• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Reviewers should beat games before reviewing them.

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.

chrisPjelly

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
10,491
Depends on the game. For games where the story negligible and gameplay loop is maximized at a certain point, then you don't need to beat those games. Games with a heavy focus on narrative absolutely need to be beaten as writing is an integral part of that particular type of game.
 

morrigan8bit

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jul 1, 2019
249
Isn't it easy to judge others based on something you are not qualified to speak on? "It isn't difficult." So you're saying they're just lazy?

I never used the word lazy. I have, in another life time, reviewed games. Not professionally, but as an amateur. There was a process I followed including finishing the game.

While I'm not poo pooing the work involved in reviewing a game anyone can do it, to different levels of success.
 

morrigan8bit

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jul 1, 2019
249
Or imagine reviewing and rating a book that they stopped reading half way.

Exactly. Or an album - the musical direction of Morrigan's new album is poor. BTW I only listened to 5 tracks out of 12. I rate it 4/10 based upon the assumption that the remaining tracks are identical. I was bored with a deadline.
 

StraySheep

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,276
Waypoint had a pretty good discussion on the economics of this on their recent podcast on October 18. It got into how reviewing a game isn't like reviewing a movie, which might be two hours, when a game can be forty hours or more. This is particularly punishing for freelancers. I'll transcribe the relevant material, which starts around 1:20:45 in the podcast.



If people reviewing Death Stranding are being paid $6/hr (below minimum wage) for their time on a 40 hour game, what should we expect?

I am very sympathetic towards game critics who work under those conditions, but I would rather call for change in their company than start with "yeah fine they don't have to reach the end of the work." In an ideal situation they would have all the time they need and enough people on the team to cover other games.
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
Tough question really. A little hard to compare to books or movies too. And where do we draw the line when the game is complete? I found it weird how all of Gears 5 review scores were already posted without MP involved. Like how broken is that? So wouldn't the reviews automatically go higher with MP added in whether it was complete trash or amazing? It can't get worse that's for sure. Then you'll have ppl complain the MCC got high scores with a broken MP. That doesn't make sense if other games don't take MPinto consideration
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,310
I think it really depends. There are cases where it might be OK to not finish the game and review it, but the reviewer should disclose that and explain why they didn't finish it clearly.

For single-player, story-driven games, yes, they probably should, though, unless there are really good reasons for why not.

If the game has a traditional campaign then I will make every effort to beat it and spend some time in each mode for the review. If for some reason I cannot do this then I explain why.

But it is problematic for some games. If I were reviewing a hypothetical Street Fighter VI would beating the arcade mode with just one character suffice or do I need to beat it with every character? I would of course try out every multiplayer mode but is there a minimum amount of time I need to spend in each mode?

If I review Forza Horizon 5 will I need to try every car, take on every challenge and find every hidden sign?
Really good point. An important part of competitive/fighting games are roster variety and balance. A reviewer should try to at least get a good feel of how solid this aspect of the game is, but also, requiring them to intricately master every single character/moveset before reviewing is too much.
 

sonicmj1

Member
Oct 25, 2017
680
Exactly. Or an album - the musical direction of Morrigan's new album is poor. BTW I only listened to 5 tracks out of 12. I rate it 4/10 based upon the assumption that the remaining tracks are identical. I was bored with a deadline.
This review of Undone Season 1 from rogerebert.com is based on the first 5 episodes of an 8-episode season. It's a Top Critic review marked as "Fresh" on RottenTomatoes. How would you describe the practices of this reviewer and the site she works for? Or Indiewire, or New York magazine?

As far as I can tell this sort of thing is standard practice for television.
 

Gabe

Verified
Oct 25, 2017
200
Italy
Great post, thank you for taking the time.
It comes down to exactly what you say. And I think that's what sometimes makes discussing professions related to gaming so hard in forums like Era, people can't separate the gaming hobby from gaming as a profession (being reviewing or making them)

This is pretty much how I feel as well.


