Should gacha and loot boxes be regulated?

[karnage10]

I think where people stand on this depends on whether or not they think gambling should be legal or not. As someone that has a relative with a gambling addiction, I believe it should be illegal in all its forms. It has the potential to destroy lives and ruin entire families.

I'm sure people will argue that adults should be able to financially ruin themselves if they choose to but I don't agree. When companies are hiring behavioral psychologists/economists to design these things to get people to spend more money than they might otherwise it becomes less of a conscious choice people are making.

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It is absolutely horrible how this isn't the opinion here.
I don't have any gambling or addiction issues in my family but it just requires us to open a journal to see what addictions can do. It is horrible taht people here are fine with that. I don't even udnerstand the reason on how someone goes:
" I like gambling and i don't mind it destroys thousands of families every year" I can't understand the lack of compassion; specially when there is so much entertainment that doesn't do as much harm around us.

 

[JuniperAndSage]

It is absolutely horrible how this isn't the opinion here.
I don't have any gambling or addiction issues in my family but it just requires us to open a journal to see what addictions can do. It is horrible taht people here are fine with that. I don't even udnerstand the reason on how someone goes:
" I like gambling and i don't mind it destroys thousands of families every year" I can't understand the lack of compassion; specially when there is so much entertainment that doesn't do as much harm around us.

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Because some of us understand what enforcing laws like this would actually look like.

 

[Dodgerfan74]

It is absolutely horrible how this isn't the opinion here.
I don't have any gambling or addiction issues in my family but it just requires us to open a journal to see what addictions can do. It is horrible taht people here are fine with that. I don't even udnerstand the reason on how someone goes:
" I like gambling and i don't mind it destroys thousands of families every year" I can't understand the lack of compassion; specially when there is so much entertainment that doesn't do as much harm around us.

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Yeah, it's just a lack of scientific literacy or common decency. These systems exist only to exploit and punish select groups of vulnerable people. That's literally the only reason. People are free to believe every person should simply regulate their behavior perfectly and resist these mechanisms companies spend millions designing to be exploitative as possible, but you should design regulatory frameworks around reality, and not fantasyland beliefs.

 

[Siyou]

These are predatory game with shady practices. I'd like to see them gone as soon as possible. I've seen people waste far more than they should on a hope of a dream of a feeling that they'll be content.

 

[karnage10]

Because some of us understand what enforcing laws like this would actually look like.

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Do you? Are you really saying it is better to let those people harm themselves instead of society trying to protect them?
Fuck me but that is extremely vicious.

Yeah, it's just a lack of scientific literacy or common decency. These systems exist only to exploit and punish select groups of vulnerable people. That's literally the only reason. People are free to believe every person should simply regulate their behavior perfectly and resist these mechanisms companies spend millions designing to be exploitative as possible, but you should design regulatory frameworks around reality, and not fantasyland beliefs.

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Indeed.

 

[RocketKiss]

It's amazing it was even allowed in the first place. Theres regulation in video games for ESRB shit, but not gambling. Ludicrous.

 

[theAllseeingEYE]

I think loot boxes and gacha mechanics can exist, but they definitely need at least a modicum of regulation.

Mainly,
- Exact odds and percentages should need to legally be shown in-game when viewing a loot box. (For example, no saying "below 1%", when actual percentage is disgustingly low, like 0.001 like FIFA FUT)
- There should perhaps be a legal percentage of odds that developers can't go below (like nongoing below 0.01% for anything that charges money for, or indirectly charges money for.
- There should be a maximum developers can charge for a single item, unless cleared by a committee (for example, no going over $199 for a single item).

 

[Dodgerfan74]

Do you? Are you really saying it is better to let those people harm themselves instead of society trying to protect them?
Fuck me but that is extremely vicious.

Indeed.

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Among other things, covid has made it quite clear that policies of "people will figure it out for themselves, obviously" are catastrophically insufficient for dealing with risk-related behaviors. Just assuming individuals will make optimal decisions across contexts ignores basically the entirety of social and behavioral science.

