Shenmue III is timed exclusive to Epic Games Store, backers PC code redeemed on EGS & no refund (See Threadmark) [READ STAFF POSTS BEFORE POSTING]

[Era of not Yakuza]

I put 60 dollars and always planned to get the PS4 disc
But I just can't see this shit deal with epic game store and do nothing.
Unfortunately since we won't get a refund I will sell my copy and buy on steam later.

 

[Madjoki]

The thing that really blows my mind is that Epic could have gotten something like Destiny 2

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It seems like they tried. Galyonkin retweeted destiny 2 stuff when break from activision was announced.

Reasons we don't know, but Ten cent is major backer of Epic. And major backer of Bungie is net ease, tencents competitor.
and they don't need money either.

 

[Marukoban]

Case like this is why you should be extremely careful when backing a game on crowdfunding.
Personally I wouldn't even back Suikoden sequel despite how much I love the series.
I just don't trust crowdfunding to actually deliver what they promise.
There are too many legal loopholes that makes it easy for crowdfunding to renege on whatever they promise.
Also just as an addition: Fuck EGS. I will never install that shit "launcher" on my PC.

 

[Border]

Why even bother with it when they've basically killed Shenmue IV dead by doing this?

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Shenmue 4 was always going to be an uphill battle to get made. In part because it won't have the same mystique as the underdog revival of a series that was long thought to be dead and gone......but also because enthusiasm will be largely based around the response to Shenmue 3, a game whose design philosophy is still rooted in the early 2000's. Regardless of the EGS situation, I don't think Shenmue 3 will review very well so they will be stuck with both fans and critics turned against them. Unless some big corporation offers to bankroll a fourth game, I can't imagine it happening. I think they could get Sony or Valve or Microsoft to step in and help, so long as Shenmue 4 is guaranteed to be the final chapter.

Would you still install if, just prior to release, the root-kitted, virus-ridden game which was sold to you as offline only, was suddenly changed to require an online connection?

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Probably not, no. You can prevent your personal information from being leaked by doing a fresh Windows install, but you can't guarantee that viruses or spyware wouldn't try to do something illegal that might be traced back to you.

 

[MrBob]

As a consumer your only real recourse is to stop buying Deep Silver published games. Low sales is the main way to get attention of a publisher no matter whatever money hat they received.

I'm still trying to figure out why epic would spend money for Shenmue 3 exclusivity. This is a game that mainly appeals to Shenmue 1 and 2 fans and really how big of a fan base is this? I think it's safe to say Shenmue 3 will not have blockbuster sales. Seems like money wasted for Epic. Deep Silver don't care because they got paid. Heck they are so comfortable with this deal their first response to customers wanting a refund is tough shit, so the situation is amazing. Will all these shenanigans by Deep Silver cost them long term (this seems to be a pattern with them)? I doubt it but if there is any karmic justice in the world Deep Silver will get hit by a truckload of it.

 

[Hektor]

I'm happy that this one seems to be blowing up a bit at least, compared to phoenix point where it went out with a whimper because of the vastly smaller amount of crowdfunders

 

[JimmyJacking]

I don't think people appreciate just how much of an existential threat the Epic store poses for anyone even remotely happy with the last decade of PC gaming.

It's like if some madman were to offer me Shenmue in exchange for Nintendo existing. I would refuse despite not even owning a Wii U or a Switch. Nintendo as a player is more important than any one game.

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Holy hyperbole Batman... existential threat? Come on now.

I know that people have been burnt and can assure you I am huge on customer protections and rights and they do deserve recourse if they are indeed upset with the 'no refund' or swapping platforms from what they asked for when they signed up.

But I think bandwagoning for the sake of it should be just as much frowned upon as much as dismissing it as nothing with "it's just another launcher" line.

 

[Cipherr]

As a consumer your only real recourse is to stop buying Deep Silver published games. Low sales is the main way to get attention of a publisher no matter whatever money hat they received.

I'm still trying to figure out why epic would spend money for Shenmue 3 exclusivity. This is a game that mainly appeals to Shenmue 1 and 2 fans and really how big of a fan base is this? I think it's safe to say Shenmue 3 will not have blockbuster sales. Seems like money wasted for Epic. Deep Silver don't care because they got paid. Heck they are so comfortable with this deal their first response to customers wanting a refund is tough shit, so the situation is amazing. Will all these shenanigans by Deep Silver cost them long term (this seems to be a pattern with them)? I doubt it but if there is any karmic justice in the world Deep Silver will get hit by a truckload of it.