Thank you. I often have to do some boring things in my field of work, but heeh, it's my job, so I do them to the full.

Well, thank YOU all for actually reading the post...unfortunately, based on many of the subsequent posts i've read, it's pretty clear you are the only four that did XD

Peace.
 
Nov 23, 2018
878
Reviews are subjective and informed opinions require fully experiencing the form of media how the media is meant to be experienced.

Anything less is half-assed and irrelevant, in my opinion.
 

Tranqueris

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,734
I wouldn't say that people have to finish a game, if the game is so tedious or bad that you don't wanna complete it, then just say you didn't finish the review and explain what was so bad about it that made you not want to finish it.
 

Liquor

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,715
"Reviewing" a game without beating it is just an impression, no matter how long your experience with it was. Every other medium out there, no finishing the product you chose to review is silly.

"I was reading this book and got bored! 2/10!". Movies, music, etc.
 

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,122
Waypoint had a pretty good discussion on the economics of this on their recent podcast on October 18. It got into how reviewing a game isn't like reviewing a movie, which might be two hours, when a game can be forty hours or more. This is particularly punishing for freelancers. I'll transcribe the relevant material, which starts around 1:20:45 in the podcast.

If people reviewing Death Stranding are being paid $6/hr (below minimum wage) for their time on a 40 hour game, what should we expect?
Shiiiit. That's way more money than I'll ever see.

FML this thread has been depressing as hell.
 

sonicmj1

Member
Oct 25, 2017
680
I am very sympathetic towards game critics who work under those conditions, but I would rather call for change in their company than start with "yeah fine they don't have to reach the end of the work." In an ideal situation they would have all the time they need and enough people on the team to cover other games.
I don't disagree in that respect. I understand why publications like Edge or Gamespot have policies that expect reviewers to complete games for a review, and I expect game completion to be the norm. In an absolutely ideal world, reviews could be even more in-depth than just reaching the end credits, going deep into post-game content, getting an understanding of the impact of different player choices, or developing deeper knowledge of the mechanics than one would get from a normal playthrough.

But given what reviewers are being paid (the bare minimum) and what readers are paying (nothing at all), I'm not surprised we're receiving fast food. Given that context, I can forgive a review that doesn't complete the game, provided that the reviewer's choice is disclosed and fully explained. Alternative viewpoints are a click away if I want another perspective.
 

Cranster

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,788
"Reviewing" a game without beating it is just an impression, no matter how long your experience with it was. Every other medium out there, no finishing the product you chose to review is silly.

"I was reading this book and got bored! 2/10!". Movies, music, etc.

Books, movies, music ect. Don't take 40 plus hours to complete and don't include other factors that video games do that can hamper progress.

Quit making these garbage comparisons
 

Tarot Deck

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,232
You have to finish a book to have an opinion on it.

So yes, I believe the same applies to games IF they have a linear structure towards an end ( history driven single player).

Fighting games, mmo, strategy games are different by nature, you can't beat them, per se.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
A review is essentially just an individual's impressions with a game, their opinion. If a game is so awful they can't finish it, well, that's as informative in of itself that they had that experience as anything else IMO.

As for the "okay, but what if there were two reviews, one of them from someone who finished the game, the other didn't, who would you listen to" hypothetical that keeps popping up in this thread and other variants of it, that one is pretty easy really.

In that situation, since one of them finished it, the other didn't, it's highly likely they have very different tastes in games/different tolerances for different things. Thus, who I would be more likely to listen to in that situation would be the one of them who's tastes are most similar to my own, based on their respective previous reviews. Like reviews in general are supposed to work. Pretty straightforward.

Though I have to say the thing that annoys me the most in this thread is seeing variants of "it's their job" over and over again. Because it's just rude and unnecessary in multiple ways.

Because like... It's their job, not mine. Who am I to say what their job is or isn't? I think they would know better than me. And indeed if their boss says to have to finish it, fine. But if their boss is cool with them not finishing it, and is just fine with them not finishing a game after giving it their best shot because that's how bad the game is and they have to move on to playing something else and so writing a review based on the experience they did have, if their boss is cool with that... Well, clearly finishing the game is NOT necessarily part of their job after all in that situation. And they would know much better than me.

