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Senator Dianne Feinstein is taped being snide to children asking about the Green New Deal
- Thread starter Deleted member 43084
- Start date
you'd have a point if we weren't working within the context of things i'd already said, huh
now you're just grasping at straws
i wonder if there's a gif for that
real talk:
are we just devolving into shitposting at one another because the argument's been fucking exhausting
for what it's worth I think Feinstein's a piece of shit for reasons completely separate to this
I never devolved because I only shitpost
Yes we are lol, no hard feelings
that's my secret, cap. i'm always exhausted.
ditto the no hard feelings thing, we can be grownups about this
ditto the no hard feelings thing, we can be grownups about this
Like requiring a more strict fuel economy from car manufacturers or allocating federal funding for forest preserves?
Do I get this right - political action means solely the act of engaging with politicians you know a priori will side with you? Even if this was the case, you are aware that scientists have bombarded, through their factual approach of objectivism these politicians, with reports and scientific facts that call for the immediate need for radical transformative action since the end od the 1970s? Yet we know this has had little effect on people like Feinstein...
But alas what is truly missing from current political discourse to get this radical transformative action is civic discourse, paying due respect for these senators, perhaps adding to this meeting in the centre and reaching across the isle - because truly that would be swell and is that
not how radical change has always occurred?
First of all, those we done years ago.
Secondly, fuel standards were more about getting more value out of your gas tank than anything green.
Thirdly, the Forest Preserves were created by Teddy Roosevelt almost 100 years ago. They weren't a response to Climate Change.
Feinstein is a rude asshole? Why I never....
What a weird way to defend someone...
If she doesn't care enough to vote for the future of humanity, I don't give a fuck about convincing her. She should be replaced.
What a weird way to defend someone...
Not a surprise that AOC and her staff would do such things. I mean they also attacked fellow Dem staffers as being ivy league and only there to retire to K-street.
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I'm going to ask you some questions, which I'm doing in good faith.
1) How do make allies?
2) How do you convert people to your cause?
3) What are the options available to doing the above with politicians?
Political action can mean many things, it's not limited to activism - which has a very limited scope.
That you ignored my questions about the kids with the political process confirms my hypothesis that they would be out of their depth to convert Feinstein, which is reasonable because they're kids. What they know about climate change is admirable, but that alone is not going to help save the world by itself. Which was my point, you could be the greatest scientist on the planet but if your capability to operate in politics to get what you need done you're not going to get anywhere.
Radical change is immensely difficult to be made in politics due to how the system is structured, and when it is done it's not by activists it's by politicians and their allies within the government as Trump is showing us. Which can have numerous horrible consequences when norms are ignored.
Respect, decorums and norms are your friend here. They're an option to pursue and if she doesn't bite you have nothing to lose by exploiting activist political pressure. To ignore it completely destroys Sunrise's ability to make an ally of someone who will not for the GND, because it sure won't be those Sunrise activists if AOC's bill gets up to vote within 2 years. What does AOC think of this, anyway? She ok with this?
Activism is not the end up be all of politics, never has been. That is a detriment to the activist left who refuse to accept politics revolves around more than who they protest.
To act as though any change is done though activism is ignoring the entire history of politics in the country and ignores various tools to get someone like Feinstein on your side as I explained upthread. Your argument relies on the fact that there were no realistic avenues for Sunrise to approach Feinstein, which I'm skeptical about. What's worrying is this constant refrain amongst Leftists that causing change occurs solely through attacking everyone, particularly Democrats not in their group, to berate and humiliate them into compliance - when that is only the laziest and straight forward option when they have more available if they bothered trying to make friends and allies, as if the only people worthy of that recourse is Leftists who agree with them already.
Are you happy with the results Sunrise has given you? Are you any closer to Feinstein resigning or signing the GND? What do you think was the goal of this exercise by Sunrise? Because I don't think it was to make allies of anyone, if it was they have bigger problems than Feinstein not agreeing with them.
Why would you assume otherwise? The system isn't simply going to bend to your whims, adjusting to to help is the only path to address claims change with its vast influence and manpower. Who else is going to do it?
Why are you giving up when activists like Sunrise didn't bother trying other non-hostile solutions to get her on side? Would someone doing this to you get you to be their ally in an argument? It wouldn't to me. Sunrise didn't give a shit about what Feinstein wants or how to convince her, this was a political ploy to hurt someone they considered an enemy - and you're surprised Feinestin didn't become their ally? Why would she? What happened to talking to people and finding common ground? Considering how Feinstein did believe in climate change it's not like she there weren't options to do so, she's not Mitt Romney.
Do you expect AOC and Bernie to do these type of activities to humiliate the entire Democratic party to sign on to the TGD?
I agree she was an asshole, but she wasn't the only one. Why are you giving Sunrise a pass?
That's the problem, you're not interested in hearing her side or trying to convince her because you wrote her off before this happened - and yet you're baffled why she won't join you.