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I think Shenmue got caught up in this as I believe Epic is just firing in as wide a range as possible. I truly think they just want as many people to know about their store as they can. So swing for the niches too. I get the feeling they are operating under a "Any press is good press" assumption too; thinking that its fine to piss on those gamers as they make them aware because in the end, its still better than them not being aware of your store at all.

Time will tell whether or not they are right or wrong on that. We will see I guess.

Holy hyperbole Batman... existential threat? Come on now.

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Hey, that's how he feels. And Im not far off. The 5 worst things to hit PC gaming for me in the last decade are the handling of Review Bombing, The lack of competition at the top of the GPU market (another subject), The risk of MS closing up gaming on windows to a store (This seems to have blown over and isn't at risk of happening if it ever was), The DRM wars (self explanatory) and this Epic Store mess.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

Holy hyperbole Batman... existential threat? Come on now.

I know that people have been burnt and can assure you I am huge on customer protections and rights and they do deserve recourse if they are indeed upset with the 'no refund' or swapping platforms from what they asked for when they signed up.

But I think bandwagoning for the sake of it should be just as much frowned upon as much as dismissing it as nothing with "it's just another launcher" line.

Click to shrink...

As an indie developer, a walled garden trying to eat an open garden's lunch IS an existential threat, and ive explained why in detail. Its nice that you only have to look at the egs as something of an inconvenience, but to me its a threat to my ability to operate and make a living. Calling this "bandwagoning" is insulting.

 

[JimmyJacking]

As an indie developer, a walled garden trying to eat an open garden's lunch IS an existential threat, and ive explained why in detail. Its nice that you only have to look at the egs as something of an inconvenience, but to me its a threat to my ability to operate and make a living. Calling this "bandwagoning" is insulting.

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Right. So this thread should be renamed the "Why I hate the EGS" rather than actually talking about the consumers that got burned and recourse they have.

Gotcha.

 

[olag]

....

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The success of Epics strategies in this case will largely effect how game pc game publishing works and what sort of startegies publishers will use to corner their share of the market.

The stunt they just pulled will certainly make people a lot more hesitant to crowd fund games in general which has a direct effect on developers who'd want to really on crowd funding.

 

[ListeningGarden]

Right. So this thread should be renamed the "Why I hate the EGS" rather than actually talking about the consumers that got burned and recourse they have.

Gotcha.

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Who do you think you're talking to in this thread?

 

[Cipherr]

Right. So this thread should be renamed the "Why I hate the EGS" rather than actually talking about the consumers that got burned and recourse they have.

Gotcha.

Click to shrink...

Wait what? Do.... do you think that maybe the consumers feelings about EGS may... just possibly... be influenced by the burns they are nursing from this nonsense and their distinct lack of recourse outside of taking their business elsewhere in the future?

Any chance those.... might be

related?

Maybe?

 

[Deleted member 48897]

there are no intellectually honest arguments to be made that are pro epic games store

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Whoa, whoa. I will say that in defense of the moneyhat there was, like, no reason to believe that without it we'd ever see stuff like Detroit: Become Human and Journey given that it had been the better part of a decade since their release and had no signs of ever making it to PC (doubly so since Sony were the ones publishing Detroit). About the same thing I thought when they put up Shadow Complex on it back in, what, 2015? If their approach was to take stuff seemingly locked to consoles and put it on PC then I think that would be a fine enough goal and at least better than when MS or Sony decide to straight-out buy up a company due to the inherent flexibility of the PC environment compared to literally any console, even now.

Like, Journey isn't EGS exclusive but coming to Steam a year from now. It's not on Steam, not even a coming soon page like this or Metro or Phoenix Point had.

And, yes, Detroit's a shit game but I'm in favor of reducing the number of console-exclusive titles out there.

Trying to be the sole proprietor of specific games that are already planned to arrive on Steam, MS Store, etc. though absolutely sucks, especially when the customers are taking on the financial risks, and I'm still not sure how great it's working out for Epic in the long run. (My guess is that the culture will come to accept it the way it accepted EA's Origin or the idea that games aren't purchased but rented by way of a subscription service despite both of those being non-starters several years ago.)

 

[Qikz]

Why is it whenever there's a thread about the EGS you get people coming in who are completely unrelated to the reasons why people are annoyed with it that try and defend it? I've even seen people defending it who don't even play PC games it's so weird.