Even stuff as simple as banning virtual currency and requiring games to show a lifetime dollars spent in game shops could help address some of these concerns. Game dollars exist purely to abstract spending and provide no benefit whatsoever to the end consumer. Fucking get rid of them.

 

[JuniperAndSage]

Do you? Are you really saying it is better to let those people harm themselves instead of society trying to protect them?
Fuck me but that is extremely vicious.

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You can protect people with addiction issues by giving them access to mental healthcare and counseling.

 

[jediyoshi]

Do you thing there should be laws regulating gambling mechanics in games that use real money?

Personally I think there should because these mechanics exploit people who are vulnerable to gambling addiction.

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OP, did you mean should there be more laws?

 

[Ferrs]

You can protect people with addiction issues by giving them access to mental healthcare and counseling.

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And you can prevent people developing addiction issues with putting safeguards around gambling. It's true that people need better access to mental healthcare but we also need to prevent people ending up needing it.

 

[Alvis]

You can protect people with addiction issues by giving them access to mental healthcare and counseling.

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And you can do that while also regulating/banning inherently predatory practices.

 

[Dodgerfan74]

You can protect people with addiction issues by giving them access to mental healthcare and counseling.

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So your suggestion is to overhaul the entire US healthcare system as well as a variety of related structural systems rather than make minor changes to video games? Makes sense.

Also, the characteristics that make people vulnerable to exploitative game mechanics aren't necessarily clinical in nature. For example, human brains are really bad at odds and risk calculation. Even stuff like posting odds on loot boxes fails to address fundamental and obvious evidence.

 

[Fudus]

Shoud be regulated. Considering something as gambling just based on if you can win money or not is outdated, instead they should look at the methods used.

Also I sometimes see lootboxes compare to for example magic the gathering but the comparison only works at a superficial level, you buy a thing with unknown content and get stuff based on various rarities.
But magic the gathering is a physical game while the lootboxes are in digital games and that makes all the difference.

WotC cannot rigg the tournaments at your local game store in order to manipulate you to spend more money

Activision wins patent that uses matchmaking to make you want to buy stuff

Activision says the system is not is in place.

www.pcgamer.com

WotC cannot look at your current collection, your playstyle, habits etc and change the game on the fly to manipulate you to spend more money.
WotC does not have a store in your living room where you can buy and open packs instantly at all hours of the day.
WotC cannot collect millions of data points on your every interaction with their game and feed that data to algorithms and behavioral scientists to find more efficient ways to access your wallet.

The elaborate and insidious ways digital games can manipulate people should not be underestimated and when they have a "SHOP" button on the main menu it changes everything. Basically I'm arguing for not just regulating lootboxes but a whole host of devious practises.

 

[Doc Laserstein]

They should be banned outright.

 

[karnage10]

You can protect people with addiction issues by giving them access to mental healthcare and counseling.

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We already do that in Portugal. It is not enough because you can only give them mental healthcare and counseling AFTER they get in trouble. There is, to my knowledge, no way to know whom is susceptible in the entire population.
The Idea should be to NOT ALLOW people to get into trouble in the first place. Prevention is better than treating those that are affected.

Also adding new laws to make gambling hard is not incompatible to adding more resources to mental healthcare and counseling. You can and should do both.

Among other things, covid has made it quite clear that policies of "people will figure it out for themselves, obviously" are catastrophically insufficient for dealing with risk-related behaviors. Just assuming individuals will make optimal decisions across contexts ignores basically the entirety of social and behavioral science.

Even stuff as simple as banning virtual currency and requiring games to show a lifetime dollars spent in game shops could help address some of these concerns. Game dollars exist purely to abstract spending and provide no benefit whatsoever to the end consumer. Fucking get rid of them.

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good point. COVID has indeed clearly shown that far too many people will risk the life of others as long as it causes a minimum of inconvenience.

 

[purplemonkey111]

It should be regulated by forcing dev and publisher to release the rates of the gacha, and a 3rd party independent group to test to ensure the rate is accurate. Also, all game rating should disclouse if the game has gacha or MTX elements as well.

