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nitewulf

Member
Nov 29, 2017
7,195
Initially when I watched this episode, I felt insanely frustrated. Like what the hell is going on. But over time, it has grown on me, and I think it's one of the most thought provoking TV episodes I have ever seen. It's this sense of complete frustration, and then slow realization of able to think outside of our preconceived notions of communication, concluding into an immense sense of appreciation for the imagination it took the writers and actors to achieve this.


Bonus, I would watch them live:

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MrChom

Member
Oct 26, 2017
681
I despise it. The language makes no conceptual sense to me. I get that it's all based on referencing a common set of stories but the idea of learning that from birth just does not work for me.

I know it's an unpopular opinion but I genuinely think it's one of the worst TNG episodes.
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
This is one of those "truly great" episodes that set TNG apart from it's spinoffs. Voyager and DS9 never got their equivalents though they both have really good episodes in their own right.
 

BAW

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,939
I don't like it. It pretends to be way more deep than it actually is. Actually the basic theme makes absolutely no sense at all.
 

tuffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,510
Pondering how such a language would actually work in real life is one of those "think to yourself, 'it's just a show, and I should really just relax'" exercises since the Tamarians would never be seen again in the series.

But the episode itself does a beautiful job of bringing us to that closing scene where we can understand what Picard is communicating to the Tamarian first officer because we've been following Picard's learning process the whole way. It works, and that's what makes it a great episode.
 
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nitewulf

Member
Nov 29, 2017
7,195
I never watched Voyager, I gave it a go but didn't seem good. I think DS9 as a whole is better, because it's more cohesive and tighter. But TNG has some episodes that are unmatched. My favorite episode is The Inner Light.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
I despise it. The language makes no conceptual sense to me. I get that it's all based on referencing a common set of stories but the idea of learning that from birth just does not work for me.

I know it's an unpopular opinion but I genuinely think it's one of the worst TNG episodes.
even if you don't like the conceit, there's no way an episode with the scene where Picard tells the story of Gilgamesh could be the worst TNG

 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,065
I mean it's the story-device that every sci-fi show ever does at least once (Enemy Mine - which itself was presumably influenced by some some historical tale or another), and inevitably none of them are particularly special.
Except TNG's take on it - this episode is probably among top 3 of the entire show.

Love the shirts though - I never saw those before, now I want one.
 

ivantod

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,492
I despise it. The language makes no conceptual sense to me. I get that it's all based on referencing a common set of stories but the idea of learning that from birth just does not work for me.

I know it's an unpopular opinion but I genuinely think it's one of the worst TNG episodes.
Yeah, the episode is so well executed that it feels great while you watch it... but you better not try to think it through exactly how such a language is even supposed to work in the first place! I actually like the episode, but am aware that most of it makes little sense in reality.
 

machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,807
I like the idea of the episode but it does sort of fall apart if you think about it too much. Like, if everything is communicated through phrases and idioms how do you teach the meaning of specific words contained in the phrase? A child would have to know what a wall is before you can tell the story of Shaka and the wall falling. That would imply that they can in fact communicate on a more rudimentary level as well.
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
I never watched Voyager, I gave it a go but didn't seem good. I think DS9 as a whole is better, because it's more cohesive and tighter. But TNG has some episodes that are unmatched. My favorite episode is The Inner Light.
Voyager is a fun enough romp if you turn off the think-y parts of your brain. As I said in another thread, it has far more and deeper lows than TNG had, but they tend to be funny bad versus boring, and I'll take so bad it's funny over being put to sleep.
 

KarmaCow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,155
I like the idea of the episode but it does sort of fall apart if you think about it too much. Like, if everything is communicated through phrases and idioms how do you teach the meaning of specific words contained in the phrase? A child would have to know what a wall is before you can tell the story of Shaka and the wall falling. That would imply that they can in fact communicate on a more rudimentary level as well.

Everything in Star Trek falls apart when you think too much about it. The writers (rightly) didn't create a completely coherent form of communication for an episode of a TV show because that was more important that it was alien and incomprehensible at first. The episode wasn't about puzzling out what he was talking about, but about two people who don't understand each other working together. That's why it's quintessential Star Trek.
 

Fatoy

Member
Mar 13, 2019
7,220
I like the idea of the episode but it does sort of fall apart if you think about it too much. Like, if everything is communicated through phrases and idioms how do you teach the meaning of specific words contained in the phrase? A child would have to know what a wall is before you can tell the story of Shaka and the wall falling. That would imply that they can in fact communicate on a more rudimentary level as well.
I don't think this episode holds up to deep scrutiny, but this isn't necessarily true.

All language is symbolic - just in a really granular way. A child doesn't have to know how a wall is built to know what one looks like, and the same goes for the way they handle the story-based language in this episode; child gets sad, parent repeats a short story, and eventually the child realises those words connote sadness. Soon they're repeating that story without needing to know what the individual components of it mean.

I'm probably giving the episode too much credit, but I always watched it thinking that the alien could not break "Shaka, when the walls fell" down any further. It was just his "word" (albeit a very long one) for a feeling or circumstance.
 

Sotha_Sil

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,059
This episode always reminds me of an experience I had in China. I was working with some Chinese scientists and we went into a local town's welding shop to get some custom pieces made. Keep in mind I was in a poor, relatively isolated part of China. I was likely the first, or one of the first, western people the residents had seen in real life. My translator had to run to the bank to pay in cash, and he left me with the 40 year old woman who owned the shop (I was 25 at the time). She took me upstairs to her apartment above the shop. We sat down at her table and just stared at each other in silence, not being able to speak the other's language. At the same time, we burst out laughing. She cracked open a beer and we spent the next 20-30 minutes talking what amounted to gibberish to each other. She or I would point to a random object in the room, and say something in our own language about it.

