Basically when they revisit Cloud'dls memories of when Sephiroth went mad. Turns out he wasn't a frightening, threatening force, he was just a powerful idiot and emo.
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Sephiroth was actually a really well written villain in his original game (FF7 Spoilers)
- Thread starter Goodstyle
- Start date
Advent Children catered to rabid VII fanboys and girls who saw Sephiroth as some ultra cool bad boy and idolized that perception, ultimately the blame lies at their feet for completely misunderstanding the dude's character and messaging. However, the original game doesn't really explore this aspect of him explicitly, you are left to interpret it on your own. So it was easy for people to miss it if they didn't think really critically about it (seeing as, for a lot of us, it was our first linear narrative-driven RPG, if not first RPG period). Square Enix just took the ball and ran with it, and now Sephiroth is the Dark to Cloud's Light instead of being just another soldier (a special one, but still a subordinate to Shinra's corporate war machine), who took the wrong path because he didn't have the support network like Cloud did.
Maybe I'm insane and someone can prove me wrong, but I can't think of one thing post FF7 Sephiroth has done that's inconsistent with the character from the original games. I don't get why people think Advent Children changed anything about the characters either; Cloud struggling to connect with others is a key part of his "true" identity.
What really happened is that pop culture has flanderized these characters simply by more people recognizing them from KH and parodies than the original PS1 games.
I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. Sephiroth took over Jenova after falling in the lifestream with the head and was using Jenova parts to fuck with cloud. He essentially becomes a god at the peak of his self delusion.
What really happened is that pop culture has flanderized these characters simply by more people recognizing them from KH and parodies than the original PS1 games.
I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. Sephiroth took over Jenova after falling in the lifestream with the head and was using Jenova parts to fuck with cloud. He essentially becomes a god at the peak of his self delusion.
I could reduce 100 percent of all fictional super villains to "powerful idiots." Doesn't tell me anything.
He went "mad" after learning he was used as a scientific experiment while still in the womb and stripped from his mother upon birth. I don't think too many people would be happy to find that out.
Nice summary OP. I do agree Seph's build up and introduction was significantly more climatic and better written in the original than in Remake, but it seems they are going somewhere different with the character there so I'm willing to wait until his story is told before judging it too harshly.
I don't have as much of a problem with Seph's ongoing obsession with Cloud as some do though. Real life villains (a certain orange clown springs to mind) are utterly bonkers with obsessive tendencies towards those who defy them. Not to mention in Seph's case, he already has an obsessive personality, spending who knows how long pacing around in a basement reading dusty old books about science experiments. It would feel out of character for him not to toy with Cloud whenever he gets the chance.
I'd also argue that Sane Seph, from CC, is dam boring. He's a super solider, yay? Nothing really unique or interesting there. It's a change to see that side of him, but he later becomes a murderer and a sociopath and honestly doesn't deserve sympathy. I'm sure every real life villain has some tragedy in their past too, who gives a fuck. Not everyone with a history makes themselves into a villain; Seph chose to. Him being batshit insane in his appearances suits me fine.
Sorry that's a brain dump of some thoughts I've had on Seph lately. At the end of the day, how much can you do with a character that essentially died in the main story almost 25 years ago? The rivalry can easily live on in fighting games like Smash and Dissidia, it's just going to be pared down to light vs dark stuff out of necessity.
I don't have as much of a problem with Seph's ongoing obsession with Cloud as some do though. Real life villains (a certain orange clown springs to mind) are utterly bonkers with obsessive tendencies towards those who defy them. Not to mention in Seph's case, he already has an obsessive personality, spending who knows how long pacing around in a basement reading dusty old books about science experiments. It would feel out of character for him not to toy with Cloud whenever he gets the chance.
I'd also argue that Sane Seph, from CC, is dam boring. He's a super solider, yay? Nothing really unique or interesting there. It's a change to see that side of him, but he later becomes a murderer and a sociopath and honestly doesn't deserve sympathy. I'm sure every real life villain has some tragedy in their past too, who gives a fuck. Not everyone with a history makes themselves into a villain; Seph chose to. Him being batshit insane in his appearances suits me fine.
Sorry that's a brain dump of some thoughts I've had on Seph lately. At the end of the day, how much can you do with a character that essentially died in the main story almost 25 years ago? The rivalry can easily live on in fighting games like Smash and Dissidia, it's just going to be pared down to light vs dark stuff out of necessity.
