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KushalaDaora

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,838
Uh oh, I suddenly found myself law. Hopefully there's a way to get back to neutral ...



I assumed the ability to rely on that would disappear soon, but I guess not? I'm in Ikebukuro trying to grind for cash.

Nope, I'm nearly at the end of the game (already get alignment lock), and all the boss so far can be stunlocked by Zio. And once you get access to multi hit gun and Charm bullet, you can pretty much Auto all random encounter using only Hero and Heroine, and makes negotiating less risky (charm them, then negotiate, so if the negotiation failed, they won't hurt you).
 

cj_iwakura

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,195
Coral Springs, FL
Finally finished DevSur 2's Triangulam arc. Good god.

Winged Flight for the win, screw those gates.

Went the new world ending. The 'fighting forever' option sounds badass, but incredibly stupid.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
Does the triangulum arc justify a replay? I enjoyed vanilla DeSu2 well enough, but couldn't stand the writing for more than two hours when I bought Record Breaker.

Lucifrost is the only reason I'm considering it as it stands lol.
 

Dragon1893

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,446
Does the triangulum arc justify a replay? I enjoyed vanilla DeSu2 well enough, but couldn't stand the writing for more than two hours when I bought Record Breaker.

Lucifrost is the only reason I'm considering it as it stands lol.

Pacing in the first half is atrocious and the writing is just as bad as in the original arc but the endgame isn't bad and the final choice presents interesting possibilities.

Also, make absolutely sure you have the winged flight skill on everyone or at least your main damage dealers for the final boss.
 

cj_iwakura

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,195
Coral Springs, FL
Pacing in the first half is atrocious and the writing is just as bad as in the original arc but the endgame isn't bad and the final choice presents interesting possibilities.

Also, make absolutely sure you have the winged flight skill on everyone or at least your main damage dealers for the final boss.
I kind of wonder if the battle wouldn't have been so bad if everyone and moved as a team towards the final boss, staying together and taking out enemies as they went... But screw that, I had winged flight.
 

ClearMetal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,281
the Netherlands
I liked that the character development from the Septentriones arc carried over to the Triangulum arc.

And what's this about the writing suddenly being shit? I mean, the game goes full anime at times, but other than that I think it's perfectly decent.
 

Dragon1893

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,446
I kind of wonder if the battle wouldn't have been so bad if everyone and moved as a team towards the final boss, staying together and taking out enemies as they went... But screw that, I had winged flight.

You get overwhelmed by the amount of minions it spawns.
You need to get to it asap and finish it as quickly as you can.
When I beat it it only took 2 rounds. I tried other approaches before that but unless you do some serious grinding I don't feel other solutions are viable, stick around for too long and it becomes too much.
 

cj_iwakura

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,195
Coral Springs, FL
You get overwhelmed by the amount of minions it spawns.
You need to get to it asap and finish it as quickly as you can.
When I beat it it only took 2 rounds. I tried other approaches before that but unless you do some serious grinding I don't feel other solutions are viable, stick around for too long and it becomes too much.
Yeah, but it doesn't spawn more until its HP drops, right? But the part after more start spawning is insane, they get like four turns to each one of the party's.

Also, True Phantasm works wonders too.
 

Dragon1893

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,446
I liked that the character development from the Septentriones arc carried over to the Triangulum arc.

And what's this about the writing suddenly being shit? I mean, the game goes full anime at times, but other than that I think it's perfectly decent.

It's been pretty consensual since its release that DeSu2's writing is very subpar by SMT standards.

Honestly, after the amount of cringe in this and Apocalypse, I'm getting worried about future entries in the franchise. These 2 games lowered the bar to a point I honestly thought I'd never see in a title under the SMT umbrella.
 

Dragon1893

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,446
Yeah, but it doesn't spawn more until its HP drops, right? But the part after more start spawning is insane, they get like four turns to each one of the party's.

Also, True Phantasm works wonders too.

Yeah, it's crazy.
Now that I think about it, I might've used True Phantasm and not Winged Flight, I don't remember, whatever got me there as fast as possible lol.
 

Sumio Mondo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,915
United Kingdom
It's been pretty consensual since its release that DeSu2's writing is very subpar by SMT standards.

Honestly, after the amount of cringe in this and Apocalypse, I'm getting worried about future entries in the franchise. These 2 games lowered the bar to a point I honestly thought I'd never see in a title under the SMT umbrella.

