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Series X can do 10GB in 2 seconds without decomp block, last gen may be holding back some features?

Cosmic Voyager

Cosmic Voyager

Banned
Oct 24, 2019
6,560
gothmog said:
Sometimes I feel like people think there's some kind of cross-gen playbook. I've been a developer for years (not in the gaming industry). The only real limitations are usually time and budget. Everything else is discovered using what is usually some kind of "art of the possible" design sessions. People can get really creative when the vision of the product is on the line.

So the PS4 version could have a cutscene where you get on your mount to hide the load. PS5 could just have you jumping on it and going. That handwaves a bunch of design work on the back end, but the PS5 seems well suited to weaving it together seamlessly.
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I getcha, and that would be a decent solution. I just think it's a bit naive of people to assume that the crossgen version of a game is the version we still would have gotten if it had been exclusive to the more powerful hardware (outside of spinoff/midquel type games like Miles Morales)

Hybrid Rainbow said:
That's a whole lot of assuming that you are doing though. We don't know what Guerilla's design goals and motivations are so we can't start ascribing things that we want to to see in the sequel and then getting upset when we don't get them and blame it on cross-gen. That's unfair to the devs.
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That's fair, I was just using a convenient example since that's an idea that gets tossed around a lot. It doesn't really matter what the specific mechanic or design choice is, the overall point is just that crossgen absolutely does hinder the extent of the innovations that devs can make
 
mordecaii83

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,853
rntongo said:
Either he meant 10GB in 2 seconds using CPU decompression, or it could be due to the SSD being able to reach higher raw speeds than advertised. We recently found out some extra customizations that were done to the SSD controller. There is an extra asic that enables the E-19 controller to go past its rated 3.75GB/s speed to 3.938GB/s. So its a different SSD than you will find in other machines. Either way, with the decomp block, 10GB in less than 2 seconds is very possible.
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PCIe 3.0 drives top out at around 3.5GB/s which afaik is the max speed they can reach due to the bus (which means it doesn't matter what customizations MS made they would still be bus limited) so there wound need to be some sort of decompression still happening. In the end I don't expect to see a substantial real world difference between the consoles except for maybe first parties.

Edit: PCIe 3.0 x4 max theoretical is just under 4.0GB/s.
 
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rntongo

rntongo

Banned
Jan 6, 2020
2,712
mordecaii83 said:
PCIe 3.0 drives top out at around 3.5GB/s which afaik is the max speed they can reach due to the bus (which means it doesn't matter what customizations MS made they would still be bus limited) so there wound need to be some sort of decompression still happening. In the end I don't expect to see a substantial real world difference between the consoles except for maybe first parties.

Edit: PCIe 3.0 x4 max theoretical is just under 4.0GB/s.
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The Series X is PCIe 4.0 x2!! Not PCIe 3.0 x4.
 
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rntongo

rntongo

Banned
Jan 6, 2020
2,712
Abominuz said:
I thought this was known for both the PS5 and for Series X.
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Yes the new thing here is the custom Series X SSD controller and more important the ability to push 10GB of data into RAM without the decomp block. The rating of 4.8GB/s after decompression is a conservative estimate.
 
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rntongo

rntongo

Banned
Jan 6, 2020
2,712
Cosmic Voyager said:
The amount of people who downplay the impact of crossgen on game design is so aggravating. Like yes Forbidden West will still be gorgeous and yes it will still be fun, those are givens. But at the end of the day it won't be the monumental leap forward that we were hoping it would be, because it's still shacked by the limitations of what's possible on PS4, not designed around what new things are now made possible with PS5
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Yes, nextgen games are not just improved resolution and framerates.
 
Waaghals

Waaghals

Member
Oct 27, 2017
856
Atheerios said:
I don't think that is going to change because of PCs.

PCs will hold that aspect back for the whole generation. Even if developers require SSDs, they won't require PCIE 4 for example, they won't be as fast.
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The PC market isn't important enough to AAA developers for them to hold back consoles. Once consoles go fully to SSD storage you will need a fast SSD on pcs as well. PC gamers will simply have to deal with it and upgrade. That is how that platform works.

In the short term, the new consoles will be held back by the POS CPUs and HDDs in the last gen consoles, just like PC has been for five years.
 
Ra

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,198
Dark Space
BaileyBLM said:
Disappointing to see homophobic and toxic YouTube channels being promoted here
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If you know something, you should probably share. There's a billion content creators out there and it's impossible for everyone to have vetted every single person when they com across a video in their recommendations or through a search.
 

BaileyBLM

Alt-Account
Banned
Aug 25, 2020
118
rntongo said:
Sorry about this. Could you identify which channel and the incident when they made homophobic and toxic statements and I will remove it from the OP.
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www.resetera.com

Windows Central Journo Telling People to Follow Homophobic Toxic Gamer

I'm really surprised to see Jez Corden telling people to follow Dealer Gaming. For those of you who are unaware, Dealer has been one of the most toxic gamers in the community. He literally did a video calling Playstation users F@gs and talking about their mothers. Why in the hell would a well...
www.resetera.com www.resetera.com
 
Calabi

Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,483
zedox said:
Well you can designate certain threads to load to certain parts of an array.

[]int a = int[100]

Thread 1:
for (int i = 0; i < 50; i++) { a = random(0,10); }

Thread 2:
for (int i = 50; i < 100; i++) { a = random(0,10); }

Thread1.Start()
Thread2.Start()

Theres other ways but u can add based on how much memory one would hold kinda like when initializing an object, how much space is being allocated for that object. Small things.
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Yeah I guess that's one way of doing it, but that is still really inefficient, and will cause major slow down with the next gen SSDs and there speedy IOs.
 
