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Reviewers should beat games before reviewing them.

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.

ParsnipForest

Member
Oct 27, 2017
571
Australia
I dont mean to avatar quote but lol, the irony.
Liking Shenmue somehow negates my opinion that endings aren't as important as the journey? Wouldn't it support my opinion, given that I like the series despite it not receiving an ending? You so clever, caught me out good :-/

Anyone can play something for 20 mins and determine that they don't like it, a reviewers JOB is to explore a creation and determine what is good and what is bad within its own constructs. That's the "journey" of a reviewer, and it's why we pay attention to their work.
Providing an opinion under the guise of objectivity serves no one. I certainly don't want to read what someone thinks I will think (or more accurately, the "average gamer" will think) of a particular game.

There's a reason why more and more sites are moving away from traditional review formats and arbitrary numbered scoring: because everyone's different, and there's no such thing as a consensus of opinion when it comes to video games, or any sort of art.

The only thing dumber than "objective" numbered video game reviews is aggregated "objective" numbered video game reviews, and having a meltdown because a game ended up in the mid-80s instead of the 90s.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,315
No, someone who likes sports and sports games will understand what's necessary in order for a sports game to be good.

You're assuming that people who are passionate about something can't detach their emotions from it in order to properly critique it.

I envy your zealotry, but it's the reason for your inability to comprehend critical objectivity.



Which is why I said you're mixing up objectivity with expertise or knowledge.
Btw everyone's biased.
 
Aug 10, 2019
2,053
I didn't know anything about F1 Racing or sports simulators, and somehow I still ended up reviewing Motorsports Manager.

Thankfully, the game was really good, so the review turned out okay.
It happens.
The game was good, but that doesn't mean your review was.

Can you link the review, so we can review your work? I'm curious to see the review of someone who knows nothing about sports racing but liked a game based on the subject.
 

Deleted member 51789

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 9, 2019
3,705
No, someone who likes sports and sports games will understand what's necessary in order for a sports game to be good.

You're assuming that people who are passionate about something can't detach their emotions from it in order to properly critique it.

I envy your zealotry, but it's the reason for your inability to comprehend critical objectivity.
I think I get what you're saying in that you don't expect objective reviews but do expect people to go in without preconceived notions, but a review from someone who doesn't like sports games that much can be just as valuable to some people (maybe more so) than one from someone who loves the genre.

Ideally, a whole range of people should be reviewing all sorts of games and people can find a voice that chimes with them
 

GreatFenris

Banned
Apr 6, 2019
404
In this specific case: If someone tried to make me play through another of Kojima's slogs before reviewing it, there would be violence and harsh language.
Okay, maybe only harsh language.

But no, as long as they state how far into a game they got and the reasons they didn't finish it I'm fien with them not finishing a game. The delusion "They have to finish the game!" comes from fan trying to ignore whenever their favorite little game got a bad review and having the gall to claim a game gets better in like the last thirty minutes or so.
Take FF 13 as a fine example, 20-30 hours of grinding slog then it becomes a bit more fun. That's bad game design and I absolutely would not hold it against a reviewer if they didn't finish it.
Someone else put it best (Paraphrasing) : "The defense that 'It gets better after the first season!' worked for TV because you can have it be on in the background and do something else. You can't really do that with a video ngame so it's not a valid line of reasoning about games."
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,315
Liking Shenmue somehow negates my opinion that endings aren't as important as the journey? Wouldn't it support my opinion, given that I like the series despite it not receiving an ending? You so clever, caught me out good :-/


No, that's not what I meant. It's just that we both know Shenmue I is a slow game, with a slow pace, meant to build somethin bigger in the end. It's not that the ending is more important than the journey, quite the opposite. But it's more like that the journey needs to always pay off. Shenmue I is a game which's pay off happens at the end you might say... Heck even with Shenmue II. It's all about building a bigger thing.
 
Aug 10, 2019
2,053
I think I get what you're saying in that you don't expect objective reviews but do expect people to go in without preconceived notions, but a review from someone who doesn't like sports games that much can be just as valuable to some people (maybe more so) than one from someone who loves the genre.

Ideally, a whole range of people should be reviewing all sorts of games and people can find a voice that chimes with them
Yes I can agree with that.
 

Bob Beat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,916
I'm going thru the Witcher 3 and there is so much content. I even consider 'completing' a game to be 100%-ing it and that's too much. Sure, seeing the end it's fine but that doesn't mean you have done much. If you do 20% of this game and complete it, will you have a decent understanding of it? Probably. Will that translate to all other games when you first play them? How will you know what's the right percentage?

