Filled the chalice of hope, did the victory lap around Tokyo (cheesy, but it works) and now I'm on my way back to Mikado to deal with God's Chariot. After that it's the demon lord's turn and I can't imagine there being much left afterwards. I guess I'll see soon enough...
I should go back and do neutral SMTIV at some point. I was close to being able to do it, I think, given the wishy-washy choices I made and the way certain bosses talked to me, but I failed to make it to the middle path. It was an experience having to make one awful choice or the other in the end. I'm kind of glad that happened though, even if it did make me step away from the game for a spell. I feel like I was forced to face an ending I'd usually avoid and an ending of the sort I could easily avoid in the other SMT games I've played (Nocturne and SMTIVA).
I should also play Nocturne again at some point and go for the True Demon ending. I did all the fiends on my first playthrough but I went for the traditional neutral ending at the end instead of getting through the kalpas because I wanted to experience that first. (I did do the extra Masakado dungeon at some point during the final dungeon though).
I've just played all these games within the past 6 months or so, but I want to play them again sooner rather than later. We'll see. I think I'm going to try and get through SMT1&2 and SJ at least before replaying IV or Nocturne. That'll be a ways off and I still have a bunch of the spin-offs to play too. All the talk of Soul Hackers, Devil Survivor, and early Persona in here makes my desire to play these games more urgent too.
I asked for SMT1&2 SNES fan translations as a gift this Christmas and I think I should be plenty hungry and refreshed for another SMT deep dive at that point.
I actually think the Neutral ending is the one you have to play last. I haven't played Law and Chaos endings myself so I don't know exactly what happens in them (although I've read about it), but I figure they fully reveal where Lucifer and Merkabah suddenly come from. That was one thing the Neutral ending failed to do. It basically goes like: here, complete a bunch of challenge quests, take down these two bosses, the end.
There are hints, of course. The four archangels appear briefly when Merkabah takes on its second form. Lucifer's fetus hand wears Walter's blue scarf. Jonathan's scarf, meanwhile, can be found in the cocoon in Mikado where the archangels appeared before the alignment lock. But depending on how long you take to complete all the quests, there can be 5 to 10 hours between defeating Kenji in Infernal Tokyo and finding out what happened to Jonathan and Walter. In the meantime, the game all but ignores them.
I feel Jonathan and Walter's alignments could've been handled better, too. As in: the way they act in Blasted/Infernal Tokyo isn't so extreme that I find it believable that they'd immediately seek out Lucifer/the archangels after they return and offer their bodies to form Lucifer/Merkabah.
Of course, playing Neutral last would mean you either have to do three separate play throughs or juggle your save files. That's a bit too much to ask for in my opinion. I had rather seen some extra exposition being added to the Neutral route.
I actually think the Neutral ending is the one you have to play last. I haven't played Law and Chaos endings myself so I don't know exactly what happens in them (although I've read about it), but I figure they fully reveal where Lucifer and Merkabah suddenly come from. That was one thing the Neutral ending failed to do. It basically goes like: here, complete a bunch of challenge quests, take down these two bosses, the end.
There are hints, of course. The four archangels appear briefly when Merkabah takes on its second form. Lucifer's fetus hand wears Walter's blue scarf. Jonathan's scarf, meanwhile, can be found in the cocoon in Mikado where the archangels appeared before the alignment lock. But depending on how long you take to complete all the quests, there can be 5 to 10 hours between defeating Kenji in Infernal Tokyo and finding out what happened to Jonathan and Walter. In the meantime, the game all but ignores them.
I feel Jonathan and Walter's alignments could've been handled better, too. As in: the way they act in Blasted/Infernal Tokyo isn't so extreme that I find it believable that they'd immediately seek out Lucifer/the archangels after they return and offer their bodies to form Lucifer/Merkabah.
Of course, playing Neutral last would mean you either have to do three separate play throughs or juggle your save files. That's a bit too much to ask for in my opinion. I had rather seen some extra exposition being added to the Neutral route.
I played Neutral first and if you're only going to play one ending I think that's the one to get (more content, more of a sense of resolution). But...
