Shawn Layden blames publishers and developers for lack of PlayStation crossplay (Up: Wargroove dev Chucklefish responds in thread - "We were told no")

[Deleted member 2145]

We're going around in circles, but by my understanding of why they don't want to - network effects - it's not something you can partially be in or out of IMO. That's where I think we're disagreeing. IMO you're either enjoying the benefits of an exclusive network and Metcalf's Law in that context, or you're not. Flipping it for only certain games isn't stopping the 'damage' on that front, if that's the underlying motivation around what they want to protect. That's where my question over the rationality of it is, I don't really see it as something you can limit if you're blowing open holes in the network wall with your biggest games. Maybe there's some other reason they don't want to, but I haven't seen it offered (again, aside from Armaros' suggestion of standards and expectations).

Anyway, I think at this stage it's on Sony to get onto one page that's coherent between users and publishers, whatever that page is. It just looks shoddy in the meantime.

Layden is going to be on stage at DICE in a couple of hours, so maybe someone can shout something up at him there D:

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we're going in circles because you're trying to think of reasons why Sony would be flip on crossplay for Fortnite while still being against it for every other game. except you're ignoring the actual painfully obvious reason that I've stated multiple times yet you still don't seem to comprehend, hence the circles.

I'll try again

Sony is against crossplay
Sony was actively blocking crossplay in Fortnite
when that whole thing blew up at E3 they actually tried to stay being against it, think of the children, etc.
it became clear that their stance was negatively affecting their business
because of that they made a beta program for crossplay games allowing them to enable it for Fortnite, because blocking it for Fortnite was negatively affecting their business, while still blocking it for everything else
because Sony is against crossplay

 

[Kage Maru]

Hi all,

CEO Of Chucklefish here, we just launched Wargroove with crossplay between PC, Switch and Xbox so I wanted to chime in.

We made many requests for crossplay (both through our account manager and directly with higher ups) all the way up until release month. We were told in no uncertain terms that it was not going to happen.

From our side, we can *literally* toggle a switch and have it working. Of course policy work might be more complicated for Sony.

Just wanted to provide some balance on the issue and say that it certainly isn't a question of developers having not contacted their account managers or having dropped the ball. We were told no.

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Congrats on the game release. Outside of Wargroove looking fantastic, crossplay support was one of the reasons I bought the game.

I do get that, I just don't get what it buys Sony to care about the small fish while allowing huge holes in Metcalf's Law to be blown open elsewhere by the largest game communities.

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The big fish are only one part of the equation. The other smaller fish may not be important to them individually but it's easy to see how they would view a completely open policy as a threat to their market position. It's one thing to say you no longer need a PS4 to play Fortnite and Rocket league with your friends but another thing to say you don't need a PS4 to play any crossplay MP title.

Pretty clear there's a complete lack of communication among Sony on this. Layden is in charge of Sony's studios and it seems like the actual third party relations team is not being accommodating. I hope they sort this out ASAP. I imagine they're keeping it murky so they can block Xbox Live logins for Minecraft but everyone else should be good to go

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I highly doubt it has anything to do with a lack of communication. The moment a topic goes public and is negative on a company, there are almost always memos and internal discussions on how the issue will be approached in a public setting. Shawn and all the other higher ups know what's going on.

 

[HardRojo]

It's also interesting that Sony are fine and more than able to cross-play with PC, Android and iOS but not their direct competitors.

This has always been a business decision and the only reason Fortnite got cross-play was because the complaints got through to mainstream media and news outlets.

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Hi all,

CEO Of Chucklefish here, we just launched Wargroove with crossplay between PC, Switch and Xbox so I wanted to chime in.

We made many requests for crossplay (both through our account manager and directly with higher ups) all the way up until release month. We were told in no uncertain terms that it was not going to happen.

From our side, we can *literally* toggle a switch and have it working. Of course policy work might be more complicated for Sony.

Just wanted to provide some balance on the issue and say that it certainly isn't a question of developers having not contacted their account managers or having dropped the ball. We were told no.

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Figured as much. Good to have insight from people actually involved in the process, this is really a shame and hopefully improves in the future.

 

[Deleted member 249]

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I mean who is Austin Walker?
TheZodiacAge or anyone probably never heard of them and neither did most gamers so it doesn't matter if they don't care for these takes.

