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bruhaha

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
4,122
WaPo is reporting that Wyden and Bernie are abandoning their plan B to tax large corps that pay less than $15 wage. This is due to the tax expected to be too complex and easy to avoid.


Senior Democrats are abandoning a backup plan to increase the minimum wage through a corporate tax penalty, after encountering numerous practical and political challenges in drafting their proposal over the weekend, according to two sources familiar with the internal deliberations.

On Thursday, the Senate parliamentarian said that the $15 an hour minimum wage included in President Biden's $1.9 trillion stimulus plan was inadmissible under the rules Democrats are using to pass the bill through the Senate.

After that decision, Senate Finance Chair Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) and Senate Budget Chair Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) said they would instead seek to add tax penalties on large corporations that fail to pay $15 an hour -- an idea viewed as less likely to be struck down by the parliamentarian and still helpful to some minimum wage workers.

But now senior Democrats -- including Wyden and Sanders -- are walking away from that backup effort as well, according to two people who asked to remain anonymous to share internal discussions.

Economists and tax experts have said that the tax outlined by Sanders and Wyden could be easily avoided and difficult to implement, with large corporations able to reclassify workers as contractors to avoid potential penalties. "I would be extremely nervous about trying out a brand new idea like this with virtually no vetting," Jason Furman, a former Obama administration economist, said on Twitter on Friday.

Wyden and Sanders were also expected to face an uphill battle in convincing the entire Senate Democratic caucus to support a proposal they would only have days to draft. The White House has also not indicated support for the corporate tax penalty idea.

The House on Saturday passed the stimulus bill, including the measure to increase the minimum wage to $15. It's not clear exactly how the Senate will proceed, although the White House has ruled out overturning the parliamentarian's ruling.

Democrats have said they will seek to include the $15 an hour minimum wage proposal in a separate legislative package to be advanced later in Biden's administration. It remained unclear how they would do so, or how they would overcome the obstacles that prevented them from securing the provision in the current stimulus plan.

White House spokeswoman Jen Psaki said on Fox News Sunday of Biden's commitment to raising the minimum wage: "We're going to have to spend the next several days or even weeks figuring out the what best path forward is, but he's committed to doing that."

Democrats' retreat from the backup plan leaves uncertain whether the stimulus plan will have any measures to directly hike the wages of minimum wage workers, a longstanding priority of the party's and President Biden. Democratic leaders agree they want to have Biden sign the stimulus into law before unemployment benefits expire for millions in mid-March, meaning there is little time for an alternative plan to emerge.

The U.S. has never gone longer without raising the federal minimum wage in the history of the eight-decade law.
 

Foltzie

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,799
Having companies In a rush to outsource is definitely something they wish to avoid.
 

Dozer

Member
May 30, 2019
889
Orlando, FL
Sigh. I said it in the other thread but this isn't worth going nuclear over (HR1 is though.) Come back to it in the fall.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
They gave it the good ol' college try. You have to appreciate the effort. Come back and try again later:
 

onyx

Member
Dec 25, 2017
2,528
The backup plan sounded like a lot of bs anyway. Companies could get around it and it would be easy for Republican states to fight it in court.

Make a stand alone bill and have Republicans come out against it

Yeah. Have it be a rider on something like Defense funding and dare people to vote against it.

Or this. This sounds like a great idea.
 

MinusTydus

The Fallen
Jul 28, 2018
8,199
Even if it had went through, it would have been rescinded in 2025 if Republicans win, so you'd never see the $15. If they were serious about this, they would ensure the process would be complete before the 2024 elections, instead of dragging this shit out over half a damn decade.

Get people used to earning $15/hr and it's much harder to take it away from them, instead of "you'll get $15... years from now."
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,708
New Orleans
It seemed like it'd be a mess to me. More paperwork and confusing tax codes. The type of Democratic proposal that is overly complex and often circumvented, which gains them little if any goodwill from the majority of the population.

Then failing to pass an actual minimum wage would still be used against them.

Hopefully we can return to a proper $15 minimum wage later in the year.
 

BLEEN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,890
Just pass the damn Rescue plan already.

And yeah, I called it as soon as it was announced – that companies would completely skirt this. Obvious as hell. Great idea on paper, terrible in practice.
 

Kard8p3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,272
lmaooo are you for real? They better at least try to keep pushing a better min wage.
 

Armadilo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,877
Like I heard somebody saying , Big Companies would just outsource min wage jobs to somewhere cheaper, Imagine ordering your fast food and the person taking your order is miles away, even in a different country, That's the future if Politicians don't try to have strict rules.
 