 

[Border]

I'm still trying to figure out why epic would spend money for Shenmue 3 exclusivity. This is a game that mainly appeals to Shenmue 1 and 2 fans and really how big of a fan base is this?

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Aside from Borderlands 3 and Metro, this is probably one of their biggest and most notable exclusive acquisitions. Epic's strategy seems to revolve around acquiring dozens of "small" games rather than a handful of heavy hitters. No single game will bring in a bunch of new users, but if they can pull in 10K new users for every exclusive, the numbers start to add up once you consider that they will have a couple dozen exclusive games. Epic doesn't expect to see a huge Return On Investment for Shenmue 3 specifically, they're just betting that Shenmue plus a couple dozen other exclusives will ultimately pay off.

 

[olag]

....

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Their partial acquisition of the division(another heavy hitter) and outer world's seems to suggest that they aren't just looking for small titles to medium titles but large ones as well . Particularly, games with a large pc following.

Failing to acquire full exclusivity their secondary objective seems to be to prevent or delay a steam release.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

Right. So this thread should be renamed the "Why I hate the EGS" rather than actually talking about the consumers that got burned and recourse they have.

Gotcha.

Click to shrink...

How many times do I have to bring up on a page that I backed shenmue for $500

 

[Deleted member 3196]

I'm still trying to figure out why epic would spend money for Shenmue 3 exclusivity. This is a game that mainly appeals to Shenmue 1 and 2 fans and really how big of a fan base is this? I think it's safe to say Shenmue 3 will not have blockbuster sales.

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Epic don't care about sales of Shenmue III on their store. They didn't pay for the game, they paid for the backers to download and install their store (and maybe buy another game on the store while they're at it). So Ys Net basically sold us to Epic more than anything else, which is even more insulting when I think about it.

Shenmue 4 was always going to be an uphill battle to get made. In part because it won't have the same mystique as the underdog revival of a series that was long thought to be dead and gone......but also because enthusiasm will be largely based around the response to Shenmue 3, a game whose design philosophy is still rooted in the early 2000's. Regardless of the EGS situation, I don't think Shenmue 3 will review very well so they will be stuck with both fans and critics turned against them. Unless some big corporation offers to bankroll a fourth game, I can't imagine it happening. I think they could get Sony or Valve or Microsoft to step in and help, so long as Shenmue 4 is guaranteed to be the final chapter.

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They might've garnered enough goodwill for a new Kickstarter, and if the money was still coming in then a publisher may have noticed Shenmue IV.

But now the game is engulfed in a perfect storm of negativity. Reviewers have been sharpening their knives over this game for literally years - we all know it's going to have a bad Metascore. But it might've survived if the community came out to promote the series with the passion and positivity they've always had. Now they've also driven a ginormous wedge in that community between those who don't care about the deal and those who are angry or disappointed about it. Epic Game Store has proven that once again, regardless of the fanbase, all the talk around their exclusives becomes unremittingly negative. Not even the Shenmue community could withstand it.

In terms of sales, on console they're going up against giants in November and most of their front-loaded sales will be devoured by them, especially when people look up its reviews and see the poor scores, not to mention the negative talk around this game. On PC, they could've relied on the long sales tail and good word of mouth from backers, but they've pissed that up the wall too.

Crowdfunding Shenmue IV is now out of the question because of the schism in the fanbase that they themselves created - between angry fans washing their hands of the series and less invested onlookers seeing how Ys Net has done us dirty, how many people will even consider putting cash down for a sequel?

And no publisher is going to touch this game with a ten foot barge pole if reviews and sales are bad.

Shenmue IV went from an uphill battle - something fans and the community have rallied together to overcome before - to deadder than the dodo.

 

[Elfforkusu]

^^^ I mostly agree, and also think that's the biggest proof that YsNet didn't understand what they were stepping into. At first I was like "ah, maybe they needed the cash infusion", but tbh, unless they got enough money from Epic to fund 4, this was a mistake in every way.

Not sure if it's too late or not, but they really need to take action to try and salvage some trust (even a little bit, though they'll never get everyone back). Hopefully the volume of complaints is acting as a signal that maybe steam keys for backers is important

 

[Alexandros]

Exactly. Coming from the same place here. While I didn't spend $500, just $130 actually as I was really broke when the Kickstarter launched and I put every penny I could justifiably spare into it, I did spend more than I would on a game, and I ate noodles and tinned beans for 3-4 weeks just to support Shenmue III. It shows my dedication and love of the series, and how much I wanted that Kickstarter to succeed.

