Senator Dianne Feinstein is taped being snide to children asking about the Green New Deal

[hydrophilic attack]

That means any future plans for housing/development/infrastructure needs to price in the fact they will have to rapidly reduce their emissions under law. Which means private companies will need to do cost assessments on which projects are even worth while under these new restrictions, which means cutting payroll for all the projects that get scrapped which means people are no longer employed.

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some ways of doing things would become more expensive and others would become more cheap. yes, companies would have to take that into account, that's the fucking point

any jobs lost from businesses not able to adapt to a carbon free future would be covered by other businesses that suddenly become viable in such a future and the public jobs programme part of the bill

 

[Autodidact]

A reliable vote on the Iraq War, Patriot Act, drug war escalation and the death penalty until last year sure.

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Hint: those are part of why she's not my favorite person and probably not liberal enough for California.

Hint 2: those things you mentioned weren't Democratic initiatives. Doesn't absolve her for voting for them, but I was saying that she's never blocked or diluted Democratic legislation when we have power and has been very good on some issues, like guns.

 

[Deleted member 14459]

Again, the GND wants to decarbonized the entire US economy.

So stating that "it might take longer" is more of a "yea, no shit" considering the feasibility of over turning every single industry in the US to have near zero emissions in a decade.

Creating policy we know is unworkable and unfeasible is bad. I'm not sure how many times I need to say this.

What's wrong with crafting policy that is forward in it's goals, forward in the challenges, forward in it's presentation of realistic timescales?

If everyone knows the 2030 target of the GND is bullshit then what's the point of even having it as a target?

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it is not a bullshit target - but like all policy targets it does not factor in the real politik of a broken sustem:

Prof. Mark Jacobson, has acknowledged that 2030 is technologically feasible but he has added 20 years to reflect political and economic challenges. However, adding an additional 20 years to the timetable based on expected political obstructionism unfortunately makes it easier for politicians to delay urgently needed action by falsely claiming that we still have over 30 years

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[Deleted member 8561]

it is not a bullshit target - but like all policy targets it does not factor in the real politik of a broken sustem:

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I didn't say his target about 1.5c was bullshit, I said the GND's target of achieving zero emissions in all sectors of the US economy is bullshit.

 

[Autodidact]

It's questionable how true this is given Trump's recent victory. By many metrics we were enjoying a multi-year economic high and Trump voters decided to piss in it anyway.

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I mean, it kind of was related to economics. Times were good, so people felt comfortable voting on non-economic factors... such as their own racism.

When there's a recession or crisis of some sort, they come crawling back to Democrats because you can't eat racism. That's been the pattern for a while now. Carter, Clinton, Obama all got elected after the GOP imploded in some way.

 

[Deleted member 3896]

Oh I realized that you're trying to make the absence of the OP more nefarious

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Let me ask you then. What's the purpose in creating this sort of thread if, over 19 pages, the OP can't be bothered to engage in any discussion whatsoever?

 

[samoyed]

I mean, it kind of was related to economics. Times were good, so people felt comfortable voting on non-economic factors... such as their own racism.

When there's a recession or crisis of some sort, they come crawling back to Democrats because you can't eat racism. That's been the pattern for a while now. Carter, Clinton, Obama all got elected after the GOP imploded in some way.

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So, what you're saying is by inducing an economic crisis with the GND's proposals to decarbonize our industry, we can guarantee our electoral victory?

If it seems like the United States electorate votes more sensibly in times of economic uncertainty, then it behooves us to main a constant atmosphere of economic unease, lest they feel too comfortable and allow their racism to show in the voting booth.

TheLostBigBoss

The reactionary backlash to Harris is going to be worse than it was for Obama. Going by your fear of reactionary blow backs, it seems you have to vote for Biden, who has the highest possibility of causing Trumpers to not freak out in to 4 to 8 years.

 

[SlothmanAllen]

I didn't say that, I said if you actually implement anything in the GND while knowing it's not actually realistic all you'll do is get a bunch of pissed off electorates who will instantly vote your party out and put a party forward who will kill the GND



It doesn't take a genius to see the repercussions of making every single sector of the US economy zero emission in a 10 year span.