And that's what I'm getting at there: that yknow, just in general, like with any job in a given industry, rules can be completely 100% at different businesses within the same industry, that different bosses and companies can be completely different even if the basic job itself is the same, and that's something we be probably all experienced to different degrees. And the point being that if their boss is cool with it, who am I to say any different?

That's between them and their boss, their place of employment. If their boss is indeed cool with it, who am I, a complete nobody, to say any different? They clearly know better and in that situation it clearly isn't part of their job. That's just not something you can throw such blanket statements onto, and it's so condescending to tell someone else what the requirements for their job ate or aren't when you aren't the one who makes those decisions or knows anything about that, at all, so the "it's their job" argument just really, really gets on my nerves for all of those kind of reasons and more.

But I digress. Something else to consider is just how arbitrary the goal of getting to the end of a game really is. Like, it doesn't seem that way at first obviously. It seems to make sense. It's about "experiencing everything a game can offer" and how experiences can sometimes change right at the end. But everything has to offer... Usually, especially these days, the ending itself isn't all a game has to offer. And indeed if an opinion can change getting to the end, it can certainly change from getting 100% completion as well. But that's not a very reasonable expectation, obviously, for reviewers to not only beat s game, but also 100% it.

Now obviously a follow-up to that is 'can they just play 5-minutes then" but obviously to begin with that's just a reductive slippery slope and not something I want to entertain that much, and that aside, just like with finishing a game, that would be between them and their employer and if said employer is fine with it, it's not really for me to question that.

The point being though, the ending is just as arbitrary as anything else and experiences and opinions could potentially change at any point, at any time playing a game and there's nothing special about the ending itself. This, if a game is so terrible that a reviewer can't compell themselves to finish, not only is that informative in of itself of their experience of the game, I can't personally nake a good argument based around compelling them to continue base around the ending being able to change their mind or whatever because yeah, it could.... But it just as easily couldn't. And the same is true of each point on the game, not just the ending. And none of that changes that if the game was indeed frustrating or otherwise terrible enough to even make them consider such a thing, that's still nonetheless informative in of itself.

Plus, there are very interesting cases in points of what even constitutes an ending of a game anyway. Like, the easy example here is say stuff like many MMOs which often by their very nature don't really end per se. And then even better, games that don't have any real story or anything of the sort, like multiplayer-only/PVP-only based games, y'know, stuff like your Overwatches and CS:GO and all that. An ending isn't always available anyway. What do you do with games like that? How many hours are you "required" to play?

It's all arbitrary. As long as the reviewer has given it a solid try, as long as they've given it their best effort and they indeed believe they've experienced enough to have solidified their thoughts on the game and put them into the form of a review, that's what counts, and generally speaking, key word being generally speaking here before someone tries to "what about..." this, generally speaking the reviewer is more likely than me to know what "enough" is to form their own personal opinion on a game.

Then, there are even more fun examples of how arbitrary it all is. Like, imagine if Castlevania: Symphony of the Night was being released for the first time. Imagine if a reviewer got to the "bad" ending of the game and indeed thought they were finished. Should they be able to finish?

Because indeed, just by the point that you're able to fight Belmont you'll have the majority of the map filled in. You would have gotten like your items and transformations and stuff that Death took from you at the beginning of the game back.

And yeah, it's strange that Belmont is suddenly evil. But the game goes out of it's way to give him a motive and explanation for that. That being a vampire Hunter only brings temporary fame but eventually doomed them to irrelevance, but by becoming a Lord of darkness himself, he can become immortal, and just having become that obsessed with his legacy. And obviously heroes going bad as a huge plot twist is hardly unheard of to put it mildly and it's not like Alucard himself even dwells on it that much in the bad ending and is basically all "well, I guess my work is done," so, yeah.