Trying to convince someone through various non-hostile political means and not humiliate them in public is weird now? Somehow I doubt this occurs in Leftists circles when they have an argument or want to convert someone into an ally to their cause.
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I'm not sure where you're getting AOC or her staff had anything to do with this. The Sunrise Movement confronted Feinstein and made the video. And they're supportive of the Green New Deal, but they're not directly affiliated with AOC. To my knowledge at least.
How do we know this? Feinstein won all the big counties while her challenger won the rural ones. Maybe they are just talking about white people here.
User Banned (5 Days): Antagonizing other members; previous infractions
icthyosaur you said a bunch of stuff but none of it is relevant
if feinstein isn't convinced by the science that the earth is facing an ongoing exitinction event, that will kill billions, what is some "decorum" going to do?
she doesn't give a fuck because she is an old rich stuck up piece of shit who is going to be fucking dead when these kids have to live with the dying planet they inherited
if you run defence for these people you are just as bad
get a grip and start participating instead of tsk tsking
if feinstein isn't convinced by the science that the earth is facing an ongoing exitinction event, that will kill billions, what is some "decorum" going to do?
she doesn't give a fuck because she is an old rich stuck up piece of shit who is going to be fucking dead when these kids have to live with the dying planet they inherited
if you run defence for these people you are just as bad
get a grip and start participating instead of tsk tsking
Sunrise foundation and Justice Dems joined together for the new deal.
We need more new leadership that's got sure. I don't think we need to replace the entire party but we need a good 2-3 times new senators and congressmen who are new and pulling the party left. We also need tougher people who are willing to polarize and get their hands dirty.
Of course it's relevant, it's politics. That you categorised it as "some stuff" is alarming. We're discussing Feinstein, a politician, a political group pursuing a political cause and an effort to disgrace this politician to get her replaced. It couldn't be any more political than it already is.
I don't know why Feinstein isn't convinced because Sunrise isn't making that argument, and certainly isn't operating in good faith. They never bothered showing decorum, or this thread would not exist. It was a hit job, plain and simple and you're fine with it. How do people react to hit jobs? Not nicely, let me tell you.
I'm agreeing with you that they should have tried the science angle, maybe it'd have been more successful with an actual scientist or two rather than kids. But they didn't do that, there was never any goal to gain her an as an enemy. It was to produce a damning action to character assassinate her, regardless of how I felt about Feinstein or her opinions on climate change. Which is to bad, that would be an incredible opportunity for dialogue to build bridges.
I'm not running defence, I'm explaining how the way Sunrise did this was painfully stupid and counter productive to their own goals. They claim to want to save the planet, when they're doing shit that would make Fox News smile.
I am participating, you're ignoring the fact politics is more than protesting someone.
How did we get to a place where trying to talk to a politician in good faith was seen as bad?
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Lmao... like Obamacare is the footnote. Cap and trade is not why they lost their seats.
That actually shows the major issue with party loyalty, its straight trash.
Dont be daft, Republican base is largely rural and overwhelmed in California by the cities, same as NY.
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So the Left doesn't do this in their elections for their group's candidates?
Of course they do, but they aren't the ones holding U.S back in terms of progress.
We had a discussion about Bernie and Turner as an example of unhealthy effects loyalty has on politics (and just about everything else).
Seems a pretty trivial story on the whole to me... but then I might be a bit desensitised here as I come from a country where politicians do stuff like this to kids:
"Dialogue to build bridges," what does that even mean? All the dialogue in the world won't change Feinstein's views on this because she's not acting in good faith. Her position isn't based on reason and knowledge, or lack thereof, such that she could be persuaded if exposed to better arguments. Her position is based on an inherent conservatism and who she represente (hint, it's not these kids).
Political action has various meanings.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/political action
That scientists did that isn't a reason that they shouldn't give up trying to convince politicians like Feinstein, who did come around on parts of it at least. However, those scientists have nothing to do with Sunrise, they went operating in good faith and as far as I'm aware they didn't explore other methods before ding this. Sunrise could have bought one of these scientists with them, along with charts and evidence,
You say civil discourse as if it never gets things done in Washington when that's not true, the Democratic party would shatter in a million pieces due to infighting between the factions if that were case. Civil discourse is a tool in politics but organisations like Sunrise never had any interest in testing it or exploring it to their ends because they're more inclined to score political points than saving the planet from climate change. The issue which they're meant to be fighting for, while their methods remain limited and endanger initiates like AOC's rather than help. It's a one trick pony focused on division, not unity - while AOC is in Washington exploiting gathering allies, finding more options because someone needs to save the planet and it sure isn't them.
What do you think it means? Do you think AOC is going to pass the GNB by herself? She needs as many votes as possible in congress to get it made into law, one of them worth trying to get is Feinstein.
