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StudioTan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,836
No, that's bullshit. Skin colour is not a costume, period. You don't get to lecture me on what I should and shouldn't find offensive.
Skin colour is important when trying to be a double of a person while performing a stunt, in the same way the hair cut and colour is. They didn't use makeup for fun. This is a non-issue unless they purposely didn't try to find someone of colour to use as a stunt double.
 

Godfather

Game on motherfuckers
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,467
No, that's bullshit. Skin colour is not a costume, period. You don't get to lecture me on what I should and shouldn't find offensive.
So which of these is your preference?

1. Risk unqualified Indian person's life for the stunt
2. Don't cast Indian actor due to lack of qualified Indian stunt people
3. Cast Indian actor and use an obviously white stunt person
4. Cast Indian actor and use makeup/body suits to disguise the white stunt double as an Indian person

Edit: Would a different non-white ethnicity have been ok? i.e. Latino, or Middle Eastern, or Aboriginal person?
 

Deleted member 6263

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
As a brown guy this is kind of a non issue for me, especially since we have almost no details about why/how they decided to cast this stunt lady.
 

Cels

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,772
How familiar are y'all with the stunt industry? This is super common, mostly because it's a small field with a limited talent pool. You're not always gonna find a wire-work expert who is the same race as the lead (hell, sometimes they aren't even the same sex)

yeah here is a man doing stunts for jlo. i don't think the people behind this hire are some kind of virulent sexists because of this.

300.jlo2.mh.031612.jpg
 

MoonToon

Banned
Nov 9, 2018
2,029
After Deadpool 2 ... yeah, nah, I'm not bitching about stunt people not matching the color of the person they have to stand in for.

If the hand full of PoC in Stunt work are eating good then that's all that matters to me. Shit's too dangerous to get picky about.
 
OP
OP
WrenchNinja

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,724
Canada
You definitely have a right to think whatever you want. You asked my why, I answered you.
I asked you why the person's message you were quoting was an important post. No one said it was the same level as Black face, not the Twitter post or article. I don't need an explanation on what the history of mocking people with other skin tones is, I'm well aware.



The intent with this show is scene consistency possibly due to limited casting, that doesn't change that it isn't right, or that it's not necessary or more important than anything else.

Skin colour is important when trying to be a double of a person while performing a stunt, in the same way the hair cut and colour is. They didn't use makeup for fun. This is a non-issue unless they purposely didn't try to find someone of colour to use as a stunt double.
Tell me why it's important to change your skin colour for someone in garb that is completely covered and has action scenes shot in the distance, and the dark. Or why it's so important to have a dance shot the way it is in the show.

OP why are you fighting everybody?
Not trying to, somebody asked me my thoughts, people responded to me, I've been responding back, and that's what happens.

So which of these is your preference?

1. Risk unqualified Indian person's life for the stunt
2. Don't cast Indian actor due to lack of qualified Indian stunt people
3. Cast Indian actor and use an obviously white stunt person
4. Cast Indian actor and use makeup/body suits to disguise the white stunt double as an Indian person
The actor is Nepali.

I already said do number 3.

Please read the article and thread.
 

Haunted

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
2,737
User Banned (1 Week): Dismissing Concerns Regarding Brownface as “Fake Outrage”
Safety above sensitivities, seems fine to me.

Lots of fake outrage these days, careful which lynch mob for a noble cause you're getting roped in for, OP.
 

nrtn

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,562
User Banned (2 weeks): Dismissing Concerns Regarding Brownface
People are really running out of things to complain about, huh.
 

Dali

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,184
As a brown Indian living in India, while I would've preferred if the job went to a brown stuntswoman, I must recognize that brownface does not have the same history as blackface. As such, while this is definitely worthy of criticism, I don't think we should be in any way equating it to blackface.
I don't think this should be compared to black face even if the actress in question was black. Black face conjures up a specific image often paired with a mocking intent. If they're running around the set like "look at me! Yo yo yo. What up my man" that would be blackface even if it they didn't have mistrel makeup on. Wearing makeup so that your stunt comes across as being from an actor or actress of color does not qualify as blackface to me, but that's just my personal opinion.
 