I'd like for Yoh Haduki (Devil Survivor 1 writer, Radiant Historia writer & Growlanser series writer) to write the next one. At least to change things up a bit, he normally writes story with suitable darker stories and he's talented, either that or just get Shogo Isogai (Strange Journey & Nocturne writer) back again. If they get the Persona series writers or Apocalypse writer on it though, SMTV is doomed on the story front, heh. If they get the SMTIV writer back (Yamamoto), it'll be mediocre again.
 

Dragon1893

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,446
I'd like for Yoh Haduki (Devil Survivor 1 writer, Radiant Historia writer & Growlanser series writer) to write the next one. At least to change things up a bit, he normally writes story with suitable darker stories and he's talented, either that or just get Shogo Isogai (Strange Journey & Nocturne writer) back again. If they get the Persona series writers or Apocalypse writer on it though, SMTV is doomed on the story front, heh. If they get the SMTIV writer back (Yamamoto), it'll be mediocre again.

I don't have any issues with IV or Persona.
Persona is anime but pulls it off well, it has no place in mainline and that's exactly what spin-offs are for.
I love Persona just as much as mainline.
Apocalypse unfortunately tries to "personafy" SMT and fails miserably, with a cast of characters that doesn't hold a candle to the Persona games.

DeSu1, like Persona, goes for a more anime approach but also pulls it off well enough IMO.
DeSu2 on the other hand doesn't manage to avoid the traps that are so common in anime and most jrpgs and completely destroys the line that was drawn between SMT and everything else. Now with Apocalypse we have a mainline game falling into the same pitfalls which is rather unfortunate.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
Hah, I was going to ask if Growlancer games had particularly good stories, I guess they probably do and DeSu1 wasn't a fluke. I was under the impression both DeSu games had the same writers too which made no sense to me, now I get it.

My beef with DeSu2's writing is that it's pretty much a bunch of extremely tired, bad anime tropes all the time except when things get serious, which was especially bad back then because DeSu1 was quite good all things considere. Apocalypse was quite the departure for mainline and had some AWFUL story bits, but I still consider it leagues ahead DeSu2

But anyway, thanks for the tips, guys. I'll get back to it eventually.
 

cj_iwakura

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,195
Coral Springs, FL
Hah, I was going to ask if Growlancer games had particularly good stories, I guess they probably do and DeSu1 wasn't a fluke. I was under the impression both DeSu games had the same writers too which made no sense to me, now I get it.

My beef with DeSu2's writing is that it's pretty much a bunch of extremely tired, bad anime tropes all the time except when things get serious, which was especially bad back then because DeSu1 was quite good all things considere. Apocalypse was quite the departure for mainline and had some AWFUL story bits, but I still consider it leagues ahead DeSu2

But anyway, thanks for the tips, guys. I'll get back to it eventually.
Growlanser II is incredible.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
Trying a friend's import copy of Deep Strange Journey.

Impressions so far: Zelenin just blushed at something I said.
 

Deleted member 2340

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,661
I'm currently watching a string of videos called "Shin Megami Tensei Bullshit!" by a few YouTubers I'm familiar with and I'm laughing at the level of salt in this videos. Some of it I can relate to and the rest of it is just funny.

"These dudes like, Kobe-Mudo!"
Lmao
 

cozyduck

Member
Oct 28, 2017
92

MoonFrog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
I only got into the second dungeon area in SJ when I tried it and I thought Zelenin was pretty professional and aloof.

Glad I got the original version even though the remakes for that and RH were announced shortly after I bought them.
 

Deleted member 2340

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,661
Devil Survivor 2's writing is game-ruining

I bought the original at released and the 8th day edition at release and I couldn't deal with it. I fucking hated Joe so much in the original version that I sold it half way through. On the 8th day edition I made it to the last day and just gave up on my first story battle that day because I couldn't stomach it anymore.

I still want to know how Atlus went from Devil Survivor story in the first one to some Barney and Friends cookie cutter bullshit in the second game.
 

p_m_zero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6
Will be very interested in the early reactions to SJR. Was planning to dive into the original soon, but now I'm having second thoughts about waiting, since I'll probably buy a 3DS at some point anyway. I tend to always play the "original" version of everything because the old school aesthetics are often the main draw for me (playing the SFC version of SMT I right now).

But in this case the graphical limitations are from being on a handheld, and the footage I'm seeing of SJR doesn't look that different aside from character art. Plus after SMT I I'm all about those "quality-of-life" enhancements.
 

Deleted member 2340

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,661
I liked the remake of the first one more than the original.

I don't care for the remake or original of the second one.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
DSJ does look quite better in person, but yikes, everything great and unique about the original is lost in the new style. Everything is so wrong... I honestly wouldn't touch it weren't it a remake of one of my favorite games in my favorite RPG series

The original is a masterpiece.

