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Severely crushed blacks on Xbox Series X + Samsung TV

Naner

Naner

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,016
I've been noticing an issue of crunched blacks on my Xbox Series X on certain situations. For example here, on the lower right corner.

30bba7ff-8730-4e35-9b75-554c3e829772.PNG


Here's what I know:

- It seems to affect only certain kinds of content. I think it's SDR content, because it happens on splash screens, cutscenes and Netflix, but I don't notice it during gameplay or when I watched Mando on Disney+, even on dark scenes.


- The issue even appears on screenshots, so it's not purely a connection issue between the console and the TV, but it seems much more visible and obvious on the TV.
 Night scenes on Netflix movies look horrible.

f6c07d57-483f-4b4c-9c9b-7cf476046854.PNG


- My TV only has HDMI 2.0, so usually I have to choose between 4K+HDR+60Hz or 1440p+SDR+120Hz. But even if the Xbox is outputting SDR, the issue doesn't happen if the content is HDR.


- I thought it could just be compression artifacts on pre-rendered content, but the same didn't happen playing the same content on my One X.


- I leave VRR turned on, but I'm not sure it makes a difference. I seemed to have tried changing every option on the Xbox TV settings menu (and also on my TV's display settings) and the issue persists.


- On Xbox's TV calibration tool, the dark eye doesn't appear to me at all, regardless of how bright I set the TV to.


- When plugged into my PC monitor (which is 4K, but 60Hz, SDR, no VRR), I can only see these artifacts if looking very closely, possibly because the monitor doesn't get as bright as the TV.

Has anyone else had this problem? I thought it was a calibration issue, but now I'm worried it's a hardware defect. My console was manufactured on 5th of august, 2020, if it matters. I need to know if I should contact Microsoft for a repair or replacement.
 

bes.gen

Member
Nov 24, 2017
3,339
first thing that comes to mind, console's and tv's hdmi black levels don't match.
can you check both options on both devices, don't remember the places for them out top of my head.

also my samsung has a local dimming option, not sure of your model, if thats set to high, you might try low.
 
OP
OP
Naner

Naner

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,016
bes.gen said:
first thing that comes to mind, console's and tv's hdmi black levels don't match.
can you check both options on both devices, don't remember the places for them out top of my head.

also my samsung has a local dimming option, not sure of your model, if thats set to high, you might try low.
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I thought about the HDMI black level, but apparently my TV does not have this setting! I don't know, my old Samsung from 2010 had a load of picture options, these new Smart TVs just give us a few settings. In any case, I tried setting the Xbox RGB both to TV and PC output, and the result was the same.

I don't think my TV has local dimming, only a contrast enhancing feature.
 

bes.gen

Member
Nov 24, 2017
3,339
Naner said:
I thought about the HDMI black level, but apparently my TV does not have this setting! I don't know, my old Samsung from 2010 had a load of picture options, these new Smart TVs just give us a few settings. In any case, I tried setting the Xbox RGB both to TV and PC output, and the result was the same.

I don't think my TV has local dimming, only a contrast enhancing feature.
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its in a weird place on samsung settings,
i think on external device manager or something,
if both our tvs have same ui.

there enable input plus for the hdmi port you are using for console and play with hdmi black level setting maybe.
 
Lowrys

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,338
London
Naner said:
I thought about the HDMI black level, but apparently my TV does not have this setting! I don't know, my old Samsung from 2010 had a load of picture options, these new Smart TVs just give us a few settings. In any case, I tried setting the Xbox RGB both to TV and PC output, and the result was the same.

I don't think my TV has local dimming, only a contrast enhancing feature.
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I'd be very surprised if your Samsung doesn't have a black level setting option.

The black eye test in the Xbox graphics settings definitely won't appear if you have the wrong mismatch on black level settings between console and TV. I had exactly the same problem.

In fact, now I think about it, the Xbox One graphics settings were broken in that the black eye won't appear at all if both the TV and console are set to full range. I remember testing this with my Samsung and it wouldn't work. It's probably the same on the XSX.