StudioTan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,836
Tell me why it's important to change your skin colour for someone in garb that is completely covered and has action scenes shot in the distance, and the dark. Or why it's so important to have a dance shot the way it is in the show.
I haven't watched the show yet but presumably they wanted the actors face visible during parts of the scene so completely covering their face would take away from that. Are there zero closeups of her during that scene?

The way a scene like that is shot is determined weeks or months in advance through storyboards/animatics. You don't just change it at the last minute, that's not how action scenes work and it could be very dangerous if not done according to the plan.

Now let me ask you some questions. Would it be ok with you if they changed the skin colour to match the actress in post production? What about face replacement like what is done in most movies, is that just digital black face to you?
 

Green

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,409
I asked you why the person's message you were quoting was an important post. No one said it was the same level as Black face, not the Twitter post or article. I don't need an explanation on what the history of mocking people with other skin tones is, I'm well aware.



The intent with this show is scene consistency possibly due to limited casting, that doesn't change that it isn't right, or that it's not necessary or more important than anything else.


Tell me why it's important to change your skin colour for someone in garb that is completely covered and has action scenes shot in the distance, and the dark. Or why it's so important to have a dance shot the way it is in the show.


Not trying to, somebody asked me my thoughts, people responded to me, I've been responding back, and that's what happens.


The actor is Nepali.

I already said do number 3.

Please read the article and thread.


I'm trying to understand your frustration and I sympathize. Let's say it was a situation due to safety or availability and not poor hiring practice (not saying it is, but bear with me). How do you feel about using CGI/Deepfake-style tech for stunt/doubles? Is it the act of using makeup colouring/painting the skin of a different race to match another that is offensive to you? Would it be more/less/same offensive if it were done in post instead? (like say... Leander Deeny as the thinner Steve Rogers in the first Captain America - I know not the same situation, but just as an example of using a body double with a digitally replaced face)
 

Deleted member 18400

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,585
As usual there seems to be a lot of people reacting to a situation that no one has any actual information about.
 

iWannaHat

Member
Jul 1, 2019
1,327
The actor is Nepali.

I already said do number 3.

Please read the article and thread.

That would break all immersion in the show. Having your stunt person disguised as the actor is standard and correct practice. the stunt in question seems to require a very specific skill and matching that with a similar body double to the actor is hard especially with today's Covid restrictions.

I don't think this the hill you think it is.
 

bdbdbd

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,900
Tell me why it's important to change your skin colour for someone in garb that is completely covered and has action scenes shot in the distance, and the dark. Or why it's so important to have a dance shot the way it is in the show.
Tell me why it isn't important to respect and assist the effort of the main actor to create a believable, engaging, consistent representation of the role if all it involves is a bit of makeup that isn't intended in a disparaging way at all and is only meant to assist her in completing the embodiment of the character. Does she get a say in this?
 

Deimos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,762
Yup, better to have unqualified stunt people injure themselves. Or have a character randomly switch ethnicities throughout the show.

If we want to be serious, consider the message being sent when a brown character transforms into a white person whenever they need to demonstrate any sort of skill. Imagine the headlines.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,273
the choice to literally recolor the stunt person's arms and face are questionable. one would assume that the choice was made because the costume designed for the scene revealed a lot of the actresses skin, and the storyboarding called for close ups that would make it difficult to hide the difference in race from the stunt person to the actor. having seen the actual scene in context of the show, i actually assumed that the actress in question just knew how to do that stuff - and the scene was written to show off something she could do herself.

i can understand the difficult position the production team may have been in to ensure the audience believed the actress actually was up there doing that stuff. i'm not going to necessarily judge them for this but i am also not going to judge someone who thinks it's a shitty choice regardless. they could have done it differently and chose not to. each person's gonna have to come to their own conclusion about whether or not it's a problem.
 
