Yep exactly. I feel like some people don't really care about accessibility options like full controller mapping etc and just want an easier game but lump it all under one word.
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Sekiro success, sales, and winning Game of the Year is a huge strike against the "difficulty equals bad" notion
- Thread starter CenturionNami
- Start date
Yep exactly. I feel like some people don't really care about accessibility options like full controller mapping etc and just want an easier game but lump it all under one word.
From Software games are designed around struggle. Finding a new bonfire/lamp/idol or opening up a new shortcut is satisfying because you had to work and scrap and claw your way through the previous area to get there. It's not just the natural progression of the game, it's a victory in itself.
Same thing goes for the level design, I'd wager even people who never got too far in Bloodborne probably know Central Yarnham like the back of their hands and could easily get around without a map. That's a function of having to replay the area over and over and actively trying to plan out optimized routes to get you to where you want to go as quickly as possible while minimizing your chances of dying. I think people are underestimating how much of the magic of those games would be lost just by simply adjusting damage values/enemy numbers and leaving everything else as is.
Same thing goes for the level design, I'd wager even people who never got too far in Bloodborne probably know Central Yarnham like the back of their hands and could easily get around without a map. That's a function of having to replay the area over and over and actively trying to plan out optimized routes to get you to where you want to go as quickly as possible while minimizing your chances of dying. I think people are underestimating how much of the magic of those games would be lost just by simply adjusting damage values/enemy numbers and leaving everything else as is.
My struggle with Sekiro (and all Souls games) is that I don't have the time to spend grinding away at something just to hopefully get past one boss. I'm sure the level of satisfaction is great due to the hard difficulty for some, but to me it's an annoyance that could result in my slender gaming time being used getting nowhere.
I've long debated with myself if I should just use the mod tools and trainers available to make my own "Easy mode", but then I know I'm not finishing the game on the creators terms, so it feels like a hollow way to experience the game.
So I've just decided those games aren't for me, and will never buy a Souls-like, but that by no means is to say the game is bad because it's difficult and not for me. I'm just not the intended market.
I've long debated with myself if I should just use the mod tools and trainers available to make my own "Easy mode", but then I know I'm not finishing the game on the creators terms, so it feels like a hollow way to experience the game.
So I've just decided those games aren't for me, and will never buy a Souls-like, but that by no means is to say the game is bad because it's difficult and not for me. I'm just not the intended market.
I don't think the accessibility threshold needs to be defined that rigidly. I'm content to just know it when I see it most of the time. In Quake, for example, there's pretty clearly been a deficient response to the accessibility concerns because we know that the previous entries in the game dealt with this in an adequate and wholly uncompromising way, so the argument that it can't or shouldn't be done has no credibility.
The entire SHMUP genre is a monument to inaccessibility if you consider difficulty to be an accessibility thing. TGM3 is one example; it's not the only example.
What if the easy mode was still hard enough that your grandma could play it and have this same grueling experience you have from normal mode?
I'm pretty sure that most of those people mean 'bad for me' and not 'game is bad'? People like me :)
As someone who got stuck/fed up (unsure which to pick) in/with Dark Souls in Anor Londo at the duo bosses, and gave up on Dark Souls 2 and Bloodborne after a couple of hours, I would be very happy with a less punishing difficulty mode in these games so I can continue to buy and play them. I love the craft that goes into them, but they're just not for me in their current form. They require way too much focus, patience, and mechanical finesse for me.
Jedi Fallen Order on hard is pretty much my upper limit in terms of recent releases; and even that felt quite punishing to me sometimes since I had to replay sections partially after dying to get back to where I was.
I find it very hard to believe that anybody who tries most of the popular game releases each year could ever say Soulsborne games are bad. Combat always feels super tight and not even a bad Soulsborne player can deny that if they die a lot it's due to their own ineptitude, I would say at least...
In my case it's a lack of patience and a lack of finesse to perform at the required level of focus to get through those encounters steadily. I'm just not having fun for long if every encounter requires a relatively high amount of focus and I have to redo sections a lot while being drained of resources if I die. Especially seeing as I like to juggle 2 or 3 new games at a time. I hardly ever put all my free time into one game and 'git gud' at any one of those.