 

[FooF]

I stopped playing Genshin impact after reading the pull rates for a 5 star character which are 1/333(0.3%). It stopped me from playing but it didn't stop a couple of my friends form spending between $100 to $200 on pulls. It really doesn't matter if people see the abysmal pull rates these games have or not they're still going to spend money on them.

Also some of these gatcha games having mercy pulls after you pull 100 times or worse is fucking disgusting and preparatory.

they absolutely need to be regulated and if they can't find a proper way to do that then they should just be banned out right.

 

[Roliq]

They should at least add in all of them a safety net because the stories about people dropping $1300 and not getting the rate up character are too high (looking at you FGO)

 

[KaiPow]

Loot boxes/gacha machines that don't have a soft cap are the absolute worst (see: genshin impact). I think machines that take items out of the loot pool over time as they're acquired are manageable but still fairly predatory.

Genshin Impact is built in a way to encourage players to try and get four or five copies of the same card for maximum effectiveness.

Puzzle and Dragons used to do the same thing where you'd feed two cards together for a *chance* to raise its skill level. Now you can get element-specific cards as fusion fodder instead.

 

[mentok15]

If it's gambling with real money yes, if not I don't see why.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

If your business model doesn't work if the customer knows what they're getting then you need to fix your business model.

Regulating the exploitation of gambling addicts is still exploitation, just kill that shit and force them to make fun video games instead of casino emulators.

 

[CrimsonNocturne]

Ban them, and ban microtransactions in non-free games too.

 

[Chopchop]

I think it needs to be more strictly regulated. Like gambling, it's too easy for some people to get sucked in and ruin themselves. There need to be more protections agains thtat sort of thing.

 

[Mathieran]

Needs regulation. I don't think it should be illegal, but it should be the same as any other gambling.

I refuse to participate in the paying of money to have a chance at winning a digital item. I don't even gamble with money for the chance of winning real things.

 

[Poppy]

i honestly would probably think life was better if it was illegal but there's no reason i can conceive for that being the case so i'll just say that it should be highly less predatory, they probably should heavily restrict how much you're able to spend in any given week or month

 

[NightShift]

Yes. I am against rich fuckers taking advantage of people's mental health to turn a profit.

 

[Plax]

I think it needs to be heavily regulated. I'm not sure it should be illegal, though, personally I am against gambling so I'd support it. But I think regulation is the right step and represents an appropriate middle ground.

A good start would be publishing chance rates, along with limiting the value of micro transactions and the frequency/volume you can spend. I also think there needs to be language included in all Gacha storefronts around the dangers of gambling addiction, along with a link to a support service.

As for the discussion on this forum, I am often surprised how relaxed the topic of Gacha is. I personally think it's a major issue in the industry and people should be more vocal about it. However the discussion can feel quite dismissive at times, and I think it's due to terms like 'Whales' or 'Whaling' disguise what is generally problematic behavior.

 

[carlsojo]

Parents need to be accountable for their kids.

I'm not letting my kid anywhere near my credit card.

Loot boxes seem to be waning in popularity in general in favor of battle passes or direct purchases.

I would be surprised if gacha mechanics took root long term for AAA games. You'd see eventual backlash in the same way there was for lootboxes, and then they'd find another way to get your money.

At the end of the day I'd rather just buy my horse armor than work for it.

 

[LordBaztion]

regulation no further than disclosing when a game has microtrasactions and the the drop rate

 

[Einherjer]

If it's gambling with real money yes, if not I don't see why.

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It's always about real money, it doesn't matter if you don't have a chance to get anything real back gambling addicts will still throw thousands at it just for the kick since it works exactly like any other form of gambling in their brain.

 

[Einherjer]

Parents need to be accountable for their kids.

I'm not letting my kid anywhere near my credit card.

Loot boxes seem to be waning in popularity in general in favor of battle passes or direct purchases.

I would be surprised if gacha mechanics took root long term for AAA games. You'd see eventual backlash in the same way there was for lootboxes, and then they'd find another way to get your money.

At the end of the day I'd rather just buy my horse armor than work for it.

