We need to have a new constitutional convention to institute major electoral and representational reform. There would not be enough agreement to pass those reforms so instead our only choice is paralysis and decay.
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Should The United States Break Up?
- Thread starter Archmage
- Start date
I have a feeling any sort of break up would not go the way most people imagine it would and somehow the rich, the racists, the corporations, the military, the prisons/cops would all get more powerful and most normal people and especially disenfranchised would end up way, way worse. Instead of some sort of Nordic democracy utopia vs KlansLand, you'd end up with multiple corporate dystopian states with indentured servitude.
This is where I'm at. If this shit is going down you bet your white ass I'm making sure my black ass is not suffering alone.
All my performative white liberal homegirls and boys are knuckling up too.
Yep. Lets burn Netflix because of Chapelle but hey, lets split up the US so black folks could get stuck in states that want to keep them poor, in prison, or worse.
Plenty of minorities here Have spoken their piece on this, but as a well off but not rich white dude who lives in a blue state (Illinois) I'd honestly be one of the big winners from such a change if it happened. Assuming the logistical issues sort themselves with time, I have the money and resources to weather the early turmoil, I live in the blue area, and I'd probably benefit from any improvements to health care. It's a huge mistake to assume people with power don't want change in general because they like the status quo. They don't like big changes that UPSET the status quo, but they absolutely love changes that reinforce it, and this would absolutely be one of those. The people in charge of blue state areas would not look or likely act significantly different from how the democrats are now. White liberals would have the ability to keep their status quo without worrying about the people they abandoned because that's all such a change would achieve. Because the margins between conservatives and liberals isn't that big even in hard blue areas you'd likely still have a Republican Party that has the same general beliefs and fights for the same seats on a local and state level, so the idea that you'd get a far left democratic government is honestly ridiculous
I don't think anyone is suggesting there is, or in particular that breaking up the US is.
The political system in this country as is, is broken [I'd argue beyond repair], there is no meaningful representation for vast swathes of the population all over the place at all levels of government (this also includes conservatives in CA fwiw), this does not seem like a sustainable set up.
So talking about breaking up this giant land mass into smaller parts seems like a reasonable point of discussion.
Obviously this would have to entail that creating these new nations would involve a process of creating a better foundation, new constitution, getting rid of winner takes all, overall bringing the political system into the 21st century. If it just ends up with Texas being stuck with Greg Abbot and a gerrymandered state legislation on the foundation of the same old broken constitution then it would not actually help anyone...
This is also where the comparison with the EU is stupid because while also large and very diverse it's not running all of its constituent parts on a beta version of Democracy developed 250 years ago...
OP, you have to realize that just picking up and moving somewhere else, especially for minorities that have been behind the financial and legal 8-ball for decades/centuries, is not feasible. I live in NC, am a cis white male with a decent job, am married with 3 kids and my wife has a better job than me, and it wouldn't be easy for us either. Imagine folks worse off and their plight. Unfortunately, Democrats have proven utterly inept at doing much of anything but keeping the money train going for the elites and being "better" by virtue of Republicans being the only other option; forgive me for thinking they'd welcome their fellow American refugees without any meaningful plan in place.
If it's a north-south split again, millions of good people are left to rot and suffer.
If it's urban-rural, the same applies. Plenty of innocent people live in the country.
I am pessimistic, and think this is going to happen eventually. It could be well into the 2050s, but it will happen. Every empire rises and falls...unless they adapt. America is no different. Unless a new charter to replace the Constitution can be drafted and accepted, we as a whole nation and people are screwed. And the apparatus to make those changes is almost impossible to make work today.
If it's a north-south split again, millions of good people are left to rot and suffer.
If it's urban-rural, the same applies. Plenty of innocent people live in the country.
I am pessimistic, and think this is going to happen eventually. It could be well into the 2050s, but it will happen. Every empire rises and falls...unless they adapt. America is no different. Unless a new charter to replace the Constitution can be drafted and accepted, we as a whole nation and people are screwed. And the apparatus to make those changes is almost impossible to make work today.
I think the United States needs a reboot to its entire system at such a fundamental level that anything short of violent conflict isn't going to do it. I'd love to be wrong about that because too many historically oppressed, repressed and underserved populations of people would disproportionately suffer from it.