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I was reading Aviation Week today and they had an article about the Green New Deal and how within a supplementary FAQ is talked about the US removing the need for air travel within 10 years lol!

 

[Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric]

It's was condescending and dismissive (which isn't anything new for Feinstein) but she's a (mostly) useful ally and her political career is no doubt coming to a conclusion relatively soon given her age. She's not nearly as progressive as many would like but she's also a relic of an older time and looking at her career holistically, she's done enough good to be forgiven for this type of snotty transgression.

 

[Deleted member 22490]

Let me ask you then. What's the purpose in creating this sort of thread if, over 19 pages, the OP can't be bothered to engage in any discussion whatsoever?

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Posting a current event. They dont need to participate in it for it have some value.

 

[Frozenprince]

Posting a current event. They dont need to participate in it for it have some value.

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Plus you can literally just ping them to the thread to ask. Looks like the dude or dudette just likes to post news threads.

 

[intheflorsh]

Let me ask you then. What's the purpose in creating this sort of thread if, over 19 pages, the OP can't be bothered to engage in any discussion whatsoever?

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Obviously this thread is a Russian PsyOp, duh doy

 

[Deleted member 8561]

TheLostBigBoss

The reactionary backlash to Harris is going to be worse than it was for Obama. Going by your fear of reactionary blow backs, it seems you have to vote for Biden, who has the highest possibility of causing Trumpers to not freak out in to 4 to 8 years.

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If you implement the GND you're going to do the equivalent of sawing off the US economy. Drastic actions like the GND are going to have major repercussions.

I'm not afraid of blow backs, I'm explaining to you that the GND as defined by it's goals will cause immense blow back if it's actually enacted in policy. As in, if you are true in realizing it's goals, you will most likely destroy any type of progressive movement, party, or hope of dealing with Climate Change for at least the next decade.

So if you want to take that risk on a proposal you have admitted is not based in any reality in terms of achieving it's goals, go ahead and support it.

As for me, I would rather find policy that realizes the situation we are in and the limitations of implementing it in a democratic framework.

 

[Autodidact]

If it seems like the United States electorate votes more sensibly in times of economic uncertainty, then it behooves us to main a constant atmosphere of economic unease, lest they feel too comfortable and allow their racism to show in the voting booth.

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Yes, maintaining a state of constant uncertainty would be great for people's health, welfare, and security, I'm sure. No problem there.

American politics is cyclical. Republicans are moronic white supremacists who can't govern. When they take office, they fuck things up because they try to fuck over brown and black people and further enrich billionaires simultaneously.

When Democrats take office, they clean up the GOP's mess and try to help everyone.

However, racist white voters see brown and black people getting help and then boot Democrats from office again.

That's been the pattern post-1968, so unless you truly want Democrats not to try to fix things or help people when they gain power, that's what's going to happen.

The key is to use our windows of total control to go HAM, knowing we'll lose at least some of it in two years, and to take measures to dilute the power of racist white voters, such as adding new states for the Senate, expanding voting rights and ballot access, expanding the SCOTUS and lower courts, granting amnesty and citizenship to as many people as possible, and instituting non-partisan House maps in as many states as possible.

 

[samoyed]

I'm not afraid of blow backs, I'm explaining to you that the GND as defined by it's goals will cause immense blow back if it's actually enacted in policy.

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Supporters of the GND are generally aware of this you don't need to explain it to them/us. In general, we think it's a risk worth taking given the timetables.

As in, if you are true in realizing it's goals, you will most likely destroy any type of progressive movement, party, or hope of dealing with Climate Change for the next decade.

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We're less pessimistic on this. Given the "realities" of US politics, we, uh, already experience this "destroy any type of progressive movement, party, or hope of dealing with Climate Change for the next decade". We're in this mess partially because this is already true, so what you sound like here is "if you fail, it's going to be mostly the same stuff as usual where progress gets dialed back a decade or two".

It was true in the 1960s and true in the 1980s and true in the 2000s and will probably remain true in the 2020s.