I think the better thing is to be honest of how much you have done. But I assume reviewers don't want to be caught with their pants down.
 

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,136
The game was good, but that doesn't mean your review was.

Can you link the review, so we can review your work? I'm curious to see the review of someone who knows nothing about sports racing but liked a game based on the subject.


I think the better thing is to be honest of how much you have done. But I assume reviewers don't want to be caught with their pants down.
I could always lie, but let's be real here: Finding someone's achievements/trophies is easy.
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,906
I recall some people testing Spec Ops: The Line and going with "yeah... just another Call of Duty but with bad mechanics".
Don't call something a review if its only a quick view or your impression on whatever low percentage you've seen of the game.
 

2b_miner

Member
Mar 7, 2019
252
I was just watching Jim's impressions on Remnant from the ashes and his quasi-review or opinion was based off the first half of the game, now whilst I understand that may be his personal point of view but without getting into the heart of the game, his impressions seemed quite narrow...it's like reviewing Destiny without playing any of the raids, it doesn't really give a very clear idea of what the game could be like, some games take time and patience to build up for example Sekiro only starts to shine when you hit midgame because one has learnt the tropes of combat by then, so it starts to click.
 

ParsnipForest

Member
Oct 27, 2017
571
Australia
No, that's not what I meant. It's just that we both know Shenmue I is a slow game, with a slow pace, meant to build somethin bigger in the end. It's not that the ending is more important than the journey, quite the opposite. But it's more like that the journey needs to always pay off. Shenmue I is a game which's pay off happens at the end you might say... Heck even with Shenmue II. It's all about building a bigger thing.
Well, I prefer Shenmue to Shenmue II and it's got very little to do with the ending. Shenmue barely feels like it's building to anything. I mean, the game picks up pace towards the end...by making you drive a forklift for a week. I think it's well-executed in a lot of ways, but it's the exploration and atmosphere that matter most, to me anyway.
 

mute

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,095
I don't have a huge issue with it so long as you are upfront about it and don't include any scores based off an incomplete playthrough in aggregate sites. But I don't put a lot of stock in reviews in general.
 

Suicide King

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
That's just semantics, I think. Reviewing, previewing or just stating your opinion are effectively the same thing. We just put review in a higher ground because we like to believe that it inherently means a "more complete opinion". In fact, for some people a joke about a game is more useful than a written review by someone who proved to have beat the game.

Not to mention that beating a game is a very opaque concept. Do you need to beat a 100-hours JRPG to know what you garnered from it? What is beating a sports game? Just finishing the story mode? Same with fighting games. Finishing the story is not equal to comprehending the experience and being able to talk about it.
 

Deleted member 7883

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,387
Yes, but to expect reviewers to beat all these 100+ hour games in only a week (depending on how long the publisher allows you to play before the review embargo drops) is INSANE.

My ideal would be that reviewers beat games in order to review them, but reviews are delayed. Instead we'd just get a lot more "impressions" or essentially reviews without the number, and save the number until you're done, when you finish.

But that won't happen, because gamers would get pissy over there no longer being review numbers to circlejerk each other on day zero of the games launch. We love to dissect these review scores, but only a fraction of us go any further than skimming the review thread/metacritic/open score, see the number, skim the synopsis of all the different review blurbs, and that's it.

Either gamers need to be more okay with impressions first, reviews later, or publishers need to allot much more time for the reviews of 100 hour games. I don't expect either to happen anytime soon, and these reviewers will continue to crunch.

I love Dragon Quest XI S. I've been playing around 20–30 minutes a night before bed and having a blast. From my understanding, this is a somewhat common way to approach this game—playing only a little bit at a time. I guarantee you I would not be nearly as infatuated with this game if I had to beat it in two weeks. I would have dreaded playing that towards the end. Of course a proper reviewer remains unbiased in their reviews, but I refuse to believe that sinking so much time in a game in so small a period of time wouldn't dour your opinion of the game just a bit.

imagine reviewers beating these games in order to review the, but taking as much time as they need to send out the review. That would be ideal. Shame it'll never happen.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,315
Well, I prefer Shenmue to Shenmue II and it's got very little to do with the ending. Shenmue barely feels like it's building to anything. I mean, the game picks up pace towards the end...by making you drive a forklift for a week. I think it's well-executed in a lot of ways, but it's the exploration and atmosphere that matter most, to me anyway.