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He read he was ripped from the womb and used for experiments then he decided he was the heir to the world and stuff, so he threw away everything he knew and was and turned into an emotionless avatar of a villain. Cool. Fine by me if it's fine by you.
So in one post you call him "emo," and in the literal next post you call him "emotionless."
Admit it. You really have no idea what you're saying, do you?
Well, if you want to nitpick, let me explain:
He acted all emo in the library scene. Afterwards, in the present time, he is an emotionless avatar that talks cryptically for no reason at all. C'mon. You understood what i meantz you're just trying very hard to go against what everyone is saying.
The thing I appreciate most now I'm older is
That it's never really made clear who the main antagonist is. Is it Sephiroth manipulating Jenova and the reunion theory? Or is Jenova the one causing and directing Sephiroth's madness to act as an incredibly powerful vessel to complete her mission to destroy Gaia?
It's turns out the Seph in FF7R is actually Cloud who fell into the lifestream at the end of FF7. However, his character flaws festered as he grappled with the spirit of Seph who was also in the lifestream, and so what we are seeing in FF7R is actually Cloud whom has been corrupted by his dark side and he took on the form of Seph because Cloud at his heart is a coward so he latched on and projects himself as the mythical, idealized warrior he envisioned Seph as.
You heard it here first.
I'm excited to replay FFVII with the new English fan translation, since the original English translation is, speaking frankly, its own worst enemy.
The Sephiroth bits that actually work are the parts of the narrative around him that aren't his actual dialog, as others in this thread have mentioned.
The Sephiroth bits that actually work are the parts of the narrative around him that aren't his actual dialog, as others in this thread have mentioned.
I still don't understand what you meant because what you said doesn't make sense.
"Basically when they revisit Cloud'dls memories of when Sephiroth went mad. Turns out he wasn't a frightening, threatening force, he was just a powerful idiot and emo."
Refers to him in the present time.
"He read he was ripped from the womb and used for experiments then he decided he was the heir to the world and stuff, so he threw away everything he knew and was and turned into an emotionless avatar of a villain."
Also refers to him in the present time.
Now, assuming you just have poor articulation and what you meant was, "He was emo prior to finding out, and he was emotionless after," I still don't know what that has to do with anything. Especially when you follow that up by saying "for no reason at all," when I just told you the reason.
"When they revisit Cloud's memories"... Are Cloud's memories from the present? Believe what you want to believe. Have a good day.
I think it's important to remember he basically dies, fuses with Jenova and becomes semi-omnipotent in-between those two points. That's what makes Seph such a good villian to me, he's already transcended his humanity before the game starts and is more like a force of nature.
I looked up Sephiroth from Kingdom Hearts 2 last night for nostalgia, and I soon wished that I hadn't.
Some things are better left forgotten. Like, Jesus, that dialogue. I can't believe there was ever a time I didn't cringe watching that shit play out.
it was always
the people harming the planet and the people taking advantage of the situation
Eh.
The Spectre of Sephiroth was what made him legendary. The fact that you're seeing glimpses of him, shadows of him. Even when you're talking to him it's not really him but just an echo.
Once you figure out his real plan it's like, "Really? That's some Chunni shit bruh".
But before then, until then, he's amazing. And that's what modern Square seems to fail to realize.
The Spectre of Sephiroth was what made him legendary. The fact that you're seeing glimpses of him, shadows of him. Even when you're talking to him it's not really him but just an echo.
Once you figure out his real plan it's like, "Really? That's some Chunni shit bruh".
But before then, until then, he's amazing. And that's what modern Square seems to fail to realize.
I agree with OP.
I'm not a literature major or anything. But his arc in the flashback makes sense to me. From the starting point, having memories tampered with, being raised in a completely inorganic environment, he never had a strong psyche. His motivations are in line with what he was told about his superiority and also with his desire of belonging, if he could not belong, than that must mean he was special, better... Entitled
Jenova is also playing an active role, so it's not just Sephiroth in a vacuum
I'm not a literature major or anything. But his arc in the flashback makes sense to me. From the starting point, having memories tampered with, being raised in a completely inorganic environment, he never had a strong psyche. His motivations are in line with what he was told about his superiority and also with his desire of belonging, if he could not belong, than that must mean he was special, better... Entitled
Jenova is also playing an active role, so it's not just Sephiroth in a vacuum
What kind of reveal wouldn't be considered "chuuni shit" by your standards? I'm just curious.
