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Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,641
Costa Rica
That's the real problem with it all for me. Not that I was rooting for Kylo specifically but that the deconstructionist tones it was stepping in were far more interesting than the ultimate message of the movie which was essentially a return to the status quo.

This. The route Kylo was walking was infinitely more interesting. TLJ wanted me to think Kylo is looking at it wrong and that Rey learns from the past and goes with that knowledge towards an uncertain future. So she does it right.

But Luke's speech at the end could be summed up as "STAR WARS IS STILL REBELS VS EMPIRE WITH ONLY ONE JEDI. JUST LIKE YOU LIKED IT!! THIS IS JUST LIKE THE PAST"

So the uncertain future is the same shit as before....That takes me out of the film and my interest drops like a rock.
 

Deleted member 7777

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
681
It is the theme though. The movie is a giant middle finger to the fans who demand the story be the way they want it, and I loved every minute of it.
 
Jan 3, 2018
3,404
This. The route Kylo was walking was infinitely more interesting. TLJ wanted me to think Kylo is looking at it wrong and that Rey learns from the past and goes with that knowledge towards an uncertain future. So she does it right.

But Luke's speech at the end could be summed up as "STAR WARS IS STILL REBELS VS EMPIRE WITH ONLY ONE JEDI. JUST LIKE YOU LIKED IT!! THIS IS JUST LIKE THE PAST"

So the uncertain future is the same shit as before....That takes me out of the film and my interest drops like a rock.

Don't kill the past. Milk the past.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,708
The Jedi is used as a plural during the entire series.
Well besides all that Skywalker does not equal jedi in the first place, A Skywalker "rising" doesn't mean the jedi are.

I mean of course they are cause they're gonna be redoing the nearly perfect ending of ROTJ cause what else are you gonna do but beat Sheev and Empire 2.0 again and celebrate again with Rey aka the new last jedi.... again. But yeah you wouldn't necessarily get confirmed returning jedi just from the title unlike Return of the Jedi which is super straightforward.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,641
Costa Rica
In this instance it is especially when people are accusing the ST of being nothing but nostalgia bait.

That's the problem, Prequels did have a lot of callbacks. But they also introduced lots of new stuff.

ST brought the whole galaxy to a stagnant state in the name of nostalgia. And has done NOTHING but that. And the second TLJ appears to be trying to break that....it falls right back into the status quo and left in the hands of JJ Abrams who immediately brings Sheev back despite having Kylo and the Knights right there..

So yeah. ST is the worst sinner for me.
 

Big One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,277
I've always interpretted as the message of the movie is that, "Let the past die" and the "I'm NOT the last Jedi." not being mutually exclusive. As in one doesnt override or counteract with the other.

F.E. the theme of letting the old order die was kind of the theme of the prequels. However it was done in an unbalanced way, as the Sith was the one to destroy the old order and not the Jedi.

Then years later Luke made the mistake of recreating that flawed order, and it let to imbalance yet again as half of his school turned to the Dark Side as a rebellion against the old order.

"Balance" in Star Wars isnt the existence of the Jedi Order nor is it that hogwash of "Grey Jedi" or whatever, it's a true beacon of light a TRUE Jedi that isnt bound to archaic ways. It's kind of the same lines how a lot of Japanese culture stuff idolize the ronin character rather than the samurai that worked with the shogun.
 

Cranster

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,788
That's the problem, Prequels did have a lot of callbacks. But they also introduced lots of new stuff.

ST brought the whole galaxy to a stagnant state in the name of nostalgia. And has done NOTHING but that. And the second TLJ appears to be trying to break that....it falls right back into the status quo and left in the hands of JJ Abrams who immediately brings Sheev back despite having Kylo and the Knights right there..

So yeah. ST is the worst sinner for me.

The ST films are better movies than the PT. In addition, if the sequel trilogy did nothing new then explain all the fans who keep complaining that TLJ didn't end up like it did in their own made up head canon?!

