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MPrice

Alt account
Banned
Oct 18, 2019
654
Yeah, I think it would be waaay more helpful to avoid branding confusion, but also like... the conversation should change. I don't think we should *have* to call it "After School Programs," because a lot of those aren't free, they're not run by the school system (But usually by non-profit 3rd parties like the YMCA, local churches, or sometimes for-profit corporation), and there often isn't officially an element of public school curriculum.

I think people see "Extending school days to 6PM!" and think of it like ... children are going to be in school doing school work from 8am to 6pm and underpaid teachers are teaching that whole time, but I think the program more is providing funding for schools that need it to keep their doors open until 6PM and offer after-school programming... Whether it's just like, a study hall, or activities, or maybe some mix of soft classes I think that's usually left up to the school boards / school committees to decide, but the bill is for the funding of it.

For what it's worth, I think it'd be under-funded at this price point. But... it's better than nothing, which it is now.

I think there was a strong kneejerk because people see "Kamala Harris" (who many of us now think is like an evil nazi or w/e) and then they see "Extending school day to 6PM" and just assume the worst.. e.g., the posts describing school as prison and how Harris is trying to lock children up in prison, or the other take of "why would teachers want to spend more time with bad kids" (which I think is a borderline racist remark, but w/e). When the reality is that many kids are effectively made homeless from 2PM to 8PM because they have nowhere to go, nowhere to do their homework, left out in the cold, and it's what contributes to generational poverty. Parents either have to quit their jobs, work weird hours, or hope to have a grandparent, aunt, etc., who can help watch tons of kids... The current system keeps people poor and makes it hard for children to learn and grow. Like, my wife's students don't have computers or the internet at home, their only time to use a computer is at school but they don't have a class in her school that just lets kids learn how to use a computer, and so the little time they do get on the computer for doing writing assignments, or w/e, my wife (an english teacher) usually has to teach the basics of using a computer... typing, copy and paste, opening and saving files, things like that. It'd be great if there was a funded program from 2-6 where they had an option to learn those things, or just do homework in a building that has heat and electricity.

The responses in this thread are really sad because I think most people would rather dunk on Kamala Harris than actually pause and think about something thoughtfully, or even SHOCK click through to read the article instead of just the thread title... I don't even like/support Harris either, but there's a lot of really bad, uninformed, ignorant takes. I think there's a lot of entitled, privileged people in this thread from white suburban communities who thought of school as a burden to be suffered through so that they could go to college and get a good job.


I mean I think most people can understand the issue but this just doesn't seem like good legislation or a good strategy to solve it. I think it is in incredibly bad taste to even ask teachers to volunteer for more work without fixing their wages first. Or to give money to hire even more staff with addressing the elephant in the room first.

Like maybe just maybe if teachers were paid decently to begin with, they would volunteer on their own to stay a little extra and help students with no where to go. I know we had plenty of those when I was going thru. But no, many teachers have to go into a second job so they can actually feed their families and not just pay the rent.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
Why until 6pm? That makes no sense.

however, doing like an 8am to 4:30 school day would make sense.

Most kids are capable of chilling for a half hour or so and most parents with 9-5 jobs would be able to swing like a 8:30-4:30 work day.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,932
I mean I think most people can understand the issue but this just doesn't seem like good legislation or a good strategy to solve it. I think it is in incredibly bad taste to even ask teachers to volunteer for more work without fixing their wages first. Or to give money to hire even more staff with addressing the elephant in the room first.

Like maybe just maybe if teachers were paid decently to begin with, they would volunteer on their own to stay a little extra and help students with no where to go. I know we had plenty of those when I was going thru. But no, many teachers have to go into a second job so they can actually feed their families and not just pay the rent.

Did you click the article to read it before posting? Because Harris' is also proposing a $13,000/year average pay raise to teachers. While the specifics aren't out on this legislation, just basically a press release, there would also be a pay increase for teachers who do take this extra time. Maybe $13,000 isn't enough, who knows, my wife is an inner city public high school teacher and hell yeah, we'd love a pay increase like that, but even if $13,000 more is still underpaid, it's better than $0.

Nobody is arguing that teachers shouldn't be paid, least of all Harris. As far as I know, she's the only candidate running for President who has actually put a proposal out to increase teacher salaries. I'm sure other candidates like Warren, Biden, Sanders, Buttigieg, etc., also support expanding teacher salaries nationally, although I don't think they've put forward any proposal for that either, or if they have, they're not getting criticized for it like Harris is in this thread.
 