Eh I felt like it picked up pace when
you rescue Nozomi and then do the 70 man battle
 

Kyo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
180
Generally yes, I'd say they should. Not that they 'must', but most times I am just going to think less of a review that doesn't cover all of the subject it's supposed to be telling me about.

I guess quick filter takes where the game isn't for you or throws up so many red flags the reviewer feels continuing to consume the game is meaningless can be a thing, but in the end my expectation is that a review at least gets to the game's finish line.
 

Romez

Member
Nov 11, 2017
348
The entitlement in some of the people saying yes is hilarious.

Then you have people trying to compare video games to books and movies, which is stupid.

When it comes to books and movies what you see/read is what you get. You've seen everything it has to offer. You can only compare linear story based games like Uncharted to movies and books. It's fine to expect a reviewer to complete games like these before reviewing them.

But there are so many different types of games. Online focused games, what constitutes Fortnite as being complete? What constitutes Breath of the Wild as being complete? You can technically go straight to Ganon. What constitutes Mario Kart being complete? What constitutes FIFA or 2K as being complete?

Then you have huge open world RPG's like Witcher 3 that take 50/60/70+ hours to complete. I think it's perfectly fine if a reviewer hasn't completed the story but has done about 70% and engaged in most of the side content to give an informed opinion on the game.

I haven't even mentioned difficulty. Sometimes games are unbalanced as fuck on certain difficulties. Are you expecting reviewers to play the game multiple times on each difficulty?

In short my opinion is in general no but it mostly depends on the game.
 

Doctor Avatar

Member
Jan 10, 2019
2,598
Yes people should do their job.

Stop being so entitled.

I mean, are you some kind of monster? Making someone PLAY A GAME and PAYING THEM for it, when it is their job to do so?

We better get to the commission on human rights here guys and report this.

I mean, if you don't want to play games for a living why are you a game journalist? If the job is so bad and so onerous that you can't even do your job, and it's as abusive as the excuses on here suggest then don't do it and find other work.
 

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
18,926
United States
I cannot believe there are 40% of people who think reviewers shouldn't beat the games they review on this site. I was so far in the opposite direction on this that I assumed this was a joke thread until I saw the poll results.

What in hell.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
I ask that everyone in here saying yes to go and get a copy of Dragon Quest 7, Danganronpa, and the latest Trails game, and play them to completion and formulate a review and see how long it takes to complete those in an 8 hour day for a month's time. I will give you no pay (welcome to the world of freelancing where you are giving little to no pay).

Dragon Quest 7 is roughly an 80 hour main story (unless you want to do the PS1 version, then you're looking at around 100+ hour main story), Danganronpa is around 20 hours main story, and Trails of Cold Steel is around 50 hours main story.
 
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Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,182
UK
I cannot believe there are 40% of people who think reviewers shouldn't beat the games they review on this site. I was so far in the opposite direction on this that I assumed this was a joke thread until I saw the poll results.

What in hell.
I think it's worth empathizing with critics who have review deadlines of 2 weeks or less to complete long or possibly very difficult games, and can share their experience of the game and relay their frustrations which didn't allow them to finish the game. This is in cases where developers won't be able to give them later saves or endgame content to alleviate the situation in order to complete the game. Maybe it might not have a review score.

Their situation is different than us who have plenty of time to finish a game and can drop a game if it's too much but we can still give our opinions on the game. At the end of the day, critics have a right too to present their opinion on a game. It's then up to people to get offended or not if those incomplete impressions end up as a review, or even has a review score.
 

Nugnip

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,744
Those in favor of having to beat the game, why stop there? They should platinum it. 100%. Every side quest. How else could they judge everything the game has to offer?
 

IamFlying

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 6, 2019
765
If a game is bad the first few hours than a reviewer can stop, than the game is just not worth playing, even when it gets better later (its unlikely anyway that a game that gets much better if developer ruin the beginning).

The other way round its more difficult, if a reviewer plays a few hours and think a game is great and writes a positive review, but its get worse afterwards, than its a very bad accomplishment of the reviewer.

Most reviewer did not play DS to the end, the third part of the game is more of a chore and more like watching a bad B-Movie.
 

Sotha_Sil

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,067
Those in favor of having to beat the game, why stop there? They should platinum it. 100%. Every side quest. How else could they judge everything the game has to offer?

There's a difference between hunting down every useless trinket in Uncharted for zero reward and talking about a game's level design while not completing all the levels.
 

bastardly

Member
Nov 8, 2017
10,582
This is such a stupid comparison for many reasons. Like first of all, since you're talking about it as work, how about actually listening to the people who do that as work? Maybe you don't know anything about it.