...are you ever told explicity who Hikaru was if you don't go the Chaos route? I guess it's incentive to play NG+ but I also feel like a lot of players who don't do replays for other endings could, for example, completely miss out on who the little girl was as well.
I'm nearing the end of Persona 3 and am on what they keep saying is "the final battle", even though I'm not stupid and seriously doubt it is.
Strega dudes were pushovers, but Hanged Man is frustrating simply because of AI-controlled party members inability to recognize a basic pattern, or setting someone on heal/support and they are extremely stingy with Mediarama. I ended up going back to my save from 10 days before the full moon so I could get two more levels (51-53) and get some better Personas. I came out of that with many good ones including Surt, Pazuzu, Daisoujou.
Also I tried Fuuka's Oracle skill... Never again, just reduced my party to 1HP.
I feel like 99% of the problems with P3's combat would be solved with direct control of party members, and maybe it is fixed on PvP. It's aggravating to have bosses with a certain pattern that you could exploit if you had control, but you don't, so most of the time they fuck you over more than anything.
Persona 1 and 2 had this right, I don't understand why they felt the need to change it in P3. I get they want you to "trust your friends" or whatever, but the AI sucks and they are more of a hindrance in some situations.
I'm glad demons don't do this in mainline SMT games.
To be honest I always thought the AI party member had a certain charm, P3 felt designed so you *are* the MC and the other characters are their own people (You can't even change their equipment directly). It's not a particularly happy choice from a gameplay point of view, so I can see why people disliked it and it was removed.
I feel like 99% of the problems with P3's combat would be solved with direct control of party members, and maybe it is fixed on PvP. It's aggravating to have bosses with a certain pattern that you could exploit if you had control, but you don't, so most of the time they fuck you over more than anything.
You have direct control of your party members in P3P and it makes the game super easy. It turns out that the game is balanced around your party members behaving like idiots and wasting turns. It's still way more enjoyable than the base game though.
Yeah, the way SMTIV's story was designed expecting people to play the game multiple times was a mistake. Each playthrough should have been standalone like in previous games, not leaving big gaps.
Are you talking about when Jonathan and Walter split and you need to meet one of them? No, that's not the route lock. Although if you constantly sided with Walter's choices and went with him it's very likely your alignment will be very chaos aligned by that point and it'll be hard to get to neutral.
Are you talking about when Jonathan and Walter split and you need to meet one of them? No, that's not the route lock. Although if you constantly sided with Walter's choices and went with him it's very likely your alignment will be very chaos aligned by that point.
That means you're somehow law aligned. Did you do the arena quests? If you spare your opponents you get law points, if you kill them you get chaos points. There's also that woman who asks if you're a human or demon, you get a lot of law points there too, IIRC. Anyway, this might actually help you get closer to neutral then.
Just throwing in my love for Persona 3's aesthetic. It makes the game ultra cool and stylish and atmospheric, despite its budgetary limitations
I started on P3FES and then did 90% of my playthrough on P3P. I don't understand why Atlus hasn't released a "complete" version of the game yet (please on a handheld! I guess in this day and age that only means Switch), surely it'd only occupy a few people for 6 months or so and easily recoup its financing
I never quite finished SMT4 but I really liked the game (tbh too much battling and wandering around confused in Tokyo). TOkyo map theme was fantastic. I got a bit beyond the
Walter/Jonathon split and kinda ran out of steam. I watched the end on youtube and it seems pretty confronting.
Everyone seems to speak highly of Apocalypse so I guess I should get into that eventually.. seeing as SMTV is a ways away at least
To be honest I always thought the AI party member had a certain charm, P3 felt designed so you *are* the MC and the other characters are their own people (You can't even change their equipment directly). It's not a particularly happy choice from a gameplay point of view, so I can see why people disliked it and it was removed.
You have direct control of your party members in P3P and it makes the game super easy. It turns out that the game is balanced around your party members behaving like idiots and wasting turns. It's still way more enjoyable than the base game though.
Yeah I feel like even if it does become super easy in P3P, I feel like that's a problem with how they designed some of the bosses then. Case in point: Justice and Chariot. That shit goes on like 5x longer than it should because of your party members' inability to recognize a basic pattern and keep fucking it up every time so you are effectively starting the battle over again.