As for DeSu, the 3DS ports are pretty much the same as the originals but better, there's no reason not to play those instead.
 

randomelder

Member
Oct 26, 2017
184
Uh oh, I suddenly found myself law. Hopefully there's a way to get back to neutral ...

This also always happens to me! I think it has something to do with being too nice to demons in battles? Just look out for a place called Tokyo Destiny Land at some point in the game for a way to make some adjustments if needed, but it might not hurt to make a balancing chaos decision if you can.

Don't forget Sexy Dance. Free charm status for everyone.

Any time I get Lamia, the game becomes more of a cakewalk yeah.

Speaking of the SNES MegaTen games...Anyone played the Megami Tensei 1 and 2 remakes (Kyuuyaku Megami Tensei)? I only played the first one up to a point then gave up for somereason. Not out of frustration but just abandoned it. Thinking of diving into them again. Heard really good things about Megami Tensei 2, so I'm interested to play them. They were the last games Atlus made on the SNES, right?

Every Megaten fan who's willing to play the SNES games needs to give MT2 a shot, unlike MT1, it sets up the template for the rest of the series and does so many really cool things. It honestly makes SMT2, which borrows so much from that game it might as well be a remake, retroactively seem way less impressive. I had so much fun going through the fan translation.

In conclusion, Devil Survivor 2 is the only localized Megaten RPG I will never play.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
Not only the 8th day, DSO also adds new demons to some races that previously had big level gaps, the compendium and new skills that make a physical built more viable. There's no reason to go back to the original even if you're just playing the first seven days.
 

p_m_zero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6
also makes me a bit wary seeing "save anywhere" touted as a quality of life feature on DSJ since if I play the original it will be on an emulator
 

Inquisitive_Ghost

Cranky Ghost Pokemon
Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,120
The only part of the writing I liked in DS2 was seeing Trumpeter get beaten into submission with laptops.

As for Apocalypse, there was literally a part where the 'friendship!' thing got so strong I was expecting a social link rank up. It was unbelievably jarring.

I love Persona, but keep that shit out of the main series. They're different series for a reason.
 

cj_iwakura

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,195
Coral Springs, FL
The only part of the writing I liked in DS2 was seeing Trumpeter get beaten into submission with laptops.

As for Apocalypse, there was literally a part where the 'friendship!' thing got so strong I was expecting a social link rank up. It was unbelievably jarring.

I love Persona, but keep that shit out of the main series. They're different series for a reason.
I feel like that was why the Massacre route was put in. Pick an extreme.
 

KushalaDaora

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,838
The only part of the writing I liked in DS2 was seeing Trumpeter get beaten into submission with laptops.

As for Apocalypse, there was literally a part where the 'friendship!' thing got so strong I was expecting a social link rank up. It was unbelievably jarring.

I love Persona, but keep that shit out of the main series. They're different series for a reason.

Persona manages to executes the anime tropes pretty well, thanks to the social link and the settings. Apocalypse is just...no. The anime tropes just doesn't work with the premise and setting of mainline.

Speaking of Persona and mainline. I remembered comments in the subreddit on the SMTV reveal trailer. One person writes "Where's the waifu!" and someone replied "Probably in a Demon's belly". I just laughed so hard.
 

ClearMetal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,281
the Netherlands
I bought the original at released and the 8th day edition at release and I couldn't deal with it. I fucking hated Joe so much in the original version that I sold it half way through. On the 8th day edition I made it to the last day and just gave up on my first story battle that day because I couldn't stomach it anymore.

I still want to know how Atlus went from Devil Survivor story in the first one to some Barney and Friends cookie cutter bullshit in the second game.
...You sold a game because of one character?

The last page of this thread is just so odd to read for me. I loved DeSu2 and Apocalypse, anime tropes and everything. I don't know, maybe it's because I started with the franchise fairly late (DeSu1 was my first game) and wasn't there to experience the apparently godlike writing of the early (Shin) Megami Tensei games.

It's like I'm watching a football match with Messi and Ronaldo and my father is trying to convince me Pele and Maradonna were so much better.
 

Deleted member 2340

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,661
...You sold a game because of one character?


No. When I first played DeSu 2 original I was shocked on how different the story was from the first one. For me the writing and story was that bad and I hated Joe the character. In a mainline game he would/should be the first to go. Hell we all saw what happened to Toga (was it) and she was a hard ass.

Also the second paragraph of the post above yours also share what I had hope DeSu 2 would be.
 