But EGS is just an ask too much for me. The lack of communication from Ys Net at times, their tone deaf attitude to things, signing up with Deep Silver despite my misgivings about them as a publisher, and the state of the game looking worse and worse with each showing. I managed to look past all of that, to my shame (especially the Deep Silver/THQN 8chan stuff). I just wanted Shenmue III that badly. But I can't do EGS.

Quite frankly, I hate EGS so much that I want Shenmue III to fail now. Why even bother with it when they've basically killed Shenmue IV dead by doing this?

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It's a real shame that this sort of faith and dedication to a developer isn't rewarded. The well is being poisoned for everyone while only a few benefit.

 

[Vault]

Why did Epic spend so money on a game that is gonna receive a huge backlash for them and sell like shit?

 

[eonden]

Whoa, whoa. I will say that in defense of the moneyhat there was, like, no reason to believe that without it we'd ever see stuff like Detroit: Become Human and Journey given that it had been the better part of a decade since their release and had no signs of ever making it to PC (doubly so since Sony were the ones publishing Detroit). About the same thing I thought when they put up Shadow Complex on it back in, what, 2015? If their approach was to take stuff seemingly locked to consoles and put it on PC then I think that would be a fine enough goal and at least better than when MS or Sony decide to straight-out buy up a company due to the inherent flexibility of the PC environment compared to literally any console, even now.

Like, Journey isn't EGS exclusive but coming to Steam a year from now. It's not on Steam, not even a coming soon page like this or Metro or Phoenix Point had.

And, yes, Detroit's a shit game but I'm in favor of reducing the number of console-exclusive titles out there.

Trying to be the sole proprietor of specific games that are already planned to arrive on Steam, MS Store, etc. though absolutely sucks, especially when the customers are taking on the financial risks, and I'm still not sure how great it's working out for Epic in the long run. (My guess is that the culture will come to accept it the way it accepted EA's Origin or the idea that games aren't purchased but rented by way of a subscription service despite both of those being non-starters several years ago.)

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All the Sony exclusive games were coming to PC even before the EGS money hat. Flower was launched and announced at the same time as Journey! The Cage games have forks for the fucking Steam Controller (and they have been rumored to been working on it for 2 years now!).

The PR guy being EGS also said they had nothing to do with the deals allowing both of them to come to PC!!!

 

[CthulhuSars]

Why did Epic spend so money on a game that is gonna receive a huge backlash for them and sell like shit?

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A lot of people backed Shenmue 3. I would imagine there are a lot of die hard PC gamers that asked for the PC version and so Epic saw this as a way to get those people forced into using their storefront.

 

[Arkanius]

Reminder of the day:

Post your complaint here if you are part of the EU

https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/odr/main/index.cfm?complaintType=1&event=main.complaints.new

I did it against Kickstarter since they are the ones that processed the payment.
This will escalate back to ys.net

EU London address

KICKSTARTER LONDON LIMITED
5 New Street Square
London, EC4A 3TW

 

[Deleted member 8861]

Damn, I hope everyone here was this mad about Mighty No. 9 skipping Vita and 3DS, or Yooka-Laylee or Bloodstained skipping Wii U (and in Bloodstained's case, Vita as well)...

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Much as I can relate to your point, those walk-backs affect far fewer people than a PC/PS4 game going "you know what no Steam key for you"

 

[Hucast]

Jus

Reminder of the day:

Post your complaint here if you are part of the EU

https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/odr/main/index.cfm?complaintType=1&event=main.complaints.new

I did it against Kickstarter since they are the ones that processed the payment.
This will escalate back to ys.net

EU London address

KICKSTARTER LONDON LIMITED
5 New Street Square
London, EC4A 3TW

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The trader being deepsilver right?

Edit: think i'll go with deep silver since control is with them

 

[Arkanius]

Jus
The trader being deepsilver right?

Edit: think i'll go with deep silver since control is with them

Click to shrink...

The trader in this case is Kickstarter.
Ys.net if you did the slacker backer campaign

 

[Tzarscream]

As an indie developer, a walled garden trying to eat an open garden's lunch IS an existential threat, and ive explained why in detail. Its nice that you only have to look at the egs as something of an inconvenience, but to me its a threat to my ability to operate and make a living. Calling this "bandwagoning" is insulting.