Second, in work life there do come projects that you don't need to take to the their very end because you see it's a slog and it's going nowhere. In that situation it can be wiser to stop it than to continue on and on until some point in which you can't continue.
uh, how many professional game reviewers finish the game i'm guessing it's 99% of the time, so it's the norm not the outlier. now if they dont want to finish it, thats fine, like others have said, just call it a 50hr impression and that's fair, but it's not a review.

and if i or my bosses fail to deliver on a project, then that's exactly that, a failure on our part, yeh we can cut bait, but it'll look bad on us and we'll be seen as quitters. same if some "reviewer" said "i'm done". in cases like someone mentioned above and a game is broken, that's completely out of their control and that's fine, but if a game is being completed by 99% of other reviewers, do the same or don't call it a review, simple.
 

Dunban_Fyuria

Member
Oct 27, 2017
478
I don't get the nier comments from earlier (at least the automata ones) but I guess it's just more strawman arguments.

I can count like 4 or so RPGs that came out last month or so, with two of them coming out in the same week. People want reviewers to experience most of the content in a game but so many are coming out that it's practically unreasonable. You want to wait a week or two but for major releases a website will get flak for not having one up, especially if it's missing a score. Thankfully more review sites are getting used to the method of having a review in progress or just no score.

A lot of people here really lacking empathy and just trying to go for some "gotcha" moments, trying to determine how everyone should judge a game and how to "do their job" when you're not even paying the reviewer lol.
Yes, because the ending is important
I think it's very rare when an ending completely changes how you feel about a game, which most of the examples being short games. Something like RDR2 isn't going to change someone's mind if they still find the core gameplay to be a slog. It's pretty eyerolling if you just dismiss someone's opinion because they couldn't get to the ending after spending 50 hours on rdr2 lol.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,380
It bears repeating: informing your readers that despite being paid to review the game and despite making a living being passionate about games and despite playing games during your 9-to-5 that the game that you reviewed is so terrible that you can't even bring yourself to finish it. As somebody reading a review like that, I'll highly reconsider how I will spend my very minimal free time on that particular game. Saying that this assessment doesn't fall under the category of a "review" and that it should be instead classified as an "impression" is a poor attempt by people trying to shield their favorite games from lower scores.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,380
No ending is going to make up for a boring game.
This is how I feel about endings and twists in general. There's not a single twist or ending that changes a bad narrative to a good narrative. Even great twists or great endings in great narratives are overrated. Frodo and Gollum fighting at the edge of Mount Doom is an incredible scene and a perfect crescendo for the entire trilogy, but it would be completely worthless if the story leading up to that moment was terrible. It's the story that drives the twists & endings, not the other way around.
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,364
For both base D2 and Shadowkeep, I held my review back a week just so I could play those raids.

Because of that, we weren't included in any review roundups or marketing at launch.

That sucks. For all this thread is obsessed with people experiencing the whole story or campaign or whatever, I've spent about 20 times more time with Destiny raids than the so-so campaigns. How good the raids and other post-story content is is wildly more relevant to me when I look for opinions re a game like Destiny. I'm completely 'whatever' in terms of the story.
 

Firima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,474
It bears repeating: informing your readers that despite being paid to review the game and despite making a living being passionate about games and despite playing games during your 9-to-5 that the game that you reviewed is so terrible that you can't even bring yourself to finish it. As somebody reading a review like that, I'll highly reconsider how I will spend my very minimal free time on that particular game. Saying that this assessment doesn't fall under the category of a "review" and that it should be instead classified as an "impression" is a poor attempt by people trying to shield their favorite games from lower scores.

I voted "yes," but there are exceptions, the EDGE reviewer quote being one of them. An explained "lolnope" is as good as a review in most cases.
 

Eppcetera

Member
Mar 3, 2018
1,911
I don't think that reviewers need to finish most games to know if they're good. That doesn't take too long to figure out, and I grew up playing many NES and SNES games that I could never finish due to how challenging they were for me. I don't mind saying that games like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Zelda 2 (both from the NES) are terrible, even though I got far less than halfway through either of them.

That said, I voted yes, because I believe that reviewers should finish games, whenever possible, and that sites should delay reviews, if necessary, so that their writers can complete the game and develop their thoughts and think about it some more. I think most day-one reviews are worthless, since the reviewer usually rushed through the game to get the review up in time if it's a long game, or, if the game is shorter, the reviewer is in a honeymoon phase and over-praises a game. My favourite reviews are done by people who've finished a game that came out years ago multiple times, and they've put a lot of thought and time into the game. What I like about such reviews is that the writer may have a deeper understanding of the game than I do, so I actually consider reading this type of review as worth my time.