Inquisitive_Ghost

Cranky Ghost Pokemon
Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,120
...You sold a game because of one character?

The last page of this thread is just so odd to read for me. I loved DeSu2 and Apocalypse, anime tropes and everything. I don't know, maybe it's because I started with the franchise fairly late (DeSu1 was my first game) and wasn't there to experience the apparently godlike writing of the early (Shin) Megami Tensei games.

It's like I'm watching a football match with Messi and Ronaldo and my father is trying to convince me Pele and Maradonna were so much better.

It's not that the writing was necessarily 'godlike,' (though I would definitely argue that DS2 and Apocalypse are below series standards), it's that a certain tone was set that runs counter to most other JRPGs. Multiple endings, present-day settings, bleak universes, and--the biggest one--the direct opposite of the 'power of friendship.' The protagonist ends up forced into positions where they have to murder all their prior companions instead.

There are more than enough JRPGs that still do all the friendly things, and Atlus even makes one of them (and does a better job of justifying 'friendship!' than many others, to boot). Trying to blur the lines between those series both requires fundamentally changing SMT's rather unique tone, and questioning why you even have two series if you're going to make them feel more and more the same.
 

cj_iwakura

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,195
Coral Springs, FL
...You sold a game because of one character?

The last page of this thread is just so odd to read for me. I loved DeSu2 and Apocalypse, anime tropes and everything. I don't know, maybe it's because I started with the franchise fairly late (DeSu1 was my first game) and wasn't there to experience the apparently godlike writing of the early (Shin) Megami Tensei games.

It's like I'm watching a football match with Messi and Ronaldo and my father is trying to convince me Pele and Maradonna were so much better.
Not a bad analogy.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
To be fair, Devil Survivor is not Shin Megami Tensei but its own spinoff series like Persona, so it shouldn't have to follow SMT tradition that closely. Still, DeSu1 was very in line with mainline SMT and then DeSu2 was a dumpster fire so yeah.
 

ClearMetal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,281
the Netherlands
No. When I first played DeSu 2 original I was shocked on how different the story was from the first one. For me the writing and story was that bad and I hated Joe the character. In a mainline game he would/should be the first to go. Hell we all saw what happened to Toga (was it) and she was a hard ass.
It isn't a mainline game, though. And he can die if you let him.

I do agree the story was a step back compared to DeSu1. A big step back in some regards. It was like there wasn't anything on the line. No fight for survival. One boss per day and then back to your save bed in the JP's facility. But I just seeing all these really strong opinions on the game and there's such a disconnect between them and my own feelings on the game. Like the game isn't just subpar, but it's atrocious. And the thing with Toki in Apocalypse wasn't just unnecessary, but it was cringe and awful. And I'm just like: what are you talking about? Was is really that bad?

It's not that the writing was necessarily 'godlike,' (though I would definitely argue that DS2 and Apocalypse are below series standards), it's that a certain tone was set that runs counter to most other JRPGs. Multiple endings, present-day settings, bleak universes, and--the biggest one--the direct opposite of the 'power of friendship.' The protagonist ends up forced into positions where they have to murder all their prior companions instead.

There are more than enough JRPGs that still do all the friendly things, and Atlus even makes one of them (and does a better job of justifying 'friendship!' than many others, to boot). Trying to blur the lines between those series both requires fundamentally changing SMT's rather unique tone, and questioning why you even have two series if you're going to make them feel more and more the same.
Yeah, OK. I can get that. By bringing the main SMT series closer to Persona and other spinoffs, you're ruining what made them unique in the first place.
 

Aeana

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,928
Trying a friend's import copy of Deep Strange Journey.

Impressions so far: Zelenin just blushed at something I said.
Throw it in the trash

Every Megaten fan who's willing to play the SNES games needs to give MT2 a shot, unlike MT1, it sets up the template for the rest of the series and does so many really cool things. It honestly makes SMT2, which borrows so much from that game it might as well be a remake, retroactively seem way less impressive. I had so much fun going through the fan translation.

ok hold on
we normally agree about Megaten stuff but SMT2 is still amazing even post-MT2. I mean, that's how I experienced the series and SMT2 was still my favorite SMT game until I played SMT3 Maniax.
And MT1 is still good. :(
 

Golnei

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,823
Trying a friend's import copy of Deep Strange Journey.

Impressions so far: Zelenin just blushed at something I said.

tumblr_n5v6jyX8VO1qffa83o1_1280.jpg
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
Speaking about older SMT... I wish they brought back the idea of recruiting generic human party members. I don't get why they didn't go for it in SMTIV/A, it seems odd Ashura-Kai and Cult of Gaea members would be completely unwillingly to join the main cast.