Now obviously is ones a larger Castlevania fan one can tell that certain things are still off, like say how you don't actually fight Death at all if you get that ending and that's kinda weird, but nonetheless, especially if it's one's first Castlevania game, the point being I'd that one could easily be forgiven if they thought that wasn't just an ending but THE ending of the game

So what to do in situations like that? Where they genuinely get an ending, believe it's the ending, and have no particular reason to think there's more? Personally, can't think of any reason, in that situation that they shouldn't be able to write a review at that point, just because they don't have the knowledge that theres a different way of playing the game that would lead to different results.

And if one feels otherwise with SOTN in particular this becomes more clear with other games with multiple endings like say Undertale. What's required to review Undertale? Is just a few neutral ending variations enough? Do they have to get True Pacifist? What about Genocide? Personally speaking, especially for a game like Undertale where it's all about the player playing their own way, anything is fine with me and it doesn't really make that much sense to put those kind of restrictions on reviews for it, but that's me.

The point being to show that even in critically acclaimed and well-known games how even something straight forward like "beat the game" isn't necessarily as simple as it appears.

So yeah, the long and short of it is for me, there are no universal answers to a question like that, at least that's how I feel.
 

sca

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,470
i think it's fine both ways, but maybe they should put a disclaimer whether they did or didn't beat the game
 

Wagram

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
2,443
Difficult to say, but I'd at least hope they are transparent about it. There are games where getting to a certain point makes everything click into place. I don't want to say their opinions are invalid for not beating it, but at the same time, I don't think they should be taken super serious if they haven't fully completed either.
 

DontHateTheBacon

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,320
Ideally, but that's not reality, so I'd just say: be as honest and upfront about how much you beat at the top of the review.
 

rashbeep

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,458
its kinda their job

they don't have to 100% them, but at least play through the main sections
 

Bosch

Banned
May 15, 2019
3,680
Well imagine someone watching half a movie and reviewing ... It doesn't make sense...
 

tatotiburon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
378
Killa
if the reviewer is too bored to finish the game then i don't need to know more about it, i think is good for them to come out honestly and said "sorry i didn't finish it on time, i hated it"
 

Liquor

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,715
Books, movies, music ect. Don't take 40 plus hours to complete and don't include other factors that video games do that can hamper progress.

Quit making these garbage comparisons
You don't just get the right to make that call and call that comparison garbage.

A reviews job is the same no matter what they choose to review. It's their job to provide interested parties with a complete understanding of the specific products and art they choose to partake in. If their job does not allow them to actually partake in the entirely of said product, then there is a problem. You cant give a review on something you yourself have not actually experienced in its entirety. Period.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
You don't just get the right to make that call and call that comparison garbage.

A reviews job is the same no matter what they choose to review. It's their job to provide interested parties with a complete understanding of the specific products and art they choose to partake in. If their job does not allow them to actually partake in the entirely of said product, then there is a problem. You cant give a review on something you yourself have not actually experienced in its entirety. Period.
Says who? Where this "it's their job" stuff come from?

Because that would seem to be up to their boss, not randoms on the Internet. And indeed of their boss says they have to finish it, then fine, because at that point, it's indeed their boss saying so so indeed it is their job at that point.

But by that logic, of course, their bosses also have the right to not care themselves and be perfectly fine with the decision if it's justified well enough send if they themselves are fine with it, considering they're the employers in the yst situation, who am I to insist it's part of their "job," a call ndition for their continued employment, when it clearly isn't in that situation?

The point being that being seem to take this "it's their job" stuff for granted,bwjrn it's not necessarily that foear at all, that things can vary a lot more than that, and that's indeed between them and they're employer, certainly not random people on the Internet.

The point being that "it's their job" is really quite gibberish when in many cases that may not necessarily in fact be part of their job or a condition for being able to write a review or not to begin with, and what then? That people throw that around like it's a blanket statement guaranteed to apply everywhere when it really isn't, as evidenced by the fact were even talking about this to begin with.