If you set them both to limited then you should be able to see the eye.
 
shanew21

shanew21

Member
Nov 7, 2017
516
Is your Xbox RGB space set to "limited" or "PC RGB"

PC RGB will crush your black levels if it's turned on
 
The Main Event

The Main Event

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,260
La Résistance Country
I noticed it the first time I booted up Killer Instinct. Playing Streets of Rage 4 confirmed it. Game is much darker than on Switch. I ran my Disney WOW calibration disc and my brightness was actually too high. Playing around with RGB range didn't solve it. No issue with both PS5 & Switch. I have a Sony TV.
 
Justified

Justified

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,017
Atlanta
I think it was discovered Last Gen that this is just an Xbox thing. Their default color range is "built" to assume all output is set to Limit and to use the 16-235 color space, only PC RGB will give you Full color range but I think it messes with certain games that are developed to use the recommended limited range.

I think it boils down to some people (MS included) like "Dat POP" and the 16-235 helps with the high contrast vivid colors look, unfortunately, it crushes blacks.
 
OP
OP
Naner

Naner

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,016
So I messed a lot with the settings, found the HDMI black level (left at normal on TV and limited on Xbox, not sure if I should put both at full) and, within the game mode settings, disabled a feature they call "black equalizer" or something, that apparently really brightens up the blacks and makes things look horrible.

After that I was actually able to use Xbox's regular and HDR calibration tools to adjust the picture and things look much better now.
 
Dyno

Dyno

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,256
Yeah as others have said black levels are under external devices. You may or may not have to switch game mode to auto to unblock the option.

Worth mentioning though that Samsungs actual picture settings for SDR content from default are extra crap compared to their HDR settings out of the box, and while it won't explicitly show this anywhere, they treat HDR and SDR as seperate inputs so your settings can be different on both as the signal changes automatically. You're most likely aware but just figured its worth mentioning, that if you calibrated the image for HDR on that input then when it swaps to SDR automatically you'd need to calibrate for that separately too. Its most likely just the black level though.
 
OP
OP
Naner

Naner

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,016
Dyno said:
Yeah as others have said black levels are under external devices. You may or may not have to switch game mode to auto to unblock the option.

Worth mentioning though that Samsungs actual picture settings for SDR content from default are extra crap compared to their HDR settings out of the box, and while it won't explicitly show this anywhere, they treat HDR and SDR as seperate inputs so your settings can be different on both as the signal changes automatically. You're most likely aware but just figured its worth mentioning, that if you calibrated the image for HDR on that input then when it swaps to SDR automatically you'd need to calibrate for that separately too. Its most likely just the black level though.
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Yeah, I'll keep that in mind and take another look at the settings.

And the primary issue wasn't the black level, but the black enhancement feature from game mode.
 
oneils

oneils

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,084
Ottawa Canada
Naner said:
So I messed a lot with the settings, found the HDMI black level (left at normal on TV and limited on Xbox, not sure if I should put both at full) and, within the game mode settings, disabled a feature they call "black equalizer" or something, that apparently really brightens up the blacks and makes things look horrible.

After that I was actually able to use Xbox's regular and HDR calibration tools to adjust the picture and things look much better now.
Click to expand...
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If you are up to it, mind taking two new screenshots to compare to what you have in the OP? Would be interesting to see the results.
 
Dyno

Dyno

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,256
Naner said:
Yeah, I'll keep that in mind and take another look at the settings.

And the primary issue wasn't the black level, but the black enhancement feature from game mode.
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Ahhh, hmm I may have to check for that setting on mine. I'd very likely disable it personally anyway but since I've swapped a few cables I may want to make sure of that lol.

Another option to keep in mind btw, iirc you can force an input to act like its using a pc as the source by simply renaming it, which disables virtually all of the enhancements that can cause inaccuracies, including ones that are only accessible from the service menu.
 
ShapeGSX

ShapeGSX

Member
Nov 13, 2017
5,211
Justified said:
I think it was discovered Last Gen that this is just an Xbox thing. Their default color range is "built" to assume all output is set to Limit and to use the 16-235 color space, only PC RGB will give you Full color range but I think it messes with certain games that are developed to use the recommended limited range.