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Gambling addicted kids steal and lie like any other addict what are parents supposed to do there?
see: https://www.reddit.com/r/gachagaming/comments/j7lijz/by_a_stupid_teenager_with_an_early_gaming/ for example.

 

[Bulebule]

They should definiitely be much more heavily regulated and officially recognized as gambling by industry and law. They are there for players to spend money until they get what they want (whether it is real money aka slot machines, characters or items/equipments) = what they feel as being a return of investment. Guaranteed items/prizes doesn't automatically mean players get their desired item (what they find as worthless, same as getting no win in slots) from the item pool, so they spend more because you cannot get them otherwise.

18+ age rating and mandatory "includes heavy gambling elements for real money"-description would be a good start.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

You can't regulate video game math, you'd basically just be using the honor system and hope developers are being honest about it.

And if we're being honest, it's not going to help the overwhelming majority of players even if they are. It's an exploitative system, telling them it's ok to exploit peoples addictions as long as you show your math is absurd. Just tell them to put a price on their damn skins and anime girls. If your game is no longer viable because they know the odds of getting what they want then your game deserves to fail.

 

[carlsojo]

Gambling addicted kids steal and lie like any other addict what are parents supposed to do there?
see: https://www.reddit.com/r/gachagaming/comments/j7lijz/by_a_stupid_teenager_with_an_early_gaming/ for example.

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Well for one, I don't trust throwaway reddit accounts as a source of trustworthy information. The same way I don't trust random twitter accounts. For real, you think a sixteen year old wrote this?

There was a similar story on reddit being passed around as gospel from someone and their addiction to fifa lootboxes.

Again, as a parent I am responsible for my daughter. If I'm concerned that she shouldn't play games with gacha mechanics then I'm not going to let her play games with such mechanics. If she lies and steals, that's on me too, isn't it.

I'm also not going to let her smoke or drink either.

 

[BassForever]

I want them basically illegal ie classified as gambling and any game that has them is rated for adults only, which would basically kill them in 99% of games.

 

[BassForever]

Honestly I think the restrictions for gambling in the US go too far. There is absolutely no reason there shouldn't be legal sports books in every single state.

The thing with sports gambling though is you have realistic odds of winning, gacha is the ultimate advantage to the house. You're looking at 95% odds to lose to 5% odds to win in a lot of gacha based games (and I'm being generous counting 4 stars here and not 5). Loot boxes are way more predatory than traditional gambling unless you're comparing it to the Lotto itself

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Sports betting is also betting on two outside factors the house has no control over (outside of illegal scandal stuff). Gatcha/lootboxes are more like slot machines where the house decides how often someone wins and they set those odds incredibly low for a reason.

 

[Menchi]

There needs to be a realistic price cap for a pity system. Having it cost hundreds to thousands to obtain a specific item/unit or whatever, is just ridiculous.

 

[HDNA]

Some regulation that need to be implemented:

• The best characters/items should have at least 10% chance to pull, and 100% chance to pull after 20 pulls.
• You never get the same thing twice, once you get a certain item/character you would never pull them again.
• If 1 pull cost 150 ingame currency, then 10 pulls should cost less than 1500.
• After evey pull you get a currency that you can use to buy what ever item/character you want, and this currency never expire.
• No limited character/weapon bullshit, missing on a character that was only available on halloween/valentine means you can't compete on any endgame content should not be a thing.

 

[Dodgerfan74]

Some regulation that need to be implemented:

• The best characters/items should have at least 10% chance to pull, and 100% chance to pull after 20 pulls.
• You never get the same thing twice, once you get a certain item/character you would never pull them again.
• If 1 pull cost 150 ingame currency, then 10 pulls should cost less than 1500.

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Just sell the characters for actual dollars in a store like other things people buy every day. None of this stuff needs to exist.

 

[Einherjer]

Well for one, I don't trust throwaway reddit accounts as a source of trustworthy information. The same way I don't trust random twitter accounts. For real, you think a sixteen year old wrote this?

There was a similar story on reddit being passed around as gospel from someone and their addiction to fifa lootboxes.