The Gilgamesh scene puts a smile to my face every time. The alien captain was willing to risk his life, and much more, just for a chance to communicate with another species. It didn't matter if they could understand one another.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
I despise it. The language makes no conceptual sense to me. I get that it's all based on referencing a common set of stories but the idea of learning that from birth just does not work for me.

I know it's an unpopular opinion but I genuinely think it's one of the worst TNG episodes.

Whatever your opinion of the episode, it's difficult to read the Nun's Priest's Tale or the Song of Songs in the meaning that was intended without a strong dose of human Darmok.

Poetic allusion exists and is extremely powerful throughout history. From Solomon through Chaucer and Shakespeare to modern exponents such as Jamaican and American poets/rappers, even in unusual forms like the internet memes that pepper our posts here, poetic allusion is alive and well.
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,127
Toronto
I despise it. The language makes no conceptual sense to me. I get that it's all based on referencing a common set of stories but the idea of learning that from birth just does not work for me.

I know it's an unpopular opinion but I genuinely think it's one of the worst TNG episodes.
It's a good episode, but I agree, it makes no sense. Without a proper language, how exactly do they learn those stories in the first place?
 

RandomDazed

Member
Oct 27, 2017
691
This episode always reminds me of an experience I had in China. I was working with some Chinese scientists and we went into a local town's welding shop to get some custom pieces made. Keep in mind I was in a poor, relatively isolated part of China. I was likely the first, or one of the first, western people the residents had seen in real life. My translator had to run to the bank to pay in cash, and he left me with the 40 year old woman who owned the shop (I was 25 at the time). She took me upstairs to her apartment above the shop. We sat down at her table and just stared at each other in silence, not being able to speak the other's language. At the same time, we burst out laughing. She cracked open a beer and we spent the next 20-30 minutes talking what amounted to gibberish to each other. She or I would point to a random object in the room, and say something in our own language about it.

The Gilgamesh scene puts a smile to my face every time. The alien captain was willing to risk his life, and much more, just for a chance to communicate with another species. It didn't matter if they could understand one another.

I love that you shared that story with us. Thank you :)
 

Deleted member 21601

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
810
Just watched that episode yesterday! I thought it was a nice concept that even with their knowledge there is still stuff that they dont understand and have to think out of the box to grasp it.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
It's a good episode, but I agree, it makes no sense. Without a proper language, how exactly do they learn those stories in the first place?

How did we learn how to communicate in these sesquipedalian latinate phrases on this forum? Episode? Language? Proper? These tokens have no clear meaning unless you spend years studying context.

I walk into a nursery and what I hear is "Ba ba!" This is clearly how humans should communicate. We went wrong somewhere in our search for a more expressive way of communicating.

Ba ba! Poo poo!
 
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nitewulf

Member
Nov 29, 2017
7,195
This episode always reminds me of an experience I had in China. I was working with some Chinese scientists and we went into a local town's welding shop to get some custom pieces made. Keep in mind I was in a poor, relatively isolated part of China. I was likely the first, or one of the first, western people the residents had seen in real life. My translator had to run to the bank to pay in cash, and he left me with the 40 year old woman who owned the shop (I was 25 at the time). She took me upstairs to her apartment above the shop. We sat down at her table and just stared at each other in silence, not being able to speak the other's language. At the same time, we burst out laughing. She cracked open a beer and we spent the next 20-30 minutes talking what amounted to gibberish to each other. She or I would point to a random object in the room, and say something in our own language about it.

The Gilgamesh scene puts a smile to my face every time. The alien captain was willing to risk his life, and much more, just for a chance to communicate with another species. It didn't matter if they could understand one another.

I love that you shared that story with us. Thank you :)

Agreed, that's a great story.
 

Parch

Member
Nov 6, 2017
7,980
Great ep.
I like how Picard relates by using a human story from Mesopotamian mythology, Gilgamesh from Uruk.
 

Therion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,105
I've always loved this episode, and I never felt the frustration that you describe. I reserve that for the Ascian language in Gene Wolfe's books, which I'm curious whether this episode was based on. If so, that would give Darmok an interesting twist, since every phrase in the Ascian language was a piece of government propaganda. It would certainly make me reevaluate the way I view the Tamarian culture.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,002
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You have to make some logical leaps, because obviously they have universal translators so the language thing needs to be really weird to even work in Star Trek, but it's ultimately a fun and enjoyable episode with a really nice message. Even more relevant when you consider how heavily memes have impacted communication in our current society.
 

ibyea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,163
It's not the worst episode, but think about it for two seconds and it falls apart.
 

Teiresias

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,211
The episode itself is great, but the conceit of the language always bothered me because I don't see how such a language allows for precise communication of scientific principles, much less the development of faster-than-light travel.
 

Nishastra

Member
Oct 27, 2017
176
Yeah, anyone who thinks this sort of communication isn't possible hasn't been paying attention to how most people communicate these days.
It's not possible in the way the episode depicts because memes don't just spring fully-formed out of nothing. They came from somewhere, and the person using them knows words that can describe them, even if they don't know the correct origin. They're shorthand, not an actual language.
 

DashReindeer

Perfect World
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
531
It's not possible in the way the episode depicts because memes don't just spring fully-formed out of nothing. They came from somewhere, and the person using them knows words that can describe them, even if they don't know the correct origin. They're shorthand, not an actual language.
Oh I know. There is a level of implausibility that this episode asks you to ignore so that it can get at the core thematic points, but I honestly don't mind.