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Should more western devs try the Yakuza dev method?
- Thread starter bakedpony
- Start date
I feel Yakuza burnout, and I don't even play them too frequently because of it. And I started back in PS2 days. I'm still on 0 and though it has tons of substories, the combat gets tedious (especially with Kiryu, whose styles are kinda dry).
Eventually I'll play 5 and 6.
Eventually I'll play 5 and 6.
To me Yakuza is in a special place with the way the games are done. I am currently playing through Yakuza 5 right after completing 4 and so far it feels fresh because it has new settings. I felt a lot more Yakuza fatigue after playing Zero -> Kiwami -> Kiwami 2 -> 3. I had a very long gap between Zero and Kiwami, then a very long one after Kiwami 2. Another one from 3 to 4. 3 was by far the biggest slog because its gameplay is clunkier than the rest of the series.
The games are so heavily story driven that you don't mind that you are running in the same settings so much. They change things a little for every game for better or worse to make it feel like the cities are changing. The level of storytelling is what puts Yakuza series above the rest. I love how they embrace the serious, epic Yakuza drama but then make things absolutely bonkers and silly in other places. It's a great mix of drama and comedy that most games just don't manage to do well.
I don't think this format works for games that do not have worlds with this level of detail and stuff to do. For example GTA V barely lets you enter any buildings or stores, it's far worse than San Andreas and IV in this regard. Yakuza games let you do all kinds of stuff that has zero relevance to the stories they tell and that's part of the charm. By comparison Rockstar games' side stories are pretty much always just a vehicle to get the player shooting shit up and tagging along for the ride. Witcher 3 does things better because a lot of its subquests are about talking to people and making decisions, just like Yakuza.
The games are so heavily story driven that you don't mind that you are running in the same settings so much. They change things a little for every game for better or worse to make it feel like the cities are changing. The level of storytelling is what puts Yakuza series above the rest. I love how they embrace the serious, epic Yakuza drama but then make things absolutely bonkers and silly in other places. It's a great mix of drama and comedy that most games just don't manage to do well.
I don't think this format works for games that do not have worlds with this level of detail and stuff to do. For example GTA V barely lets you enter any buildings or stores, it's far worse than San Andreas and IV in this regard. Yakuza games let you do all kinds of stuff that has zero relevance to the stories they tell and that's part of the charm. By comparison Rockstar games' side stories are pretty much always just a vehicle to get the player shooting shit up and tagging along for the ride. Witcher 3 does things better because a lot of its subquests are about talking to people and making decisions, just like Yakuza.
That' honesty puts me off the series, and I love 0 (which is the only one I've played).
Honestly I would love to see it if it was done well. It makes sense for Miles Morales to do it but tbh so would other New York super heroes. We would have been robbed of a lot of great Yakuza moments if they had to revamp everything between each game leading to fewer releases
I'm all for smart asset reuse and the Yakuza team does a great job with Kamurocho. At the same time, I am not sure their release schedule is something that every developer should strive for. It's excessive to the point that it becomes off putting. I haven't played Y6 or FotNS for this reason and still haven't gotten around to Judgment. But I am happy that they are mixing things up a bit with Y7.
I am currently playing the Spider-Man DLC and was thinking that if Insomniac at some point makes a faithful recreation of New York they could make multiple Marvel games set in it using a similar approach.
I am currently playing the Spider-Man DLC and was thinking that if Insomniac at some point makes a faithful recreation of New York they could make multiple Marvel games set in it using a similar approach.
AC team do this. And I hate it. I get the immediate sense of been here before which removes any curiosity and incentive to explore. I played a lot of Origins and could not bring myself to even look at Odyssey, same animations, same framework for objectives, same core gameplay but with more sea in between.
I already get that with Yakuza (playing Kiwami 2 ATM). It's ok for these games as I don't play them all (I skipped Y6 + KW1 because it wanted to start Dragon Engine game fresh with KW2). But that sense of familiarity is coming back and I'm starting to get bored with it.