The key is to use our windows of total control to go HAM, knowing we'll lose at least some of it in two years, and to take measures to dilute the power of racist white voters, such as adding new states for the Senate, expanding voting rights and ballot access, expanding the SCOTUS and lower courts, granting amnesty and citizenship to as many people as possible, and instituting non-partisan House maps in as many states as possible.

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The GND would be going HAM. Not doing the GND would be not going HAM.

I'm entirely fine with (legislatively) freezing Republicans out of the process entirely if that's what it takes.

 

[Deleted member 14459]

I didn't say his target about 1.5c was bullshit, I said the GND's target of achieving zero emissions in all sectors of the US economy is bullshit.

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Jacobson's research quoted in my post is on the feasibility of clean energy transition by the year 2030...

 

[Frozenprince]

Supporters of the GND are generally aware of this you don't need to explain it to them/us. In general, we think it's a risk worth taking given the timetables.

We're less pessimistic on this. Given the "realities" of US politics, we uh, already experience this "destroy any type of progressive movement, party, or hope of dealing with Climate Change for the next decade". We're in this mess partially because this is already true, so what you sound like here is "if you fail, it's going to be mostly the same stuff as usual where progress gets dialed back a decade or two".

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"Don't be too far in your efforts to destroy the system entirely, then the system might get mad at you"

 

[Reyes]

Climate Change is dangerous as every degree matters in how much destruction, pain and loss we will experience as a world

Even limiting it to below 2C or 3C whatever its all about limiting the damage we do to the world no matter what we will experience damage but we can control to an extent just how bad it can be.

Feinstein proposal isn't great, its mostly just sticking to Paris and Regs Obama used Executive orders when he couldn't pass much of anything due to seneate and shit, we need to go stronger thats why people critique Feinstein it needs to do more and does far to little.

We can go deeper we should go deeper, the GND is good (again people keep bringing up stuff from the old FAQ of it) its not perfect hell energy gurus like Jessie that like and support the green new deal critique it for/even though its language now is more supportive of stuff like hydro electric and Nuclear, which is why people like AOC and Ed are working on it, why people like Harris have backed it, why people like Warren say to remove all fossil fuel subsidies, etc.

We can go deeper and do stuff like what said in the Green New Deal.

GND isn't also about getting to carbon neutrel but also helping and adapting our society to better deal with Climate Change.

I was reading Aviation Week today and they had an article about the Green New Deal and how within a supplementary FAQ is talked about the US removing the need for air travel within 10 years lol!

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Not really and it doesn't, GND wants to decarbonize the airline industry and even the proposal states stuff like shipping (airlines and shit) and steel are difficult to decarbonize.

Which is why so too in the GND funds will go to investing in the research, development, and manufacturing capacities to decarbonize them even further and more then VCs. We have some practises from Cement already that look promising.

 

[Deleted member 3896]

Posting a current event. They dont need to participate in it for it have some value.

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Yeah. I guess giving a stage for people to say the ends justify the means when it comes to disinformation campaigns and a platform for people to guzzle down Project Veritas style edits is a sort of value.

 

[Deleted member 8561]

"Don't be too far in your efforts to destroy the system entirely, then the system might get mad at you"

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When you live in a political reality and don't expect a socialist revolution to happen I guess that's just how you tend view things

 

[Deleted member 22490]

Yeah. I guess giving a stage for people to say the ends justify the means when it comes to disinformation campaigns and a platform for people to guzzle down Project Veritas style edits is a sort of value.

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The conversation between Samoyed, LostBigBoss, Autodidact, frozenprince and Rupeta is pretty valuable

 

[Frozenprince]

When you live in a political reality and don't expect a socialist revolution to happen I guess that's just how you tend view things

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Considering that your political reality has accomplished nothing and done nothing but make people more beaten down and pissed off then yes.

And no, within the confines of the electoral system you can still implement mass change, even the US has done it before. The system as constructed in regards to these issues is a bloated zombie that can't shamble much farther.

But yeah whatever I'm just a moron who doesn't live in pragmatic reality with compromise and blah blah blah.