As someone who got stuck/fed up (unsure which to pick) in/with Dark Souls in Anor Londo at the duo bosses, and gave up on Dark Souls 2 and Bloodborne after a couple of hours, I would be very happy with a less punishing difficulty mode in these games so I can continue to buy and play them. I love the craft that goes into them, but they're just not for me in their current form. They require way too much focus, patience, and mechanical finesse for me.
Jedi Fallen Order on hard is pretty much my upper limit in terms of recent releases; and even that felt quite punishing to me sometimes since I had to replay sections partially after dying to get back to where I was.
I find it very hard to believe that anybody who tries most of the popular game releases each year could ever say Soulsborne games are bad. Combat always feels super tight and not even a bad Soulsborne player can deny that if they die a lot it's due to their own ineptitude, I would say at least...
In my case it's a lack of patience and a lack of finesse to perform at the required level of focus to get through those encounters steadily. I'm just not having fun for long if every encounter requires a relatively high amount of focus and I have to redo sections a lot while being drained of resources if I die. Especially seeing as I like to juggle 2 or 3 new games at a time. I hardly ever put all my free time into one game and 'git gud' at any one of those.
If easy mode is only slightly easier than the main game, why make it?
I find the argument that "Sekiro must have single difficulty because balancing is hard" weird since the game already has difficulty settings to make the game harder. Like FromSoft has clearly shown that they can actually implement difficulty settings in their games and those didn't actually take anything away from the intended experience.
I don't know about "slightly", but if it were just "slightly," why did Bethesda make games with difficulty sliders that go from 1 to 100, why does Doom have like 7 difficulty levels? The point would be so that more people of varying skill levels could play the game and have access to the optimal grueling but completeable difficulty that makes for the best experience playing the game.
This is exactly why I said earlier in this thread in regards to folks speaking on behalf of devs. And even HAVE an actual developer in this very thread arguing the same points.
I feel it bears repeating, there has never been a case of someone having access to more options ruining someone elses experience with the game. What one individual does with their own personal experience and enjoyment of the game doesn't have a negative impact for anyone else. It's interesting to see folks argue for against less options and choice when you consider the even higher challenges NG+ provide which means From is more than capable of balancing a game of varying difficulty that scales upwards with subsequent plays.
This applies to most of their games, when you factor NG+ modes applying more difficulty over the base experience. If they can balance the game to accommodate even greater challenges with subsequent replays of the game, which is why I find it a bit ironic, especially for those that use this very same excuse for those that want an easier experience.
The From games are too hard for me. I don't have the available time and patience to conquer them. I'm not going to play them until they give us more difficulty options. From shouldn't have to give me those options though. If their creative vision includes not doing that then I will use my power as consumer to not buy their products.
Maybe from thinks the default difficulty it's the lowest they can go for the game to be the experience they want the player to have.
People should get that they are already playing the easy mode by your definition.
Obviously, but if they wanted more people to play, they should, right?
Unless adding such options would scare off people who don't feel special for playing the "hard games" anymore? I can't see anyone caring that much.
Devs should be able to make their games however they want. From's games are hard, and they are marketed as being hard. If difficult games are not for you but you buy it anyway and complain its too hard: thats on you. From dont owe you an easier mode. Saying this as someone who has not completed Sekiro.
I don't recall this much upset over Spelunky, but I guess thats indie vs AAA.
I don't recall this much upset over Spelunky, but I guess thats indie vs AAA.
Yeah quite a few Sony games recently have started adding similar options for QTEs.
I hope it didnt come across that I was trying to imply that just adding text size and colour was doing enough, I was just using them as an example as those seem to be universally accepted in many game types across many systems.
Maybe but thats not my point. My point is that arguing against multiple difficulty options in games like Sekiro doesn't make sense when the game already has difficulty options. It clearly isn't hard for them or something that will water down the default experience.
Also I don't agree the default being easy mode since it is the default mode. It is the easiest mode available but not easy mode Basically the options are normal or hard. Easy mode would be something that lowers the difficulty from the default state.