I already get that with Yakuza (playing Kiwami 2 ATM). It's ok for these games as I don't play them all (I skipped Y6 + KW1 because it wanted to start Dragon Engine game fresh with KW2). But that sense of familiarity is coming back and I'm starting to get bored with it.
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I'd be well up for a nice rich open world city being spread throughout multiple games - especially if the games focused on different areas or different aspects of that city. Would be great.
The bolded is a matter of perspective. I find the Yakuza games very, very samey; I don't understand how people are able to play them back to back. I'd even use the word "monotonous" to describe them; despite their plethora of side games etc, they are at best minor distractions from a repetitive gameplay loop of low-effort button mashing brawler and very, very long cutscenes.
I really enjoyed Yakuza 0, but after playing a fair whack of both 6 and Judgment I'm glad they've gone in a slightly different direction for 7.
Yakuza as a series includes Kamurocho as its own character along with its inhabitants. Not having it at this point will be weird.
Seeing Kabuchiko in real life even feels like you already know the place like the back of your hand. I think this also plays to the magic of Kamurocho. It almost feels like a real place (it is).
Seeing Kamurocho in each series was like coming back home where everything is familiar but ever so slightly changed. Even looking at streets and buildings that had been an event but is not at all relevant in other entries. I think its something unique this series. It also helps that there is a different city that is also as interesting as Kamurocho is.
Weirdly enough, I am not sure if there are other games who can "reuse" assets at this scale that people will not complain about.
Games set in New York is kinda also like this but there never was the exact same feeling as Kamurocho. Spider-man is kinda reusing its map for Miles Morales but its going to be covered in snow which is interesting. We know no one will probably complain that its the same city but the question is if they will keep the map for the true sequel to Spider-man or if they will rebuild it entirely, even be 1:1 scale.
Seeing Kabuchiko in real life even feels like you already know the place like the back of your hand. I think this also plays to the magic of Kamurocho. It almost feels like a real place (it is).
Seeing Kamurocho in each series was like coming back home where everything is familiar but ever so slightly changed. Even looking at streets and buildings that had been an event but is not at all relevant in other entries. I think its something unique this series. It also helps that there is a different city that is also as interesting as Kamurocho is.
Weirdly enough, I am not sure if there are other games who can "reuse" assets at this scale that people will not complain about.
Games set in New York is kinda also like this but there never was the exact same feeling as Kamurocho. Spider-man is kinda reusing its map for Miles Morales but its going to be covered in snow which is interesting. We know no one will probably complain that its the same city but the question is if they will keep the map for the true sequel to Spider-man or if they will rebuild it entirely, even be 1:1 scale.
No because the way publishers in the west would take advantage of the opportunity would be way worse.
Besides they already do this for the most part you just don't notice because they do there best to not make it obvious. Sometimes it is though, with things like Madden or Call of Duty or Assassins Creed.
Besides they already do this for the most part you just don't notice because they do there best to not make it obvious. Sometimes it is though, with things like Madden or Call of Duty or Assassins Creed.
I'd like to see more familiar places in sequels, especially in open world games, and see how things have changed between games. But I'm sure people would complain.
For great games i would not mind "cashgrab" sequels. Olden days we used to have Doom/Doom2 like sequels all the time and it was great!
Unfortunately rarely we get single player campaign DLC now either :/
Would prefer companies like Santa Monica would have cranked out two or three God of War entries in the same locations this generation. Don't always need to reinvent the wheel.
Unfortunately rarely we get single player campaign DLC now either :/
Would prefer companies like Santa Monica would have cranked out two or three God of War entries in the same locations this generation. Don't always need to reinvent the wheel.
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Yep an Uncharted Lost Legacy kind of game, although that had an entirely new location!
A God of War stopgap sequel that takes place before the Thor visit would be nice if they have a good story to tell.
I don't have too much of a problem with the setting being shared between Yakuza games (though I'd much rather go to new places). I just wish that the location was a bit more intricate: there's far too many invisible walls and areas I'd like to explore but can't.
If I'm going to pay good money for a game I want it to offer some new shit.