MPrice

Alt account
Banned
Oct 18, 2019
654
Did you click the article to read it before posting? Because Harris' is also proposing a $13,000/year average pay raise to teachers. While the specifics aren't out on this legislation, just basically a press release, there would also be a pay increase for teachers who do take this extra time.

Nobody is arguing that teachers shouldn't be paid, least of all Harris. As far as I know, she's the only candidate running for President who has actually put a proposal out to increase teacher salaries.


I went straight to the text of this bill, which is out and I've already posted very early in this thread(probably should be added to the OP), which mentions no such thing. The only thing this bill mentions in regards to teacher pay is that they can't be paid less for volunteering for this which is garbage.
 

Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,215
Why until 6pm? That makes no sense.

however, doing like an 8am to 4:30 school day would make sense.

Most kids are capable of chilling for a half hour or so and most parents with 9-5 jobs would be able to swing like a 8:30-4:30 work day.
That's really not the case, especially in cities with horrible traffic.

I went straight to the text of this bill, which is out and I've already posted very early in this thread(probably should be added to the OP), which mentions no such thing. The only thing this bill mentions in regards to teacher pay is that they can't be paid less for volunteering for this which is garbage.

Her salary proposal is in the article and came before this.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,932
I went straight to the text of this bill, which is out and I've already posted very early in this thread(probably should be added to the OP), which mentions no such thing. The only thing this bill mentions in regards to teacher pay is that they can't be paid less for volunteering for this which is garbage.

Harris' is proposing this as part of her presidential platform, and the expanded school day program is part of legislation she's endorsing as a senator.

The link in the OP has a link to Harris' campaign:


In education proposals released during her 2020 campaign for the presidency, Harris said she'd bump the average teacher salary up by $13,500.



States will receive the largest federal investment in teacher pay in history—enough to increase pay for nearly every teacher in America and entirely close the teacher pay gap.
  • Under our plan, the average teacher in America will receive a $13,500 raise, the equivalent of a 23 percent increase in base pay.
  • The Department of Education will work with state education agencies to set a base salary goal for beginning teachers in every state. The goal will account for the average salary earned by similarly educated professionals in the state starting out their careers. It will also increase based on years in the classroom and advanced qualifications to keep up with higher wages earned by similarly experienced professionals. Under our plan, states and school districts will increase every teacher's salary until, at a minimum, they meet the goal.
  • States, districts, and schools will be required to use funds to increase base teacher pay, not replace existing education funding.
  • Funding will allow states to fully close the 11 percent total compensation gap that accounts for benefits and the larger gap that exists when just comparing wages.
 

Alucrid

Chicken Photographer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,404
Why until 6pm? That makes no sense.

however, doing like an 8am to 4:30 school day would make sense.

Most kids are capable of chilling for a half hour or so and most parents with 9-5 jobs would be able to swing like a 8:30-4:30 work day.

i feel like the kind of jobs these parents are working where they need this program probably aren't amenable to shifting your entire schedule back half an hour
 

魑魅魍魎

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,665
I support this bill. I'm tired of tons of kids flooding the transit system when I go home. Yes I know this is a selfish reason.
 

MPrice

Alt account
Banned
Oct 18, 2019
654

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,932
Why until 6pm? That makes no sense.

however, doing like an 8am to 4:30 school day would make sense.

Most kids are capable of chilling for a half hour or so and most parents with 9-5 jobs would be able to swing like a 8:30-4:30 work day.

How does after school programs until 6PM make "no sense" while after school programs till 4:30 "makes sense." Like, I get if you prefer 4:30 over 6 for some reason, but how does one make no sense and one makes sense? if anything, the 6PM makes more sense because for the most part many people work 9-5 which would be adequate amount of time for parents to pick up small children from school in that 5-6PM window.

I also don't thiink "most kids are capable of chilling for a half hour." Maybe older kids, 14-17 or something, but ... I don't think a 6 or 7 year old is capable of "chilling for a half hour" alone.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,932
Congress appropriates funds, she's a current Senator. Why not prepose that increase now instead of this bill?

Because sometimes one piece of legislation addresses one issue, and another later piece of legislation addresses another issue, and linking two issues on a single piece of legislation can make both more difficult to pass. This is how congress works.

