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Sensitive topic; tried to google but could not find an answer when and why the f*ck did white people start comparing people from Africa with monkeys?

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ADee

ADee

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Oct 25, 2017
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I read the thread where a BBC personality posted a couple with an ape comparing it to the royal baby. This sickens me but also got me curious, when did this shit start? I read that Socrates compared non Greece people with apes, and people from Greece were apes compared with the gods.
But when did Europeans (Asians too?) first make the comparison that the people from Africa were like monkeys/apes? I think that shit was made to dehumanize them so they could exploit the native people to feel no guilt of the crappy stuffs they did to them so I guess it was during the invasion of Africa?

When was it first mentioned in a written text? And why the f*ck is it still used today? I do understand that people can be assholes but with the information we have now even the worst people should have any ounce of empathy to not use that comparison.... Maybe I am naive but I can't believe that any human can be that evil and have no empathy at all in this day and age....

Most racist people are just selfish and ill informed (like "they are taking our jobs", "that religion is evil" or "they have different values where they are from") those thoughts I can understand even though it's a vile view on immigrants/colors/status. But de humanizing some humans to apes is much worse than vile.

As a person interested in history this intrigues me, as a human person this disgust me in so many ways.
 

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ADee said:
Most racist people are just selfish and ill informed (like "they are taking our jobs", "that religion is evil" or "they have different values where they are from") those thoughts I can understand even though it's a vile view on immigrants/colors/status. But de humanizing some humans to apes is much worse than vile.
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Nah they just hateful and looking for excuses.
 

Deleted member 23212

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Shugga said:
Nah they just hateful and looking for excuses.
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I think it's hard to grasp what racism even is. There are two forms essentially form how I see it: relative racism (are you considered racist compared to what is normal for society) and absolute racism (do you have racial prejudices). I believe that every single person has racial prejudices as a result of being socialized into racist systems and hierarchies, but then there are those who are further prejudiced and explicit about it than the norm.
 
SolVanderlyn

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It doesn't even make sense considering how literally everyone evolved from the same monkeys.

If you think about it it's essentially making fun of humans as a whole, you can trace that shit back to yourself too, so congratulations racists, you played yourself
 
EdibleKnife

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Due to centuries of considering us as animals. It's still used today because it's built into the very idea of bigotry . We've been treated and looked at by white bigots as a step down in humanity and a different species so they always and will continue to compare us to apes; things that look like "humans" but aren't quite.
 
Platy

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Oct 25, 2017
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SolVanderlyn said:
It doesn't even make sense considering how literally everyone evolved from the same monkeys.

If you think about it it's essentially making fun of humans as a whole, you can trace that shit back to yourself too, so congratulations racists, you played yourself
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It is more of a "you are subhuman -> what is almost human but less -> you are a primate -> gorillas are too strong -> you are a monkey"
 
The Antagonist

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SolVanderlyn said:
It doesn't even make sense considering how literally everyone evolved from the same monkeys.

If you think about it it's essentially making fun of humans as a whole, you can trace that shit back to yourself too, so congratulations racists, you played yourself
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I believe that's the point. My assumption is that they (racists) are inferring that Africans/African Americans literally stopped evolving and are subhuman, primates, etc.
 

John Doe

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Jan 24, 2018
3,443
I always thought it was a way for Europeans to justify slavery.

It's one thing to enslave one of your peers but when you don't consider your slave to be a person but mere chattel or less than human, it becomes easier to justify.

This always leads me to ask the question, "Why then did slave masters and other men rape their slaves who they considered to be no better than animals?"

But then I realize that racism isn't logical.
 
dragonchild

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Oct 26, 2017
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I just did a quick (and rather disturbing) GIS and holy hell, just about everyone was compared to apes/monkeys/chimpanzees at some point or other.
 
SolVanderlyn

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Massive Nights

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Oct 30, 2017
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I think it's a way to single a people out as subhuman and dehumanise them. The English used to do it the Irish too.
T6P4s7t.jpg

There's an article on it here:
https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/01/28/irish-apes-tactics-of-de-humanization/
 
DonMigs85

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me personally, I admit I can be racist or prejudiced not based on how a person looks or their genetics but how they behave, speak, how educated they are, etc.
 
Zoc

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Don't most apes have black skin? I mean, not to handwave the history of white racism, but there are simple reasons for things sometimes.
 
