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Should the term "Metroidvania" Be Abolished? (The Jimquisition)
- Thread starter It’s Time To Go
- Start date
yeah..and it was awful -.- won´t forget my sad face when i didn´t know how to go on as a kiddo...screw this game, far too obscure for anyone
I've heard some people say that Metroidvania should be used for those games that apply more RPG elements like the Castlevania games did, while Metroid-like would be used for those games without those elements (like Axiom Verge).
Clearly it never really caught on, but it's interesting to think about.
Sure, but rogue has a very different meaning than Rogue so it's confusing there too.
Yes. Terms like Metroidvania and Soulsbourne are garbage.
They might be useful shorthand in some communities but if you were to pitch something like Hallow Knight to a random person on the street by saying its a "Metroidvania" they'd just look at you like your stupid. The word does nothing to communicate WHAT the game is unless you already have predefined knowledge of other video games and its a garbage term because of it.
They might be useful shorthand in some communities but if you were to pitch something like Hallow Knight to a random person on the street by saying its a "Metroidvania" they'd just look at you like your stupid. The word does nothing to communicate WHAT the game is unless you already have predefined knowledge of other video games and its a garbage term because of it.
This 100%.
The term persists because games following this "mold" haven't been able to escape the shadows of Super Metroid and SotN. The genre needs more innovation to genericize the genre out of its label.
Pathfinder is a good term, but the "-like" naming is also good, as stated in the video. Metroidvanias are rarely like either Metroid or Castlevania. They are like that one Castlevania (and five following games from the same guy, but not all games from the same guy) that borrows from one of the Metroid games. Metroidvanias should be more like SOTNlikes (read as soten-like).
And Pathfinder is just some D&D derived tabletop game.
And Pathfinder is just some D&D derived tabletop game.
You only say that because you, through years of exposure, understand what first person shooter means as far as genre conventions go and why, say, Skyrim isn't one, while Hexen would be.
Unlike those paragons of descriptiveness
Role Playing Game
Action Role Playing Game
Adventure Game
Puzzle Game
But I know, movies are so much better, right?
Drama
Action
Romance
Fantasy
With any jargon you need to either assume basic knowledge or provide it. if I am talking to my sister's husband I'll start off with "oh, it is like Dark Souls". If that fails I will then explain the idea of slower more methodical combat, death penalties, emphasis on boss fights, etc.
As for the topic at hand: We still call games roguelikes and roguelites and people lose their minds over whether there is a 't' or a 'k' in that word. Who gives a shit?
Nobody got together and agreed that we should start using the term in the first place, so why would everyone get together and agree to use something else? That's not how things work.
Honestly, now that I watched it, it was actually a pleasant break from the usual episodes :)
IIRC, we called them "adventure platformers" before everyone started acting like Metroid/SotN invented the style.
First Person Shooter literally describes what it is though... a shooter game from the first person. Lmao.
So why Skyrim isn't one? I'm a person untouched by gaming, please explain! I just thought it meant you shoot the first person you see?
Skyrim's not a first person shooter because you can swing a sword in third person if you want.
A real first person shooter is a game like Portal.
Yeah it's like RPG. You could take that in a super vague way just reading "role playing game" because then like anything where you're playing a character is technically playing that role. Which obviously there's more to it than just the face value.
It is an immaterial question, considering that the term has been around for almost 20 years, the word is just not going to suddenly get zapped from the vernacular just because some people loathe it.
Pathfinder is way too vague of a term.
As a linguistics enthusiast, I have to agree with this. Language always evolves naturally and it's why sticking to a dictionary is a fools errand. Dictionaries are always playing catch up to the language they're meant to compile. As long as people keep using a word it's going to stick.
People use Metroidvania and as long as people understand what it means, it'll continue to be used.
I kind of wish people would trying to push "soulsborne" as a genre. We already have terms to describe Dark Souls and Bloodborne. They're action RPGs. Does the vague story telling, healing system and losing currency upon death system really warrant a whole new genre to describe them?
