black people. As it stands, we're just trying to staunch the blood from the wounds white voters continue to inflict on us year after year.
And we still do it because wounds are better than death.
To quote a young activist, "You're lucky we want equality and not revenge." So fuck out of here tut-tutting oppressed people for having "revenge fantasies" when we're the most reliable bloc preventing Republicans from running roughshod over this country.
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Depends on age
If they young and fully own up and now learned then yes
But if they like 25 and older then fuck them
If they young and fully own up and now learned then yes
But if they like 25 and older then fuck them
They'll have to do everything in their power to reverse Trumps evil deeds. Words are cheap. Repentance demands amends.
This is an idealism that people say but never actually mean. When people get punished for their stupidity killing someone they still get punishments severe enough that the point really ain't about rehabilitation but more about protecting the larger population from their stupidity.
When someone kills people from drunk driving google says you can get up to 15 years(probably different depending on the state maybe but the point still stands).
When you vote for mass murder (180k covid deaths)the punishment currently is nothing, so honestly you're getting fucking off for free for just being scorned(but even that is apparently too far as I've seen in a lot of threads lol).
You learning from a mistake that caused death is mostly for yourself the world should not be obligated to care to be honest.
Nepenthe EdibleKnife and skillzilla81 doing the work of the Gods ITT. I appreciate y'all immensely. Blessed be to you.
Also some of the rest of you need to go check out the Paradox of Tolerance. Because all the caveats, whataboutisms, and forgivey wankfesting are exceptionally naive, privileged, and simply wrong.
The intolerant, and their views, must be outside of the realm of tolerance themselves and held accountable to their communities as such.
Also, (quoting myself from a different thread) consider this:
Maybe prioritizing our family and friends over people who are being murdered and systemically oppressed is actually the wrong thing to do. Maybe it actually makes the oppression worse when we distribute our interpersonal work this way. Please interrogate why, exactly, you think people who share your DNA deserve more from you than other human beings who objectively suffer far more.
If I have more food than I need, and my parents also have a full pantry, then I'm obviously going to give my food to someone who actually fucking needs it. Now replace "food" with "attention" or "effort" or "compassion" or "emotional labor" or "basic fucking human rights" and see how your actions and priorities change.
Everybody I meet is my family, and some of them clearly need support more than others. My fellow white folks, please get on my fuckin' level. Y'all got the inborn privilege available to do such a thing. I believe in you.
Stop clutching your pearls trying to give racist-ass Meemaw and Peepaw their third, fourth, five-billionth chance to be decent people to anyone different from themselves, and start thinking about putting the brunt of your privileges where they really matter.
Generally speaking, if you aren't the matriarch or patriarch (or enbyarch?) in the pecking order in your family, there's very little chance your elders are going to listen to you anyway. Conservatives believe strongly in hierarchies and authoritarian dynamics. They listen to fear and they listen to power, and we typically don't fucking have those leverages on our side against our parents and our grandparents.
If they're willing to change, by all means try your best, but otherwise...please ask yourself if your efforts would be more effective if you considered every black person your family. Or every immigrant.
I can't tolerate someone talking about how an immigrant woman fleeing to another country to escape abuse deserves to suffer, because IMO that woman is my family. She may as well be my sister, my mother, she may as well be me. I have more in common with her, than I do with my racist family members. Who really deserves my attention in this scenario?
Not my blood relatives, that's for damn sure. They had chances. So, so, so many chances. They chose this. They don't deserve my attention, and they certainly aren't entitled to be given it for free at the expense of others who don't have so many egregious intergenerational boons gifted to them.
Also some of the rest of you need to go check out the Paradox of Tolerance. Because all the caveats, whataboutisms, and forgivey wankfesting are exceptionally naive, privileged, and simply wrong.
The intolerant, and their views, must be outside of the realm of tolerance themselves and held accountable to their communities as such.
Also, (quoting myself from a different thread) consider this:
Maybe prioritizing our family and friends over people who are being murdered and systemically oppressed is actually the wrong thing to do. Maybe it actually makes the oppression worse when we distribute our interpersonal work this way. Please interrogate why, exactly, you think people who share your DNA deserve more from you than other human beings who objectively suffer far more.
If I have more food than I need, and my parents also have a full pantry, then I'm obviously going to give my food to someone who actually fucking needs it. Now replace "food" with "attention" or "effort" or "compassion" or "emotional labor" or "basic fucking human rights" and see how your actions and priorities change.
Everybody I meet is my family, and some of them clearly need support more than others. My fellow white folks, please get on my fuckin' level. Y'all got the inborn privilege available to do such a thing. I believe in you.
Stop clutching your pearls trying to give racist-ass Meemaw and Peepaw their third, fourth, five-billionth chance to be decent people to anyone different from themselves, and start thinking about putting the brunt of your privileges where they really matter.
Generally speaking, if you aren't the matriarch or patriarch (or enbyarch?) in the pecking order in your family, there's very little chance your elders are going to listen to you anyway. Conservatives believe strongly in hierarchies and authoritarian dynamics. They listen to fear and they listen to power, and we typically don't fucking have those leverages on our side against our parents and our grandparents.
If they're willing to change, by all means try your best, but otherwise...please ask yourself if your efforts would be more effective if you considered every black person your family. Or every immigrant.
I can't tolerate someone talking about how an immigrant woman fleeing to another country to escape abuse deserves to suffer, because IMO that woman is my family. She may as well be my sister, my mother, she may as well be me. I have more in common with her, than I do with my racist family members. Who really deserves my attention in this scenario?
Not my blood relatives, that's for damn sure. They had chances. So, so, so many chances. They chose this. They don't deserve my attention, and they certainly aren't entitled to be given it for free at the expense of others who don't have so many egregious intergenerational boons gifted to them.
There are several very real posts ITT but damn, I feel like this one takes the cake.
White folks, we ARE fuckin' lucky. Stop bitching and be grateful. And do something worthwhile with the privileges we inherited from our racist-ass ancestors by dismantling the fuck outta their legacies. Piss on their graves. IDGAF.
i mean, i own in political conversations with people that i voted for Hillary in the 2016 Democratic Primary
it's a choice I still reflect on quite a bit
i certainly feel like people who voted for Trump need to do some introspection, too, as well as put in work to make up for being on the side of such a malevolent force in the world
and even then, no one will owe them anything, whether forgiveness or respect or whatever else
it's a choice I still reflect on quite a bit
i certainly feel like people who voted for Trump need to do some introspection, too, as well as put in work to make up for being on the side of such a malevolent force in the world
and even then, no one will owe them anything, whether forgiveness or respect or whatever else
I hear you, bro. No one is saying you aren't being gaslit, abused and disenfranchised by this administration. I believe and support you 1000%.
Yes, there are white people who would want nothing more than to go back to Jim Crow era America, BUT there are also white people who do fight for equality and who do hold their loved ones accountable. You are not alone.
If you want to let fleeting visions of cariving swastikas in pasty, inbred foreheads motivate you to change this injustice, fine, I won't tell you how to feel. But, in Armenian culture we always say that the best revenge is to survive.