Finally, bringing back Palpatine was always the plan with this trilogy. Even before The Empire Strikes Back Lucas originally planned for Palpatine to be defeated in Episode 9.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,089
Los Angeles, CA
TLJ is a carbon copy of The Lion King

I mean, "TLK," "TLJ"? It's just one letter off in the alphabet! Of course that hack Johnson just ripped off The Lion King. Fricking shameless. I'm absolutely disgusted.

I bet Rise of Skywalker is going to be a rip off of The Hunchback of Notredame. Abrams is just as bad of a hack as Johnson! Forking hacks, the lot of them.



Hack.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,435
I'm not sure how any of this contradicts or doesn't directly support the messaging of the film, which is what Yoda says to Luke. Even in that scene, Yoda burns down the old Jedi temple/tree. Because he knows that Rey has the Jedi texts.

The messaging was never "keep the past" but rather "learn from the past and use that knowledge to inspire future generations".

The messaging could hardly be any clearer. Luke transforms from "it's time for the Jedi to end" to "I will not be the last Jedi".

"Learn from your mistakes" is a subplot for the OT characters to learn. They have nothing to do with the current gen characters. The Yoda / Luke scene happened so Luke could learn this as it was his battle. It has zero to do with the overall theme of the movie and is surface level stuff ,which is what people have been trying to point out to you.

i can't believe 9 pages in and people are misconstruing the Yoda / Luke scene , cherry pickinng details from it to support "learn from your mistakes". One major detail omitted is the fact that Yoda burned the Jedi books in front if Luke to drive the theme that everyone is missing

This movie follows three threads (Kylo/ Rey/ Luke, Rose / Finn, and Poe / Leia) each sharing a common theme that being the theme of the movie: to not idolize legends and realize that the people you look up to are just as fall-able as you and to follow your own path. Every single one of the three threads follows this to a T.

The theme is to reject idolized "heroes" and to set yourself apart and find your own path. Not only is this the driving idea behind this movie, but an extended one introduced early on in TFA, which introduces us to a Kylo obsessed with being like his Grandfather.
Kylo grew up in the shadow of these legends, one who he thinks even tried to murder him, and who also worhsipped his grandfather, someone who paved his own path.

The common thread that runs across , Rey / Luke, Rose / Fin , Kylo and The Order is that each made the mistake of looking up to heroes (kylo: vader, rey: luke, rose : finn, etc) only to find out they were all fallable. Poe is the only one who rejects idolizing anyone and insists he knows what needs to be done to save the lives of the rebels.

Then you have the sub plots for said fallable heroes, namely Luke. In other words, learning from failure is a means to an end for Luke and a driving force to help propel him to help push the plot forward . Again, Finn, Rey, Rose have not failed so driving home that the theme of the movie is learning from mistakes is not applicable. These are

Rose is a clear indicator here. Her first scene with Finn and she is head over heels over the stories and how he's this hero, only to find out he is self indulgent and winds up being the hero saving his life. Her arc is complete in this movie. She's not worshipping Finn and romanticizing him as a hero and stands side by side with him as the movie closes.

Yea, Yoda does nearly break the fourth wall. But after telling Luke he doesn't and never needed the teachings in books to pave the oath forward to him. He had experience, failures, to help him master his path. The moving from failures isnt the cruz of the message, it is why you need to move from said failures that is. Luke is down here because he feels he cannot inspire after making a mistake because he failed expectations of the code , of his teachings. Yoda is there to say those expectations do not matter. Only the choice to continue does. That's a lesson for Luke . He too need not worship an idolized version of his "legend".

When you look at all three arcs in TLJ, they all land right where they need to be to drive home all of this. Kylo is now Supreme Chancellor, Rey is a Knight in her own right, Poe'a instincts to follow his own instincts saves what little of the rebellion is left and Rose is a bad ass. They didn't learn from the mistakes of Luke, Vader , Leia etc. No, they accomplished this despite of these "legends".
 
