Should games made with abuse be awarded?

[Bish_Bosch]

I think there are too many examples of media with problematic productions in film and other media for this sort of take to hold water. Apocolapyse now was brought up above and is a good accessible point of reference.

The obvious solution needs to be a lazer focus on unionization to ensure game workers have the same rights as workers on film crews who have extensive union protections versus getting lost in a less important discussion about whether crunch should cost x game a random award.

 

[Adulfzen]

Best Direction could get a pass as people tend to falsely attribute a Producer's role in causing crunch to the Director, as many devs have pointed out ad nauseum. But I agree that studios that push mandatory crunch and unsavory working conditions, that don't punish or excise leadership that harass and abuse workers, etc, should not be eligible for even a nomination for Best Studio awards.

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yeah I guess best direction can be open to interpretation in that case but as you said anything shining a positive light on the studio specifically shouldn't be "allowed" for a lack of better words.

and more than that, the focus should be on studios that have humane work conditions, the fact that SuperGiant wasn't more celebrated specifically for that is a giant blemish on awards ceremonies imo.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Someone who toiled on a game should be able to put their award winning game on their CV just because their bosses were bad at things it shouldn't exclude everyone. For me, the work of a collective needs to be considered and if there's 200 people working hard on a project they all won the award and it should be something they can list. If a specific aspect of a game wins an award - visuals, sound, writing etc - wins then that team should be recogonised for that.

Where it should factor is "Studio of the Year" and that should factor heavily.

 

[sirap]

Personally? No, I don't think we should celebrate these games. But you and I both know very few people share this opinion.

The hardware we consume these games on, the consoles themselves, are made by Muslim slaves in China. The games industry—journalists, publishers, media outlets—has turned a blind eye to this problem. If they can ignore something as horrific as that, well...

 

[nonoriri]

Personally? No, I don't think we should celebrate these games. But you and I both know very few people share this opinion.

The hardware we consume these games on, the consoles themselves, are made by Muslim slaves in China. The games industry—journalists, publishers, media outlets—has turned a blind eye to this problem. If they can ignore something as horrific as that, well...

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Nearly everything we consume or use has negative implications somewhere, nearly every modern day piece of technology is being built in those same conditions. I think that's what makes it a lot harder to draw a hardline on these issues. I mean, not to call them out, but I've seen OP posting around in anime threads, and animators in that industry face abusive crunch and low wages that rival or are even worse than that of the gaming industry. Does that mean OP and everyone who consumes anime is turning a blind eye to abuses in that industry and doesn't care? Seems a little bit like a broad brush to paint with tbh.

 

[Sabercrusader]

People still made those games and their work deserves recognition. HOWEVER, it should be standardized that IN THE SAME BREATH AS THE AWARD these practices are called out.

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I think this is a good compromise.

I definitely understand the idea that we don't want to reward developers that continue these awful practices. On the other hand though like many of said, the artists/programmers and such that worked on the game should be recognized when the product they helped create stands out above the rest.

So I think two changes need to occur. 1. We should start calling out these awful practices when the awards are given. Call attention to it, and don't mince words either. You have to make it sound really bad, otherwise I think it'll feel like a slap on the wrist. 2. We should also probably start calling out the actual workers and not just the developer heads. I understand you can't name all the members of the sound team for Last of Us 2 for example, but maybe specifically say that the sound team for Last of Us 2 really went above and beyond in making the sound design one of the most immersive bits of the game.

I don't know. My idea's probably not perfect, and I don't want to also say that people who think these games shouldn't be awarded are wrong in their thoughts. This is very nuanced, and I'm not certain if there's a perfect answer unfortunately. Awarding the games just incentivizes developers to continue their same patterns because to them clearly it works, but on the other hand, snubbing these games and preventing the actual team that worked on it from enjoying having their product they spent so many years of passion and effort on from enjoying the praise seems wrong as well.

 

[formasymphonic]

People still made those games and their work deserves recognition. HOWEVER, it should be standardized that IN THE SAME BREATH AS THE AWARD these practices are called out.