I don't like Harris for President either, but this is bitch-eating-crackers syndrome. Literally finding things to complain about, even when they're wrong, finding NEW things to complain about because it's not done in some utopian vision where Harris is God Queen and can appropriate funds however she wants.
 

MPrice

Alt account
Banned
Oct 18, 2019
654
Because sometimes one piece of legislation addresses one issue, and another later piece of legislation addresses another issue, and linking two issues on a single piece of legislation can make it more difficult to pass.

I don't like Harris for President either, but this is bitch-eating-crackers syndrome. Literally finding things to complain about, even when they're wrong, finding NEW things to complain about because it's not done in some utopian vision where Harris is God Queen and can appropriate funds however she wants.
There's a finite amount of money that congress has and will get to allocate to Education. You can't dismiss people wanting to see it spent better just because you like Harris or this bill or whatever the hell your thing is.

It has nothing to do with me liking her. If she was on a ballot against Trump I would select her without hesitation.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,908
For what it's worth, Harris's first proposed legislation as an official candidate was for expanding teacher pay. The very first one.

https://kamalaharris.org/issue/raising-teacher-pay/

There's a finite amount of money that congress has and will get to allocate to Education. You can't dismiss people wanting to see it spent better just because you like Harris or this bill or whatever the hell your thing is.

It has nothing to do with me liking her. If she was on a ballot against Trump I would select her without hesitation.

Albatross has made it pretty clear that they're not defending Harris. Whether or not we try to see the sense in a candidate's proposed legislation should have nothing to do with whether or not we already like that candidate.
 

Chiaroscuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,685
I understand the intent - it is indeed challenging for parents to juggle school pickup/drop off and work schedules.
But man, my daughter would be pissed if this happens. She has so much homework now as it is.

Use the extra hours in school to allow the students to do their homework at school, eliminating it at home.
 

Surakian

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
10,792
Or maybe we should offer more and subsidize after-school/child care programs that develop extracurricular skills and talents, eliminate the excess of homework sent home with kids that keeps them up until late at night completing it sometimes, and/or shorten the workday?

I get the reasoning and good intent behind this but teachers are already struggling and students don't want to be at school ALL DAY. There'd be more unhappy, depressed, overworked students and teachers with this.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
Use the extra hours in school to allow the students to do their homework at school, eliminating it at home.
Hell at that point why have that extra work to start with? Seems better to rework how we teach rather than simply adding more of the same work for more hours of the day. Better investment would be in maximizing teaching/learning efficacy & efficiency within the already allotted hours with catered work for individual students.
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
17,124
Montreal
Homework should be abolished

School should start 1 hour later, not earlier.
School should end by 2:45PM the latest.

Kids should be kids, not drones sitting at a desk for hours on end
 
Last edited:

Chiaroscuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,685
Hell at that point why have that extra work to start with? Seems better to rework how we teach rather than simply adding more of the same work for more hours of the day. Better investment would be in maximizing teaching/learning efficacy & efficiency within the already allotted hours with catered work for individual students.

I am not in US so maybe I shouldn't comment about your education system. But the difference between school time and parents working hours is s real worldwide issue.

Here is mandatory school hours is half day (4-5 hours a day just one period of the day). But private schools usually offer full day schedule, because they are bilingual (Portuguese/English, plus Spanish as a foreign language). The schedule goes from 8:45 AM to 5:00 PM with a launch breach (school also provides meals). Considering that the buses take the students one hour earlier, my children went out 7:45 and came back at 6:00PM which works great for my single working father schedule.

Besides classes in English, the extra time is spend in extracurricular activities like sports (twice the amount of regular school) and "homework/research time" twice a week. They don't have homework at all, everything is fine supervised at school.

I know that is a private (and costly) school and may not work for a public system (our public system is really, really bad).
 

MPrice

Alt account
Banned
Oct 18, 2019
654
For what it's worth, Harris's first proposed legislation as an official candidate was for expanding teacher pay. The very first one.

https://kamalaharris.org/issue/raising-teacher-pay/



Albatross has made it pretty clear that they're not defending Harris. Whether or not we try to see the sense in a candidate's proposed legislation should have nothing to do with whether or not we already like that candidate.
Well yeah I know better than to look a gift horse in the mouth. I don't care if people I don't like do good things, if that was even the case but I don't particularly dislike Kamala.

This just ain't it for me.
 

moonie

Member
Oct 25, 2019
237
A stupid idea from a stupid person. Sorry Kamala Harris, I don't think you thought this through