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Should the term "Metroidvania" Be Abolished? (The Jimquisition)
- Thread starter It’s Time To Go
- Start date
I think all gamers know what type of game the term refers to. As for non-gamers, I have a feeling they'd be just as confused by JRPG, WRPG, SRPG, RTS, and other terms, until someone explains it to them.
The '-vania' portion of the name always seemed completely redundant to me. It only refers to those Castlevania games which are like metroid so whats the point? I mean, we didn't go through a phase of FPS's being referred to as 'Wolfendooms'.
FPSs stopped being called Doom Clones around the time they fundamentally moved away from Doom's framework. Open World games similarly stopped being GTA clones for similar reasons.
Metroidvania sticks around because a lot of these games havent fundamentally moved past Super Metroid and SotN.
Pretty much this.
The term seems to work for people and it's not inherently more confusing to a layman than the term "RTS" would be.
Jim: "It's pretty easy to explain what a Metroidvania is."
Shows footage of Dead Cells. Not that easy, clearly.
Shows footage of Dead Cells. Not that easy, clearly.
As a linguist I find genre discussions highly interesting and like that Jim tackles this question (I remember his video about 'consumer'). I don't think the term is going anywhere in near future. Further than that it's highly unlikely to predict what happens with language and expressions.
i don´t like the term these days... i think it is thrown around too much. when Star Wars Jedi was called Metroidvania i was legit upset. the connotation is just not there.
yeah lol
yeah lol
Good answer, feel like the same applies to "Soulsborne" as a "genre"
Glad Jim criticizes the way people talk about genre as though it's a strict list of crystal-clear elements (and believe me I've been plenty guilty of this before) rather than a tool to help suggest rough similarity between games. The latter is the only thing that makes sense, is massively subjective, and often involves labels that don't describe what they're applied to. And that's fine.
anyway, either Lumines is a roguelike or Enter the Gungeon isn't thanks
anyway, either Lumines is a roguelike or Enter the Gungeon isn't thanks
A genre name is only worth anything if people know what you're talking about. "Fighting games" and "Beat 'em Ups" should, by any other measure, be awful genre names, because how many games involve fighting or beating things up? But they work because everyone knows what they actually mean.
Same thing with Metroidvanias.
Same thing with Metroidvanias.
The weird part about the term Metroidvania is that a Metroid is something very different to a Castlevania. I get that there's a spectrum where games have features of both, but still it's a very mushy term.
As always I remember there was a short period of time on the old place where folks tried to make "pathfinder game" REALLY happen, but it never took.
Also, I think we should bring back "Doom clone," because FPS should only stand for frames-per-second.
we have roguelikes
we later had roguelites too
we have JRPGs made in America and WRPGs made in Japan, and both devs are adding a bunch of Strategy elements into their respective games
fromsoft fans are adding an extra word to their SoulsBorneKiro genre every time Miyazaki announces a new IP where you die more than once
we have like three different genres that basically mean "there's a bunch of projectiles and you gotta dodge 'em"
A super detailed game that prioritizes immersiveness and atmosphere where you play a janitor does not count as a role playing game, because there's no leveling up. But the game still really *feels* like you play as a janitor.
The game's literally called PLAYSTATION ALLSTARS BATTLE ROYALE why isn't this the same genre as fortnite
what the fuck does Indie even mean these days?
I can come up with a bunch more rhetorical examples (of varying validity), but I think the dumb genre name of "Metroidvania" fits in perfectly fine with all the other dumb names we've made up over the years to describe games. It's not perfect. But it's fine. I understand perfectly what one means when you say the game's like a Metroidvania.
we later had roguelites too
we have JRPGs made in America and WRPGs made in Japan, and both devs are adding a bunch of Strategy elements into their respective games
fromsoft fans are adding an extra word to their SoulsBorneKiro genre every time Miyazaki announces a new IP where you die more than once
we have like three different genres that basically mean "there's a bunch of projectiles and you gotta dodge 'em"
A super detailed game that prioritizes immersiveness and atmosphere where you play a janitor does not count as a role playing game, because there's no leveling up. But the game still really *feels* like you play as a janitor.
The game's literally called PLAYSTATION ALLSTARS BATTLE ROYALE why isn't this the same genre as fortnite
what the fuck does Indie even mean these days?
I can come up with a bunch more rhetorical examples (of varying validity), but I think the dumb genre name of "Metroidvania" fits in perfectly fine with all the other dumb names we've made up over the years to describe games. It's not perfect. But it's fine. I understand perfectly what one means when you say the game's like a Metroidvania.
I never understood why the vania bit .. no one says beatoasis when describing a sort of music now do they..
Neither of those really have the same punch, though.