Again, as a parent I am responsible for my daughter. If I'm concerned that she shouldn't play games with gacha mechanics then I'm not going to let her play games with such mechanics. If she lies and steals, that's on me too, isn't it.

I'm also not going to let her smoke or drink either.

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There are story's like that on the gacha sub and other places like it literally every other day and i highly doubt those are all wrong...
Lying and stealing are very common symptoms for any form of addiction so a lot of parents probably don't even notice their kid is an addict until the damage is done.
We have very strict rules in place for smoking, drinking and even drugs to protect children but not this form of gambling which is very clearly from the ground up built to exploit addicts and especially kids and teens which are even easier targets then adults.

 

[carlsojo]

There are story's like that on the gacha sub and other places like it literally every other day and i highly doubt those are all wrong...
Lying and stealing are very common symptoms for any form of addiction so a lot of parents probably don't even notice their kid is an addict until the damage is done.
We have very strict rules in place for smoking, drinking and even drugs to protect children but not this form of gambling which is very clearly from the ground up built to exploit addicts and especially kids and teens which are even easier targets then adults.

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I mean if your argument is that kids lying and stealing will circumvent "good parenting", then no amount of regulation will stop kids from getting around regulations.

My point is not that these mechanics and games shouldn't be regulated, they absolutely should. My point is that parents shouldn't depend on regulations being passed. Parents should take an interest in what their kids are actually doing, educate themselves, and their kids.

 

[Einherjer]

I mean if your argument is that kids lying and stealing will circumvent "good parenting", then no amount of regulation will stop kids from getting around regulations.

My point is not that these mechanics and games shouldn't be regulated, they absolutely should. My point is that parents shouldn't depend on regulations being passed. Parents should take an interest in what their kids are actually doing, educate themselves, and their kids.

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I can definitely agree with that i'm just saying the whole responsibility shouldn't fall to parents when there is a whole industry out there targeting kids and using every psychological trick they have to get them addicted to their product and they do this legally without any repercussions in most parts of the world.

 

[carlsojo]

I can definitely agree with that i'm just saying the whole responsibility shouldn't fall to parents when there is a whole industry out there targeting kids and using every psychological trick they have to get them addicted to their product and they do this legally without any repercussions in most parts of the world.

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Sadly this isn't limited to video games... look at how the tobacco industry moved on to Juul and that gross e-cigarette shit so they could market it specifically to children.

 

[JuniperAndSage]

And you can prevent people developing addiction issues with putting safeguards around gambling.

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And you can do that while also regulating/banning inherently predatory practices.

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So your suggestion is to overhaul the entire US healthcare system as well as a variety of related structural systems rather than make minor changes to video games?

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Ya'll keep talking about "minor regulations" and how simple rules about this stuff would be, but as with attempts at banning drugs and alcohol and tobacco and other addictive things, it not only doesn't work, but it requires a massive and extremely violent system to try and enforce these bans.

 

[Ferrs]

Ya'll keep talking about "minor regulations" and how simple rules about this stuff would be, but as with attempts at banning drugs and alcohol and tobacco and other addictive things, it not only doesn't work, but it requires a massive and extremely violent system to try and enforce these bans.

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There's already "minor regulations" of lootboxes and gachas and even flatout bans in some countries (Belgium) and their streets are not burning.

 

[Phantom]

It's 100% gambling. I'm not even sure why it's still available as-is.

 

[Selphie]

Ya'll keep talking about "minor regulations" and how simple rules about this stuff would be, but as with attempts at banning drugs and alcohol and tobacco and other addictive things, it not only doesn't work, but it requires a massive and extremely violent system to try and enforce these bans.

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A ban on gacha games wouldn't mean that authorities would raid homes of people who play the games, the regulations would dictate what kind of games can appear on the app stores.

 

[Twister]

No, I don't necessarily think games should be regulated in this manner. At most, I think they should be required to publish the odds of winning, but that's it.
if people are that against it, they would vote with their wallets.

 

[Powerofthecloud]

Not in games where they are catered to kids. Absolutely not, hell they probably shouldn't be legal at all if you're trying to take the well-being of everyone into account. But I'm not going to go that far but at the very least children should not be exposed.