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On one side the people responsible for these issues absolutely shouldn't be applauded for it but on the flip side those who slaved away for years to create games/art shouldn't be ruled out because of their management teams shitty work policies.

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I think you are asking for a collective answer on something that can really only be determined individually. Everybody is going to have a different threshold for what is too much for them to stomach. This is the case with any consumer product. Maybe you can stomach the circumstances your iPhone were made under and maybe someone else can't. That's a personal thing.

People who make video games should be acknowledged and rewarded for their hard work, especially if it was under terrible conditions. However you should simultaneously be pushing for better working conditions and industry regulations in the same breath. Celebrating games and also demanding a more ethical industry doesn't need to be mutually exclusive.

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The people responsible for the abuse should be called out for it, but the people who slaved over their hard work deserve recognition.

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.

 

[oofouchugh]

I have bad news about consuming anything made under capitalism.

 

[ARobotCalledV]

I'll take what I said from another thread. It's honestly really simple.

Awarding games made from abuse says that 'the abuse, the cost of human lives, is worth the art'

Don't award the abuse and we say 'look at this great art made without abuse'

 

[ScaleboundGOTY]

Better take away the michilin star system as well, its way worse

 

[sirap]

Nearly everything we consume or use has negative implications somewhere, nearly every modern day piece of technology is being built in those same conditions. I think that's what makes it a lot harder to draw a hardline on these issues. I mean, not to call them out, but I've seen OP posting around in anime threads, and animators in that industry face abusive crunch and low wages that rival or are even worse than that of the gaming industry. Does that mean OP and everyone who consumes anime is turning a blind eye to abuses in that industry and doesn't care? Seems a little bit like a broad brush to paint with tbh.

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You can consume games, anime or any form of entertainment and still be critical of the problems surrounding them. It doesn't have to be black or white. A full boycott is an unrealistic expectation anyway. Awareness is more important, which is why it's crucial that journalists and members of the media talk about these problems.

Don't want to cover it? That's fine, just don't get in the way of people who do.

 

[Praedyth]

IMO, yes. Abusers should face their crimes and bad companies should face public backlash, but a game is a team effort. I don't think any one person can and should be responsible for ruining everyone else's well deserved praise.

What I think it's sad is how awards are just about praise and not self reflection. Why don't people recognize theirs mistakes in their speeches? Awards cerimonies shouldn't be all glamour, although awards should be all praise for their work.

That's what I think, anyway.

 

[AnimaRize]

I'll take what I said from another thread. It's honestly really simple.

Awarding games made from abuse says that 'the abuse, the cost of human lives, is worth the art'

Don't award the abuse and we say 'look at this great art made without abuse'

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So it's a paradox excuse then?

 

[trashbandit]

I think awards should be bestowed to the dev team, but there should also be "Most Abusive" awards as well. I know that no outlet would probably do this for fear of reprisal, but if so many outlets are going to give TLoU2 Game of the Year, they should at the same time name Naughty Dogs' leadership as abusive, not the studio as a whole, but name specifically the C-suite, directors, and producers. If you have the resources to produce a game like TLoU2, you have the resources to do it without the level of crunch that the dev team underwent,

 

[ARobotCalledV]

So it's a paradox excuse then?

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I'm not sure what you mean. I'm just saying if we don't award games made from abuse we can then award just as good games made without abuse, and that says the better thing because we're telling the industry that you can make great games without sacrificing lives.

 

[LucasMonclar]

It's complicated... as many have already pointed out, it would be very unfair (to say the least) to not recognize the effort of everyone who worked in the game. On the other hand, I totally agree with that Kotaku article that a game made under crunch conditions should never win the "best direction" award.

 

[TheGhost]

That's a hell no from me.
It would wipe out that top 3 from the other day but I don't care.

Get your shit together devs and stop grinding your employees.

 

[Rex Dart: Eskimo Spy]

No.

 

[nonoriri]

You can consume games, anime or any form of entertainment and still be critical of the problems surrounding them. It doesn't have to be black or white. A full boycott is an unrealistic expectation anyway. Awareness is more important, which is why it's crucial that journalists and members of the media talk about these problems.