They don't give a fart about these small personalities

 

[GamerForever]

«I don't believe right now there is any gating factor on that. I think they're open to make proposals, because the Fortnite thing worked pretty well.» Sean doesnt really know whats what with crossplay...

 

[Carolina Reaper]

Someone just said "Who is Chucklefish. Sony dont know them and neither do gamers". I need some air. Too much stupid.

 

[Violet]

I know for a fact that of another third party company not named in this thread has enabled crossplay on all of their online games and is just waiting for Sony to let them go ahead with it.

The fact is, they are very very protective of their online infrastructure and it's caused issues with dozens of titles, and not just in the realm of online multiplayer. I understand why they are the way they are, but they don't need to lie about it.

 

[takriel]

They probably flip it only for Big Names right now like with Fortnite.
They don't need to listen to the small guys because they can't have any impact on the juggernaut they are in the industry.
Playstation holds the majority of players so most people won't be affected anyway with smaller titles.

I mean who is Chucklefish?
Shawn Layden or anyone probably never heard of them and neither did most gamers so it doesn't matter if they don't support it for these games.

Fortnite is something different because its a well known Name and the millions of kids on each platform could have turned against them.




They don't give a fart about these small indie studios.

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Wow this reads like nasty fanboyism

 

[Pooh]

Hope people remember this next time Layden starts to trot out some other bullshit line.

 

[Smokey]

So he lied. Thread is full of shock and awe that the beloved Sony would ever do such a thing with thing. #4ThePlayers after all.

 

[cw_sasuke]

Lol was he thinking what was going to happen. The devs are very vocal about it and then he straight up lies. You think those vocal devs wont call you out?

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Probably expected them to cape for Sony like big publishers ala SE did for years concerning games like FF XIV.

It's been obvious since Day 1 of this Gen that Song isn't interested in sharing their install base with other consoles - people that have been pressed about it always came up with some BS reasons blaming every party when while securing their good relations with Sony.

Well these indie titles sell more than enough on PC, Xbox and Switch....so they don't have to suck up to Sony as much as AAA publishers.

 

[Instro]

Why would you lie about this when it's so easy to fact check LOL. What a dummy.

 

[GhostTrick]

They probably flip it only for Big Names right now like with Fortnite.
They don't need to listen to the small guys because they can't have any impact on the juggernaut they are in the industry.
Playstation holds the majority of players so most people won't be affected anyway with smaller titles.

I mean who is Chucklefish?
Shawn Layden or anyone probably never heard of them and neither did most gamers so it doesn't matter if they don't support it for these games.

Fortnite is something different because its a well known Name and the millions of kids on each platform could have turned against them.




They don't give a fart about these small indie studios.

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Who's Chucklefish ?
Ever heard of the last game they published ?
Tiny unknown Stardew Valley.

 

[Wolf]

Sony throwing devs under the bus like this is sure to earn them lots of good will!

Shawn. What. Are. You. Doing.

 

[Deleted member 249]

Who's Chucklefish ?
Ever heard of the last game they published ?
Tiny unknown Stardew Valley.

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Don't forget about Wargroove!

 

[Deleted member 41104]

They probably flip it only for Big Names right now like with Fortnite.
They don't need to listen to the small guys because they can't have any impact on the juggernaut they are in the industry.
Playstation holds the majority of players so most people won't be affected anyway with smaller titles.

I mean who is Chucklefish?
Shawn Layden or anyone probably never heard of them and neither did most gamers so it doesn't matter if they don't support it for these games.

Fortnite is something different because its a well known Name and the millions of kids on each platform could have turned against them.




They don't give a fart about these small indie studios.

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This will become a new ERA meme, doesn't it !?

 

[Coolade]

They supported PC/PS4 cross-play from day one and let you spend money on purchases on PC and then use on PS4. So I don't believe this.

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Yeah I played pc/ps4 all the time. Why they don't view PC as competition is interesting. Sadly it seems we will never get a straight answer from Sony.

 

[Deleted member 21411]

They supported PC/PS4 cross-play from day one and let you spend money on purchases on PC and then use on PS4. So I don't believe this.

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Final fantasy 14 has a sub and a cash shop and I don't see how Sony would even be taking a cut. So I agree I doubt that's the reason

 

[Nooblet]

Plenty of devs have said that crossplay with Sony and Xbox is literally a matter of "toggling a switch".

Plus Sony was the one who made that "think of the children" comment. So that makes it clear it's on Sony.