...You sold a game because of one character?

The last page of this thread is just so odd to read for me. I loved DeSu2 and Apocalypse, anime tropes and everything. I don't know, maybe it's because I started with the franchise fairly late (DeSu1 was my first game) and wasn't there to experience the apparently godlike writing of the early (Shin) Megami Tensei games.

It's like I'm watching a football match with Messi and Ronaldo and my father is trying to convince me Pele and Maradonna were so much better.

To be fair, the early games don't exactly have masterful writing either, but they just went for something very different atmosphere and story-wise from the more recent ones, so these new games going for something completely different will likely clash with people who enjoyed those older entries. For example, in the original SMT game, the law and chaos heroes are big archetypes that don't even have official names. The Heroine has character initially, but at a certain point she becomes just a generic love interest. However, even if you choose the neutral route and attempted to turn against both law and chaos, all disasters that happened in the other routes still would be there. You still would be left with only the same party member that would remain with you in the other routes. It wasn't presented as a better ending than law and chaos, just kept your character clean from participating in their actions, giving a very different experience from the current games where bonds save the day and even in something like IV Neutral route is something that you consciously need to go for, with the game deliberately making it hard to reach it.

Then you've got Nocturne which seems to be a big entry point for part of the fanbase, and is even further storywise from the modern games, where there weren't human party members or even generic npcs to talk to, and the few surviving humans were pretty much enemies of the player unless you choose to join their crazy plans.
 

ClearMetal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,281
the Netherlands
Speaking about older SMT... I wish they brought back the idea of recruiting generic human party members. I don't get why they didn't go for it in SMTIV/A, it seems odd Ashura-Kai and Cult of Gaea members would be completely unwillingly to join the main cast.



To be fair, the early games don't exactly have masterful writing either, but they just went for something very different atmosphere and story-wise from the more recent ones, so it'll likely clash with people who enjoyed those older entries. For example, in the original SMT game, the law and chaos heroes are big archetypes that don't even have official names. The Heroine has character initially, but at a certain point she becomes just a generic love interest. However, even if you choose the neutral route and attempted to turn against both law and chaos, all disasters that happened in the other routes still would be there. You still would be left with only the same party member that would remain with you in the other routes. It wasn't presented as a better ending than law and chaos, just kept your character clean from participating in their actions, giving a very different experience from the current games where bonds save the day and even in something like IV Neutral route is something that you consciously need to go for, with the game deliberately making it hard to reach it.

Then you've got Nocturne which seems to be a big entry point for part of the fanbase, and is even further storywise from the modern games, where there weren't human party members or even generic npcs to talk to, and the few surviving humans were pretty much enemies of the player unless you choose to join their crazy plans.
I see... Thanks for the explanation. What you described in the first paragraph reminds me a lot of Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together. It also had three routes (also law, neutral and chaos) and there was no 'best' option; people would die, sacrifices had to be made and the main character would be called out on his choices regardless (in law for blindly following orders, in neutral for being wishy-washy and in chaos for walking away from his responsibilities, if I remember correctly). I don't consider myself a big fan of these sort of stories, but they are becoming increasingly more rare.
 

randomelder

Member
Oct 26, 2017
184
ok hold on
we normally agree about Megaten stuff but SMT2 is still amazing even post-MT2. I mean, that's how I experienced the series and SMT2 was still my favorite SMT game until I played SMT3 Maniax.
And MT1 is still good. :(

I liked MT1! I was just saying it doesn't set up the template for the series as we know it like 2 does for people who were scared by it.

Also. I liked SMT2! It just didn't seem as impressive when I noticed how much was cribbed. It's also weird how it seems like there's less backtracking in MT2, and the atmosphere and set up of things like
the Makai and the final boss encounter
seemed much cooler to me. Also SMT2 doesn't have that amazing intro or the
LOSARM
status.

Dammit I do not have the time right now to replay Megami Tensei 2, gotta stop reading this thread.

Edit: what is even happening with these spoiler bars on this site, messy.
 

Deleted member 2699

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
619
Hows it hanging SMTera.

So the SMTV trailer got me in the mood to play an old school SMT game so I booted up Soul Hackers on my 3DS and started a new game, but I've run into a game breaking bug. After the first vision quest my MC contracts the dying status. After taking a few steps in the next area it immediately leads to a game over screen. I've already tried restarting the game once, but I still ran into the same bug. Does anyone know what triggers this so I can avoid it, and get the game started for reals?