Of course, I don't view my ideal form of review as necessary for big-name gaming sites, and I don't expect them to meet that standard. However, that's what I expect from reviews that I want to take my time to read That doesn't mean that I think reviews are invalid if the game hasn't been finished yet; it's definitely a problem if I hear that many people can't finish a game because it's so bad (that's what I heard about Sonic 06, and I've avoided it like the plague, as a result). At the same time, I've played games like Ni no Kuni (which I really liked for about 15 hours and enjoyed less and less the more I played it) and Mass Effect 3 (which had an ending so bad that it tarnished my overall opinion of the game), so I'm going to be skeptical of overwhelming praise for a story-heavy game from someone who hasn't beat the game.

I ask that everyone in here saying yes to go and get a copy of Dragon Quest 7, Danganronpa, and the latest Trails game, and play them to completion and formulate a review and see how long it takes to complete those in an 8 hour day for a month's time. I will give you no pay (welcome to the world of freelancing where you are giving little to no pay).

I have played Dragon Quest VII, have beaten most of the Trails games and am currently playing the newest Trails game. I understand that finishing these games takes a long time, but I wouldn't want to read a review of these games unless they're written by someone who completed them. If it takes a long time to beat the games, so be it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,143
Only came in to say your poll sucks. No one thinks reviewers should not finish games, only that they shouldn't necessarily finish them.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,701
Brazil
If you not finish some games you won't get the full experience, like in Nier Automata, if I recall some reviewers stopped playing at ending A and it was obvious in their analysis.

Getting the first ending fits the "beat the game" in the OP
unless you want people to do 130% on every game ... which becomes ridiculous for some games with a bazilion of sidequests and collectables

Like I said before, how the hell do you review World of Warcraft
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
If you not finish some games you won't get the full experience, like in Nier Automata, if I recall some reviewers stopped playing at ending A and it was obvious in their analysis.
I finished Hollow Knight just now, 52 hours, 72% completion, and the final thought was that the ending was weird so I googled it. Turns out there are 6 very different endings depending on what you've done. Fortunately for me there is youtube. But for a critic who is reviewing it before the release when no youtube videos exist, do they have to finish it and search for all the endings to "get the full experience"? How do they even know that there are several endings before the release?
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
Yes, it's their job.
What if it's not their job? Who determines that?

That is, what if their editor is fine with them giving it their best shot, and if they can't bring themselves to finish, as long as they gave it their best shot and they disclose that in their review, are totally cool with it, and let it go ahead?

Is it still their "job" anyway despite it clearly not being a term of employment, their boss being cool with it, and being paid for the work they did do and everything being allowed to go ahead? Who's to determine thst in that case when both employee and employer say otherwise?

Like, the point being that reviewers are s very diverse group. Some are freelance and write for multiple sites. Some are lucky enough to primarily write for just one. Some are paid a salary. Others are paid per word of their review or a fraction of ad proceeds and thsts it. And everything in between.

Tyst such a diverse group of people can be grouped together so easily, that it could definitely be said that this or that I'd part of the "job" for reviewers I'm general when how they're paid or what they are or are not paid for is completely all over the map and varies rapidly depending on the site or even individual were talking about, tyst people still feel they can definitively say this or that is in fact part of the job of all reviewers, to not only speak for such a large group but tell all of them what their job is or isn't is just crazy to me.

Because yeah, that might be absolutely required at one place, and that's cool if so. But it could just as easily be fine somewhere else, and that's also cool if that's their decision as long as they're open about that, and it doesn't just magically become part of their job anyway as it's not my place to say that and it clearly isn't at that point.

And that's why I hate that argument so much: I get why people might instinctively say that, but in reality, it depends. And taking something that depends, and generalizing it to the whole group and insisting it applies to them all regardless is silly to me. It's just neither here nor there, 'cause at some places, it clearly isn't a hard-and-fast rule of their employment, that their editors can be cool with it, which is part of the reason we're talking about this in the first place.

So it's clearly not that simple as it's "just part of their job" as if it were everyone who ever did that or considered doing so would be fired, so it's clearly not that simple, and so I really wish people would stop treading out the "it's their job" one-liner as if it were because however one feels about it, whether one personally likes it or not, it's clearly not so simple and that's neither here nor there because of that.