I think it boils down to some people (MS included) like "Dat POP" and the 16-235 helps with the high contrast vivid colors look, unfortunately, it crushes blacks.
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You should only ever use limited range with TVs, not PC range. It does not crush blacks.

Put the TV on limited, and the console on limited and you'll be fine.

You start to get crushed blacks if you mix settings between the TV or console.
 
Lowrys

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,338
London
ShapeGSX said:
You should only ever use limited range with TVs, not PC range. It does not crush blacks.

Put the TV on limited, and the console on limited and you'll be fine.

You start to get crushed blacks if you mix settings between the TV or console.
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Xbox One definitely had a weird gamma thing whereby setting RGB to full range on console and TV crushed blacks.
 
dlauv

dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,510
I thought it was specifically the upscaler in the X1 that crushed blacks. It shouldn't do so with native content. Prob wrong tho.
 
dusan

dusan

Member
Aug 2, 2020
5,384
bes.gen said:
yeah checked its here on my samsung

PXL-20201221-134808974.jpg
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I have same problem with Series S, glad to see a thread about that. My Samsung Qled allows to change HDMI Black Level option with PS5, but when I change to HDMI 2 (Series S) is locking like that. What's the reason and Is there any solution?
 

bes.gen

Member
Nov 24, 2017
3,339
ceo said:
I have same problem with Series S, glad to see a thread about that. My Samsung Qled allows to change HDMI Black Level option with PS5, but when I change to HDMI 2 (Series S) is locking like that. What's the reason and Is there any solution?
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haha you know what when i tried right now, i saw ps5 is locked for me,
but i could change it on series x.

what i see is, its locked if hdr is engaged,
and its changable when in sdr.
same on xbox, just try after quitting any games/apps running that might have put the tv in hdr
 
EvilBoris

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,680
ceo said:
I have same problem with Series S, glad to see a thread about that. My Samsung Qled allows to change HDMI Black Level option with PS5, but when I change to HDMI 2 (Series S) is locking like that. What's the reason and Is there any solution?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If you are playing back HDR content (on a non HDMI2.1 source) it will be locked to low as it will be YUV422/420 which is limited range by design - so the TV might lock it to that.

The Xbox has a test pattern built into it, it's very easy to identify if you setup is actually crushing blacks or not .
It is designed for low video levels from what I gather, so if you've set your video range to PC, then it will not function correctly.
 
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EvilBoris

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,680
TheGhost said:
yeah but even on 360 The crushed blacks and shadows were bad and a talking point.
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It used an approximation of a gamma 2.2 curve, which would have made some near blacks slightly darker, that has nothing to do with Destiny 2, which is notoriously underexposed across all platforms - made worse by a HDR setup that tells you to crush blacks.
 
dusan

dusan

Member
Aug 2, 2020
5,384
bes.gen said:
haha you know what when i tried right now, i saw ps5 is locked for me,
but i could change it on series x.

what i see is, its locked if hdr is engaged,
and its changable when in sdr.
same on xbox, just try after quitting any games/apps running that might have put the tv in hdr
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

EvilBoris said:
If you are playing back HDR content (on a non HDMI2.1 source) it will be locked to low as it will be YUV422/420 which is limited range by design - so the TV might lock it to that.

The Xbox has a test pattern built into it, it's very easy to identify if you setup is actually crushing blacks or not .
It is designed for low video levels from what I gather, so if you've set your video range to PC, then it will not function correctly.
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I checked the General Video Fidelity & Overscan >> Video Fidelity >> Colour Depth on Xbox and when I set the depth to ''24 Bits per pixel (8-Bit)'' It's unlocked the Samsung's HDMI Black level settings like PS5. That's the solution for Black Levels and we need to set the 8-Bit choice as permanent I guess.
 
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Primal Sage

Primal Sage

Virtually Real
Member
Nov 27, 2017
9,700
Xpider_MX said:
One X and Series X here and zero issues.
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They actually have the crushed black level issue too. All Xboxes from 360 and forward do this. But many developers compensate for the wrongly calibrated video output. That's why some games seem to look correct and others don't. The devs have or haven't corrected for it.

Some games like Destiny 2 or Fallen Order looking wrong in HDR is a separate issue. That's just bad HDR implementations.
 
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