 

[Deleted member 10847]

This will become a new ERA meme, doesn't it !?

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100%, believe me, im an expert on Message Boards Culture.

 

[TheRaidenPT]

Congrats on the game release. Outside of Wargroove looking fantastic, crossplay support was one of the reasons I bought the game.



The big fish are only one part of the equation. The other smaller fish may not be important to them individually but it's easy to see how they would view a completely open policy as a threat to their market position. It's one thing to say you no longer need a PS4 to play Fortnite and Rocket league with your friends but another thing to say you don't need a PS4 to play any crossplay MP title.



I highly doubt it has anything to do with a lack of communication. The moment a topic goes public and is negative on a company, there are almost always memos and internal discussions on how the issue will be approached in a public setting. Shawn and all the other higher ups know what's going on.

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They don't wanna let Cross Play happen because they are in the lead and have a huge pool of players.

But Cross Play benefits the consumer not Sony

 

[ShaggsMagoo]

Why is hubris such a damn problem in this industry? Every time that someone takes a lead they try to use that as capitol to fuck over consumers rather than cultivate the fan base and keep their momentum going.

 

[GhostTrick]

Don't forget about Wargroove!

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Wargroove is amazing. But yeah I wanted to highlight their last big success. Millions of units moved.

 

[RedHeat]

They probably flip it only for Big Names right now like with Fortnite.
They don't need to listen to the small guys because they can't have any impact on the juggernaut they are in the industry.
Playstation holds the majority of players so most people won't be affected anyway with smaller titles.

I mean who is Chucklefish?
Shawn Layden or anyone probably never heard of them and neither did most gamers so it doesn't matter if they don't support it for these games.

Fortnite is something different because its a well known Name and the millions of kids on each platform could have turned against them.




They don't give a fart about these small indie studios.

Click to shrink...

I applaud your bravery.

 

[Jerm411]

They probably flip it only for Big Names right now like with Fortnite.
They don't need to listen to the small guys because they can't have any impact on the juggernaut they are in the industry.
Playstation holds the majority of players so most people won't be affected anyway with smaller titles.

I mean who is Chucklefish?
Shawn Layden or anyone probably never heard of them and neither did most gamers so it doesn't matter if they don't support it for these games.

Fortnite is something different because its a well known Name and the millions of kids on each platform could have turned against them.




They don't give a fart about these small indie studios.

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Fuck outta here with this nonsense...JFC.

Chucklefish are amazing...out here acting like they're nobodies. Ugh.

 

[Deleted member 10629]

There goes arrogant Sony again, putting new restrictions on Japanese devs and pissing off Western devs with these crossplays shenanigans. What a way to kill all the goodwill generated with the PS4.

The saddest part is that people still take their side ('what do Sony stands to win with this? They're leading the competition', 'who are these indie devs and who cares about them anyway')

smh

 

[Umbrella Carp]

Why is hubris such a damn problem in this industry? Every time that someone takes a lead they try to use that as capitol to fuck over consumers rather than cultivate the fan base and keep their momentum going.

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They always convince themselves the lead will be permanent no matter what they say or do, and then are inevitably proven wrong.

 

[Gestault]

But Cross Play benefits the consumer not Sony

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Cross play directly benefits PS4 users, PS4 devs, and any publishers working on the PS4.

 

[BernardoOne]

Not shocked at all. Anyone who thought all these Devs didn't ask Sony already is a complete dumbass.

 

[RdN]

Sony is lying and spreading bullshit again? What a huge surprise! /s

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Pretty much this.

Sony has, time and again, lied and bent the truth, as the worst part is that many, many people choose to turn it's head, pretend like they don't do it.

Nothing new is going on here. It's a shitty mega corporation, trying everything it can to protect it's only goal: make money, and using lies so that fanboys don't see their true colours.

 

[WhovianGamer]

For real. What a bunch of bullshit from Layden. Pretty shameful shit.

"Work with your PlayStation manager."

How about just allow crossplay on your platform, asshole.

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It's not as simple as just magically allowing it. Things need to be checked and follow a certain protocol. At the moment it is done on a game by game basis based on a request from a developer.

I'm assuming next gen it will be standard on PS5 PSN.