OP
OP
WrenchNinja

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,724
Canada
That would break all immersion in the show. Having your stunt person disguised as the actor is standard and correct practice. the stunt in question seems to require a very specific skill and matching that with a similar body double to the actor is hard especially with today's Covid restrictions.

I don't think this the hill you think it is.
The character is already in covered garb for almost all action scenes. The dance scene could have been shot in any number of ways that didn't require brown face. I don't understand why immersion is the most important factor here.

Tell me why it isn't important to respect and assist the effort of the main actor to create a believable, engaging, consistent representation of the role if all it involves is a bit of makeup that isn't intended in a disparaging way at all and is only meant to assist her in completing the embodiment of the character. Does she get a say in this?
It is important to do the best for the actor. But how does a dance scene being shot differently disrespect the actor and change the believability, engagement and consistent representation of the entire role?

It already happened, so yeah looks like she did have a say.

I haven't watched the show yet but presumably they wanted the actors face visible during parts of the scene so completely covering their face would take away from that. Are there zero closeups of her during that scene?

The way a scene like that is shot is determined weeks or months in advance through storyboards/animatics. You don't just change it at the last minute, that's not how action scenes work and it could be very dangerous if not done according to the plan.

Now let me ask you some questions. Would it be ok with you if they changed the skin colour to match the actress in post production? What about face replacement like what is done in most movies, is that just digital black face to you?
There are close ups.

I know, which is why I'm wondering when they had the time, did they decide to make the scene like this. It's not an especially important scene. It's not a book thing as far as I know, they could have just had her in another outfit or shot it in a way you wouldn't see her face.

I'm not okay with it but it's definitely less bothering than a white person in make up.

I'm trying to understand your frustration and I sympathize. Let's say it was a situation due to safety or availability and not poor hiring practice (not saying it is, but bear with me). How do you feel about using CGI/Deepfake-style tech for stunt/doubles? Is it the act of using makeup colouring/painting the skin of a different race to match another that is offensive to you? Would it be more/less/same offensive if it were done in post instead? (like say... Leander Deeny as the thinner Steve Rogers in the first Captain America - I know not the same situation, but just as an example of using a body double with a digitally replaced face)
I appreciate this post, thank you. It's the act of the makeup and painting. The body double stuff like Steve Rogers has it's issues but is definitely less bothersome to me.

the choice to literally recolor the stunt person's arms and face are questionable. one would assume that the choice was made because the costume designed for the scene revealed a lot of the actresses skin, and the storyboarding called for close ups that would make it difficult to hide the difference in race from the stunt person to the actor. having seen the actual scene in context of the show, i actually assumed that the actress in question just knew how to do that stuff - and the scene was written to show off something she could do herself.

i can understand the difficult position the production team may have been in to ensure the audience believed the actress actually was up there doing that stuff. i'm not going to necessarily judge them for this but i am also not going to judge someone who thinks it's a shitty choice regardless. they could have done it differently and chose not to. each person's gonna have to come to their own conclusion about whether or not it's a problem.
Thank you.
 

bdbdbd

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,900
It is important to do the best for the actor. But how does a dance scene being shot differently disrespect the actor and change the believability, engagement and consistent representation of the entire role?
How innocuous you make it sound...just shoot it differently! But not that way, or that way, or that other way. Meanwhile you're also making gross assumptions about what people will and won't notice...in a thread about a situation where people had to actively go out of their way to notice something.

Having watched the show, the cast and crew seem to be of a fairly skilled and talented level that I wouldn't second guess their reasoned assessment of how it would look one way or the other, without confirmation that they either went against the actor's wishes, or passed over a stunt person of similar ethnicity with the right qualifications and availability.

It already happened, so yeah looks like she did have a say.
And shouldn't that matter? This feels a lot like speaking for/over someone rather than just letting them speak for themselves.
 