Broad society and policy change isn't incremental, to attempt to make it so just pushes the issue down the road for people to deal with it when things are on the precipice. If a politician or political party RAN on being proactive on these issues then they'd gain traction. People don't like insurance companies, people don't like big oil. They like the security but mostly they fear that there will be nothing to catch them when these things go away. You need to convince them that there will be. That's what these policies are for.

 

[Deleted member 43084]

what is even going on in this thread

 

[Deleted member 8561]

If you want to pretend the Paris Accord "has accomplished nothing" then go right ahead. I'm not gonna be able to convince you that the first ever global cooperation to deal with climate change was a big fucking deal or something.

 

[Deleted member 14459]

As for me, I would rather find policy that realizes the situation we are in and the limitations of implementing it in a democratic framework.

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and that's Feinstein's proposal or something even more pragmatic?

 

[Deleted member 8561]

and that's Feinsteins proposal or something even more pragmatic?

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I don't think I ever said anything about supporting Feinsteins framework

But if you want to equate the current Paris Accord and Obama's previous steps as "Feinsteins Framework", then I would say what I've been saying for years.

The Paris Agreement is specifically designed to increase in aggression of emissions cuts as time goes on to meet initial goals, and Obama's executive actions were bandaids due to a congress that would block everything he did, so they are inherently sub-par.

If I had "my way" it would be leaning way more in the direction of the GND

 

[samoyed]

When you live in a political reality and don't expect a socialist revolution to happen I guess that's just how you tend view things

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The likelihood of a "socialist revolution" or any kind of revolution at all is proportional to how much you're willing to break things. If you assume from the very start that things shouldn't be too unstable, you're implicitly ruling out revolution.

Where you see only economic chaos in an actualized GND-type decarbonization, some of us see potential for lasting change.

 

[Jon Carter]

You all screaming how smart and above propaganda you are when you have an aneurysm every time a Dem politician gets criticism from the left.

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Quoted for truth.

The argument that we were just bamboozled by misleading editing is maddening. I'm trying to imagine if more popular politicians had acted the way she did and said the things she did—Obama, AOC, Beto, Bernie, etc. Personally, I'd be hugely disappointed, and I guarantee many people here would be too. She was 100% out of line, the longer video doesn't change that. The editor didn't make her say these things.

 

[Deleted member 42]

what is even going on in this thread

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I made an AI

it's not working out

 

[Surfinn]

I made an AI

it's not working out

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Checks out

 

[Deleted member 3896]

what is even going on in this thread

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You posted a Project Veritas-style edit of a political exchange and people are reacting accordingly.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

lol

 

[Jecht]

You posted a Project Veritas-style edit of a political exchange and people are reacting accordingly.

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Bronson, you gunna let this kind of shit stand man? This person has been attacking the OP and throwing around conspiracy theories for pages now.

 

[Deleted member 3896]

Bronson, you gunna let this kind of shit stand man?

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Let what stand? The tactics are very, very similar. And you've also been bombing this thread with Russia references over and over in order to deflect from criticism of this edited video.

 

[Deleted member 8561]

Bronson, you gunna let this kind of shit stand man? This person has been attacking the OP and throwing around conspiracy theories for pages now.

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[Frozenprince]

You posted a Project Veritas-style edit of a political exchange and people are reacting accordingly.

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THEY'RE ON TO US COMRADES

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

Yeah. I guess giving a stage for people to say the ends justify the means when it comes to disinformation campaigns and a platform for people to guzzle down Project Veritas style edits is a sort of value.

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It's kind if hard to shame me on this because I'm already for a hostile takeover of western governmental institutions.
by progressive anti capitalist radicals.

That's gonna take some massaging of the truth to get done.

At the very least it's preferable to letting the material forces of history grind us into dust.

Project veritas is amateur hour, we can do bigger and better

 

[Jecht]

Let what stand? The tactics are very, very similar. And you've also been bombing this thread with Russia references over and over in order to deflect from criticism of this edited video.

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Difference is I know what I'm posting is parody and you're full on Alex Jonsing.

 

[Deleted member 3896]

It's kind if hard to shame me on this because I'm already for a hostile takeover of western governmental institutions.
by progressive anti capitalist radicals.

That's gonna take some massaging of the truth to get done.