 

[roguesquirrel]

i see the playbook has shifted from "This is so unprofessional they need to ask Sony directly" to "Well who the fuck are they anyway. Ive never heard of them" the second it turned out Sonys been telling people No

 

[SuperFakerBros]

Cross play directly benefits PS4 users, PS4 devs, and any publishers working on the PS4.

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C'mon, man, how can it benefit us PS4 owners? We have the most players. It's just Nintendrones and Xbots wanting a piece of the Sony pie /s

Wargroove is amazing. But yeah I wanted to highlight their last big success. Millions of units moved.

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This is off topic but I have to say that I had to do a double take when I realized you weren't Ban Puncher

 

[Deleted member 249]

Pretty much this.

Sony has, time and again, lied and bent the truth, as the worst part is that many, many people choose to turn it's head, pretend like they don't do it.

Nothing new is going on here. It's a shitty mega corporation, trying everything it can to protect it's only goal: make money, and using lies so that fanboys don't see their true colours.

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And yet people are still here stanning for Sony as though Sony is personally their friend

It's not as simple as just magically allowing it. Things need to be checked and follow a certain protocol. At the moment it is done on a game by game basis based on a request from a developer.

I'm assuming next gen it will be standard on PS5 PSN.

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It's literally been confirmed in this thread that even developers who are asking Sony to enable cross-play are being turned down.

 

[Deleted member 45414]

They probably flip it only for Big Names right now like with Fortnite.
They don't need to listen to the small guys because they can't have any impact on the juggernaut they are in the industry.
Playstation holds the majority of players so most people won't be affected anyway with smaller titles.

I mean who is Chucklefish?
Shawn Layden or anyone probably never heard of them and neither did most gamers so it doesn't matter if they don't support it for these games.

Fortnite is something different because its a well known Name and the millions of kids on each platform could have turned against them.




They don't give a fart about these small indie studios.

Click to shrink...

Crossplay would be a massive benefit to players, especially in regards to smaller indie titles where the player bases are often small and split across devices.

 

[YamchasRevenge]

I hope they change their tune by PS5 launch. I can understand (not saying I agree) why business people at Sony shrug this off considering PS4 is one of the most successful consoles ever. Just hope they remember how shit PS3 launch despite the behemoth that was the PS2.

 

[Master Chuuster]

mean who is Chucklefish?
Shawn Layden or anyone probably never heard of them and neither did most gamers so it doesn't matter if they don't support it for these games.

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I'm going to assume the head of PlayStation isn't nearly as ignorant as you are.

 

[RdN]

Cross play directly benefits PS4 users, PS4 devs, and any publishers working on the PS4.

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Sony doesn't care about that. They care about money.

Small indie dev wants to do cross play? Who cares! They aren't going to sell that much.

Now, when a juggernaut pushes them, like Fortnite and Rocket League did, they bend over. Why? Fear of losing money.

 

[gofreak]

we're going in circles because you're trying to think of reasons why Sony would be flip on crossplay for Fortnite while still being against it for every other game. except you're ignoring the actual painfully obvious reason that I've stated multiple times yet you still don't seem to comprehend, hence the circles.

I'll try again

Sony is against crossplay
Sony was actively blocking crossplay in Fortnite
when that whole thing blew up at E3 they actually tried to stay being against it, think of the children, etc.
it became clear that their stance was negatively affecting their business
because of that they made a beta program for crossplay games allowing them to enable it for Fortnite, because blocking it for Fortnite was negatively affecting their business, while still blocking it for everything else
because Sony is against crossplay

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I think we're talking past each other. I'm trying to rationalise why, and I think that's totally reasonable to ask why, or why it makes sense if the intention was to protect the benefits of a closed network, because I think those benefits are more or less gone if the big games allow it. I'm not arguing about the rationale or the PR benefit of allowing it in their biggest games - that's obvious.

To come at it another way - it's quite possible Sony still thinks it has something to protect, which I guess is where you're coming from, and so it's rational for them take different policies with different games. What I'm saying is, I think that's mistaken, and the genie is out of the bottle. That's all. That policy is buying them nothing (IMO).

 

[molnizzle]

It's not as simple as just magically allowing it. Things need to be checked and follow a certain protocol. At the moment it is done on a game by game basis based on a request from a developer.

I'm assuming next gen it will be standard on PS5 PSN.

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Except multiple devs requested it 6 months ago at the start of this crossplay "beta," and they still don't have crossplay in their games.