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rntongo

rntongo

Banned
Jan 6, 2020
2,712
dom

dom

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,435
How can it be 5GB/s in raw data if the hardware limit doesn't reach that?
 
hikarutilmitt

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
11,397
Mister_X said:
I think it's because of Dealer but yea I agree.
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To be fair, it's not just this instance because it happens in a good number of threads where someone just does this kind of post and leaves it at that.


BaileyBLM said:
www.resetera.com

Windows Central Journo Telling People to Follow Homophobic Toxic Gamer

I'm really surprised to see Jez Corden telling people to follow Dealer Gaming. For those of you who are unaware, Dealer has been one of the most toxic gamers in the community. He literally did a video calling Playstation users F@gs and talking about their mothers. Why in the hell would a well...
www.resetera.com www.resetera.com
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Oy, that's.... yeah wow.
 
Myself

Myself

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,282
Interesting to see how load times will go. I'm playing AC origins at the moment and loading a save takes about 3 seconds - lightning!
 
zombiejames

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,916
Cosmic Voyager said:
The amount of people who downplay the impact of crossgen on game design is so aggravating. Like yes Forbidden West will still be gorgeous and yes it will still be fun, those are givens. But at the end of the day it won't be the monumental leap forward that we were hoping it would be, because it's still shacked by the limitations of what's possible on PS4, not designed around what new things are now made possible with PS5
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Exactly. 100% agree. Cross-gen is a figurative and literal drag.
 
Scottoest

Scottoest

Member
Feb 4, 2020
11,319
Iwao said:
I would very much doubt it's coming any sooner than 2022, if it was in early development this July.
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That weighs heavily on what exactly Spencer meant by "early". A lot of people were surprised he used that word, because Forza 7 came out three years ago, and while that game got lots of updates, they weren't the kinds of things that screamed "the entire studio is still working on this game". They also said the next game was already pre-alpha over a year ago.

So either it really is early days (somehow...), in which case 2022 is definitely possible, or it was a way of saying "it ain't coming this year folks", in which case a year from now is very possible.

Also keep in mind that they are unlikely to release Horizon and Motorsport in the same year, so this is further pushing out the next Horizon game too.
 
Chettlar

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
Ocirus said:
This is exactly the kind of stuff people are upset about with crossgen games. I get the whole "you're acting like you're entitled and privileged" argument, but I'm not going to, like, shame myself for working to purchase a new product in my favorite hobby just because I was able to. It's a product, people have purchased it, and expectedly want to have content that they couldn't have before. The concept that last gen is holding the new consoles back isn't some conspiracy brought on by entitled/privileged console owners. It's fact.

I personally don't really mind for the next year or so, since it's unreasonable to assume devs have all been prepping for years to exclusively build games for a console, especially when they likely didn't have hard specs until sometime this spring/summer. After a year or two is when I'd start getting disappointed if devs aren't committing to looking forward.
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This 100%.
 
Qudi

Qudi

Member
Jul 26, 2018
5,317
Chettlar said:
This 100%.
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I can understand that some people want to to play the latest games without having to fork a few hundred dollars for a new machine, but its been 7 years ffs. Its time to move on. Just hearing Blueploint gushing about all they can achieve without having to worry any kind of limit makes me sad that we are at least 2 years away from being free of the curse.
 
Dolce

Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,233
Qudi said:
I can understand that some people want to to play the latest games without having to fork a few hundred dollars for a new machine, but its been 7 years ffs. Its time to move on. Just hearing Blueploint gushing about all they can achieve without having to worry any kind of limit makes me sad that we are at least 2 years away from being free of the curse.
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Hey, I only just started playing my PS4 6 months ago!

Though I am buying a PS5 once I actually can, but that's more because there's BC for all the PS4 games. The improvements for the PS5 are interesting but in terms of what I care about are probably not going to actually change games very much. I could still be playing (and still do play old games) PS3 and PS2 games and I'd be pretty happy.
 
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rntongo

rntongo

Banned
Jan 6, 2020
2,712
Mister_X said:
But I thought he said it was without decompression? Or is that something different?
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Yes the decompression block is a separate processor on the SoC separate from the CPU. But the CPU could be used as well for decompression. So was wondering if it was the CPU doing it instead. Which is generally inefficient compared to using the decomp block.
 
Chettlar

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
Qudi said:
I can understand that some people want to to play the latest games without having to fork a few hundred dollars for a new machine, but its been 7 years ffs. Its time to move on. Just hearing Blueploint gushing about all they can achieve without having to worry any kind of limit makes me sad that we are at least 2 years away from being free of the curse.
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Yeah absolutely. I was mad back in 2013 when I found out we'd be getting netbook CPUs limiting games for at least 7 years.

Like look if I wasn't very lucky to be able to make a PS5 work right now, I'd be fine with sticking with the PS4 and working on my backlog. It just means more to choose from when I can upgrade. It's not like I'm going to be getting those new games anyway. Like hell, if the PS5 wasn't BC I wouldn't have even got one most likely. I got plenty of great games to play on PS4. I feel like people take consumerism to a massive extreme here. Like, chill. You're basically wanting the new thing just because it's new. What about all the vast amounts of fantastic games you missed because don't tell me you played em all. Let the people with the new toy get things that really take advantage of it. That's one aspect of "I buy a new console to play new games" I can actually get behind. If a PS4 version is possible then fine but don't let it hold back the new. And I ain't saying this because I have a PS5. I was saying this before some things turned around and I was able to afford one.
 
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