The fact that a lot of people still think that only one difficulty means everyone has the same experience is mind blowing to me. That assumes everyone has the same skills, patience etc. You can't sincerely think someone that beat a boss in 5 tries will have the same experience as someone who needed 30 tries (without even talking about people who need accessibility options). Their feelings about the game will be different.
Sekiro has at least two modes, hard and harder. I think the game is fairly accessible, although far from easy, once you understand the mechanics. FROM went so far as to include a training dummy which is a nice touch.
Truth is that Sekiro is an outlier and they've certainly had internal discussions about modular difficulty options. They've decided they don't and that should be that. They're clearly sacrificing something to force everyone engage with this particular experience.
It's not like Sekiro is an industry-standard or anything, all the other behemoths are adopting a plethora of accessibility options and many are folliwing suit to keep pace. For this company though, they make esoteric games. It's not something worth crusading against.
It's not like Sekiro is an industry-standard or anything, all the other behemoths are adopting a plethora of accessibility options and many are folliwing suit to keep pace. For this company though, they make esoteric games. It's not something worth crusading against.
Sekiro was the first game I have played in a long time that I wanted to beat, but realized I just wasn't good enough to finish.
From's games aren't for me. I'm fine with that. I don't really like grinding and I'm not good enough to not have to do it.
I was surprised to see Sekiro win GOTY though. There's a couple guys in my office who are big into From's games and they... didn't really seem to like it.
I was surprised to see Sekiro win GOTY though. There's a couple guys in my office who are big into From's games and they... didn't really seem to like it.
It doesn't even matter if it's an actual thing. It's the devs philosophy. Not mine, not that of other fans. It's their design goal. How much they are able to accomplish it has no bearing of the matter whether it exists or not.
Just because some people use trainers to beat their games doesn't suddenly mean they should implement a god mode in their game. That's what I meant whhen I said these are people with an agenda, not robots.
The community back then started to grow because of the very fact there's just one dificulty. They were fewer people, there weren't any trainers, everyone just was eager to help each other out all the time, everywhere. There is a reason for that, and it won't disappoear because you refuse to acknowledge it.
Nobody says it's the only reason. Nobody says these games get defined solely by the fact they have one difficulty. But over a decade now this has been a core part of their design philosophy, and as long they don't see a reason to change it, they won't. The end.
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From doesn't care about grandmas they care about their core fans and specific type of players. Every game has a demographic, heck most things do.
A lot of the discussion has been From games generally, which if you go back further and read my posts youll see. There are users here who were advocating for the above solution I mentioned and which would have an impact and effect on souls players. Of course this doesnt apply to sekiro, however.
Like others have mentioned, getting the game balanced around several difficulties takes a long time, I'd rather they focus on aspects of the game that make it better than to cater to people who don't want to learn to overcome the challenges they are laying out. Those games you mentioned don't hold a candle to the Souls games and the biggest reason is that they don't offer the same level of satisfaction. The satisfaction that comes from overcoming the difficulty Miyazaki has created.
Also, you act as if anyone knows the exact difficulty that would offer that level of satisfaction for them. No, most just play easy or normal so that they can beat a game quickly and get to the rest of their back log.
I kind of like how Darkest Dungeon does it. It is a difficult game but if the player wants, they can adjust settings in the options menu. Like turning off criticals, corpses disappear when enemy killed, retreats not failing etc.... to make the game easier if they desire.
I certainly don't think it detracts from the game. People are still free to play it at the default settings.
I certainly don't think it detracts from the game. People are still free to play it at the default settings.
I think From cares deeply about the sense of personal achievement and accomplishment that comes from beating something that felt impossible. That is the greatest reward for Sekiro and its an essential part of the gameplay experience that From wanted impart to players.
Personally, I consider myself to be sort of average skill set wise and I was a little anxious about playing Sekiro - a lower difficultly might have been appealing to me had it been offered. But I don't think I would have gotten nearly as much out of the experience had I gone through on lower difficulty. Beating some of those bosses was a huge high that could not be otherwise achieved if they didn't come with great difficulty that required so much effort to master.
Yeah I got that after I posted, sorry if it was condescending! I just meant to bring it back to Sekiro, because in my view it has a much worse difficulty/acessibility problem than previous games - no online being one of them.