So O really wish that's one thing people would stop throwing around at all ye very least, and, yknow, like the reviewers they're criticizing for not finishing the game in the first place, say, read this thread through and not just drop the same stuff a billion other people have already said and leave without reading anything/much at all and realize that is a silly argument at the very least, but alas....
 

Liquor

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,715
Says who? Where this "it's their job" stuff come from?

Because that would seem to be up to their boss, not randoms on the Internet. And indeed of their boss says they have to finish it, then fine, because at that point, it's indeed their boss saying so so indeed it is their job at that point.

But by that logic, of course, their bosses also have the right to not care themselves and be perfectly fine with the decision if it's justified well enough send if they themselves are fine with it, considering they're the employers in the yst situation, who am I to insist it's part of their "job," a call ndition for their continued employment, when it clearly isn't in that situation?

The point being that being seem to take this "it's their job" stuff for granted,bwjrn it's not necessarily that foear at all, that things can vary a lot more than that, and that's indeed between them and they're employer, certainly not random people on the Internet.

The point being that "it's their job" is really quite gibberish when in many cases that may not necessarily in fact be part of their job or a condition for being able to write a review or not to begin with, and what then? That people throw that around like it's a blanket statement guaranteed to apply everywhere when it really isn't, as evidenced by the fact were even talking about this to begin with.

So O really wish that's one thing people would stop throwing around at all ye very least, and, yknow, like the reviewers they're criticizing for not finishing the game in the first place, say, read this thread through and not just drop the same stuff a billion other people have already said and leave without reading anything/much at all and realize that is a silly argument at the very least, but alas....
My opinion is actually very important on the matter, because I'm the customer. And it's the "bosses" job to serve the customer, if they want to stay in business. Not sure why anyone feels the strong will to give game reviews such a light tap for not doing what most people with any sense expect others in the same job description to do with other mediums.
 

morrigan8bit

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jul 1, 2019
249
This review of Undone Season 1 from rogerebert.com is based on the first 5 episodes of an 8-episode season. It's a Top Critic review marked as "Fresh" on RottenTomatoes. How would you describe the practices of this reviewer and the site she works for? Or Indiewire, or New York magazine?

As far as I can tell this sort of thing is standard practice for television.

I would prefer the review was based upon the entire series. As we know how a series ties together can, in some case, make or break it.
 

tzare

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Catalunya
Of course. And it's their job, too.
Imagine reviews and critics for other media not listening or watching to full CDs, movies , or not reading a book to the end.
But since reviews are more of opinion articles these days... They may even do reviews by watching a few YouTube videos instead.

And even more, games should also be revisited if get patched in a reasonable period of time
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
Finishing a game makes sense if your review scales from 1 to 10. Recommended, not recommended are best in my opinion.
A great ending don't justify a terrible beginning. Having to endure a bad first half to experience the good part doesn't make sense, and still makes the game a bad game.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
Depends the content, a lot of games have end game content that can be critical to the rating of the game, whenever it is story, replayability or expanded gameplay time.

Of course. And it's their job, too.
Imagine reviews and critics for other media not listening or watching to full CDs, movies , or not reading a book to the end.
But since reviews are more of opinion articles these days... They may even do reviews by watching a few YouTube videos instead.

And even more, games should also be revisited if get patched in a reasonable period of time

The academy panel of judges seem to be doing okay without watching the things they are giving oscars to, lol.
 

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
11,406
Like most things there's not a good black or white answer. Depending on the length and type of game you shouldn't have to finish the game. Some games cannot really be finished or with some Gaas there is a short campaign that probably should be completed and at least a general feel of the gameplay loop before publishing a review.
 

Mr. Nice_Guy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,716
For a story heavy game like Death Stranding? I would say yes. But for something like Enter the Gungeon? I would say if you spent 10-20 hours with that game and couldn't beat it, you could still right a full review of it. Might not be as comprehensive as someone who saw everything there was to see, but you could still give enough information to help someone make an informed decision on whether or not to purchase it.
 