So sacrifice our entire generation and still have the equal possibility of securing an even more fucked up and oppressive government for future generations. Sounds like a great gamble.
When I see these topics come up before, usually they come from someone well meaning or at least ignorant to how a split couldn't possibly work. OP has practically admitted they were fishing for a specific outcome. Consequences be damned.
I don't think it's a good idea to hang everyone who happens to live in a red state out to dry for any reason.
I just don't see how it works. State are pretty much red except the larger Cities and college towns in each.
As a Louisville resident myself, I'm pretty sure that if Kentucky became a country the rest of the state wouldn't want us to come anyway, going by comment sections and Facebook post. The new consti would say, "EXCEPT LOUISVILLE," in big red letters. I'd feel bad leaving Lexington behind.
I mean one option primarily changing voting rights and the other requires changing pretty every aspect of our current society.
I'm not saying passing updated voting rights is easy but breaking up the entire country is not on the same level
If we had to pick one, civil war is probably the better choice honestly
Folks are angry, and think that some country-wide divorce would solve things. It's like when folks think a civil war would reset all our issues.
It's insane, but I get it.
It's also possible the ones who voted No are in places like red states without any means to leave their situation and don't want to be abandoned to to wolves of the GOP
Yeah. Same with Russia and China. Big and strong countries mean bad things for the rest of the world. The smaller the country, the less power it have to fuck the life of people.
I think a world formed by a lot of smaller countries would be a lot better that the one we have.
I think a world formed by a lot of smaller countries would be a lot better that the one we have.
The US is already a dying state so break up is inevitable. The question shouldnt be SHOULD the US break up then but rather HOW.
Canada for instance is the only country on Earth to have secession laws for Provinces. Laws allowing states to leave the republic of their own volition rather than ALL states leaving at once is probably the best option with the least blood shed.
Canada for instance is the only country on Earth to have secession laws for Provinces. Laws allowing states to leave the republic of their own volition rather than ALL states leaving at once is probably the best option with the least blood shed.
We would need a privately-funded program to get people out of those states and into safe states, if we are doing that it seems like the better thing to do would be to get people like us into purple states and then start filling out red states to ensure republicans aren't elected there
I mean I'd argue that's why we should try to avoid a break up in the first place, but also you're also assuming an "amicable solution" with no combat is possible which it frankly isn't. Red states rely too much on funds from blue states, and blue states need food from red states. Even an "amicable" solution would just be an agreement made in order to muster forces for active war, and because the red states would likely be funding the military to the detriment of the population and a blue state in such a scenario would only exist because the people there were willing to abandon others for their own benefit, I imagine it'd lead to a fascist takeover regardless.
In contrast a civil war right now would probably favor the left. We have the population advantage and currently control pretty much every major city. The military currently skews republican, but not by so much that this couldn't be overcome by training new volunteers. While the right would control most agricultural areas, it'd be much easier to seize those for the left than for the right to seize the areas of industry. It's not a sure bet, but literally nothing is. Would there be a lot of suffering and death? Yes but that's true of literally any situation where a major country collapses
Think deeper.
Wasn't the UK a major world power in very recent history, fucking up whole hemispheres?
Only if it allows for people in south to move north with relocation assistance. Meaning the government will pay. Otherwise millions will be fucked by the trumpers and the gop
Only if we could exchange all the people trapped in red states who don't want to be there with people in blue states that want to be in their red state utopia.
This wouldn't beasibly happen, and besides, the second the split happened in that scenario, the red states would immediately attack the blue states.
This wouldn't beasibly happen, and besides, the second the split happened in that scenario, the red states would immediately attack the blue states.
This is obviously the more likely scenario, but the OP is roleplaying fantasy government where their own thoughts are what's better for everyone else, so what're you going to do.
Glad to know the OP is willing to throw all the minorities, the marginalized communities, the impoverished and needy to red states that would doubtless continue altering their laws and creating a massive human rights hotbed nation of people who were once their neighbors, friends, family. Telling all the women in red states it's okay to not have autonomy of their body, the transitioning kids it's okay to not have their life affirming medication, gay couples that they don't need the same rights as other domestic partners. Because they can all fuck off in their red states, am I right?