No worries I totally understand and agree with you on sekiro!
Even the very hard shmups don't, by default, tend to have "great" difficulty "accessibility" options-- especially in their original arcade forms.
Sometimes you'll get an auto/auto-manual mode for controls (sometimes including autobomb). The difficulty options are pretty tongue-in-cheek as sometimes the "easier" difficulties in, say, Cave shooters have FASTER bullet patterns at the expense of less bullets-- which can make it harder depending on the player.
But, the M2 home versions of games in the Shottriggers line do a really nice job in providing real accessibility options-- like color control of bullets, turning off enemy shots, etc.
that's always been the case with From games.
i bet more people would struggle with Revenge of Shinobi without cheats and save states than they would Sekiro.
Difficulty isn't a bad notion, nor do I think that it was difficulty that soured some people on Sekiro. I gave up at Genichiro in the tower - it was just too infuriating in the end and I honestly couldn't see what I was getting out of it.
Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure I've had harder encounters in other FromSoft games and overcome them - Lady Maria, Ludwig and O&S all spring to mind - but somehow the design of Sekiro makes the hard-won victories feel less rewarding and the drive to overcome something, less compelling. I can't explain it. The boss rush feel, the singular approach to combat, the lack of meaningful discoveries or upgrades and the miserly attitude to consumables made me feel more like a battered and broken survivor than a victorious champion (compounded further by the Dragon Rot mechanics).
I think that's why it felt more difficult, not because it was, but because of the way it made me feel about each victory and failure.
Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure I've had harder encounters in other FromSoft games and overcome them - Lady Maria, Ludwig and O&S all spring to mind - but somehow the design of Sekiro makes the hard-won victories feel less rewarding and the drive to overcome something, less compelling. I can't explain it. The boss rush feel, the singular approach to combat, the lack of meaningful discoveries or upgrades and the miserly attitude to consumables made me feel more like a battered and broken survivor than a victorious champion (compounded further by the Dragon Rot mechanics).
I think that's why it felt more difficult, not because it was, but because of the way it made me feel about each victory and failure.
I don't get why it's so controversial to just do something like, you can only get the platinum trophy beating it on normal or harder and have an easier mode option for people.
I love From Software but I'd be okay if they added accessibility options. Life sucks, people come into the world a certain way or just get screwed over by fate. As long as the intended difficulty is an option (and available on the first playthrough) it's fine. I'm not a fan of games requiring you to finish a mostly cakewalk difficulty before unlocking how the game is "meant to be played".
Agreed. I can't pin my finger on why, but I felt no sense of relief or pride even when defeating bosses in Sekiro.
I fired it up again last night and got through 2 more mini-bosses. After the 2nd one, I just kind of turned it off. I realized I had a pretty damn hot take, but...I had more fun out of The Surge 2 than Sekiro.
It was the opposite feeling for me, and I hate to be that guy and come out of my basement and say you are playing it wrong. But it seems like if you truly struggled and somehow barely got past a boss with a sliver of life left, the victory is indeed hollow. But in Sekiro boss fights are all or nothing. Either you completely downloaded the boss to the point where the fight ends in seconds or you die instantly. I know this requires patience to study the boss, but this game is NOT meant to be played like a souls game. Its basically Parappa the Rapper with exploration.
Sekiro stands apart from other souls game in that from the get go you are fully capable of taking down the strongest of foes according to story and lore, while in souls games you start off as a puny being, so hollow victory should not be felt by the player in sekiro, unless the game hasn't clicked for them of course. Every battle of Sekiro should be fought like a battering ram, and not with timed dodges ala souls, and after defeating a boss you should feel invincible. There is no soul farming to upgrade your attack damage, no technique or hidden mechanic, or popping up your shield and playing mexican standoff with boss. Its just your sword that can either hit or block. Its basically a rhythm game.
Since you stopped at Genichiro, which I considered to be early game, I understand why this idea hasn't popped up.
I was struggling myself on my first playthrough, even I couldn't get pass madam butterfly for days. Then my friend told me to stop playing it like a souls game and voila, every boss fell like butter even the infamous final boss.