I never really bought into sequels until recently because time and money are limited resources and I'd rather experience something completely new than something that feels like more of the same.
I never really bought into sequels until recently because time and money are limited resources and I'd rather experience something completely new than something that feels like more of the same.
Asset reuse is a smart way to stretch development resources and can be used very well, like giving us Majora's Mask, a wildly different story, from remixing the Ocarina assets. The Yakuza example is maybe not the one I would choose personally, however. I think it makes those games feel very repetitive. I really want to get caught up in that series but every time I jump back in to Kamurocho and go through the same tutorials it's really hard to push through.
Games like Far Cry and Assassins Creed sell because they promise to take players to different times and regions. That doesn't work well if the assets are recycled.
Fundamentally, Yakuza is a narrative game, a JRPG, so above all else motivates players to continue playing with character development and story arcs. As such, a continuous change in aesthetic context doesn't matter so much. Especially given that the narrative context is rather set in stone, Yakuza, the Japanese theme, and likely Tokyo setting is inherent to the name.
So, it depends on those factors really. If you look at franchises where it makes sense to recycle the setting, I think you see that in western game development too. People mentioned Far Cry, but there's also the upcoming Spiderman Mile's Moralis game, which takes place on the same map as the original Spiderman from Insomniac.
Again the key factor there is that New York is a specific and important place for the Spiderman story, so players don't have expectations that they will be going anywhere else. But for most games this doesn't apply, because the developers use the idea of a new setting in much of the marketing. Take the Elder Scrolls games for example, each game is themed after a distinct region and therefore, players always expect to go somewhere new. That's half of the excitement of a new Elder Scrolls game.
So to answer your question, it's already happening. If there's a way to cut corners and save time, then there are devs in both the east and west that are already doing it. There are a few franchises where I think this style of development could have been used, but isn't though. Life is Strange is perhaps a good example. I felt that they could have told more stories within Arcadia Bay. Maybe in a different time period, or with different characters, but I think they could have reused the setting as I felt there was still much to explore there.
Fundamentally, Yakuza is a narrative game, a JRPG, so above all else motivates players to continue playing with character development and story arcs. As such, a continuous change in aesthetic context doesn't matter so much. Especially given that the narrative context is rather set in stone, Yakuza, the Japanese theme, and likely Tokyo setting is inherent to the name.
So, it depends on those factors really. If you look at franchises where it makes sense to recycle the setting, I think you see that in western game development too. People mentioned Far Cry, but there's also the upcoming Spiderman Mile's Moralis game, which takes place on the same map as the original Spiderman from Insomniac.
Again the key factor there is that New York is a specific and important place for the Spiderman story, so players don't have expectations that they will be going anywhere else. But for most games this doesn't apply, because the developers use the idea of a new setting in much of the marketing. Take the Elder Scrolls games for example, each game is themed after a distinct region and therefore, players always expect to go somewhere new. That's half of the excitement of a new Elder Scrolls game.
So to answer your question, it's already happening. If there's a way to cut corners and save time, then there are devs in both the east and west that are already doing it. There are a few franchises where I think this style of development could have been used, but isn't though. Life is Strange is perhaps a good example. I felt that they could have told more stories within Arcadia Bay. Maybe in a different time period, or with different characters, but I think they could have reused the setting as I felt there was still much to explore there.
This. Despite it being the same it changes over the games. And they also add some new areas each game which adds to the flsvor.
I loved how we got a bunch of Atlus RPGs in the PS2 era and I imagine a large part of that was because there was a lot of enemy model reuse between SMT, Persona, and the various spin-offs.
love yakuza games but man i get burned out by them if i play too many in a row. i don't necessarily think i want all my games to follow this mold
They could do something similar to get away with it, like framing the "sequel" as a "standalone expansion". Just reuse the map and characters to tell a whole new story.
I guess Miles Morales comes kinda close to this, but on a bigger scale.
I like this idea in general. I'd be cool with increased asset reuse if it meant getting games from my favorite series every 1-2 years instead of once a generation. I'm thinking about games like Fallout New Vegas and Saints Row IV.