Click to shrink...

Isn't Steam flooding their storefront with unabashed trash, completely flushing away any chance that a legitimate good indie game can be noticed without significant marketing? My point being is that Steam also damages the industry, in some ways in a worse way than the EGS.


I also have a question to people in this thread, do you think you'd be just as angry if Ys decided to forego the Steam Store and sell this game off their own website as a DRM free direct download?

 

[JimmyJacking]

Wait what? Do.... do you think that maybe the consumers feelings about EGS may... just possibly... be influenced by the burns they are nursing from this nonsense and their distinct lack of recourse outside of taking their business elsewhere in the future?

Any chance those.... might be

related?

Maybe?

Click to shrink...

Ok, perhaps I'm looking at this through the wrong prisim, and happy to admit that.

But from what I see events can only assumed to have gone something like;
- People who threw into the KS were promised(?) a Steam Key
- Game gets a publisher years later
- Epic offers publisher a hat full of money for exclusivity (?)
- Publisher agrees
(These could be reversed for all we know pub went to Epic)
- Publisher tells customers from the KS "sorry, we said Steam... but now it's EGS oh and to kick you in the nuts, no refunds - which incidentally is outrageous and has been my stance since)
- The Publisher literally sold you off to get you into Epics store.
- Customers outraged, and rightly so.

I'm trying to see the link between people venting on the store itself, rather than going after the Publisher? I've been telling people to write into their consumer bodies to complain about the behavior of the publisher? Should have told them to complain about Epic to our ACCC instead?

How many times do I have to bring up on a page that I backed shenmue for $500

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I get that, I have seen your posts on the failings of the EGS platform. I was absolutely furious when I went through a something "kinda" similar with that now. I felt robbed.

I deeply want nothing more than to see you made whole with a refund or at the very least what you were promised with a steam key.

I respect people's reasons on why they may venomously hate the EGS or why some are more nonchalant towards it..

But what exactly is the dog pile on the launcher itself going to do in this situation? Would it not be best to keep the focus on the publisher to change or reneg or change the deal they agreed to in the first place. I'm just seeing the outrage a little misplaced.


**Just a friendly reminder to Australians I made 20pgs back.. You must submit a complaint in the first place if you want any action (no idea if they will investigate) but you need to do it.

Not sure if you serious or just being a little facetious with a bit of tongue and cheek, but if you or any Australian wants any action or even them to look, you will need to submit a complaint to them first.

...and there seems to be an awful lot of "no refunds" in correspondences going around.


Ironically, you can find a good template on the ACCC site, granted it's geared for the ACCC, but shouldn't be much to modify to suit your region.

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/complaints-problems/write-a-complaint-letter/complaint-letter-tool

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[Deleted member 12790]

Isn't Steam flooding their storefront with unabashed trash, completely flushing away any chance that a legitimate good indie game can be noticed without significant marketing?

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No, this is scare mongering from people like Jim Sterling. I have friends, for example, who launched their very first game ever within the last year on steam, who are doing just fine. Steam is not flooded with garbage, nor is it hard to find quality stuff on steam.

What you are complaining about, is the very strength of the platform. Having open easy access to the marketplace is a good thing. Don't let Youtubers who garner their entire userbase from fear mongering tell you what the market is like for devs, I'm a dev right here telling you that an open market is way, way more beneficial than any sort of closed market like you're calling for.

 

[Uzzy]

Isn't Steam flooding their storefront with unabashed trash, completely flushing away any chance that a legitimate good indie game can be noticed without significant marketing? My point being is that Steam also damages the industry, in some ways in a worse way than the EGS.


I also have a question to people in this thread, do you think you'd be just as angry if Ys decided to forego the Steam Store and sell this game off their own website as a DRM free direct download?

Click to shrink...

So you want Tim Sweeney and or Gabe Newell to decide what games are allowed to get noticed by customers? Cause that's what curation is. Fuck curation. I don't want Tim, Gabe, Jim Sterling, you, me or anyone deciding what games are allowed to get customer notice. It by definition perverts the market and prevents niche voices from getting attention. Fuck curation. Curation is literally the devil and must be destroyed.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

So you want Tim Sweeney and or Gabe Newell to decide what games are allowed to get noticed by customers? Cause that's what curation is. Fuck curation. I don't want Tim, Gabe, Jim Sterling, you, me or anyone deciding what games are allowed to get customer notice. It by definition perverts the market and prevents niche voices from getting attention. Fuck curation. Curation is literally the devil and must be destroyed.