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Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I mean, "TLK," "TLJ"? It's just one letter off in the alphabet! Of course that hack Johnson just ripped off The Lion King. Fricking shameless. I'm absolutely disgusted.

I bet Rise of Skywalker is going to be a rip off of The Hunchback of Notredame. Abrams is just as bad of a hack as Johnson! Forking hacks, the lot of them.



Hack.
Wait-What_3c230.gif
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,362
Well the message of the movie that people take away is usually the most compellingly illustrated one, so I suppose the rest of the narrative failed for others.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,708
The ST films are better movies than the PT. In addition, if the sequel trilogy did nothing new then explain all the fans who keep complaining that TLJ didn't end up like it did in their own made up head canon?!

Finally, bringing back Palpatine was always the plan with this trilogy. Even before The Empire Strikes Back Lucas originally planned for Palpatine to be defeated in Episode 9.
Treverrow just confirmed he didn't have Sheev in his plans for Episode 9 so no it was never "always the plan". He said it was JJ who brought back Sheev.

And Lucas changed his original plans for Episode 9 and the sequels when he got burnt out during Empire and had the final confrontation with the Emperor changed to Episode 6. As for his later plans for the sequels we have no idea what, if any role Sheev would have played. Lucas himself has only talked about the Whills stuff, said that Disney DIDN'T use his ideas, and Hamill talked about his character originally dying in 9.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
"Learn from your mistakes" is a subplot for the OT characters to learn. They have nothing to do with the current gen characters. The Yoda / Luke scene happened so Luke could learn this as it was his battle. It has zero to do with the overall theme of the movie and is surface level stuff ,which is what people have been trying to point out to you.

i can't believe 9 pages in and people are misconstruing the Yoda / Luke scene , cherry pickinng details from it to support "learn from your mistakes". One major detail omitted is the fact that Yoda burned the Jedi books in front if Luke to drive the theme that everyone is missing

This movie follows three threads (Kylo/ Rey/ Luke, Rose / Finn, and Poe / Leia) each sharing a common theme that being the theme of the movie: to not idolize legends and realize that the people you look up to are just as fall-able as you and to follow your own path. Every single one of the three threads follows this to a T.

The theme is to reject idolized "heroes" and to set yourself apart and find your own path. Not only is this the driving idea behind this movie, but an extended one introduced early on in TFA, which introduces us to a Kylo obsessed with being like his Grandfather.
Kylo grew up in the shadow of these legends, one who he thinks even tried to murder him, and who also worhsipped his grandfather, someone who paved his own path.

The common thread that runs across , Rey / Luke, Rose / Fin , Kylo and The Order is that each made the mistake of looking up to heroes (kylo: vader, rey: luke, rose : finn, etc) only to find out they were all fallable. Poe is the only one who rejects idolizing anyone and insists he knows what needs to be done to save the lives of the rebels.

Then you have the sub plots for said fallable heroes, namely Luke. In other words, learning from failure is a means to an end for Luke and a driving force to help propel him to help push the plot forward . Again, Finn, Rey, Rose have not failed so driving home that the theme of the movie is learning from mistakes is not applicable. These are

Rose is a clear indicator here. Her first scene with Finn and she is head over heels over the stories and how he's this hero, only to find out he is self indulgent and winds up being the hero saving his life. Her arc is complete in this movie. She's not worshipping Finn and romanticizing him as a hero and stands side by side with him as the movie closes.

Yea, Yoda does nearly break the fourth wall. But after telling Luke he doesn't and never needed the teachings in books to pave the oath forward to him. He had experience, failures, to help him master his path. The moving from failures isnt the cruz of the message, it is why you need to move from said failures that is.