Assuming I have seen the last of them, I have to agree.
Also Chidori they really made fall flat. Junpei's an idiot, we knew that already, but he has to be so fucking stupid to be like "Hello oddly dressed lady, we go hunt shadows at night and shit, isn't that cool?! Don't try to kill me, kthx." And then she does, but then he's all "I'm in love with you and shit" Then they talk about him going to visit her in the hospital every day, and now I haven't heard from her in an in-game month. Surely they can't be done with her plot thread, can they?
They also just seem to forget the fact that she was part of Strega and never talk about it. I don't think she ever mentioned to the cast that she was part of Strega, but given all the shit she's spilled surely she wouldn't leave that out.
I would hope they at least explain after more details about how Takaya and Jin got their Personas though. Otherwise they just die and it seems like they didn't really go anywhere with their plotline. I guess they also aren't going to talk about the revenge website either?
Just throwing in my love for Persona 3's aesthetic. It makes the game ultra cool and stylish and atmospheric, despite its budgetary limitations
I started on P3FES and then did 90% of my playthrough on P3P. I don't understand why Atlus hasn't released a "complete" version of the game yet (please on a handheld! I guess in this day and age that only means Switch), surely it'd only occupy a few people for 6 months or so and easily recoup its financing
I never quite finished SMT4 but I really liked the game (tbh too much battling and wandering around confused in Tokyo). TOkyo map theme was fantastic. I got a bit beyond the
Walter/Jonathon split and kinda ran out of steam. I watched the end on youtube and it seems pretty confronting.
Everyone seems to speak highly of Apocalypse so I guess I should get into that eventually.. seeing as SMTV is a ways away at least
Yeah Atlus kind of sucks at releasing "complete" versions of games. Whether it's in general or just localizing. P3 has it's obvious issues, but P1 we either have the shitty localization PS1 version available in English (and also costs an arm and a leg if I remember correctly), or the good localization PSP version, but without the original music (unless you count the original music patch for emulators). For P2, IS was not released in English on PS1, but we got the PSP version. That game, to my knowledge there's nothing really wrong with it, but then with P2 EP, that was released on PS1 back in the day, but for some reason they cancelled the English release of the PSP version and just re-released the PS1 version instead. P4G for the most part is the "complete" version, unless people really hate Marie that much that they don't want her in the game. Atlus has released remakes and ports of SMT I and II on other platforms plenty of times, but they have never re-released Nocturne on a different family of platforms. They only released it on PS2 and the PS3 PSN version. It's honestly kind of strange they have never remade or at least had an enhanced port of Nocturne anywhere. I think it would have been neat to maybe to a Nocturne port to Switch to build hype for SMTV, or if they wanted to get really creative, do an SMTIV style "de-make" of Nocturne on 3DS. While it wouldn't look as good, demakes like that are kind of neat. Devil Summoner PSP, had an opportunity on PSP when it was remade, but was still never released outside Japan. NINE I don't think anyone really cares about, so that one isn't an incredibly big deal.
Also yes, Apocalypse is good, despite some story and character beefs, I think most agree it's a good game. It does have some of the upper tier of gameplay in the series though, and fixes almost all of the issues with SMTIV's combat (you can't do Agi Jack Frost anymore, etc.)
A US version of EP PSP was never on the table. They never outright said why, but common assumption is because Atlus JP didn't want to allocate the manpower to help code it.
IS PSP's only flaw is 'Masked Circle' instead of 'Masquerade', and the nerfed difficulty.
Doesn't IS PSP also have a more stiff translation compared to Tom's one? Like I remember the characters calling Maya "Big Maya" and weird stuff like that.
Well, it still is the best version because of the ability to skip animations in battle.
Doesn't IS PSP also have a more stiff translation compared to Tom's one? Like I remember the characters calling Maya "Big Maya" and weird stuff like that.
Well, it still is the best version because of the ability to skip animations.
They're both good translations, but I do think the fan translation is slightly more professional(ironically). Though it does have some irritating things like 'Michelle', and a LOT of random profanity.