It actually is as simple as magically allowing it. Fortnite did it by accident in 2017. Hi-Rez has been ready to flip their switch since October, but Sony refuses to give them the green light.

 

[thevid]

I highly doubt it has anything to do with a lack of communication. The moment a topic goes public and is negative on a company, there are almost always memos and internal discussions on how the issue will be approached in a public setting. Shawn and all the other higher ups know what's going on.

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Eh, there was plenty of confusion about Xbox One always online plans from their executives, as well as the whole family sharing plan. And that was an incredibly high profile and controversial topic. I think it's entirely possible that Shawn Layden just knows that the program is out of beta, without knowing the details (that Sony can and will still block games from crossplay).

remember when Sony cared about indie games? now they're actively working against those that want crossplay and they made Jim "there was a time and a place for indie games" Ryan President and CEO of SIE. does not fill me with optimism!

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Yeah, it's been really disappointing to see Sony go from putting indies front and center and have a bunch of cool initiatives for them, to hardly a peep about them now.

 

[Budi]

They don't give a fart about these small indie studios.

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Ain't that the fucking truth, yet people were defending Jim Ryan after his, indies are less relevant comment. "No no, Sony still supports indies too!" they said. The fuck they do. Sony is really embarrassing themselves.

 

[WhovianGamer]

Except multiple devs did that 6 months ago at the start of this crossplay "beta," and they still don't have crossplay in their games.

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Then there is a problem. Provided they contacted their PlayStation account manager, followed the instructions, tested for conflicts/QA bugs then they should be allowed. If all those things were done without Sony hindering then Sony is at fault.

 

[natestellar]

He is towing the PR script to the tee here.

It's bleedingly obvious for a long time why Sony is making it difficult when it comes to cross-play, business wise it doesn't make sense to them. There are lot of people who pick up a console based on what platform their friends are playing on, having full cross-play alleviates a huge chunk of new buyers for them.

It's easy to understand their stance and while it sucks for the consumers it is what is, remember Sony just like other publishers are in the business of making money. The fact they are the top, they don't want to cede even tiny bit of territory for nought to their competitors. It happened last time in the previous generation too with roles being reversed.

Unfortunately, I don't see it changing anytime soon.

 

[JayWood2010]

Plenty of devs have said that crossplay with Sony and Xbox is literally a matter of "toggling a switch".

Plus Sony was the one who made that "think of the children" comment. So that makes it clear it's on Sony.

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What has always amused me about the "Think of the children" comment is that PSN was the center of one of the biggest data breaches of all time. They lost home addresses, purchase history, email addresses, usernames and passwords of 77 million users on the Playstation Network. 12 million users had unencrypted Credit Cards on their too.

 

[RdN]

And yet people are still here stanning for Sony as though Sony is personally their friend

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But they said they were #4THEPLAYERS! They do great exclusives which cater exclusively to my taste! They would never do something like this. Lazy devs must be lying.

 

[RedHeat]

But they said they were #4THEPLAYERS! They do great exclusives which cater exclusively to my taste! They would never do something like this. Lazy devs must be lying.

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Are you saying their exclusives aren't good?

 

[Deleted member 42]

This update makes me chuckle

fish

 

[Jiraiya]

This is great. Glad it's happening now so next gen will most likely have it. I'm sure cross play will be featured with Microsoft and Nintendo come time for reveal. Especially if Sony hasn't 100 changed their stance.

 

[molnizzle]

Then there is a problem. Provided they contacted their PlayStation account manager, followed the instructions, tested for conflicts/QA bugs then they should be allowed. If all those things were done without Sony hindering then Sony is at fault.

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...exactly? That's why everyone is calling bullshit on the PR speak here.

Hi-Rez literally called out Sony in Twitter last week asking what the hell the hold up was. They've made no progress through official channels so they've had to resort to social media. Sure doesn't sound like "open for business," even if that's what the talking suit says.

Also:

Hi all,

CEO Of Chucklefish here, we just launched Wargroove with crossplay between PC, Switch and Xbox so I wanted to chime in.

We made many requests for crossplay (both through our account manager and directly with higher ups) all the way up until release month. We were told in no uncertain terms that it was not going to happen.

From our side, we can *literally* toggle a switch and have it working. Of course policy work might be more complicated for Sony.

Just wanted to provide some balance on the issue and say that it certainly isn't a question of developers having not contacted their account managers or having dropped the ball. We were told no.

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