When you look at all three arcs in TLJ, they all land right where they need to be to drive home all of this. Kylo is now Supreme Chancellor, Rey is a Knight in her own right, Poe'a instincts to follow his own instincts saves what little of the rebellion is left and Rose is a bad ass. They didn't learn from the mistakes of Luke, Vader , Leia etc. No, they accomplished this despite of these "legends".
.. I never once said "learn from your mistakes" is the main messaging. I think it's pretty clear that "learn from the past to build a better future" is the thrust of the message, though not the only theme from the film. Obviously Rey/Poe/Finn had their own lessons to learn and there are multiple themes throughout the movie.

I can't believe after two years, people still think Yoda burned all the books. Rey took the important books and will spend the next year studying them/learning from them. He stated that she already has what she needs, when talking to Luke (he burned the tree knowing this)

What exactly is being cherry picked or misconstrued here? I'm literally taking quotes from Yoda himself, who delivers the message and purpose of the destruction scene with Luke. He literally tells you what the message is. That doesn't mean it's the only message in the film, it just means it's the overarching one that stands as bigger than a character or two.. it's about the future of Star Wars. A commentary on the Jedi and Sith, and how the good guys carry on/make a better future for those who come after.

You're missing the fact that Luke returns and becomes the guy who everyone thought he was.. a Jedi Master who doesn't remain hidden/severed from the force. The guy who inspires/gives hope to the galaxy.

That's literally the end of the movie and beaten over the audience's head multiple times. Kids playing with a Luke doll who saves the day against the baddies. Obviously, he needed help to get there, and failed before achieving it, and we've learned that we can't just rely on heroes to come save the day.. that they need help, like anyone else.

I'm not sure how your takeaway can be "they accomplished this despite these 'legends'" when the last shot of the movie is a kid emulating Luke Skywalker.

But the overarching/grand message of TLJ is not "your heroes suck, pave your own path". Everybody needs help, even Luke Skywalker.

Again though, it's very clear that TLJ was a commentary on the path forward, not reliant on just one person's story or destiny. How you've got to learn from the past in order to make a better future. Which is quite literally what Yoda says to Luke, in arguably the most important scene in the entire film.

To refresh some memories:

YODA: Skywalker, still looking to the horizon. Never here, now, hmmm? (pokes Luke with his walking stick) The need in front of your nose. Hmmm?

LUKE: I was weak. Unwise.

YODA: Lost Ben Solo, you did. Lose Rey, we must not.

LUKE: I can't be what she needs me to be.

YODA: Heeded my words not, did you? Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery. But weakness, folly, falure, also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.

TLJ heavily foreshadows Luke's teachings/guidance with Rey in the next movie. This is in the script people
 
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Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
11,690
Thailand
In Poe Comics.
Rey try to read old jedi books/text with C3PO helps.

Not sure what she think about it because it doesn't get any mentioned after that.

Probably on post ep.9 books.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,429
Chicago
There's a lot in this film that is pretty open to interpretations. Kind of assholish to fill those gaps for people act like you're that much better at consuming media than them.

Get over yourself... Kill it if you have to...
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,435
.

I'm not sure how your takeaway can be "they accomplished this despite these 'legends'" when the last shot of the movie is a kid emulating Luke Skywalker.

I've explained it in my post in detail. You are reducing it In favor of assuming some kid is "imitating Luke" (one of my stretches in your post)

Go over the three arcs in the film which run parallel to each other.

What failures are Rey, Poe, Finn and Rose learning from exactly?

When you look at the relationships these characters have with the OT characters and see where they are at by the end of the movie, as i detailed in my last post, my point stands.

Nobody is thrusting anything into anyone in this film.

Rey thought Luke had the answers. He flung his saber away. She wasn't what he expected.

Rose thought Finn was a hero. She learned quickly he very much isn't. Yet. He wasn't what she expected.

Kylo distances himself from Vader and Snoke.

Poe ignores the orders of his commanders. A trait Leia winds up loving about him.

Luke looks back to books. They didn't stop him from failure.

Literally everything in your post is ignoring the nuance and taking everything at face value which is fine, I guess. But again, there's more to it than that.