Book One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,823
If it would be easy for companies to avoid there's not much point to dragging on with it I would think
 

Shodan14

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,410
Even if it had went through, it would have been rescinded in 2025 if Republicans win, so you'd never see the $15. If they were serious about this, they would ensure the process would be complete before the 2024 elections, instead of dragging this shit out over half a damn decade.

Get people used to earning $15/hr and it's much harder to take it away from them, instead of "you'll get $15... years from now."
Has minimum wage ever been lowered before?
 

yogurt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,853
Yeah, this roundabout approach was bound to backfire. They should hit the $15 minimum wage with a must-pass bill, or after ~~NUKING THE FILIBUSTER~~ please god
 

BLEEN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,890
Has minimum wage ever been lowered before?
Nope.

They did try to get rid of the ACA tho which took years for people to see the benefits of and forced many Republicans to actually support it. It's one of the main reasons will still have it. Very close call with that.

Hard to take out good legislation.
 

MinusTydus

The Fallen
Jul 28, 2018
8,199
Has minimum wage ever been lowered before?
It may not have been lowered, but if the GOP regains The White House you can sure as hell bet it gets halted.

Ridiculous that the mythical $15 wouldn't even take effect until 2026. If you're serious about this, then don't move at a glacial pace. Make sure it is over and done with before the next election cycle.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
See I kind of figured that the reason this stuff getting snubbed was Republican control, but like, I thought the Dems had the upper hand now. Obviously I am mistaken, but at some point I gotta wonder if Democrats will ever give a shit about passing anything meaningful in the States. They're rich too, they need a working class, and they have definitive proof that pandering to the worst scum in the world gets the other party votes.

I watch with bated breath the future of your country. Maybe mine has some more securities in place but I have no doubt they'll be stripped away eventually. It's a capitalist's world.
 

Shodan14

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,410
It may not have been lowered, but if the GOP regains The White House you can sure as hell bet it gets halted.

Ridiculous that the mythical $15 wouldn't even take effect until 2026. If you're serious about this, then don't move at a glacial pace. Make sure it is over and done with before the next election cycle.
Didn't realize it was pegged that far away.

On a fun side note, the minimum gross hourly wage in EU ranges from $2.54 to $13.74 if you leave out the countries with no national minimum wage.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,635
Biden's only been in charge for a month and there's no reason it can't come back a ton of other ways. So long as voters keep pressuring it can come back for another attempt.
 
Oct 27, 2017
10,660
Like I heard somebody saying , Big Companies would just outsource min wage jobs to somewhere cheaper, Imagine ordering your fast food and the person taking your order is miles away, even in a different country, That's the future if Politicians don't try to have strict rules.
If that was feasible they would do it right now.
 

ZeroDotFlow

Member
Oct 27, 2017
928
Like I heard somebody saying , Big Companies would just outsource min wage jobs to somewhere cheaper, Imagine ordering your fast food and the person taking your order is miles away, even in a different country, That's the future if Politicians don't try to have strict rules.
What? This isn't going to happen, at least not any time soon for most work. The reason why is because companies have already tried outsourcing a lob of jobs and what inevitably ends up happening every time is that it ends up as a huge money sink and a failure. It's much harder to maintain standards when not only are you dealing with a massive time zone difference but also outside companies whose goal is to also be as cheap as possible.

Besides, it's better to get $15 now and deal with the consequences of companies trying that shit. If it is going to happen it'll happen regardless of the minimum wage.
 

yogurt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,853
See I kind of figured that the reason this stuff getting snubbed was Republican control, but like, I thought the Dems had the upper hand now. Obviously I am mistaken, but at some point I gotta wonder if Democrats will ever give a shit about passing anything meaningful in the States. They're rich too, they need a working class, and they have definitive proof that pandering to the worst scum in the world gets the other party votes.

I watch with bated breath the future of your country. Maybe mine has some more securities in place but I have no doubt they'll be stripped away eventually. It's a capitalist's world.
This thread is about them abandoning a complicated, roundabout tax-incentive to try to force companies to pay $15 an hour because a straight-up $15/hr wage hike was ruled ineligible by the Senate parliamentarian to be included in the type of bill they're passing (called a reconciliation bill). They're choosing to pass a reconciliation bill at this time because it is one of the few types of bills that Republicans cannot block.