Is this not what he essentially is in Kingdom Hearts? In both games he appears in, he's an optional super boss that comes out of nowhere and destroys you.
I have a real problem with, "all or nothing" villains because their motivations are usually dumb or they don't understand how human beings work. Granted, in FF7, there's a lot of reason for this what with the collective atrophy of the reunion and Jenovah doing...what it do.
But like...the need to become the new Lavos because "the darkness in my mind demands that only I judge and control life in this universe" is so fucking chunni...
In KH2 he shows up before his boss battles...once? And it's kind of embarrassing in that he's only there for some smoldering fanservice.
It's kind of on par with KH writing and the fact that neither the disney characters or the final fantasy characters are important at all to the actual plot, so you can't make them too interesting, so most of them just sound real dumb.
I feel this thread is still misunderstanding Sephiroth. He's only delusional during the Nibelheim incident.
When Sephiroth reads over the Jenova Project reports in the basement of the Shinra Mansion he erroneously comes to the conclusion that he is a Cetra because Professor Gast erroneously thought Jenova was a Cetra. Sephiroth believes that humans got in the way of the Cetra and cowardly hid to survive while the Cetra sacrificed themselves to save the Planet from the Calamity from the Sky. He basically gets upset that humans have been using him as a tool for their purposes when his people are the rightful stewards of the Planet.
He only believes this for like a day.
After Cloud kills Sephiroth by tossing him into the Lifestream, Sephiroth becomes privy to all the knowledge of the entire Planet. He also fuses with Jenova's head, which is still alive. Sephiroth knows Jenova is the Calamity from the Sky and that he's half alien. His goals shift from reclaiming the Planet for the Cetra to basically completing Jenova's work; sucking up all the life on the planet in order to become a god. There's kind of a question of who's controlling who, since effectively Sephiroth is just doing what Jenova wants and it doesn't really fit with his old personality. Sephiroth was a nice guy who cared about the Planet and was humble enough to care about lowly grunts like Cloud, but now he wants to wound the Planet and rule over it as a god even though he now knows that Jenova is an alien.
Advent Children doesn't really change anything. Sephiroth isn't dead for the same reason he didn't die the first time Cloud killed him; his will is too strong to be absorbed into the Lifestream and Jenova's alien DNA is a foreign body in the bloodstream. Since being killed a second time and being rejected by the Planet itself, he's decided to kill the Planet by using Jenova's cells to choke the Lifestream and use its rotting shell as a vessel to find another planet to conquer. The memory stuff is just metaphorical.
When Sephiroth reads over the Jenova Project reports in the basement of the Shinra Mansion he erroneously comes to the conclusion that he is a Cetra because Professor Gast erroneously thought Jenova was a Cetra. Sephiroth believes that humans got in the way of the Cetra and cowardly hid to survive while the Cetra sacrificed themselves to save the Planet from the Calamity from the Sky. He basically gets upset that humans have been using him as a tool for their purposes when his people are the rightful stewards of the Planet.
He only believes this for like a day.
After Cloud kills Sephiroth by tossing him into the Lifestream, Sephiroth becomes privy to all the knowledge of the entire Planet. He also fuses with Jenova's head, which is still alive. Sephiroth knows Jenova is the Calamity from the Sky and that he's half alien. His goals shift from reclaiming the Planet for the Cetra to basically completing Jenova's work; sucking up all the life on the planet in order to become a god. There's kind of a question of who's controlling who, since effectively Sephiroth is just doing what Jenova wants and it doesn't really fit with his old personality. Sephiroth was a nice guy who cared about the Planet and was humble enough to care about lowly grunts like Cloud, but now he wants to wound the Planet and rule over it as a god even though he now knows that Jenova is an alien.
Advent Children doesn't really change anything. Sephiroth isn't dead for the same reason he didn't die the first time Cloud killed him; his will is too strong to be absorbed into the Lifestream and Jenova's alien DNA is a foreign body in the bloodstream. Since being killed a second time and being rejected by the Planet itself, he's decided to kill the Planet by using Jenova's cells to choke the Lifestream and use its rotting shell as a vessel to find another planet to conquer. The memory stuff is just metaphorical.
I though he was a great villain at the time, but I was 10.