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,108
NYC
I think its completely valid to look at this and recognize there are issues with the industry that led to there not being a diverse pool of talent to be able to choose from, but also recognize that there currently IS a limited pool and safety of people on set during dangerous work is paramount, and the skin color isnt being used as a costume but as a effects tool to portray the character as possible to not detract from the story being told. IMO i ts pretty different from something like cosplay where people confuse skin color to be part of the 'costume' of a character, they're not trying to have a separate person portray a character, theyre attempting to seamlessly hide that theres even another person in the shot altogether. People here have already mentioned scenarios with little people being used for children, or men/women being used for the opposing gender. I think there are industry issues that lead to a smaller pool than there otherwise could be, but its always going to be a small pool due to the specialist nature of the work. So event with a diverse pool, tight schedules and locations will probably always make this kind occur.

I can definitely see how and why this would be an upsetting image to see, but I think context is key. I haven't really seen any practical solutions to this, outside of, i guess, 'dont do it'. But imo thats not a solution at all, that just leads to POC characters in media being limited in what theyre able to be displayed doing due to a real world lack of available talent at the time of filming.
 
OP
OP
WrenchNinja

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,724
Canada
How innocuous you make it sound...just shoot it differently! But not that way, or that way, or that other way. Meanwhile you're also making gross assumptions about what people will and won't notice...in a thread about a situation where people had to actively go out of their way to notice something.

Having watched the show, the cast and crew seem to be of a fairly skilled and talented level that I wouldn't second guess their reasoned assessment of how it would look one way or the other, without confirmation that they either went against the actor's wishes, or passed over a stunt person of similar ethnicity with the right qualifications and availability.

And shouldn't that matter? This feels a lot like speaking for/over someone rather than just letting them speak for themselves.
What are you even talking about? Where did I say no one would notice? All I said is if consistency is so important, shoot it in a way that doesn't rely on brown face. You're acting like like this scene is so pivotal for the character to rely on it, enough so that it would disrespect the actor, which is ridiculous to me

I have also watched the show and the production design is incredible. The production crew is obviously skilled but that doesn't make them infallible and immune from criticism. You don't get to skate away on this just because of how good the rest of the show is.

She's entitled to her take on the matter, just like any other brown person here is. Multiple brown people have disagreed with me here, I'm not going to say they're wrong to feel differently than me. But you don't get to tell me I'm wrong to feel this sucks.
 

Murasaki

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,726
The Deep North
Bollywood has stuntwomen and have had them for decades. Let's not pretend they don't exist...

maxresdefault.jpg


1575648456-3652.jpg



www.thetribalbox.com

India's Marvel Stuntwoman: Hanging On The Edge And Discovering Life

Sanober Pardiwalla, Bollywood's stuntwoman, a lady who strives to bring the most thrills on screen; the lady with immense power and knowledge.

www.business-standard.com

The stuntwomen of Bollywood who risk their lives to add spice to films

Five decades after Reshma Pathan became the country's first stuntwoman, Ranjita Ganesan takes a look at the lives of the athlete-actors of Indian cinema

Thanks for this; I was about to make a similar post. Being fair to the production, could they reasonably have brought over a Bollywood stunt actor for the show? I don't where it's being filmed.

I'd like to echo everybody in the thread who's talked about this issue degenerating into a self-fulfilling prophecy though. There's been so many talented Asian and Black actors who've left the UK for Bollywood, Hollywood and (previously) HK because there aren't the roles for them in the country of the birth.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
Thanks for this; I was about to make a similar post. Being fair to the production, could they reasonably have brought over a Bollywood stunt actor for the show? I don't where it's being filmed.

I'd like to echo everybody in the thread who's talked about this issue degenerating into a self-fulfilling prophecy though. There's been so many talented Asian and Black actors who've left the UK for Bollywood, Hollywood and (previously) HK because there aren't the roles for them in the country of the birth.

Although I find coloring stunt actors to fit different ethnic roles questionable, I would say actors and stunt actors are not the same. While there are tons of qualified actors and it's just a matter of finding them, I don't think that's necessarily the case for stunt actors
 

Arenesus

Member
Jan 30, 2018
146
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissing Concerns Regarding Brownface as “Outrage Culture”, Account in Junior Phase
Outrage culture is getting too much. Pick your battles, someone always has to be offended by something nowadays.
 