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Example of awful curation hurting devs in another gaming related market: Oculus Quest's curated store is deeply hurting VR developers

Curation is not a good thing. Ironically, you can only hear people like Jim Sterling blather on about the evils of an uncurated store, because there exists uncurated outlets like Youtube which allow him a platform. Because his "show" would never, ever in a billion years be allowed on curated platforms like conventional television. The hypocrite.

 

[Deleted member 1849]

Isn't Steam flooding their storefront with unabashed trash, completely flushing away any chance that a legitimate good indie game can be noticed without significant marketing? My point being is that Steam also damages the industry, in some ways in a worse way than the EGS.


I also have a question to people in this thread, do you think you'd be just as angry if Ys decided to forego the Steam Store and sell this game off their own website as a DRM free direct download?

Click to shrink...

I just want to remind people: A few years ago, before Steam "opened the floodgates", they had a very similar curation approach to Epic.

The approach was so fucking awful that it held back the rise of indie gaming. At that time, getting onto Steam was a life or death situation for developers.

Epic's current strategy is as bad as that. Steam's approach to curation is nothing by comparison even if for some reason you believe the scaremongering by people like Jim.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

Companies like Epic Games exists to begin with because of the open nature of the PC market. Epic Mega Games was once thought of as a small guy, someone who couldn't get a developer's license to work on Nintendo and Sega consoles. They began by making MS Dos games that weren't sold in conventional stores, because conventional stores wouldn't stock their games. It's only because a completely open, uncurated market was allowed to exist, that they exist. Curation is deeply antithetical to the PC gaming landscape. Open access to consumers has always, since the early 80's, been a corner stone of the platform. One of my heroes, Lord British, began his gaming empire by mailing disks out in zip lock baggies from down the street where I grew up.

Locking down the Epic Game Store to just a select few special entities is hypocritical.

 

[elyetis]

No, that's not true. They allow you to generate keys and sell them anywhere without using the Steam store.

You can 100% use all of Steam's features for free without selling your game on their store.

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That's pretty strange, it feels like it kind of goes against those two point from the link you shared :

Steam Key Rules and Guidelines

• You should use keys to sell your game on other stores in a similar way to how you sell your game on Steam. It is important that you don't give Steam customers a worse deal.
  
• It's OK to run a discount on different stores at different times as long as you plan to give a comparable offer to Steam customers within a reasonable amount of time.

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But maybe they are only about preventing people from using the store for visibility while making the store "look bad" in comparison to other store selling the same game.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

To remind people --- there are users ON THIS VERY BOARD with games with 1088 reviews on Steam, 93% are rated "very positively," who were denied the ability to sell their games on the EGS and given absolutely no reason why from epic, who were told by other users "well it's OK because there's steam to fall back on." EGS gets away with shady shit like locking out quality small developers, because everyone knows there's a safety net in Steam. That alone should tell you that Steam's open curation policy is a good thing, not a bad thing, and that curation is just as much a problem today as ever.

 

[Tzarscream]

No, this is scare mongering from people like Jim Sterling. I have friends, for example, who launched their very first game ever within the last year on steam, who are doing just fine. Steam is not flooded with garbage, nor is it hard to find quality stuff on steam.

What you are complaining about, is the very strength of the platform. Having open easy access to the marketplace is a good thing. Don't let Youtubers who garner their entire userbase from fear mongering tell you what the market is like for devs, I'm a dev right here telling you that an open market is way, way more beneficial than any sort of closed market like you're calling for.

Click to shrink...

Well first of all I could argue a lot of your posts in here are scare mongering.

Secondly why should I not trust the word of Jim Sterling? I've been following his work for 10 years because I value his viewpoint (and believe him to be usually correct). Additionally it's not just Jim saying this, Waypoint said this a couple of days ago, Giant Bomb have said the same thing.

Thirdly, from my own viewpoint I think it is objectively true that Steam's laissez faire approach to curation has absolute decimated the store in terms of being able to find new quality products.

This is why I don't have an issue with the EGS, any storefront you can shake a stick at (except maybe Itch.io) have pretty substantial issues with them. Am I going to hate EGS because they are buying chunks out of the stiffest competition (who have become complacent)? Valve is too big to compete with fairly and I think it'd be two faced to prefer one problematic gamestore over another out of convenience.