As a linguistics enthusiast, I have to agree with this. Language always evolves naturally and it's why sticking to a dictionary is a fools errand. Dictionaries are always playing catch up to the language they're meant to compile. As long as people keep using a word it's going to stick.
People use Metroidvania and as long as people understand what it means, it'll continue to be used.
I kind of wish people would trying to push "soulsborne" as a genre. We already have terms to describe Dark Souls and Bloodborne. They're action RPGs. Does the vague story telling, healing system and losing currency upon death system really warrant a whole new genre to describe them?
it's longer and doesn't quite roll off the tongue well, but I've always preferred "non-linear platformers" or more recently "Adventure platformers"
I'm always confused by pundits who think that they personally (or their audience collectively) can decide to just change the ingrained vocabulary of millions of people in one fell swoop. Go tilt at more windmills, I say.
The unexpected Terminator praise/sex scene discussion at the beginning gave me a good laugh.
In terms of the Metroidvania discussion, Jim did a good job presenting the "critics" arguments and then defending/presenting counter arguments on why Metroidvania works/why isn't not really an issue for a "sub genre". I really liked the point he made about Platformer vs "Mario Like" and how "Mario Like" would actually be more accessible/easier to understand for general audiences than platformer. That said, many companies that make games that fall under the "Metroidvania" genre already create more "accessible" genres/descriptions for their games anyway. For example, the Hollow Knight website says the game is a "2D Action Adventure" and the Bloodstained section on 505 Games website calls it's game a "gothic horror action side-scrolling RPG".
In terms of the Metroidvania discussion, Jim did a good job presenting the "critics" arguments and then defending/presenting counter arguments on why Metroidvania works/why isn't not really an issue for a "sub genre". I really liked the point he made about Platformer vs "Mario Like" and how "Mario Like" would actually be more accessible/easier to understand for general audiences than platformer. That said, many companies that make games that fall under the "Metroidvania" genre already create more "accessible" genres/descriptions for their games anyway. For example, the Hollow Knight website says the game is a "2D Action Adventure" and the Bloodstained section on 505 Games website calls it's game a "gothic horror action side-scrolling RPG".
Which is weird because aside from Zelda II, the Zelda games completely lack mechanics drawn from tabletop RPGs to warrant the name.
Which is how I define Role-Playing Games in general. Anything that draws its mechanics from the tabletop original DnD.
I also have a problem with the name ... but just "why the hell is castlevania there?" because
1) at the point of the genre creation most castlevanias aren't even a metroidvania
2) castlevania symphony of the night is a good game, but didn't add anything to the genre. I mean it has rpg elements but not having lvl up does not take Hollow Knight from the genre.
1) at the point of the genre creation most castlevanias aren't even a metroidvania
2) castlevania symphony of the night is a good game, but didn't add anything to the genre. I mean it has rpg elements but not having lvl up does not take Hollow Knight from the genre.
reminds me of when people weren't happy when the League of Legends devs coined the genre "moba" because of how generic it was (Multiplayer online battle arena) but it stuck regardless.
Sometimes a term just need to roll of the tongue well enough (and be first) and it'll suffice to catch on. Same with rogue like/lite or walking simulator.
Sometimes a term just need to roll of the tongue well enough (and be first) and it'll suffice to catch on. Same with rogue like/lite or walking simulator.
I think the only genre I would want to have actively changed is "walking simulator" since it seems to be born from a petty asshole reductionist gamer mindset.
But then you have people that use ARPG to describe stuff cut from the same cloth as Diablo.
It's a fucking mess.
Did Metroid even add enough to warrant being a new genre? Isn't it really just an action-adventure game like Zelda but in 2D with platforming?
Really at this point genre labels just exist to facilitate finding games you like. Metroidvania = "ah yes, it's like Metroid and SotN."
I always thoguth (back then) that Metroidvania is just the name of Castlevania games that have the world design of Metroid games. Before SOTN Castlevania was a pure linear action platformer. And I would even make the difference between a Metroid and a Metroidvania, if such a game has big RPG elements, which can be used as a roadblock or pure roadblocks based on items that you can aquire.