DSN2K

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,249
United Kingdom
Health and safety first. These are highly trained people and if they can't get exact match I really don't see the problem when it comes to stunt work.
 

Deleted member 2533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,325
Thanks for this; I was about to make a similar post. Being fair to the production, could they reasonably have brought over a Bollywood stunt actor for the show? I don't where it's being filmed.

I'd like to echo everybody in the thread who's talked about this issue degenerating into a self-fulfilling prophecy though. There's been so many talented Asian and Black actors who've left the UK for Bollywood, Hollywood and (previously) HK because there aren't the roles for them in the country of the birth.

I imagine there's a union, as well as accreditation? So you'd have to prove there was no American stunt performer capable of doing the job so they can even get a work visa, plus make sure the stunt actor has American qualifications (drivers license, union membership, other industry licenses?), and then there's the whole Covid thing going on.
 

RustyNails

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
24,586
Which would be relevant if the show was filmed in India or these women lived and worked in Hungary.



Which makes sense if the production is hiring local for the stunt crew.

You go with whoever has the necessary skill first and foremost.
Oh so if you can't find a stuntwoman of Indian origin in your small European country, you just get a blonde European woman and put brownface on her? Got it. All in the name of jobs! Amazing.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
92,987
Same arguements mixed with diet racism every time this is brought up

"There were no PoC to do it"

Why do you think that is? No PoC ever wants to be a stunt person, or are their limited doors for them to get in? Which is more plausible

"This is a stunt they had to do it safely"

This is the low racism that pops up in everyone of these these that a PoC would be instantly unqualified and would just be a token hire.

"Pick your battles"

It is never the right time
 

RustyNails

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
24,586
The issue is whether any of these stunt women are trained in the highly specific silk rope acrobatics skill set required to perform Inej's stunts, and if so whether the show was allowed to use stunt women outside of Hungary. No one in this thread is saying "there are no Indian stunt women". The conversation is that being a stunt person is not an all encompassing skillset.
So you're saying you know for a fact that they talked to these professional Indian stuntwomen and determined they lacked the silk rope skills?
 

Deleted member 4461

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,010
Sounds like a complex situation. Exacerbated by the fact that, unlike with actors, the public isn't really aware of who most stunt people are.

Even then, existing doesn't guarantee a desire or availability for the role.

I think the safest reaction (and my view, the smartest) would be to look into the industry itself rather than the choices. So, I did that:

But stunt performers don't have agents working for them in the same way that leading actors do. Like many jobs in Hollywood, getting a gig in the stunt world depends more on who you know than on what you can do.

variety.com

As Hollywood Movies Aims for More Diversity, Black Stunt Performers Seek More Visibility

Black stunt performers seek more visibility as Hollywood moves toward more diversity.

It sounds like stunt casting is connection-based, which actually makes a ton of sense here. And in an industry like film, I imagine people use tried-and-true practices to find talent. Diversity would take more effort.

And finally - I imagine that the other issue is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The article mentions that as there are more roles for black men, there are more black stunt actors. Which makes sense.

So an industry without many major roles for brown women would naturally not attract brown women to the art.

Tl;dr - it's a soup of issues, but it sounds like it could be not enough exploration, not enough talent (self-fulfilling prophecy) or a combination of both.

Which leads to this.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,122
Greater Vancouver
It clearly is a shitty situation ultimately boiled down to the fact that there's a far-too-limited talent pool in the stunt world, with little opportunities for diverse casting.
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,359
Phoenix
This seems like one of those situations where it seems it had to be done, but also, it's still gross and I don't like it.

My thoughts are, If they couldn't find a stunt double that looked like the actor to do a certain stunt then they should have rewritten the scene or sequence or done something else so it wouldn't be necessary to turn a White person into a Brown person like it's a costume.

But anyway, I am glad they were choosing safety over what Dead Pool 2 did, sure.
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
Oh so if you can't find a stuntwoman of Indian origin in your small European country, you just get a blonde European woman and put brownface on her? Got it. All in the name of jobs! Amazing.