Don't want to cover it? That's fine, just don't get in the way of people who do.

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Absolutely, that's what I was trying to get at. That it's important to discuss these things rather than create black and white blanket responses. Those too easily fall apart because of the inherent hypocrisy in how things are created in the modern world. So awareness and support/pushback can be a more effective strategy.

 

[Deleted member 1627]

"I was abused for years but man this award makes it all worth it."

Some of the posts in here are straight up bullshit.

 

[Deleted member 1627]

Better take away the michilin star system as well, its way worse

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Don't do this, it's not clever.

 

[sirap]

"I was abused for years but golly gee this award makes it all worth it."

Some of the posts in here are straight up bullshit.

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Yeah. No one in my department felt happy when Life of Pi won the Best Visual Effects award.

Not a single person.

 

[DOT_mjo]

So because a head of a company is a fucking creep or an asshole who overworks his employees, all those employees who made an amazing video game shouldn't receive praise? Now if the developers say absolutely fuck this game, then yeah of course no one should be rewarding that studio.

I have bad news about consuming anything made under capitalism.

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And at the end of the day, this! Like if we are going to start picking and choosing what invalidates someone from receiving awards, let's just be honest about everything being made under this system probably having some unethical aspects.

 

[Deleted member 1627]

Yeah. No one in my department felt happy when Life of Pi won the Best Visual Effects award.

Not a single person.

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That's rough man, you guys got an incredibly raw deal. I'm sorry.

So because a head of a company is a fucking creep or an asshole who overworks his employees, all those employees who made an amazing video game shouldn't receive praise? Now if the developers say absolutely fuck this game, then yeah of course no one should be rewarding that studio.

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Nobody said that. And praise, in the general term, can be caveated. Awards are a different kettle of fish altogether and should be strictly vetted before being handed out. It's not a difficult concept to grasp, at all.

 

[Hybrid Rainbow]

"I was abused for years but man this award makes it all worth it."

Some of the posts in here are straight up bullshit.

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That depends on your definition of "abuse". Systemic racism, sexism, sexual harassment and assault, and a general culture of fear? Fuck yeah that's abuse. Crunching for a game that unfortunately affects more than just the video game industry and is more an indictment of free form capitalism and work culture? Sure you can call it abuse, but that doesn't negate the work done by those not implicit in it.

 

[Deleted member 1627]

That depends on your definition of "abuse". Systemic racism, sexism, sexual harassment and assault, and a general culture of fear? Fuck yeah that's abuse. Crunching for a game that unfortunately affects more than just the video game industry and is more an indictment of free form capitalism and work culture? Sure you can call it abuse, but that doesn't negate the work done by those not implicit in it.

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Those "not implicit" don't get the award. It's the folks who are that get up there to accept them and are the focus of the praise.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't.

 

[Hybrid Rainbow]

Those "not implicit" don't get the award. It's the folks who are that get up there to accept them and are the focus of the praise.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't.

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? Come on now, that's ridiculous. If a game wins GotY and then a month later the lead director gets arrested for sexual assault, the award doesn't just vanish into thin air. That award was for the studio and everyone that made the game possible. Not every studio has a Hideo Kojima or a Neil Druckmann leading them.

 

[julia crawford]

This has a big problem, that you never know which games were made in good conditions. Bosses are unreliable, workers constantly miss what their colleagues are going through (especially with women/minorities), audits can miss a lot of things, etc.

There just really is no way to know. We only know the stories that go public, and even then, there's basically zero affordance that can given that it won't repeat in the same studio by the same people.

 

[Sparks]

ask any Dev what they think about this.

not long ago some journalists pushed this idea up on twitter and it was not well received by the many, many devs i saw commenting on it.

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Yea, devs love working super hard on something all the time and then being told they shouldn't be awarded cause we worked too much.

When the practices are completely fucked they should be called out independently of someones creative work and more focused towards management and the higher ups that imprint these practices.

 

[Mobyduck]

No. Neither should games made by companies with bigots in position of leadership.