A US version of EP PSP was never on the table. They never outright said why, but common assumption is because Atlus JP didn't want to allocate the manpower to help code it.
IS PSP's only flaw is 'Masked Circle' instead of 'Masquerade', and the nerfed difficulty.
The bad news is that unusual circumstances have prevented us from localizing Eternal Punishment PSP the way we'd have liked to, but the good news is that you can still find out how the story of Tatsuya Suou, Maya Amano, and the Joker curse ends!
True, I thought maybe it was a similar situation to Devil Summoner PSP maybe, where there was supposedly that rumor of that weird limitation Sony USA was imposing on ports on PSP.
I think this thread broke me and I now have a raging urge to play SMT4 Apocalypse. I'm glad they made this game because I utterly loved 4 and I wanted to plunge back into the world but I wanted to hold off as much as I can to re-experience it like a new experience.
This track was the breaking point for me. If Koduka isn't the main composer of 5, I will be upset.
I think this thread broke me and I now have a raging urge to play SMT4 Apocalypse. I'm glad they made this game because I utterly loved 4 and I wanted to plunge back into the world but I wanted to hold off as much as I can to re-experience it like a new experience.
This track was the breaking point for me. If Koduka isn't the main composer of 5, I will be upset.
I think this thread broke me and I now have a raging urge to play SMT4 Apocalypse. I'm glad they made this game because I utterly loved 4 and I wanted to plunge back into the world but I wanted to hold off as much as I can to re-experience it like a new experience.
This track was the breaking point for me. If Koduka isn't the main composer of 5, I will be upset.
So I figured I first complete my ongoing playthrough of Apocalypse. I was already in the absolute final dungeon of the game and I think I'd regret not getting the NG+ unlocks. But Goddamn, what a clusterfuck of a dungeon it is. No wonder I called it quits the first time around.
The black and blue aesthetic is a breath of fresh air compared to IV, though. Not that I really minded the white and orange colors in that game, but this feels way easier on the eyes. I also realized that, by not playing IV first, I didn't fully appreciate the mapper function in my first playthrough of Apocalypse.
Anyone else think negotiations need a rework? They weren't bad in the IV duology, but I wouldn't mind more options and less RNG moving forward. It'd also be cool talk with demon allies during and after battles.
I like when there's a small luck factor, oddly enough, but I thought they were great in Persona 5 where there's none and it's all about interpreting the dialogue carefully. I'd like if they used the same system in V with a few additions.
I totally called Ikutski, although didn't know why until the reveal. However I really felt like they were over and done with him too quickly. They just did the reveal and then killed him off. It's kind of like how they handled Strega, there was potential there but they just missed the opportunity.
I would think they would have noticed that the Dark Hour wasn't disappearing as it didn't as soon as they defeated the Hanged Man. Maybe they'll answer this down the line, but what about the obvious downsides of leaving the shadows alive? People still continued to get Apathy Syndrome and potentially die from it.
I got through the first miniboss of the next block, made it to the floor with the boss, although is it another miniboss? It said there were three powerful shadows on that floor instead of the usual one. I'll probably defeat that tonight, and then proceed from there. There's the school trip coming up in a few days.
Also that new transfer student that is totes not a villain I felt was introduced some quickly, unless it's some situation of "you already knew him the whole time!"
Anyone else think negotiations need a rework? They weren't bad in the IV duology, but I wouldn't mind more options and less RNG moving forward. It'd also be cool talk with demon allies during and after battles.
I liked the Raidou 2 system and all, but I don't want failure to be impossible. Being completely honest, I've always wanted a more predictable negotiation system that has more dire consequences for failure. Such consequences don't work when reactions aren't predictable in some way, though, like the Persona 1/5 way (which I do think is a bit too dial-an-answer).
I thought negotiations were reasonably good in P5, as the demon's personality at least gave you something to go on. I didn't like IV's system as much, as I never knew what I had to answer. I think I got pretty good at them in the end, though. When the negotiations start of well, you give them two things and end the talks; if things start off bad but the demon gives you a change, you give them three things and then end the talks. Had a almost 100% success rate with that strategy, at least if the demon didn't walk away at some point.
Also enjoyed how they recognized you if you owned them before in P5 (and Apocalypse too, I think?) and they joined you instantly.