But that's just me :D
But that's just me :D
I wouldn't call it a mess, it's just vague. It's vague because you can do a lot of things with the APRG template. Is that really a problem? If you want something like Diablo, well we already do that. We already describe games as "a lot like Diablo/Dark Souls/Zelda/etc". At this point the genre label is more like a signposting. Pointing you in a direction where more in-depth discussion can determine whether you will like the game or not.
It's kinda funny to me that he mentions how not-actually-descriptive "platformer" is compared to "Mario-like", considering how long it took me to figure out what "platformer" meant originally.
For a long time, Mario was the only "platformer" I was familiar with, and it was on Nintendo's "platform", so, (without quite having these words to use either), I thought "platformer" meant "first-party game". I think I managed to think this until the late N64/early GameCube days when third-party/multiplatform/other-platform games started making their way onto my radar, and I heard one too many obviously-not-first-party games described as "platformers" and several things described as "3D platformers" and eventually figured out my mistake.
I'm fine with Metroidvania as a genre name, and I agree with Jim's take in the video that the alternatives that people propose are never quite specific enough to exclude and include all the right things. I also agree that we might as well just say "Metroid-like", but "Metroidvania" is more fun to say.
I prefer the action-RTS (ARTS) suggestion I've heard. It kinda covers the "action game kind of combat but constrained within an RTS framework" nature of it.
For a long time, Mario was the only "platformer" I was familiar with, and it was on Nintendo's "platform", so, (without quite having these words to use either), I thought "platformer" meant "first-party game". I think I managed to think this until the late N64/early GameCube days when third-party/multiplatform/other-platform games started making their way onto my radar, and I heard one too many obviously-not-first-party games described as "platformers" and several things described as "3D platformers" and eventually figured out my mistake.
I'm fine with Metroidvania as a genre name, and I agree with Jim's take in the video that the alternatives that people propose are never quite specific enough to exclude and include all the right things. I also agree that we might as well just say "Metroid-like", but "Metroidvania" is more fun to say.
Yeah, this one bothered me, too. When I first heard about that genre, I learned "Dota" as the genre name. LoL would have been "a Dota" to me. I've since adjusted to MOBA but it is a pretty terrible name. Taken at face value it sounds like it should include any game in which multiple people fight in an "arena" online. So some fighting games, most FPS games, arguably Fortnite, Overwatch, etc.
I prefer the action-RTS (ARTS) suggestion I've heard. It kinda covers the "action game kind of combat but constrained within an RTS framework" nature of it.
I liked when he said that even tough Metroidvania does nothing to explain to unknowing people what it is, when you're at a point that you're starting to look at subgenres of videogames, you're very likely to know what either Metroid or Castlevania are.
2D Backtracker might be the most apt name I've seen suggested over the years.
i believe the non-pejorative term is "Environmental Narrative Game"
But that doesn't work, because pretty much any type of game can have backtracking in it. Even some first person shooters have backtracking. You're still not describing a Metroidvania.
I mean, I don't think it'll change but it's an interesting discussion to have from a linguistics standpoint.
On the face of it, Metroidvania is a bit clunky. Just a mash up of two series who themselves haven't always stuck to the same rules as the subgenre. And while it is still technically a subgenre, it is one popular enough for it to be the go to descriptor for many who cover games.
As Jim says, the problem is coming up with a new word that is broad enough to cover the genre without being so broad as to be meaningless, so yeah, I don't expect a new term for a while, if at all.
On the face of it, Metroidvania is a bit clunky. Just a mash up of two series who themselves haven't always stuck to the same rules as the subgenre. And while it is still technically a subgenre, it is one popular enough for it to be the go to descriptor for many who cover games.
As Jim says, the problem is coming up with a new word that is broad enough to cover the genre without being so broad as to be meaningless, so yeah, I don't expect a new term for a while, if at all.
I see no problem with in way showing props to giants in their field by way of likening newer games to them, or defining a genre around them. (Roguelike, Metroidvania).
We call back to literature all the time for situations or narrative devices. "It's a Catch 22." "A Faustian bargain".
We call back to literature all the time for situations or narrative devices. "It's a Catch 22." "A Faustian bargain".