OP
OP
ADee

ADee

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OP
OP
ADee

ADee

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Zoc said:
Don't most apes have black skin? I mean, not to handwave the history of white racism, but there are simple reasons for things sometimes.
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Some does and some don't. Chimpanzees can either be dark or tan. It could be where it all started but I don't think so. It seems in modern days many used Darwinism (read in the article found in this thread) to explain that native people in Africa stopped evolving when the rest continued to evolve and therefor are much more related to chimpanzees than the Europeans.
 
Thequietone

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Yeah even the Irish were referred to as monkeys/apes at one point. Even my ethnicity just 160 years ago were called white n words. Now they don't. Racism is stupid and illogical.
 
Valcrist

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Probably day 1?

And why? Well, white people are historically terrible.
 
Vampirolol

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ADee said:
Some does and some don't. Chimpanzees can either be dark or tan. It could be where it all started but I don't think so. It seems in modern days many used Darwinism (read in the article found in this thread) to explain that native people in Africa stopped evolving when the rest continued to evolve and therefor are much more related to chimpanzees than the Europeans.
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I can confirm that's still something a lot of elder people think, at least here in Italy.
 
Watchtower

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EdibleKnife said:
Due to centuries of considering us as animals. It's still used today because it's built into the very idea of bigotry . We've been treated and looked at by white bigots as a step down in humanity and a different species so they always and will continue to compare us to apes; things that look like "humans" but aren't quite.
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Bit of an important bit I wanted to highlight because the comparison of certain peoples to monkeys/apes predates Darwin's theory of evolution.

Because there's no real logic or science to racism. It's all about looks and feelings in the most petty, juvenile, and sophomoric ways you could think of. "This monkey looks like a hairy human being but is clearly a stupid animal. And so are you."
 
Westbahnhof

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Elegant Weapon said:
Seriously? "Because most apes have black skin, it's simple comparison no racism involved"
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That's not what he said. Or at least not how I read it. I thought Zoc meant that while the history of racism is complex, the reason for this racist term isn't, it's simple. Simple and racist. He never called it "not racist", right? Maybe I'm being naive, but that's my understanding of what you quoted.

I disagree though, it's definitely about monkeys being kinda like humans, but clearly not humans, which means that it's the perfect choice for any person trying to dehumanise anyone. Skin colour is, as we see from the monkey comparisons used to insult the Irish, not the reason for the word choice.

Edit: I guess Idid misunderstand what Zoc wrote, seeing how he got banned. Sorry, I hope its clear that I'm not trying to downplay the racist connotations of the term
 
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Elegant Weapon

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Westbahnhof said:
Edit: I guess Idid misunderstand what Zoc wrote, seeing how he got banned. Sorry, I hope its clear that I'm not trying to downplay the racist connotations of the term
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No, it's not clear. When you try to correct my understanding of that blatantly shit post, it's clear you are trying to downplay racism.

"Maybe I'm naive" is the new "just asking questions", I see
 
Terminus

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Westbahnhof said:
That's not what he said. Or at least not how I read it. I thought Zoc meant that while the history of racism is complex, the reason for this racist term isn't, it's simple. Simple and racist. He never called it "not racist", right? Maybe I'm being naive, but that's my understanding of what you quoted.

I disagree though, it's definitely about monkeys being kinda like humans, but clearly not humans, which means that it's the perfect choice for any person trying to dehumanise anyone. Skin colour is, as we see from the monkey comparisons used to insult the Irish, not the reason for the word choice.

Edit: I guess Idid misunderstand what Zoc wrote, seeing how he got banned. Sorry, I hope its clear that I'm not trying to downplay the racist connotations of the term
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...I don't think you did. They probably should have expanded on what they wrote to ensure it wasn't misinterpreted, but I really don't think they were defending the comparison, just pointing out a simple potential origin for it. Catching a permaban for that is... excessive. It definitely had the effect of downplaying racism, but I really don't think they intended to actively promote a racist ideology.
 
Westbahnhof

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Elegant Weapon said:
No, it's not clear. When you try to correct my understanding of that blatantly shit post, it's clear you are trying to downplay racism.

"Maybe I'm naive" is the new "just asking questions", I see
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I'm sorry if I came across like that.
But I'm not "just asking questions", I'm explaining my understanding of the post, and prefacing it with the admission that I read it very different from you and realize that I may be wrong.
Accusing me of bad faith arguments and painting me as a racism defender for that is uncalled for.
 