Windrunner

Sly
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,487
No, but if they don't then they need to be up front about that and explain why. If a reviewer can't bring themselves to finish a game then that in of itself says a lot about the game to me.
 

Xx 720

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,920
Yes they should finish the game if they are going to assign a score to it. Actually, there should be a way to check and verify if a reviewer actually finished a game or just skimmed it.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
It depends on the game, but generally you don't need to finish a game in order to see what it has to offer. If it's a great game, then it's going to be a great game period. If you need to play to the end to determine that, then it must not be that good.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
Of course. And it's their job, too.
Imagine reviews and critics for other media not listening or watching to full CDs, movies , or not reading a book to the end.
But since reviews are more of opinion articles these days... They may even do reviews by watching a few YouTube videos instead.

And even more, games should also be revisited if get patched in a reasonable period of time
Not necessarily, no. If their boss is cool with it, then it clearly is not necessarily part of their job after all. That's between then and their employer, not some universal thing. Which should also be obvious from the different payment models reviews use at different places, with some being pure hobbyist work where they're not being paid at all, at other places they're paid per word for their review or by impressions on ads their review gets and not compensated for the time they spent playing the game in any way at all, and then situations where even when reviewers are indeed paid a salary flat-out that because of how deadlines are a thing and how most people won't care at all about a review if it's "late" unfortunately regardless of the reason and will just go somewhere else instead that they have to have stuff finished by a certain point whether they want to or not weighing in their mind...

The point being, what is or is not their job clearly varries a ton from place to place, and it's fascinating to me that so many people either don't comprehend that at all or are alternatively just pretending not to and keep repeating the "it's their job" talking point like that actually means anything at all and is either her nor there since that could just as easily not be the case for a particular reviewer at all, but yet...

And the sane with the CDs and movies talking points which have been mentioned a billion times and are obviously much shorter than so many games are. Not to mention, in film in particular, it's actually not exactly uncommon for film critics/reviewers to indeed walk out on films and still review them anyway and it's not a terribly big deal at all, buecauae indeed like game reviews film reviews are also just opinions and if a films so bad it gets a reviewer to walk out than can be just as informative as anything else, but yet....

Just the irony though. A bunch of people whining about what someone else's hob is or isn't when they don't in fact know if that's even part of their job anyway and just insisting definitively they know what the rules are or aren't anyway, while don't ng the same thing that supposedly bothers themselves to begin with, forming an opinion based on incomplete information (in this case, not reading the whole thread). "But it's not my job." No, but a.) If that's a thing that bothers you it really shouldn't matter whether it is or isn't and b.) How do you know it's theirs either and what if it's not?
 

hank_tree

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,596
Nope. No need. Probably worth making clear in the review text, if relevant.
 

Fishook

Member
Dec 20, 2017
811
Just out of curiosity, how long to reviewers get the games in advance to review them ? I as presume most of the time playing a game is done in down/free time as they usually have other commitments such a press events.
 

ChrisJSY

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,053
Not all, I can't remember the last time a game midway through for me changed much.

I appreciate if someone can't finish a game or is pushing themselves to finish a game is honest about it, even if it's their job to review a game.
Games as a Service absolutely don't need to be, you can really pick up the gist of it early on and nothing changes, maybe you'll make it to end game and realise that nothing is there and report on it.

Also, reviewing games must be annoying sometimes with so many out there and how long some of them can be, especially if they are so close to release and they may feel rushed to do it.

Honestly, I don't care too much about reviews myself, though I wouldn't have known about Disco Elysium if not and how great it is, but even watching an unedited video about it tells me enough that I'd want it.
 

Deleted member 17403

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,664
I think they should see it all the way through. They don't have to necessarily get 100% completion, but how can you judge something that you haven't completed? If you are indecisive or believe that a game may not be for you, perhaps someone else should review it. If that's not an option and you're locked into it? Oh well, see it through and don't write some bullshit to give the impression that you did actually beat the game to fool your audience and lend more validity to your opinion.