Speaking of Apocalypse, the penultimate boss is down. Wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, although he nearly wiped me in the end when I chose an answer that greatly increased his stats (as well as mine, for all the good it did when he one-shotted me). Only Matador remained standing on my team and I prepared for a reset. Then my turn begins and Toki promptly kills the boss. I don't think her insta kill works on bosses, so I guess Matador could've finished the job as well.
Still a funny "what the fuck did just happen?" moment, though.
I still want to know if demons of the same species share a consciousness, or at least, memories.
Demons in SMT games remember you even if you fused them off, or in Apocalypse for instance when they tell you to talk to them again. Plus in Apocalypse when Asahi keeps saying "We should talk to X sometime", seemingly implying they are one being. It would also go along with the idea of Personas in Persona 5, when the demons agree to join you as a Persona, they "remember" that they are you and you are them.
I agree, yet they still remember you even if you fused them off.
I've also wondered if fusion is not actually literally fusion two demons together, but rather trading them into a system for a new demon. In SMTIV I believe (it was that or Devil Survivor), some Demons say when you fuse them that they hope you make them something awesome.
Yeah it'd be strange if the demons you create are continuous somehow in memory or consciousness with both the demons they are fused from and the demon species they are. Taking everything together, you'd seemingly have various demon species subsuming the entirety of something mental from other demon species, with the demon being used in fusion sharing with its peers and the fused demon sharing with its.
It'd also be weird when you summon back a demon you just used in fusion, because then you'd have two distinct being simultaneously continuous with the being you used in fusion.
Or perhaps that is just a cut-off point when fusion or evolution occurs.
Fused Odin specifically for the final boss. Pretty happy about how he turned out:
Gungnir +5
Thunder Reign +7
Charge
Concentrate
Magaon
Dekaja
High Phys Pleroma
High Elec Pleroma
Will probably replace Concentrate with Phys Pleroma and High Elec Pleroma with Drain Force when he learns them. Physical seems like the way to go here, since Gungnir has innate pierce, while Thunder Reign would depend on Will of Thunder to pierce. And Thunder Reign is multi-target, which I think is slightly less powerful on single-target enemies than, well, a single-target skill would be.
Now to tie up some loose ends and then I can finally challenge the final boss and start my NG+ playthrough.
That means you're somehow law aligned. Did you do the arena quests? If you spare your opponents you get law points, if you kill them you get chaos points. There's also that woman who asks if you're a human or demon, you get a lot of law points there too, IIRC. Anyway, this might actually help you get closer to neutral then.
It depends on how far you're into Law alignment wise. Given that you thought you were Chaos, though, I'd say it's definitely possible.
I think the best option to be sure is to retrace the choices you made so far, what you're current score is and what choices you need to make to get Neutral. I've read about people dilligently staying between -8 and + 8, only for the final choice (either -10 or +10 depending on what answer you pick) to still lock them into Chaos/Law.
This sheet helped me a lot since it has all the answers and the points they give. Be warned of spoilers, though!
ClearMetal the thing is I'm opposed to law's ideals but I still do law things. I think the game's alignment system is flawed? I'll check out that sheet, thanks!
To be honest, it feels like some of the dialogue choices don't line up witht the alignment point they give. Sometimes it seems regress into a case of law being nice and chaos being a dick for no reason. Such as with that woman who asks you if you're human or a demon.
But in the hunter tournament, on the other hand, it makes sense. You lose, you die. So killing your opponents would indeed net chaos points. While law is about preservation, so sparing them gives you law points.
yeah SMT4's alignment system is a trainwreck and one of the game's biggest problems. You have to veer between active choices of cartoonish evil and basic human decency in order to stay neutral, rather than the more thematically appropriate route of spurning everyone other games use, and even then you can be TOO neutral by the time the big choice comes around which is just miserable design. And to rub it in, Law is not only the easiest path to accidentally end up on, but feels the most like a Bad End or the wrong path in a choose your own adventure book, even by series standards.
Law was the ending I got in IV. It was horrific but as I said above it was kind of interesting to see an ending I'd steer clear of easily in the other games.