We don't know whether she could be persuaded because Sunrise never bothered trying, and made sure that Feinstein was never going to listen to them in good faith because they went after her like they were Project Veritas. Why don't you guys try to reach out civilly to people on your own side? I know I get defeatist in my opinions on politics but this is on a whole other level where simply existing means someone is an enemy, even when they agree with you on things. When did you give up on people, man?
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He gives a fuck. It could of been puppies telling her what's good and it still wouldn't change the fact that the ocean is gonna swallow us all up if we don't do shit about it right now. I can't believe this forum
We won't do any shit if you do this to your allies. The idea is to create alliances, not destroy them. Do you think AOC can afford one less vote for her bill? Because whatever hope Feinstein had wasn't going to to helped by this. You're so so focused on the end goal you're ignoring the middle part to create a solution to get there.
AOC needs votes on her bill to increase, not be neutral or decrease.
if your reaction to children pleading you to do something about climate change is to double down on your shitty policies because you felt they were mean to you, you're a shitty, petulant human. granted, i don't expect this to be the outcome because it would be the behavior of a child, but even defending that hypothetically is ridiculous
So if the kids had been anti-abortion activists Feinstein should have given in on the spot?
Hiding behind children for political support is an age old trick, but it is not a defence that means what they're saying must be agreed with automatically. I agree with these kids in general, but this was not the time or place to do this and they certainly weren't acting in good faith - particularly since the kids weren't alone doing this. If Sunrise had an argument in good faith they wouldn't be doing these tactics, they'd have bought a scientist and facts and argument truthfully and genuinely - not set Feinstein up for political points.
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When those kid's generation are in gov they should take Feinstein's wealth and that of her donors to fund their public policy but provide her and other elderly with a fantastic public health option.
what the fuck? in what world is anti-abortion remotely equivalent to climate change?
The specific cause was besides the point, the argument was that listening to kids purely based on them protesting is silly. I say this as someone who disagreed with Feinstein.
Take, for example, this. And unlike Sunrise they weren't being coached by an adult nearby. Why should I give them the time of day because they're kids? It's a bad defence.
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This is dumb. Climate change will kill us all and you're worried about decorum
I'm worried about decorum because that's the best chance we have to solve this by convincing the government to help us. Why do you expect the system to warp to your whims because you ask it too? When has that ever happened in the history of the US?
What do you expect to do when the government does nothing? For the activists to save us?
the specific case is entirely the point. good christ. reacting to the children who will be dealing with the fallout of the ineffective legislation you've authored over the past three decades by obstinately becoming more ineffectual because they hurt your feelings is the type or reactionary petulance you'd expect from a toddler, and honestly even presenting that as a possibility is discrediting Feinstein's ability to act like a rational adult more than anyone in this thread criticizing her.
Why are people pushing kids these young to go and be "political activists". I don't care if the cause is good, it just reeks of exploitation. The flipside of this is that kid selling chocolate milk for Trump's wall.
Kids are stupid and easily indoctrinated. These aren't even teenagers. There's not point in engaging them since they're going to parrot their parents opinions anyway.
Kids are stupid and easily indoctrinated. These aren't even teenagers. There's not point in engaging them since they're going to parrot their parents opinions anyway.
is this your idea of fun?
If you're in a building with a bomb and someone yells at you "HEY GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE THIS THING'S GONNA BLOW" are you going to be like "excuse me sir that is no way to talk to fellow human be--" BOOM
Isn't the Green New Deal still in development and being added to as it becomes more inclusive to reflect the growing coalition of support and the effect of environment and enviropolicy on everyone and everything?
This happened multiple times through out history. Activism and agitation like this hasn't lead to meaningful change and American history is a good example of that. Do you know what the fuck you're talking about?
It's not an opinion that a particular policy is the best way to combat climate change?
well, the extremely particular thing about this policy, being the time frame, is not really up for discussion. the rest, sure.
I mean "exploiting" kids is not a great look but it does have a very symbolic function of showing people whose lives you are gambling with with your political grandstanding
Appealing to emotion has its uses, but it won't work on everybody. That's not how t get through to Feinstein. Of course, this posits Sunrise was acting in good faith when it wasn't. Win with facts, do put out hit jobs on politicians and pray that they'll do what you want. This wasn't about allying with her, it was making her weak for the next election - and in a time when climate change needs to be focused on with solutions in Washington it's a waste of resources and energy which makes it that much harder for AOC to get a potential ally when she needs a vote for her bill.
No, it is not. I wish it could be avoided but it won't be due to how government is important to our survival. If you're that worried about ignoring politicians why are you bothering with Feinstein? You think the system is irrelevant to solving this crisis. If you have a solution to save us without the government I'm all ears.
What do you mean when? The government has been ignoring this issue for 50 fucking years. And now that their time is up they want to throw up their hands and say that it's too hard.
So it goes. Bellends out here chiding the kids for even taking part. Who the fuck do they think they are?
If you need receipts for when the Times activism and agitation actually contributed to change in this country then I don't need to be talking to you right now