Choices like this aren't usually up to the production crew. They can't make a country offer up a work visa. No visa, no work.

And yes, countries of all sorts will go to crazy lengths to protect jobs. Don't underestimate the power of unions and local laws.

Canada (as a random example) requires that a certain percentage of content be Canadian produced/star Canadian actors.

Like I said earlier, I'd much prefer to have a more diverse cast, and the accompanying stories, than to have the cast default to white just to prevent a mismatch with a stunt double (who is supposed to be invisible anyway).

It sucks in the short term, but in the long run, more diverse actors should increase the demand for more diverse stunt doubles.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,090
I think everyone agrees that if there was a qualified person of the same ethnicity, they should have gotten the job. If the case is that someone qualified was passed over, people should be upset. Should the industry be more diverse? Of course, but that doesn't mean we can conjure people up.

Given that, the only real discussion I see is what to do if there wasn't a qualified person of the same ethnicity to perform a dangerous stunt.

OP thinks it is preferable to use whoever with no makeup.

The makeup doesn't really bother me but I think changing the stunt to match the talent is not so crazy. Whatever the writers write, production is still limited by what is possible. If they want to put their foot down on makeup, things can be changed. Should they put their foot down? Ehhh... why not? Ultimately that is what will force diversification of talent.

The sad truth is that people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into diversity. Let's not half ass it.

That said, if there wasn't a qualified person passed over, I don't see this situation as bad. Just something that should be improved in the future
 

bastardly

Member
Nov 8, 2017
10,576
shes an aerial silk dancer, i highly doubt she was doing the stunts or fight scenes, she probably was brought in just for the circus performance for the character. if her actual stunt double isnt of indian descent then that's a major problem, because there are plenty.

it's still kind of icky how they did it since iirc the scene is fairly dark, so they really didnt need to use brownface at all tbh
 

LowParry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,730
I don't see why they couldn't of just changed said scene that didn't required said specialized stunt. We know it's wrong but I don't think we'll ever get the full story of wither or not there is a lack of specialized stunt workers for this particular ethnicity.
 

Paroni

Member
Dec 17, 2020
3,391
I don't see why they couldn't of just changed said scene that didn't required said specialized stunt. We know it's wrong but I don't think we'll ever get the full story of wither or not there is a lack of specialized stunt workers for this particular ethnicity.

If we go down that path, I'm afraid it would just lead to studios hiring less POC for action oriented roles.
 

DarthMasta

Member
Feb 17, 2018
3,887
If we go down that path, I'm afraid it would just lead to studios hiring less POC for action oriented roles.

If you're already a star, I'm sure adding a requirement for a stunt double of the same gender / ethnicity might work okay, but for everyone else, it'll be another item on the "should we hire this person" list.
 

Devil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,650
As a brown person, I don't feel offended by this, at all. It's a stunt double, not a white actor they casted and browned instead of casting a brown person. More diversitiy in the stunt business would be welcomed, but I doubt they'll always have that choice in this field and it shouldn't be priority #1 for that kind of job anyway.
 

CreepingFear

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,766
Seems like the solution would be trying to find someone of the same race/sex if possible. If not, you can do a complete digital stunt double, or have that stunt double do the stunt without coloring the face and digitally cgi the head of the real actor.
 

Psittacus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,926
As a brown person, I don't feel offended by this, at all. It's a stunt double, not a white actor they casted and browned instead of casting a brown person. More diversitiy in the stunt business would be welcomed, but I doubt they'll always have that choice in this field and it shouldn't be priority #1 for that kind of job anyway.
Since this is an aerial silk performance it's less a problem with the stunt business and more of a matter of how diverse Hungary's acrobat scene is. I know neither how many aerial silk performers Hungary is able to support nor what the demographic breakdown of the existing performers is like, but I am intrigued. Considering how white Hungary is and how niche a career that is I would be frustrated but not surprised if it turned out that there isn't anyone who could do it.

I really hope that someone manages to corner the higher ups and get an official explanation out of them though, because otherwise it's all just speculation.
 
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