ClamBuster

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ADee said:
"Interesting" so white European people used it against other white European people?
I don't know if that makes me feel better or worse about this subject...
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definitely in the UK

to call someone a monkey 'usually'... not always... but usually means you're calling them thick, or stupid, or idiotic

as in our less intelligent less refined ancestors
 
Elegant Weapon

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Terminus said:
...I don't think you did. They probably should have expanded on what they wrote to ensure it wasn't misinterpreted, but I really don't think they were defending the comparison, just pointing out a simple potential origin for it. Catching a permaban for that is... excessive. It definitely had the effect of downplaying racism, but I really don't think they intended to actively promote a racist ideology.
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Excessive? You guys really disgust me
"It definitely downplayed racism but I don't think that was the intention"

Racism always has a defense force


This thread is going to be full of bullshit
 
'3y Kingdom

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Darwinism has been used to justify a lot of horrible beliefs. Shaw wrote that Darwin's theory spread so quickly because it had something to appeal to everyone, including the racists, and since it could be (ab)used to reinforce people's biases with a superficially scientific imprimatur (even Shaw himself, though recognizing this, was a eugenicist).
 
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JAGMASK

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Jan 3, 2018
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ClamBuster said:
definitely in the UK

to call someone a monkey 'usually'... not always... but usually means you're calling them thick, or stupid, or idiotic

as in our less intelligent less refined ancestors
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Where I'm from in northern England we also use "cheeky monkey" to playfully describe anyone being a bit rude or mischievous.

Of course we still know about racially charged ape insults against black people that are used worldwide so it's more than problematic for people from Europe to feign ignorance on the subject.
 
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Boy Wander

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Elegant Weapon said:
Excessive? You guys really disgust me
"It definitely downplayed racism but I don't think that was the intention"

Racism always has a defense force


This thread is going to be full of bullshit
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The thread was about the origin of the comparison. The banned user gave a reason why the comparison exists. That doesnt mean the user is racist or downplaying racism. The user was simply explaining that the origins of racism can be in themselves simple.
 
OP
OP
ADee

ADee

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Elegant Weapon said:
This is literally a remix of the "what's a porch monkey?" thread from a few weeks ago.

OP reads like concern trolling "Maybe I'm naïve to be so evil"

Cmon
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Well I am just curious in a historic perspective. And being naive is not a good trait, but people usually say that to me and I try to do better.
I asked the question in no ill will intent, I think this thread so far has been civil.
I think to stop something you have to have the knowledge of how and when it started.

But yes I see myself as a person with very little knowledge, and sometime I ask stupid questions but that's because I'm just too curious about everything.
 
randompasserby

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CrunchyB said:
Indonesians call the proboscis monkey, "orang belanda", or "Dutch man".



As a Dutch man myself, I can see the resemblance.
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We don't. We really really don't.
It's called bekantan or just dutch monkey.
To call someone a monkey is just as much an insult here as anywhere else, no way it got its way into an official name of a rare endangered species that's even the mascot of a major theme park in Jakarta.
 
Terminus

Terminus

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Elegant Weapon said:
Excessive? You guys really disgust me
"It definitely downplayed racism but I don't think that was the intention"

Racism always has a defense force


This thread is going to be full of bullshit
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The brevity of the post allowed it to be reasonably interpreted in different ways. One of those reasonable interpretations was that it was downplaying racism. Another was that the poster was simply pointing out a very straightforward thought process that might drive the actions of shitty people. I think it was excessive to issue a permanent ban for that and to tag the post simply "racism" in a thread discussing the origins of a racist term, but I see it's now that the ban duration has been changed to "pending" which seems more reasonable.
 

Deleted member 27246

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randompasserby said:
We don't. We really really don't.
It's called bekantan or just dutch monkey.
To call someone a monkey is just as much an insult here as anywhere else, no way it got its way into an official name of a rare endangered species that's even the mascot of a major theme park in Jakarta.
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Why is it called a Dutch monkey though? It is the huge ugly nose isn't it?! Admit it! ;)
 

Lcs

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Aug 9, 2018
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I'm sorry for derailing, but I'm giggling at the thought of trying to find this through googling.

The search results you probably got must have been something else.
 
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