I get annoyed that the character has now become entirely associated with his typically ridiculous final-form-of-the-big-bad character, instead of just as the "Evil Neo" he was throughout the game. Always shown with a wing and that music. It's just so overblown.
I get annoyed that the character has now become entirely associated with his typically ridiculous final-form-of-the-big-bad character, instead of just as the "Evil Neo" he was throughout the game. Always shown with a wing and that music. It's just so overblown.
I liked it better when you didn't actually see Sephiroth for most of the game. Like the movie Jaws, you would hear about the carnage and destruction he caused in his travels and it all led up to your first confrontation.
Yup.
Every single addition made to FF7 remake completely misunderstood what was so good about FF7
Every single addition made to FF7 remake completely misunderstood what was so good about FF7
I disagree with this. A lot of the additions showed a misunderstanding, but definitely not all of them. The entire Wall Market section was handled masterfully.
I played OG FF7 before the remake but I played both for the first time this year.
I think the problem is just that Sephiroth is at living legend status, and can't really live up to the hype anymore. Playing the OG, I could see how that process of building him up would've been effective before but having known how big of a deal he was, it didn't really do much for me. I can appreciate his status but I personally didn't really care for either of his interpretations.
I think the problem is just that Sephiroth is at living legend status, and can't really live up to the hype anymore. Playing the OG, I could see how that process of building him up would've been effective before but having known how big of a deal he was, it didn't really do much for me. I can appreciate his status but I personally didn't really care for either of his interpretations.
My fondest memories of Sephiroth as a villain are when it wasn't there, as people have already mentioned. Finding President Shinra with the huge blade in him. Following the trail of bloodstains out of Jenova's cell. Finding the Midgar zolom impaled. They all had a huge impact on me as a kid and petrified me for years.
... and all of that wasn't even Sephiroth, it was Jenova.
Maybe a decade ago, exploring more aspects of his personality would have been a dream come true for me. I can't say I particularly like him as a character anymore. Still good in the original game though, as you say OP (well, the idea of him is anyway, since it's not actually him... but you get what I mean).
... and all of that wasn't even Sephiroth, it was Jenova.
Maybe a decade ago, exploring more aspects of his personality would have been a dream come true for me. I can't say I particularly like him as a character anymore. Still good in the original game though, as you say OP (well, the idea of him is anyway, since it's not actually him... but you get what I mean).
This is why this is still my favorite FF game...beautiful, thank you for the enlightening post. I love Sephiroth even more now!
Yep. He's one of the best villains in gaming for reasons! Thanks for sharing.
I didn't know there was any doubt he's well written (besides the fact that nobody is well written or even coherent in the original translation). The duality between Sephiroth and Jenova, how much separation there is between them, how much each is in control, and even whether Jenova is sentient, is a pretty interesting thought experiment on free will and other behavioural concepts, certainly far above any of its contemporary RPGs.
I mean, you can obviously reduce any villain to sentences like these and make them sound silly, whether they're FFIV's space invader, FFV's literal tree, FFVI's clown, etc.
I mean, you can obviously reduce any villain to sentences like these and make them sound silly, whether they're FFIV's space invader, FFV's literal tree, FFVI's clown, etc.
Exactly this, and again, this part specifically is what I find so fascinating:
Did Sephiroth come to accept his fundamental inhumanity; his role as the inheritor of Jenova and killer of worlds, forcing the rest of Jenova to submit to his will? Did Jenova overwrite Sephiroth's mind with her own, wearing his personality like a mask? Is the truth somewhere in between? Is the very thinking of them as separate entities a mistake at that point? And so on.
Jenova is clearly inspired in both biology and aesthetics on John Carpenter's The Thing, and one thing I always found fascinating about that movie is how each separate part of the thing seemed to act with different levels of sapience depending on its size, how it was severed, or how it came to be. Some part could be all but animalistic and act against its own interests when hurt (most obviously the blood test, but also at other times), yet it could mimic multiple human intelligences and personal behaviours perfectly, and it's implied it's intelligent enough to have constructed its very advanced ship. As far as I can remember, it's never quite explained if splitting the thing generated new individuals with independent intelligence, thought (and potentially, goals), or if it was a whole that communicated in some unspecificed way but some of its parts became uncontrollable on their own. In that sense, I love FFVII's take and expansion on a very similar entity.
Damn it really seems as if no fun is allowed in this thread.