 

[Jogi]

The fact that everyone is tip toeing around it shows how wide-spread an issue it is. I think reviewers should call out any issues at the top of the review, but don't think it should have an actual numerical impact on the review score. There's room to call out the company while praising the work of said people from it. Doubly so since those are usually not the same people.

Of course, companies aren't forthright in crunch, sexual harassment, etc; so it won't be easy to know. I think this should go to things far beyond games as well.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

It's too fine a line.

its ultimately about known abuse. I'm sure there's a shitload of unknown abuse and mistreatment going on out there.

What happens if a rule is implemented and a studio wins an award, then a few months later it comes out that they abused workers? Does the award get taken away? Do they run the ceremony again?

 

[Bernkastel]

 

[Falk]

you'd end up with publishers with divisions formed solely with the goal on digging up dirt on other companies to disqualify everyone else so they win more awards

 

[AnimaRize]

? Come on now, that's ridiculous. If a game wins GotY and then a month later the lead director gets arrested for sexual assault, the award doesn't just vanish into thin air. That award was for the studio and everyone that made the game possible. Not every studio has a Hideo Kojima or a Neil Druckmann leading them.

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The studios that actively encourage or ignore it, when it comes to ubisoft how many times did people report it and they did nothing, how many times was it revealed about ND's and their director's crunch practices were announced and still nothing was done. The studios and directors have gotten the awards the employees haven't gotten them

 

[Deleted member 364]

The best game wins the awards. Doesn't matter how they got there (within reason)

 

[Iva Demilcol]

No, but a lot of people in this hobby are pro corporations so they like to pretend that they still do deserve praise.

 

[Firima]

Not at all, and it really sucks that people who were affected are encouraged to handwave it because going through all that just to watch people shit on your work is probably huge emotional whiplash.

 

[elenarie]

ask any Dev what they think about this.

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A shit project should be recognised for what it has been. Not only for the end product it resulted into. Screw the actual games, the people you have, you work with on a daily basis, you stand shoulder to shoulder, that is what is ultimately most important.

 

[En-ou]

the passion many devs have for their work is the exact thing that helps companies exploit them

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or they have no choice because they could lose their job.

 

[Deleted member 2102]

Games getting awards feels unavoidable. Studios known for bad practices, like Naughty Dog, should not get awards for being "good studios" just because they put out one good game this year. That needs a more holistic approach.

 

[AnimaRize]

A shit project should be recognised for what it has been. Not only for the end product it resulted into. Screw the actual games, the people you have, you work with on a daily basis, you stand shoulder to shoulder, that is what is ultimately most important.

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so would you sacrifice the award if it meant that the company that was abusing you was getting not only called out but also not getting praised for making a good game while abusing it's employees

 

[elenarie]

so would you sacrifice the award if it meant that the company that was abusing you was getting not only called out but also not getting praised for making a good game while abusing it's employees

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Yes, absolutely.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

Accountability will never happen.

Abuse (crunch, sexual, financial etc) is not just embraced in this industry, it is openly encouraged. And the media outlets are both complicit in the treatment of developers and also guilty of doing exactly the same thing to their own staff.

 

[Budi]

It's an interesting question. I think devs and the product should get the recognition they deserve. But maybe don't hand out invidual awards to people like Druckman, Badowski and Housers atleast. And hopefully you're an outlet that discusses and condemns crunch in articles and other talks.

 

[A Syrian Communist]

Changing toxic work culture in the industry isn't going to be done from the outside like this. Rather, workers need to be supported and allowed to unionize, abuses of workers need to be reported on and taken seriously.

I don't think refusing to recognize the quality of the work these developers made helps them.

 

[arcadepc]

Only exception

 

[Vintage]

If your award category is "Game made without abuse", then no.
Otherwise, sure. I don't see how ignoring game's accomplishments in certain field helps fight abuse. There are better ways to do this.

 

[Tiny Chihuahueño]

Cancel awards for any game from a major studio then. 100% guaranteed you'll find bad stuff of all kinds at any studio if you dig deep enough.

 

[Dr.Osiris]

Devs deserve all recognition but companies should be judged (accordingly).