5 is the most massive yakuza game by far. The effort they put into it must be gigantic.
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I'm surprised they didn't so this after Persona 5. I thought having HD demons would lead to a renaissance of SMT spinoffs, but nope.
It took me over a hundred hours to finish. That game is massive
I dropped yakuza kiwami because it felt like I just played it after beating and loving zero and never went back to it.
So......no?
So......no?
Mostly not, thats the one thing I don't like about Yakuza, the recycling of Kamarucho.
I wouldn't mind top tier games releasing a smaller one off, like an xpac or something that PS2/PS3 era games used to do. GTA Vice City kinda stuff. Unfortunately all those guys have figured out online cosmetics are way, way better money makers.
I wouldn't mind top tier games releasing a smaller one off, like an xpac or something that PS2/PS3 era games used to do. GTA Vice City kinda stuff. Unfortunately all those guys have figured out online cosmetics are way, way better money makers.
Yeah I think that type of logic works best. You need a world design that is adaptable to gameplay styles but also is fun to explore and not too basic.
I know this isn't going to be super agreeable, but I picture a mushroom kingdom with the majority of mario kart tracks set in it. That one world gives you a mario kart game, a super mario platformer, a wario beat em up with abilities from enemies, a bowser "dark" game where he tries to capture the land, a yoshi game with egg aiming for puzzles, etc. I'd love to see stuff like that and you could trust the gameplay to work great too. I think the benefit is it frees up time for Nintendo to make more new ip and fzero and such :)
I actually think this could be quite cool and I feel like the Yakuza approach to a game world was what Bioware kind of was going for in DA2
honestly the thing I want devs to coppy is the syle of open world yakuza games doo (small but very detail places that feel like places) v the ubi methold (the massive world but the depth of a pudle.)
yakuza is in a unique place because sega can crank out 1000 of them annually there's no burnout there, very dedicated playerbase
not that the formula could not/should not apply to anything else but diminishing returns is a thing and can downright ruin an IP. not a 1:1 comparison but look at guitar hero
not that the formula could not/should not apply to anything else but diminishing returns is a thing and can downright ruin an IP. not a 1:1 comparison but look at guitar hero
Asset reuse is already much more common than people think, it's just that some devs are able to disguise it better than others. Yakuza is great, but they have some leeway with being able to some wacky stuff with characters and stories in every game so they can get away with reusing assets more than most franchises can. I don't think using the same map for Horizon 2 would work because that's a heavily exploration based game, and players want a new map to explore.
For Yakuza, it works because the city is the same but the story changes. Also, no one is going into Yakuza demanding it is the latest and shiniest of graphics.
A pair of the highest regarded games in China is Sword of Xuan Yuan 3 and Sword of Xuan Yuan Gaiden. (you may recall Xuan Yuan 7 is coming soon) And the dev did this a lot (4, 5, etc all had Gaiden entries), reusing the engine and a lot of the gorgeous 2d illustrations. It works well for RPGs, because the stories can be vastly different and still hold up. (3 was about a traveler going from France to China in Tang dynasty, 3 Gaiden was mostly about myth and fairy tales, though set about several hundred years earlier)
In these cases, fans are happy to revisit, as long as the new stories are good. Telltale was kind of doing this (I may be too harsh), and it worked for a while.
A pair of the highest regarded games in China is Sword of Xuan Yuan 3 and Sword of Xuan Yuan Gaiden. (you may recall Xuan Yuan 7 is coming soon) And the dev did this a lot (4, 5, etc all had Gaiden entries), reusing the engine and a lot of the gorgeous 2d illustrations. It works well for RPGs, because the stories can be vastly different and still hold up. (3 was about a traveler going from France to China in Tang dynasty, 3 Gaiden was mostly about myth and fairy tales, though set about several hundred years earlier)
In these cases, fans are happy to revisit, as long as the new stories are good. Telltale was kind of doing this (I may be too harsh), and it worked for a while.