When you rewatch the movie through the lens of "moving from failures and teaching future generation", you'll see that none of the three main arca in the movie have anything to do with that simply by looking at where the charcters are where they wind up.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I've explained it in my post in detail. You are reducing it In favor of assuming some kid is "imitating Luke"

Go over the three arcs in the film which run parallel to each other.

What failures are Rey, Poe, Finn and Rose learning from exactly?

When you look at the relationships these characters have with the OT characters and see where they are at by the end of the movie, as i detailed in my last post, my point stands.

Nobody is thrusting anything into anyone in this film.

Rey thought Luke had the answers. He flung his saber away. She wasn't what he expected.

Rose thought Finn was a hero. She learned quickly he very much isn't. Yet. He wasn't what she expected.

Kylo distances himself from Vader and Snoke.

Poe ignores the orders of his commanders. A trait Leia winds up loving about him.

Luke looks back to books. They didn't stop him from failure.

Literally everything in your post is ignoring the nuance and taking everything at face value which is fine, I guess. But again, there's more to it than that.

When you rewatch the movie through the lens of "moving from failures and teaching future generation", you'll see that none of the three main arca in the movie have anything to do with that simply by looking at where the charcters are where they wind up.
..the kid in question just got done playing with a Luke doll, in the context of him having just saved the galaxy (also being the last known living Jedi, or hero who wields a saber). You don't think him holding an imitated saber is an emulation of Luke?

I also didn't argue that this exact message explicitly applies to every single character and their individual arcs, just that the overarching message is about more than just a handful of characters (I said this in a previous post). It's about the future.. that will be led by Rey (the hero who represents the future of the good guys), who is in ownership of the Jedi texts, through the guidance of Luke. It's heavily implied in TLJ (I posted the evidence above), and Luke is directly talking to Rey in TROS ("a thousand generations live in you now". It's about everyone working together to achieve that goal, which is surely what will have happened in the year leading up to TROS.

That doesn't mean each of the main characters don't also learn lessons and change on their own, which is why I said it's not the only messaging in the movie.

"Your heroes will fail you, pave your own path" doesn't hold up when you examine the arcs of the good guys. Rey helped Luke find peace (while having returned to save her life along with everyone else's), and it's heavily implied that he will be guiding her in the next film. Yoda says it. Luke realizes it. Luke magically saves the galaxy and inspires anybody interested in being a good guy.

Luke returned to save the day. He became the hero he once was, with a new understanding/philosophy. People are inspired by Luke across the galaxy. Leia taught Poe how to be a leader and helped lead the resistance to where they are and will continue to mentor Rey ("we have everything we need"). Han returned to the fight and helped Rey/Finn, became a father figure to Rey, allowed the hero to continue on her journey/helped rescue her from capture. He sacrificed his own life in an attempt to save his son's, which may even play a significant role in turning Ben back to the light (I would personally hate this though).

Obviously, they need help and inspiration from those around them.. they're flawed (sometimes even broken) people, just like anyone else. But at their core, they're still the good people we met in the OT who fight the baddies.

Point to me where I've ignored your post or points. Whereas you continue to ignore the fact that the heroes from the OT (namely Luke, posted with evidence above) still keep the same spirit that made them memorable and inspirational for future generations.. after getting some help from their friends in the ST.
 
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Oct 26, 2017
5,435
"Your heroes will fail you, pave your own path" doesn't hold up when you examine the arcs of the good guys.

Correct, it doesn't hold up and I never argued otherwise so I have no desire to understand why you are quoting words I never typed. My position is that the crux of the message was to stop idolizing people / glorifying the past not when they have as much to learn from you and you do from them. That doesn't speak as to whether or not said people will or won't fail you. These two conditions are not mutually exclusive.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Correct, it doesn't hold up and I never argued otherwise so I have no desire to understand why you are quoting words I never typed. My position is that the crux of the message was to stop idolizing people / glorifying the past not when they have as much to learn from you and you do from them. That doesn't speak as to whether or not said people will or won't fail you. These two conditions are not mutually exclusive.
The theme is to reject idolized "heroes" and to set yourself apart and find your own path. Not only is this the driving idea behind this movie, but an extended one introduced early on in TFA, which introduces us to a Kylo obsessed with being like his Grandfather.
How is this any different than what I said? It's absolutely not the driving idea behind TLJ or TFA, as evidenced in the arcs of the OT characters (the new cast has relied on help from the old and will continue to do so). I posted my evidence in the posts you quoted.