The wage hike will almost certainly come back later either in a standalone bill or attached to some other type of must-pass bill that it CAN be included in. The last time the federal minimum wage was increased in the US it was attached to military funding.
 

turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,086
Phoenix, AZ
Ridiculous that the mythical $15 wouldn't even take effect until 2026. If you're serious about this, then don't move at a glacial pace. Make sure it is over and done with before the next election cycle.

Pretty sure most minimum wage changes are done in increments as far as I know, could be wrong though.

Here in AZ we raised ours from $8.05 to $12 starting in 2017, and reached $12 in 2020.
 

madstarr12

Member
Jan 25, 2018
2,567
Come back later. It wouldn't be seen until years from now anyway (unfortunately). COVID relief needs to happen ASAP.
 

DekuBleep

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,712
The thing that surprises me most is that these Senate D's didn't anticipate the parliamentarian's ruling against them enough to have a reasonable plan B.
 

MinusTydus

The Fallen
Jul 28, 2018
8,199
Pretty sure most minimum wage changes are done in increments as far as I know, could be wrong though.

Here in AZ we raised ours from $8.05 to $12 starting in 2017, and reached $12 in 2020.
And that was done all within ONE election cycle. If Biden loses, no one would ever see $15.

The increments need to be faster. Get it done by November 2024.
 

Deleted member 2379

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,739
The thing that surprises me most is that these Senate D's didn't anticipate the parliamentarian's ruling against them enough to have a reasonable plan B.

Biden said weeks ago he didn't expect it to make the cut.

it was entirely politics theater that delayed the actual bill because everyone knew it wouldn't stay in the Bill because of reconciliation rules.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,330
Like I heard somebody saying , Big Companies would just outsource min wage jobs to somewhere cheaper, Imagine ordering your fast food and the person taking your order is miles away, even in a different country, That's the future if Politicians don't try to have strict rules.

Companies are not going to outsource fast food. They'll automate the register and have a skeleton crew for the food.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,946
It was a weird hail mary move that would have as many downsides as upsides. It was especially strange since it didn't seem to be seriously considered until after the parliamentarian predictably shut down the straight wage hike and basically wasted a couple weeks for nothing. Regardless it should still be passed later this year.
And that was done all within ONE election cycle. If Biden loses, no one would ever see $15.

The increments need to be faster. Get it done by November 2024.
It's crazy unlikely that the wage increase would be halted or reversed were Republicans to get a trifecta in 2025. Much like ACA it will become steadily more popular once it's passed into law and begins to put more money in people's paychecks. The ACA was a very popular piece of legislation yet it was a complicated mess that made it comparatively easy for the GOP to try and turn it into a boogeyman. Those weaknesses were the only reason we ended up in a place where it could get as many as 49 votes in favor of the skinny repeal and that still failed. Now imagine them trying to do that with a far simpler, far more popular bill. Obviously it's not impossible but the odds that they actually have the guts to go through with it are ridiculously slim.
 

skullmuffins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,426
Even if it had went through, it would have been rescinded in 2025 if Republicans win, so you'd never see the $15. If they were serious about this, they would ensure the process would be complete before the 2024 elections, instead of dragging this shit out over half a damn decade.

Get people used to earning $15/hr and it's much harder to take it away from them, instead of "you'll get $15... years from now."
you realize it would've been up to $14 by 2024. you make it sound like folks would get nothing because republicans would repeal it before anything substantial happened. it'd probably be too politically toxic to repeal unless they were right and people in fucksville were losing jobs left and right because their poor towns couldn't afford to pay people decent wages
 

TalonJH

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,878
Louisville, KY
See I kind of figured that the reason this stuff getting snubbed was Republican control, but like, I thought the Dems had the upper hand now. Obviously I am mistaken, but at some point I gotta wonder if Democrats will ever give a shit about passing anything meaningful in the States. They're rich too, they need a working class, and they have definitive proof that pandering to the worst scum in the world gets the other party votes.

I watch with bated breath the future of your country. Maybe mine has some more securities in place but I have no doubt they'll be stripped away eventually. It's a capitalist's world.

Republicans aren't always the only only problem that blocks progress but know that Democrats don't really have the upper hand you think they do. I believe the House is 50/50 and the Senate is 222/212 Assuming that every Democratic actually votes with their party(because they rare actually get republican votes). Everything is still going to be a battle and it sucks.
 

maxxpower

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,950
California
Minimum wage increase is most definitely worth nuking the filibuster for, anybody who says it isn't is fucked up to be honest. It's not worth delaying this relief bill but they need to come back to this and just nuke the goddamn filibuster already.