And Pathfinder, as people have mentioned, will inevitably bring at least some confusion with the tabletop game
i wish people would stop using it because studios start to favor more linear, stage based action games instead :P
For Metroidvania I think it's modtly because it's kind of a fun name.
I still call em doom clones .. shooters are things like Galaga and Ikaruga..
..now get off my lawn
You play the role of Mario in SMB.
That's not what RPG means.
Help, I am having Oblivion notepad.exe flashbacks.
Can't watch the video right now but will watch it later
People always get unreasonably annoyed at genre names for games, but if the name conveys what the game is like, then it works as a genre name
If I say Metroidvania, people know what I mean, same for Character Action game
You're not required to like these terms, but if I say them and you know what kind of game I'm talking about, they serve their purpose
Terms like Role Playing Game or First Person Shooter are just as vague and dumb but people rarely kick up a fuss about those
People always get unreasonably annoyed at genre names for games, but if the name conveys what the game is like, then it works as a genre name
If I say Metroidvania, people know what I mean, same for Character Action game
You're not required to like these terms, but if I say them and you know what kind of game I'm talking about, they serve their purpose
Terms like Role Playing Game or First Person Shooter are just as vague and dumb but people rarely kick up a fuss about those
Honestly, if Metroidvania was a big Triple-A genre, the marketing geniuses at the big studios would have almost certainly developed a "proper" term for them like how they made Doom clones "First Person Shooters" and GTA clones "Open World Sandboxes" so people don't think of their products as cheap knock-offs chasing a trend. The fact that the genre is mostly kept alive by the indie scene is probably why the term has stuck, since they want the association with Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night and for people to think of them when they think of what they're doing.
Sure, but Metroidvania means nothing to people not familiar with both games. I agree it's not quite as catchy, but it's more functional, which is more important.
I wasn't aware of the board game though, but I doubt people are gonna confuse the two tbh.
And, honestly, I dont think it should even be Soulsborne, since Bloodborne is even more fundamentally closer to Souls than the other clones (even if it obviously has the excuse of being by the same people)
Would like to tack on that Riot literally created the term MOBA out of thin air so that LoL wasn't called a Dota-Clone.
Also, MOBA is a fucking terrible genre name, but again, when you call something a MOBA, people know what you mean.
i just don´t like how dumbed down the term is "yeah it has metroidvania elements" while talking about SW: Jedi. it is an insult to the original term...
Metroidvania of the gen would be Hollow Knight to me. nailed the "lost" feeling, surprised many times, had the feel of an great adventure, the mystery was there.
i understand when people say "yeah Rise of the Tomb Raider had Metroidvania elements" but that is not what the genre is about...it is not only about getting items somewhere to unlock the next area, it is about a mystery, about finding the way when you think there is no way anymore. Axiom Verge was also a great example of such a game, it leaves you in the dark mostly.
Metroidvania of the gen would be Hollow Knight to me. nailed the "lost" feeling, surprised many times, had the feel of an great adventure, the mystery was there.
i understand when people say "yeah Rise of the Tomb Raider had Metroidvania elements" but that is not what the genre is about...it is not only about getting items somewhere to unlock the next area, it is about a mystery, about finding the way when you think there is no way anymore. Axiom Verge was also a great example of such a game, it leaves you in the dark mostly.
I love Pathfinder.
Exactly.
Metroidvania was already misused far too often. It's now taken a different meaning of its own over the years from so many people calling any game designed like Metroid to be a Metroidvania. It's to the point that people know what to expect when you say a game is a Metroidvania, as wrong as it is.
Honestly, it seems like a strange argument. So much of our modern language emerges in the same way. Consider terms like 'beating around the bush' and 'cat got your tongue' and 'a different kettle of fish' - the argument that they don't clearly relate what they mean is just as valid. The context is lost but the meaning remains through conventional use. The bespoke language of every field evolves like this and video games will be no different.
Roguelike is a worse term. I imagine most people these days don't even realize Rogue is a name of a specific game.
Metroidvania is a fun word.
I like that Symphony of the Night is immortalized in the term. That's part of it.
Also, to me at least, the Vania part signifies that another franchise took the Metroid formula and broke it open. Applied the fundamentals to other genres, and began mutating them.
I like that Symphony of the Night is immortalized in the term. That's part of it.
Also, to me at least, the Vania part signifies that another franchise took the Metroid formula and broke it open. Applied the fundamentals to other genres, and began mutating them.
yeah...mostly it could also be called "metroidlike". SOTN was the first Castlevania in the Metroid style..and that earned it the "vania" ending.
Castlevania II was actually the first Castlevania game that played in that style.
Yeah, I didn't mind the term as a nickname for Castlevanias influenced by Super Metroid.
I'm not a fan of applying it to an entire genre, especially since the genre predates Metroid, and video game history is already often viewed in Nintendo-centric ways. The term is probably too established to get rid of now, though.