Instead of addressing the content of my posts you just keep ignoring the effort I'm putting in, so I guess I'm going to stop doing that.
 

Parcas

Member
Dec 12, 2017
1,735
True it is just a bad movie that goes nowhere.

but we learned that war is bad and just profits rich people playing in casinos so that was a great learning.
 
Pretty sure it was just a fixture of the trailer and other marketing materials and people decided that was what the movie was about. Coincided neatly with the narrative that Johnson hates Star Wars and wants to burn it down.
Ironically, this interpretation is now also being used by some fans of TLJ to attack JJ Abrams for supposedly undoing TLJ and making use of stuff from the past of the franchise.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
I'm not sure how any of this contradicts or fails to support the lesson Yoda taught Luke (the main message of the movie).

It doesn't. What it does is add an exception to the rule. When the past is meant to inspire, its real form must be killed so an idealized version of it can perform that function.

Also, Luke is not done with Rey. He narrates the trailers and surely will interact with Rey more in EP9.

I don't doubt it.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
Poe's arc is not to find his own path. It's actually his instincts and hotheaded decisions that get people killed and make him unable to see the bigger picture. He literally learns from Holdo's example that there's better way to lead... which is just to survive and live to fight another day. It's a very similar theme in Dunkirk.. sometimes survival is enough.

Unfortunately, it's his instincts that force her to martyr herself for the Resistance.
 

Deleted member 17207

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,208
Ya gotta wonder if these discussions would need to be had if the movie had just done a better job at expressing what it was trying to lol.

That's honestly what my feeling was leaving the theatre, I needed to sit and think about what I thought the movie was trying to tell me. To be honest, I'm still not 100% on it.

One example I keep seeing brought up is Yoda telling Luke that Rey already has what she needs, but then she has the books at the end. Did Yoda know that? If so, what did he mean by it? Etc.
 

Deleted member 17207

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,208
This. The route Kylo was walking was infinitely more interesting. TLJ wanted me to think Kylo is looking at it wrong and that Rey learns from the past and goes with that knowledge towards an uncertain future. So she does it right.

But Luke's speech at the end could be summed up as "STAR WARS IS STILL REBELS VS EMPIRE WITH ONLY ONE JEDI. JUST LIKE YOU LIKED IT!! THIS IS JUST LIKE THE PAST"

So the uncertain future is the same shit as before....That takes me out of the film and my interest drops like a rock.
This.

I still think it would've been a way better ending had Rey gone with Kylo. Have it changed so Kylo does call off the attack, and the small remaining resistance end up stranded on Crait or whatever, wondering where Rey is - and have Rey take his hand and go towards an uncertain path. We'd all be asking "Is Kylo still evil? Is Rey going to become evil if so? Is Kylo good now? What does this all mean?".

That's where I thought it was going, let's forget about good vs evil and just go figure this shit out together, but nah - Kylo just turned out to be evil and Rey turned out to be perfect and the movie ended as though it had never happened. I thought that it would've made a lot more sense for her to do that after leaving Luke the way she did, too. Luke being the way he was, was great to me - but it basically had zero impact on Rey as a character.
 

Sacul64

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,755
no dude

episode 6 was always meant to be about Luke only

Point is old expanded EU at least the parts that I am aware of from things like Jedi outcast had new Jedi being trained by Luke. That happened in between 6-7 but we never saw it and by 7 it was the rebels and single Jedi vs empire again.