So you want Tim Sweeney and or Gabe Newell to decide what games are allowed to get noticed by customers? Cause that's what curation is. Fuck curation. I don't want Tim, Gabe, Jim Sterling, you, me or anyone deciding what games are allowed to get customer notice. It by definition perverts the market and prevents niche voices from getting attention. Fuck curation. Curation is literally the devil and must be destroyed.

Click to shrink...

We don't like curation now? I subscribe to Tidal and I love their curated playlists and exploration mixes because it's hard to wade through all the music to find something I'd like. If Spotify/Tidal had no curation and I had to discover music listening to the "New" queue I'd be spending hours listening to fake kids bop, fortnite rap and minecraft songs.

Ultimately I think it's a shame here with Shenmue that a lot of you are seemingly cutting your nose off to spite your face. You backed the game and now you're not going to play the game you backed? I do genuinely understand the disappointment and I get being a bit pissed off about this but at the very least don't let it stop you enjoying the game you've been waiting such a long time for.

 

[Hucast]

Reminder of the day:

Post your complaint here if you are part of the EU

https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/odr/main/index.cfm?complaintType=1&event=main.complaints.new

I did it against Kickstarter since they are the ones that processed the payment.
This will escalate back to ys.net

EU London address

KICKSTARTER LONDON LIMITED
5 New Street Square
London, EC4A 3TW

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Thanks btw for sharing. I just posted mine with deep silver's contact adress. I guess its good in any case

The trader in this case is Kickstarter.
Ys.net if you did the slacker backer campaign

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I feel like deep silver took over the right/luggage of this whole kickstarter (also mentioned in the claim) so I went with them

 

[Deleted member 12790]

Well first of all I could argue a lot of your posts in here are scare mongering.

Secondly why should I not trust the word of Jim Sterling?

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The difference between Jim Sterling and I? I am speaking about an industry which I am trying to directly compete in, Jim Sterling is not. Jim Sterling makes his money from stirring up controversy, where I am looking to make my money by actually competing in the market that Jim Sterling is rallying to affect. One of us has way more skin in this conversation than the other.

 

[Arthands]

Isn't Steam flooding their storefront with unabashed trash, completely flushing away any chance that a legitimate good indie game can be noticed without significant marketing? My point being is that Steam also damages the industry, in some ways in a worse way than the EGS.


I also have a question to people in this thread, do you think you'd be just as angry if Ys decided to forego the Steam Store and sell this game off their own website as a DRM free direct download?

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It only appear so if you keep buying trash like Jim Sterling. If you've been buying good games, Steam's algorithm will only recommend other good indie games to you. Of course there are other various factors around such as Steam user reviews. Steam is likely going to push a good games with good reviews over a good games with no reviews (because well, how will Steam know the game is good if there's no good review from anyone?)

 

[Tzarscream]

The difference between Jim Sterling and I? I am speaking about an industry which I am trying to directly compete in, Jim Sterling is not. Jim Sterling makes his money from stirring up controversy, where I am looking to make my money by actually competing in the market that Jim Sterling is rallying to affect. One of us has way more skin in this conversation than the other.

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Well he's been working in the industry for over ten years, but I'll not keep arguing.

 

[Deleted member 8861]

my worry about no curation is that it allows fucked up shit to fester and I mean if we're calling YouTube a non-curated platform, are we just going to say the rise of alt-right youtube is a fair price to pay?

But what exactly is the dog pile on the launcher itself going to do in this situation? Would it not be best to keep the focus on the publisher to change or reneg or change the deal they agreed to in the first place. I'm just seeing the outrage a little misplaced.

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The reason is because EGS giving publishers money to force games already announced, marketed and sold as Steam games to (at least for a significant margin of time) be removed from there to be put on EGS is not an isolated incident. From somewhat less egregious examples like Control to outright BS examples like Metro Exodus (where the game was temporarily open for preorders on Steam itself before getting moneyhatted by EGS), EGS has been trying to force people to use EGS through depriving customers of other options for months.

People are angry at the S3 devs for walking back on their word, rightly so, but they're also angry at EGS because they're precisely the people who set a precedent for this stuff and even turned it into a practice, really.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

Well he's been working in the industry for over ten years, but I'll not keep arguing.

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jim sterling has never published a single game, no he hasn't. What games has Jim Sterling worked on? I'll wait.