I mean yeah he's a slasher villain. But just like other slasher villains the more they appear the less complex they become. Jason, Freddy and the like all have suffered from horrific sequelitis but endure as well known horror icons because of the impressions they all left in the first place.
Essentially its difficult if not down right impossible to recapture the mystery and intrigue of the initial work but some people just want more of the creepy guy doing creepy things.
This was largely why I didn't have any problems with Seph's later portrayals (Cloud's is a different story) because its just him doing MORE of what he does best, talking shit and messing people up.
I mean yeah he's a slasher villain. But just like other slasher villains the more they appear the less complex they become. Jason, Freddy and the like all have suffered from horrific sequelitis but endure as well known horror icons because of the impressions they all left in the first place.
Essentially its difficult if not down right impossible to recapture the mystery and intrigue of the initial work but some people just want more of the creepy guy doing creepy things.
This was largely why I didn't have any problems with Seph's later portrayals (Cloud's is a different story) because its just him doing MORE of what he does best, talking shit and messing people up.
The original being this weird mix of Big Boss and a Lovecraft "protagonist" is such a specific and difficult line to toe that it doesn't particularly surprise me that almost no one can get it right. Beyond all the other reasons it's difficult, the Lovecraft part really does tend toward one-and-done types of characters. Like, you can only awaken to cosmic horror so many times before it becomes a bit old hat.
Literally any villain, heck any character, can be made to be dumb when you reduce everything this far.
I agree, I think Sephiroth has been reduced to; just looking cool, being Cloud's rival, and in the remake especially.. saying mysterious nonsense. How a lot of people remember him.
He wasn't even Cloud's rival in the original, Cloud was a failed 'clone' who Sephiroth thought very little of, and didn't even bother giving him a 'last boss speech'. Cloud's group were just pests to him, by the end.
Same with Aerith,
They reduce the characters to a set of patterns, how people remember them.
He wasn't even Cloud's rival in the original, Cloud was a failed 'clone' who Sephiroth thought very little of, and didn't even bother giving him a 'last boss speech'. Cloud's group were just pests to him, by the end.
Same with Aerith,
like the fans who say she should die in the new timeline to "make it even more heart breaking".. But it's less emotional when you milk it. In the original, she didn't die, just because it was sadistic.
They reduce the characters to a set of patterns, how people remember them.
No, it's actually terrible writing. As a teenager, it would be mindblowing. As an adult, with more life experience and more... maturity I guess? Well, as an adult, both Sephi and Cloud's arcs are... just ridiculous and, as I said, poorly written. About as interesting as a WWE feud.
I think that was quite smart at the time, because the villians couldn't be any more different.Major disappointment after the GOAT FF antagonist
Edit, well to be fair, you fight them both as angels but there different.
Nobody calls the literal tree in FFV the best villain in all gaming
Its absolutely fair to pick sephiroth apart as long as people use this hyperbole
Villains like Sephiroth work best, when they appear to be powerful and cool, thought the majority of the story, but then turn out be unlikeable, childish shitheads in the end.
A good example is Dragons and Dragons's adventure "Curse of Strahd". The villian Strahd appears as extremely, powerful, mysterious villan, who creates missary in his kingdom. But after you slowly unreveal his past, turns out he is just a pathetic incel and you wonder, why you were ever afraid of him.
The Last Jedi also tried to move Kylo Ren into this direction and Thanos also fits this role.
Of course, the problem with this kind of villian is, that you need to make them look extremely bad in the end. Some creators just don't want to do it, since those character sell very well. But if you don't unreveal the illusion, people may sympathize with the villan, your story has no conclusion and there ideals may swap into the real world: "Thanos did nothing wrong.".
A good example is Dragons and Dragons's adventure "Curse of Strahd". The villian Strahd appears as extremely, powerful, mysterious villan, who creates missary in his kingdom. But after you slowly unreveal his past, turns out he is just a pathetic incel and you wonder, why you were ever afraid of him.
The Last Jedi also tried to move Kylo Ren into this direction and Thanos also fits this role.
Of course, the problem with this kind of villian is, that you need to make them look extremely bad in the end. Some creators just don't want to do it, since those character sell very well. But if you don't unreveal the illusion, people may sympathize with the villan, your story has no conclusion and there ideals may swap into the real world: "Thanos did nothing wrong.".
I was laughing so hard at the first time Sephiroth shows up in remake. I was thinking "Oh we're just gonna do this HERE?"