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Because the dev doesn't care about platinum trophies but about the experience they want to deliver.
Ah, I never got that invincible feeling, sadly. Especially when I looked at all my missing money and all my Dragon Rot-infested NPCs which stood as a testament to my huge number of failed attempts. And that's the thing Dragon Rot isn't a big deal mechanically, but psychologically, it felt like a discouragement to try and fail and try again.
Like I say, very hard to explain, because others get a totally different feeling. It's why I'm not down on the game, it's just has a certain element which has proved slightly more divisive overall than even Souls games were.
How was The Surge 2? It's still sitting in my awkwardly long backlog list.
but you quit no?
how can you get that feeling when you quit?
i have never beaten a souls game before until i beat sekiro.
sekiro triggered my love for Souls games, even if it is so different to the other ones
Well you are absolutely right. Sekiro goes a little out of its way to mentally weaken the players, which I thought was rather funny when I consider this to be the easiest of all the souls games mechanically. You shouldn't blunt force through the boss by using up items and heals (Which I never used tbh apart from the purple paper on certain gimmick boss), never waiver from your focus of beating out your boss using your good ole fashioned samurai blade. On my first run I didn't care about dragon rot or sidequests or money or items etc.... Since I didn't play it like souls where items, rings, armor, buffs, souls, weapon damage and tons of other nuances that goes into the best approach to fighting a boss. Ironic how Miyazaki simplified everything and realized players would steam roll through it, so cranked up the psychological part of it.
Playing his games, you always have to remember that losing is progress in it off itself. Every loss against a boss is getting you closer to downloading him/her. It just a matter of patience.
Difficulty but fair is always better than difficulty because the systems in the game are broken.
I've been arguing the same point for years, but the GMTK on Celeste (not the GTMK on Dark Souls) covers the argument well and makes a pretty airtight case that developers should be able to make the experiences they want, that players should be able to play games how they want, and that these are not mutually exclusive things. And I've yet to see a good counter-argument to it.
These conversations often spiral off into stuff like "What Kind of Difficulty Is Noble And Right" or "Books and Film Are Like This And Not That", which is unfortunate.
These conversations often spiral off into stuff like "What Kind of Difficulty Is Noble And Right" or "Books and Film Are Like This And Not That", which is unfortunate.
Sekiro is one of those games that tricks you into thinking that it's harder than it is. I'm replaying it right now and many of the early game abilities can completely nullify a boss's attack (including the red kanji ones). For example, there are these relatively difficult mini-bosses that go by Snake Eyes, and you can use Ichimonji to interrupt both their red kanji grab and any part of their standard combo where they take longer than usual to wind up. The flame vent attachment can also interrupt many bosses and repeatedly setting them on fire can drain health and stamina very quickly.
As for The Surge 2, I though the parry mechanic was implemented poorly. And it was really only necessary for that one three-phase boss. I defeated the final boss in one try by just hitting them mindlessly without any real care to parrying or dodging.
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This basically sums up my experience with the game. Dark Souls and Bloodborne are some of my favorite games ever, including Bloodborne's crushing DLC, but Sekiro just felt almost aggressively unpleasant to me, like there was no fun nor joy at the end of my victories and you kind of put into words what I hadn't been able to.
I'd always bitched about the actual levels sometimes feeling light, and too easy, on combat between the punishing-as-fuck mini-bosses littered at every turn at one point and you using the term "boss rush feel" is right on the money for my experience. I remember beating Genichiro and actively thinking "fuck, I wonder how impossible the next thing is going to be, great..." instead of feeling excited to explore the next area, and quite frankly looking back on the game, I feel like I should've stopped there. I'm not a throw-my-controller-hate-rage type of player at all but this game just turned me into a bitter asshole for the remainder of it afterwards. The only positive memory I have of the rest of the game was that the final area is beautiful and feels fresh for From so I'm glad I got to see that.
I guess that's all maybe a bit off-topic but yeah...
Well, I played The Surge (the first one obviously I guess) right before Sekiro and really enjoyed my time with it and still think about it quite often. It's probably massive blasphemy but I preferred its combat with the dismemberments to get armor pieces and shit over Sekiro.