At the very least it's preferable to letting the material forces of history grind us into dust.

Project veritas is amateur hour, we can do bigger and better

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Again, wow.

 

[Deleted member 14459]

I don't think I ever said anything about supporting Feinsteins framework

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ah my apologies, I assumed based on the responses and reactions to the GND kids that you were in agreement with Feinstein's foundations of rebuttal and by extension alternative framework, the support being more abstract then - yet it is unclear what outlined policy frameworks speak to your senses, thus I left it open "or something even more pragmatic"?

 

[samoyed]

Oh shit, this thread's in full on revolutionary mode now.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

So the pizza gate tier Theory here is the Russians want us to avoid global climate catastrophe and have unleashed their highly trained army of kids and video editors, how sinister

 

[Reyes]

If you want to pretend the Paris Accord "has accomplished nothing" then go right ahead. I'm not gonna be able to convince you that the first ever global cooperation to deal with climate change was a big fucking deal or something.

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Paris is good its a massive accomplishment, if countries kept to there current pledges we would be better but it still gonna be bad Paris can be better.

Paris also has languages of improvement its supposed to keep improving and countries are urged to do more, be more ambitious with the goals and do more than current pledges and even urges countries outside of UN stuff like Paris to be more ambitious with fighting climate change.

Which is why you see the massive climate protests in Europe, urging to do more for climate. EU commission has increased there budget to fight climate change from 20% to 25% or so but even more other countries can do more with there internal budget.

Germany Green Party (which is nothing like ours and is good) is looking to be the next party in power thanks to stuff like this, England own labor is looking into doing there own GND, France is doing the same, even shit governments like Poland is looking to do more with its forest and them due to protest.

Sunrise Movement is a good thing.

 

[Deleted member 1635]

It's sad some people here can't parse the difference between Request - "Hey, school shootings affect me, do something on gun control!" RESPONSE - "No, now shall we pray?" and Request - "Hey, climate change will impact my generation, sign this specific resolution." Response - "Well, I can't sign on to that because x, y, and z, but here is what I'm going to propose in the senate." Rejoinder - "No! Sign this one!"

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Yeah, the whole demand of "sign this specific one or the world is doomed and it will all be your fault" is not a reasonable approach.

 

[Deleted member 22490]

Oh shit, this thread's in full on revolutionary mode now.

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Time to sing the Internationale

 

[Deleted member 8561]

Paris is good, if countries kept to there current pledges we would be better but it still gonna be bad.

Paris also has languages of improvement its supposed to keep improving and countries are urged to do more, be more ambitious with the goals and do more than current pledges and even urges countries outside of UN stuff like Paris to be more ambitious with fighting climate change.

Which is why you see the massive climate protests in Europe, urging to do more for climate. EU commission has increased there budget to fight climate change from 20% to 25% or so but even more other countries can do more with there internal budget.

Germany Green Party (which is nothing like ours and is good) is looking to be the next party in power thanks to stuff like this, England own labor is looking into doing there own GND, France is doing the same, even shit governments like Poland is looking to do more with its forest and them due to protest.

Sunrise Movement is a good thing.

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The bolded is literally a key part of the Paris Agreement.

Current pledges are not meant to be static, they are supposed to increase as time goes on. Obviously if they don't increase then the framework has failed, but that's being way too premature.

 

[kambaybolongo]

Oh shit, this thread's in full on revolutionary mode now.

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Yeah, the whole demand of "sign this specific one or the world is doomed and it will all be your fault" is not a reasonable approach.

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yeah it's not like gun control activists demand politicians sign onto specific pieces of legislation

/s

 

[Deleted member 14459]

If I had "my way" it would be leaning way more in the direction of the GND

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Thank you. I'm done here. Enjoy the rest of the show.

 

[Deleted member 3896]

Difference is I know what I'm posting is parody and you're full on Alex Jonsing.

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It's Alex Jonesing to point out that a video has been edited to elicit a certain response and that these are tactics that are used on the right?

I mean we have other posters acknowledging that the posted video is tantamount to disinformation and they're ok with it.

 

[ThisThingIsUseful]