Ultimately I think it's a shame here with Shenmue that a lot of you are seemingly cutting your nose off to spite your face. You backed the game and now you're not going to play the game you backed? I do genuinely understand the disappointment and I get being a bit pissed off about this but at the very least don't let it stop you enjoying the game you've been waiting such a long time for.

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You're asking me to support something, which is intended to sieve potential customers away from the only marketplace I am allowed to compete in, and tell me that by not doing this I am cutting my nose to spite my face? LOL

All this, of course, ignores the ultimate elephant in the room: STEAM HAS CURATION. Lots of it.

Go on, show me your steam front page. Show me all the garbage shovelware you're being buried under. I'll wait.

 

[Hektor]

We don't like curation now? I subscribe to Tidal and I love their curated playlists and exploration mixes because it's hard to wade through all the music to find something I'd like. If Spotify/Tidal had no curation and I had to discover music listening to the "New" queue I'd be spending hours listening to fake kids bop, fortnite rap and minecraft songs.

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Steam has those "Exploration mixes" as well, it's called the discovery qeue and the community curators.

 

[Tzarscream]

Its easy to tell you don't use Steam store at all.

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This is a troll post but regardless:

13 years using steam.

 

[Igniz12]

my worry about no curation is that it allows fucked up shit to fester and I mean if we're calling YouTube a non-curated platform, are we just going to say the rise of alt-right youtube is a fair price to pay?


The reason is because EGS giving publishers money to force games already announced, marketed and sold as Steam games to (at least for a significant margin of time) be removed from there to be put on EGS is not an isolated incident. From somewhat less egregious examples like Control to outright BS examples like Metro Exodus (where the game was temporarily open for preorders on Steam itself before getting moneyhatted by EGS), EGS has been trying to force people to use EGS through depriving customers of other options for months.

People are angry at the S3 devs for walking back on their word, rightly so, but they're also angry at EGS because they're precisely the people who set a precedent for this stuff and even turned it into a practice, really.

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Curation? No. Moderation? Yes. Valve need to stop being so hands off with that kind of stuff and be more mindful of what they let in. They were making some good noises recently and then the Rape day shit happened and we're back to square one with all that again.

 

[eonden]

Well first of all I could argue a lot of your posts in here are scare mongering.

Secondly why should I not trust the word of Jim Sterling? I've been following his work for 10 years because I value his viewpoint (and believe him to be usually correct). Additionally it's not just Jim saying this, Waypoint said this a couple of days ago, Giant Bomb have said the same thing.

Thirdly, from my own viewpoint I think it is objectively true that Steam's laissez faire approach to curation has absolute decimated the store in terms of being able to find new quality products.

This is why I don't have an issue with the EGS, any storefront you can shake a stick at (except maybe Itch.io) have pretty substantial issues with them. Am I going to hate EGS because they are buying chunks out of the stiffest competition (who have become complacent)? Valve is too big to compete with fairly and I think it'd be two faced to prefer one problematic gamestore over another out of convenience.

We don't like curation now? I subscribe to Tidal and I love their curated playlists and exploration mixes because it's hard to wade through all the music to find something I'd like. If Spotify/Tidal had no curation and I had to discover music listening to the "New" queue I'd be spending hours listening to fake kids bop, fortnite rap and minecraft songs.

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Steam offers a curated experience though, through the curators, discovery queues, and recommendation algorithms. Similarly to Spotify! Spotify really has not that much curation (and right now it is starting to get even less curated) and it is quite easy to get in there (from a music point of view).

Similarly to Spotify, you are not supposed to go on the "New on the service" as that would give you a full list of music / songs you will not be interested in, you are suposed to use their discovery tools to find the music / games they like.

If your starting page is starting to show a ton of trash games, there are two possibilities:

• The games arent really trash and you just dont like the genre / asthetics (which is probablly the most likely thing as more than 75% of the games in steam have Mixed or Positive reviews).
• Your friends, your purchase history, or your wishlist is filled with those kind of games.

 

[Arthands]

This is a troll post but regardless:

13 years using steam.

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sorry for that, I just amended my post immediately after but unfortunately you already quoted me. Can you take a screenshot of your main Steam page?

 

[Deleted member 1849]

Well he's been working in the industry for over ten years, but I'll not keep arguing.

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Being a YouTuber and a journalist is not the same as literally being an indie dev trying to sell games.

It's not even like Krejlooc is the only dev to say these things either. What he is saying is similar to what the Assault Android Cactus dev has said in the past, and my post pulls from personal experience from around that time (I have nothing to do with gamedev now).