This is beyond a dumb conversation and considering some of the bigger, dumber ideas I see shut down by mods I'm incredulous we're allowing a conversation on the site that is basically, "should we give up on not only a significant portion of the American population, but specifically people even on this very website." No, no you shouldn't fucking abandon us, and even if you could it certainly would not fix the fucking problems.
Anyone who entertains the thought of letting the chuds have their theocracy is implicitly saying that it's fine if millions of people suffer under it. It's a completely disgusting and morally bankrupt thing to suggest. Also, it's not like they could just "have" their evil backwards new country without affecting others, as they would likely try to attack and conquer their neighbors immediately.
The US should dissolve and be replaced by something better.
The US should dissolve and be replaced by something better.
As a non american living near the US, im very concerned about this tal about hoping or expecting civil war given idek what would happen when a country with nukes decides to fight itself
One side is actively rooting for, arming themselves for, and plotting a civil war, while simultaneously plotting to steal all elections
Donald Trump sparks backlash over post calling for ‘civil war’
Former President Donald Trump is sparking backlash again, this time for a social media post he shared that appeared to […] The post Donald Trump sparks backlash over post calling for ‘civil war’ appeared first on TheGrio.
Its either civil war or let them take over, I don't see what else could possibly happen in America in the next few years
Maybe the conversation OP is suggesting is actually the better outcome
Some y'all really need to take a step back and look at the us. Like just geographically look at it.
Forget that you fuck all sorts of minorities who are stuck in states where they will get obliterated when they literally won't be able to leave.
Disregard how our entire power grid is interconnected, and it would be a clusterfuck to figure out.
Wealth. Resources. Corporations. Military.
There are literally entire states that simply couldn't survive by themselves. You already see how evil folks can get. People in the US don't give a damn about foreign policies and affairs RIGHT NOW. Why will folks in Michigan gonna care if North Dakota goes to war with Montana? Who defends Texas from Mexico? What happens when Minnesota forms a treaty to become part of Canada? What happens when the dictator in DC says you will send tributes, or they send nukes?
Even less crazy, how does a place like Pennsylvania survive without food and resources from the Midwest?
Love it or no, we're a dysfunctional family that needs to figure it the fuck out.
Forget that you fuck all sorts of minorities who are stuck in states where they will get obliterated when they literally won't be able to leave.
Disregard how our entire power grid is interconnected, and it would be a clusterfuck to figure out.
Wealth. Resources. Corporations. Military.
There are literally entire states that simply couldn't survive by themselves. You already see how evil folks can get. People in the US don't give a damn about foreign policies and affairs RIGHT NOW. Why will folks in Michigan gonna care if North Dakota goes to war with Montana? Who defends Texas from Mexico? What happens when Minnesota forms a treaty to become part of Canada? What happens when the dictator in DC says you will send tributes, or they send nukes?
Even less crazy, how does a place like Pennsylvania survive without food and resources from the Midwest?
Love it or no, we're a dysfunctional family that needs to figure it the fuck out.
~40% of the forum needs a chance to show their ass, apparently.
So to be honest I can actually understand the arguement that if you think the only options are between half of the country living under a fascist dystopia or 100% than choosing to abandon half is still the better option, but if this is what you truly believe, that sacrifices are truly necessary to minimize harm, then I'm going to ask you: what would you personally be willing to sacrifice in such a scenario? Would you trade your home with a minority living in a red state and help them move at the expense of being one of the people stuck in this dystopia society? Especially if you're a white, you'd likely be better off under it than the black person and thus by the philosophy of harm reduction this would likely be better than you saving yourself? Would you put yourself at risk to smuggle people out of red country? Or would you relax back in your home and lament how argue it is how they're being treated and then get back to your happy life while they suffer?
I'm as liberal as they come in tx and would love to be separated from the right, but this post is baaaaaad. It just speaks like someone who lives in an area that fully matches their view point. It doesn't bring up at all to blue people in red states and vice versa. Also, how do you draw that line? America has an insane amount of moderates and people who switch sides. They just gonna keep moving back and forth? Way too simple of a solution (that couldn't work) to a problem that requires so much more work.